Is Jesus the Saviour of the whole World?

[PinSeeker]

Only possible ? Isnt that selling Jesus work short ? I believe it [He]actually saved a whole world of elect people.

Sure. You either misunderstood or didn’t quite fully understand what I was saying. The Bible never speaks of “a world of elect people“… and never says or insinuates that the world has only “elect people” in it. So, ‘possible’ in the sense that if God’s plan was to give this salvific grace to everyone, He could certainly and justly have done that, because Jesus’s work on the cross was sufficient to cover all… even infinitely so. But universal salvation was never God’s plan, even from all eternity. As Paul said, “Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show His wrath and to make known His power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of His glory for vessels of mercy, which He has prepared beforehand for glory ~ even us whom He has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?” (Romans 9:21-24)

Grace and peace to you.

 

[brightfame52]

The Bible never speaks of “a world of elect people“

Its still true

and never says or insinuates that the world has only “elect people” in it.

Of course not, the non elect goats are in it

So, ‘possible’ in the sense that if God’s plan was to give this salvific grace to everyone, He could certainly and justly have done that, because Jesus’s work on the cross was sufficient to cover all… even infinitely so.

But its not Gods plan and so His blood work is sufficient for the elect, its infinite value was purposed only for the elect.

But universal salvation was never God’s plan, even from all eternity.

Exactly stick with that

. As Paul said, “Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show His wrath and to make known His power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of His glory for vessels of mercy, which He has prepared beforehand for glory ~ even us whom He has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?” (Romans 9:21-24)

Exactly !

 

[PinSeeker]

Its still true

It’s not. …“a world of elect people “… has no real meaning.

Of course not, the non elect goats are in it

LOL! Which means it’s not “a world of elect people.” <smile> I mean if all you mean by “a world of elect people” is that there are many of the elect living among the non-elect in this world ~ like wheat living among tares ~ then okay, sure, but putting it as you are seems kind of a silly way to put it. But okay, yeah, it seems we agree regarding universalism.

Goodness gracious. <smile>

…His blood work is sufficient for the elect, its infinite value was purposed only for the elect.

Right. Yeah, I’ll… “stick with that.” As if I wasn’t there long before now… <smile>

Grace and peace to you.

 

[brightfame52]

It’s not. …“a world of elect people “… has no real meaning.

Sure it does, its the only biblical meaning

LOL! Which means it’s not “a world of elect people.”

The whole world of 1 Jn 2:2 is, only the elect have Christ as their propitiation

 

[Beebster]

“Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show His wrath and to make known His power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of His glory for vessels of mercy, which He has prepared beforehand for glory ~ even us whom He has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?” (Romans 9:21-24)

Awesome scripture.
And though it does not disprove God's plan to save the whole world, it does witness to the fact that man does not have a free wiil to seek his own salvation.

Peace

 

[PinSeeker]

Sure it does, its the only biblical meaning

<chuckles>

The whole world of 1 Jn 2:2 is, only the elect have Christ as their propitiation

BF52, here’s the verse you’re referring to:

“He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.”

No, He’s the propitiation for the sins of the whole world ~ all of Creation, actually ~ but the elect, a subset of “the whole world,” are the only ones who have received God’s saving mercy and compassion and thus are the only ones for whom Christ’s atonement has been made effectual. Wow.

Awesome scripture.
And though it does not disprove God's plan to save the whole world…

But it does. He created some for noble use ~ His elect ~ and some… all others… for common use. Paul even spells out why He did that.

, it does witness to the fact that man does not have a free wiil to seek his own salvation.

It does not. Paul… really God through Paul… never says anything about man’s ability or inability to choose or make choices, but merely that being one of God’s elect doesn’t depend on it, but on God’s having mercy and compassion Romans 9:14-18, esp. verse 16. in fact, the strong implication is that man does make a choice… but again, his being one of God’s elect “depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.”

Grace and peace to you both.

 

[Beebster]

But it does.

No sir. God's plan is to save all and it is through Christ that he will accomplish that task.

He created some for noble use ~ His elect ~ and some… all others… for common use. Paul even spells out why He did that.

Well, yes which in and of itself shows us that we have no free will.

The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, EVEN THE WICKED for the day of evil. (Pro 16:4)

Look again at Romans 9:21-24

“Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?

Who is the creator? Are we creating our own destiny or has God a already preordained it? And if so our will is no match for his. Yes we have a will but it is not free from causality. And if it is not free from causality then it is certainly not FREE.

What if God, desiring to show His wrath and to make known His power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,

So why does God make vessels of wrath prepared for destruction (which by the way is all of us)?

in order to make known the riches of His glory for vessels of mercy (that's Christ - the Body of Christ - his elect), which He has prepared beforehand for glory ~

Not vessels of "hey I'm saved and too bad for you," but for vessels of mercy

even us (Elect) whom He has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?”

Believe it or not, the Elect have a purpose.

It does not.
Paul… really God through Paul… never says anything about man’s ability or inability to choose or make choices, but merely that being one of God’s elect doesn’t depend on it, but on God’s having mercy and compassion Romans 9:14-18, esp. verse 16. in fact, the strong implication is that man does make a choice… but again, his being one of God’s elect “depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.”

Grace and peace to you both.

Right. So if I'm understanding you correctly, it is all dependant upon God. And if so "free will" is a sham.
Now before we get too deep into free will let me state - we certainly have the God given ability to choose but what I am saying is that every choice you make is caused. You do not make a single choice that does not have a cause and I believe that force, that cause is from God.

Peace.

 

[brightfame52]

No, He’s the propitiation for the sins of the whole world ~ all of Creation, actually ~ but the elect, a subset of “the whole world,” are the only ones who have received God’s saving mercy and compassion and thus are the only ones for whom Christ’s atonement has been made effectual. Wow.

This is a false gospel friend. The whole world of 1 Jn 2:2 is the elect only from all nations.

I perceive you have been deceived by the false gospel of fullerism:

Calvinism + Arminianism = Fullerism

A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump. Galatians 5:9

www.oldschoolbaptist.org

 

[PinSeeker]

No sir.

Yes sir.

God's plan is to save all and it is through Christ that he will accomplish that task.

God’s heart is that all would be saved and would come to knowledge of the truth. His plan, is to save some, a remnant, His elect, unto Himself, for His own glory. If His plan were to save all, then all would be saved, because His purposes never fail (Job 42:2); His Word never returns to him void, but always accomplishes the purpose for which it is sent (Isaiah 55:8-9).

Well, yes which in and of itself shows us that we have no free will.

I’m glad you agree, but it does not “show we have no free will.” Rather it shows that unless we are reborn of the Holy Spirit we will always, ultimately, use our free will wrongly.

Yes we have a will but it is not free from causality.

The cause of our will is our heart, who we are… and whose… or Whose… we are, who or Who we are of.

And if it is not free from causality then it is certainly not FREE.

Okay Beebster, so what is the cause? I already answered that question immediately above.

So why does God make vessels of wrath prepared for destruction…

Paul answers that question for us…

which by the way is all of us)

If we were all “prepared for destruction,” which is synonymous with “vessels for common use,” then there would be no one saved. So no, it’s not “all of us.” Now, we are all deserving of this destruction because of the natural state of our heart, our deadness in sin, and thus children of wrath, but God gives mercy to some, who, by His grace, are saved… born again by and of the Spirit.

Not vessels of "hey I'm saved and too bad for you," but for vessels of mercy

Sure. Not sure why you feel compelled to tell me that, but sure.

Believe it or not, the Elect have a purpose.

No! Really? LOL! I’m… kidding… <chuckles>

I think what you mean to say is that God has a purpose in having an elect people (and a purpose in having folks that are not among His elect), so yes, and it’s all according to the purpose of God ~ which is what Paul is saying ther in Romans 9:22-24 ~ and if so, then yes I agree.

So if I'm understanding you correctly, it is all dependant upon God.

Yeah I don’t think you are. <smile>

And if so "free will" is a sham.

God doesn’t “free will” for us, Beebster. I’ll say this… that there is a sense, a certain sense, in which we never have free will; our will, depending on whose or Whose we are, is either to do the will of our father the devil or… if we are born again of the Spirit of God, to do the will of our Father Who is in heaven. This is essentially one of the things Jesus is saying in John 6, 8, and 10.

…every choice you make is caused.

Sure it is. Sure. Again, I’m not sure why you feel compelled to tell me that, but sure. So, caused by what? Again… see above.

I’ll say it again… the will always, freely, follows the heart.

You do not make a single choice that does not have a cause and I believe that force, that cause is from God.

Okay, fair enough. Disagree. <smile> If you choose to sin, Beebster, which we all do from time to time at least, do you think God caused you to sin? That God Himself is the author of sin? If you do, then, uhh… yikes.

This is a false gospel friend. The whole world of 1 Jn 2:2 is the elect only from all nations.

No, and no… John clearly distinguishes in that one verse between the world and the people of God, His elect. He does that throughout his gospel and all three of his epistles.

I perceive you have been deceived by the false gospel of fullerism:

<chuckles>. Ah yes, you perceive… <smile> I mean the Gospel is the Gospel, BF, and there is no disagreement among Christians on that. Now there is disagreement, for sure, on some doctrinal details, for sure, and some very important, but none of those things constitute a false gospel.

Fullerism… I identify more with John Calvin and Augustine before him. Fuller was pretty much of the same vein but believed Calvin to be not strong on missiology, but I think that was a misperception on his part.

Now, if you’re a Arminian, then… uh-oh. <smile>

Grace and peace to you both.

 

[Beebster]

God’s heart is that all would be saved and would come to knowledge of the truth.

And do you really think that if something is in God's heart, it won't happen?

His plan, is to save some, a remnant, His elect, unto Himself, for His own glory.

Yes, that is the first resurrection; that is eonian life. The Elect will live through that 1000 year reign. Remember these are to be kings and priests. They must reign over and minister to someone right?
That is where his glory comes in.

If His plan were to save all, then all would be saved, because His purposes never fail (Job 42:2);

All will be saved, just not in the first resurrection. The rest will be saved through the resurrection of damnation.

And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life (vessels of mercy - first resurrection - the Elect); and they that have done evil (vessels of wrath), unto the resurrection of damnation. (Jhn 5:29)

Yes they are damned but they will certainly be resurrected.

Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: (Jhn 11:25)

His Word never returns to him void, but always accomplishes the purpose for which it is sent (Isaiah 55:8-9).

That is absolutely right.

22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I AM GOD, and there is none else.
23 I have SWORN by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and SHALL NOT RETURN, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. (Isaiah 45:22-23)

Is your will in line with the Father's will?

I’m glad you agree, but it does not “show we have no free will.” Rather it shows that unless we are reborn of the Holy Spirit we will always, ultimately, use our free will wrongly.

This statement is just false. Many folks use their will in wonderful ways and don't even know what the Holy Spirit is let alone what being reborn of it entails. The apostles did many great works and they weren't even converted until Pentecost.

The cause of our will is our heart, who we are… and whose… or Whose… we are, who or Who we are of.
Okay Beebster, so what is the cause? I already answered that question immediately above.

And God created us with that weak, wicked heart right?

For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:
All these evil things come from within, and defile the man. (Mark 7:21-23)

So yes, our heart certainly causes us to sin, especially on a spiritual level.
But, let's not forget about temptation.

The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? (Jer 17:9)

God knows it and God is the only one that can heal it.

If we were all “prepared for destruction,” which is synonymous with “vessels for common use,” then there would be no one saved. So no, it’s not “all of us.”

Not so.
Paul was destroyed.
Christ was destroyed.
And you must be as well.

Now, we are all deserving of this destruction because of the natural state of our heart, our deadness in sin, and thus children of wrath, but God gives mercy to some, who, by His grace, are saved… born again by and of the Spirit.

It is scriptural fact that you must be destroyed in order to be saved.

I think what you mean to say is that God has a purpose in having an elect people (and a purpose in having folks that are not among His elect), so yes, and it’s all according to the purpose of God ~ which is what Paul is saying ther in Romans 9:22-24 ~ and if so, then yes I agree.

Well no, that's not what I meant to say. Yes God has a purpose and that purpose is create mankind in his image, but I digress.
When I say his Elect have a purpose I'm being more specific. That purpose is to judge and to teach righteousness.

God doesn’t “free will” for us, Beebster. I’ll say this… that there is a sense, a certain sense, in which we never have free will; our will, depending on whose or Whose we are, is either to do the will of our father the devil or… if we are born again of the Spirit of God, to do the will of our Father Who is in heaven. This is essentially one of the things Jesus is saying in John 6, 8, and 10.

Ok, and are you doing the will of your Father?

For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
Who WILL have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. (1 Timothy 2:3-4)

Is your will in line with God the Father's will?

Or is your will in line with "our father the devil" by stating "God our Saviour; Who WON'T have all men to be saved and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. "

Will all men come unto the knowledge of the truth?

Does your Father say they will?
Mine does:

With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world WILL learn righteousness. (Isaiah 26:9)

I’ll say it again… the will always, freely, follows the heart.

This is poorly stated. You make it sound as if people do not struggle with the choices they make.
Let me ask you though, does the will freely accept God?

Okay, fair enough. Disagree. <smile> If you choose to sin, Beebster, which we all do from time to time at least, do you think God caused you to sin? That God Himself is the author of sin? If you do, then, uhh… yikes.

From an absolute point of view, God is the cause of EVERYTHING!

However from a relative point of view, NO!

But remember, God is the Father of all spirits and that includes Satan.

Satan tempts but God certainly directs us there and for good reason.

 

[brightfame52]

No, and no… John clearly distinguishes in that one verse between the world and the people of God, His elect. He does that throughout his gospel and all three of his epistles.

Sorry you are promoting a false gospel

<chuckles>. Ah yes, you perceive… <smile> I mean the Gospel is the Gospel, BF, and there is no disagreement among Christians on that. Now there is disagreement, for sure, on some doctrinal details, for sure, and some very important, but none of those things constitute a false gospel.

Fullerism… I identify more with John Calvin and Augustine before him. Fuller was pretty much of the same vein but believed Calvin to be not strong on missiology, but I think that was a misperception on his part.

Now, if you’re a Arminian, then… uh-oh. <smile>

You identify with fullerism a false gospel

 

[PinSeeker]

And do you really think that if something is in God's heart, it won't happen?

You misunderstand, I think, what I mean by that. We know from Scripture that He desires that all would come to knowledge of the truth and be saved. But just as we do not act on some of our desires for very good reasons from time to time, so it is with God in this case.

Yes, that is the first resurrection…

Not sure why you suddenly jumped to the “first resurrection” of Revelation 20, but okay, yes, individually, our being born again and raised in Christ and seated with Him in the heavenly places, as Paul says in Ephesians 2, is our coming to share in the first resurrection and reigning with Him in the Holy Spirit, and this is happening progressively through God’s “millennium,” which we are in the midst of now, sure.

…that is eonian life. The Elect will live through that 1000 year reign. Remember these are to be kings and priests. They must reign over and minister to someone right?
That is where his glory comes in.

Hmmmmm… <smile> Sounding very dispensational, rather than covenantal, here; God is a covenant God…

All will be saved, just not in the first resurrection.

Hmmmm… See above. Not all will be saved… unless you are speaking of God’s Israel, in the sense of what Paul says in Romans 11:25-26); “all of Israel will be saved.” All those called by God will ultimately be glorified (Romans 8:30).

The rest will be saved through the resurrection of damnation.

They will be resurrected with us in the second resurrection, but to the resurrection of judgment rather than the resurrection of life (John 5:28-29), so, not saved from but sentenced to, in the final Judgment, executed by Jesus, the second death of Revelation 20 (which is certainly an absolute death, but not a cessation of existence).

Yes they are damned but they will certainly be resurrected.

Yes, but not by any stretch of the imagination saved.

Continued below...

 

[PinSeeker]

Is your will in line with the Father's will?

Well, to be very succinct, yes… and no. I certainly want it to be, and through the Spirit’s work in me I trust it is becoming more and more so. But yet… though I don’t go on doing so willingly, I still sin. So again, yes and no. But one day there will be no “no.” For now, though… “Nevertheless not my will but yours be done…” and ”Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven”…

This statement is just false.

In… your humble, erstwhile opinion… <smile> Yeah I mean okay, fair enough; we disagree. Although…

Many folks use their will in wonderful ways

Yes, surely, but this is not what I was talking about, Beebster. In that quote of mine, I did say ‘ultimately.’ I was not talking about every little thing we do in this life. And actually, there is a sense in which we all, regardless whether we are saved or not, always do God’s will…. God uses all kinds of means to accomplish His purposes… and in the case of sin, He uses sin sinlessly. But as Paul says, “God works all things together for the good of those who love Him and are called according to His purpose” (Romans 8:28).

and don't even know what the Holy Spirit is let alone what being reborn of it entails.

Hmmmm… Well, I would say that really, none of us do completely, we just know we have been, that it is a reality, and that He is at work in us… bringing the good work in us begin by God to completion at the day of Christ (Philippians 1:6).

The apostles did many great works and they weren't even converted until Pentecost.

Disagree. The apostles were called by God also and chose Him (chose Christ Jesus) because Christ Jesus chose them (John 15:16) and appointed them that they should go and bear fruit and that their fruit should abide, which is intimately similar to what Paul says of all of us born-again folks in Ephesians 2:4-10.

And God created us with that weak, wicked heart right?

We were born sinful, just like king David says of himself in Psalm 51. This is the state Adam fell into in Genesis 3, and… well, “sin came into the world through one man… “ (Adam) “…and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned…” (Romans 5:12). Did God create us this way? Well, in a certain sense, yes, but really it is to be attributed to Adam… and through Adam to ourselves. But God gave us life, and then promised to redeem us and deliver us from sin to Himself. And He did this by giving Himself, in the Person of Jesus, God’s Christ, His Son. And this is the Gospel, Beebster.

So yes, our heart certainly causes us to sin, especially on a spiritual level.

Absolutely.

But, let's not forget about temptation.

Yeah, no; let’s not. Right. <smile> But temptation is not sin itself ~ Jesus was tempted in every way we are, yet remained sinless, yeah? ~ but can certainly lead to sin, so yes, we pray that God would not lead us into temptation. Now, God does not tempt; if it were God tempting, that would mean He Himself is capable of and condones sin, neither of which is the case. But He does test our faith, just as He did Abraham’s, but this is for our good, as He is making us mature in Christ (Romans 8:28; James 1).

God knows it and God is the only one that can heal it.

Absolutely.

Paul was destroyed. Christ was destroyed.
And you must be as well. It is scriptural fact that you must be destroyed in order to be saved.

You know, I’m not sure we understand this in exactly the same way… <smile> …particularly what this destruction really is…but yes, I agree. <smile>

Yes God has a purpose and that purpose is create mankind in his image, but I digress.

Well sure, but we are all created in His image… What He promises to do is redeem… not only His elect but all of creation. He is “making all things new” (Revelation 21:5)… restorating it to its original “very good” (Genesis 1) state. And this is for His own glory. This is His purpose, His eternal decree. But the unbelieving and unrepentant… those not among His elect… <shudder>

When I say his Elect have a purpose I'm being more specific. That purpose is to judge and to teach righteousness.

Hmmm… well… we are created for good works, yes… Ephesians 2:10… that in this life we are called to walk in them, for His glory… This is His purpose in our being born again, yes…

Will all men come unto the knowledge of the truth?

Not all, unfortunately, no, in this life.

Does your Father say they will?

Only the ones in this life on whom He has mercy, compassion, His elect, whom he chose before the foundation of the world to be conformed to image of His Son. As Jesus says in Matthew 7:13-14, “…the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.” Or… read Joel 2:32… “And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be those who escape, as the LORD has said, and among the survivors shall be those whom the LORD calls.” Our calling on the name of the Lord depends on His first calling us. This verse is intimately similar to 1 John 4:19… “we love because He first loved us.”

Mine does…

No He doesn’t… <smile>

Isaiah 26:9….

This is a plea… a yearning on the part of Isaiah… and all of God’s people… for God’s righteousness to fill the earth, and as such will be the sure result of what Isaiah speaks of just a few verses earlier ~ in Isaiah 25:7-8 and following… “He will swallow up on this mountain the covering that is cast over all peoples, the veil that is spread over all nations… He will swallow up death forever; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from all faces, and the reproach of His people He will take away from all the earth, for the LORD has spoken.” This will be in the final Judgment, the result being the departing of the wicked, those on Jesus’s left (Matthew 25:41-46) into eternal punishment, which is the “second death” of Revelation 20. And this will be when righteousness truly fills the earth.

This is poorly stated.

<chuckles>

You make it sound as if people do not struggle with the choices they make.

Don’t mean to at all. Yeah the struggle is real, for sure. I’m just saying that our heart always determines our choices… and really saying nothing about the struggles we may or may not have in making those choices.

Let me ask you though…

Seems to me you’re not really asking, per se… <smile>

…does the will freely accept God?

Yes, if… <smile>. Otherwise, it will freely accept… otherwise.

From an absolute point of view, God is the cause of EVERYTHING!

Somehow He is behind everything, yes.

However from a relative point of view, NO!

I mean, if I understand you correctly, here, I agree.

But remember, God is the Father of all spirits and that includes Satan.

Hmmm… the origin of Satan, and evil itself… I say we can’t really know the answer to that. That’s not to say we shouldn’t discuss it, but really all we can say in the end is, it is what it is, and God has, um, a good reason that it exists… and is, for now. A higher reason, really, that we cannot… attain to… in David’s words in Psalm 139.

Satan tempts but God certainly directs us there and for good reason.

Sure. As I said above.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

Sorry you are promoting a false gospel

Opinions are like noses; everybody has one... <smile> ...or a million... or so...

You identify with fullerism a false gospel

Maybe to some degree. but Fuller said some good things... Like I said, more John Calvin, and Augustine before him ~ as opposed to Jacobus Arminius (in Calvin's day), and Pelagius before him (in Augustine's day).

Grace and peace to you.

 

[brightfame52]

Maybe to some degree.

And thats what snares you, a little leaven leavens the whole

 

[Button]

Is Jesus the Savior of the whole world?

Jesus is the law of Moses.​

 

[PinSeeker]

And thats what snares you, a little leaven leavens the whole

<chuckles>. It can, yes… sin can beget yet more sin. And, too, even in committing one little sin, it is as if, as Jesus said, one has broken the entire law. But now we’re talking about something very different. Or maybe there’s something else going on here… Interesting…

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Beebster]

You misunderstand, I think, what I mean by that. We know from Scripture that He desires that all would come to knowledge of the truth and be saved. But just as we do not act on some of our desires for very good reasons from time to time, so it is with God in this case.

God is not man.

Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. (Rom 1:22-23)

When God desires something he gets it:

But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth. (Job 23:13)

Not sure why you suddenly jumped to the “first resurrection” of Revelation 20, but okay, yes, individually, our being born again and raised in Christ and seated with Him in the heavenly places, as Paul says in Ephesians 2, is our coming to share in the first resurrection and reigning with Him in the Holy Spirit, and this is happening progressively through God’s “millennium,” which we are in the midst of now, sure.

I won't say much on this now other than I don't think we are yet in that millennium. I think this conversation may take us there eventually but I brought up the first resurrection to show that there is a reward for God's Elect.

Hmmmmm… <smile> Sounding very dispensational, rather than covenantal, here; God is a covenant God…

Well, God is the God of the eons so....(.Rom 6:26, 1 Tit 1:17, Heb 1:8)

Please elaborate though, I'd like to see where you are going with this.

Hmmmm… See above. Not all will be saved… unless you are speaking of God’s Israel, in the sense of what Paul says in Romans 11:25-26); “all of Israel will be saved.” All those called by God will ultimately be glorified (Romans 8:30).

Israel, physical jews, certainly will be saved in due time but no, I'm saying every last person who ever lived, lives now, or lives in the future will be saved and it is God the Father, Christ and his Elect who will judge, and save them.

Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? (1Co 6:2)

They will be resurrected with us in the second resurrection,

If by "us" you mean God's Elect then no.
I noticed you italicized "second" because you know there is no such thing as second resurrection.
I think you're confusing resurrection with people being roused from their graves.

And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell (hades) delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. (Rev 20:12-13)

These people have not yet been resurrected. They are still dead.

but to the resurrection of judgment rather than the resurrection of life (John 5:28-29),

There is only one resurrection and that is Jesus Christ

so, not saved from but sentenced to, in the final Judgment, executed by Jesus, the second death of Revelation 20 (which is certainly an absolute death, but not a cessation of existence).

Jesus Christ is a judge and he is a Saviour; he is the Resurrection.

It is impossible to put someone into absolute death when death will be abolished.

The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. (1Co 15:26)

When death is destroyed, resurrection shall be complete..

 

[Beebster]

Well, to be very succinct, yes… and no. I certainly want it to be, and through the Spirit’s work in me I trust it is becoming more and more so. But yet… though I don’t go on doing so willingly, I still sin. So again, yes and no. But one day there will be no “no.” For now, though… “Nevertheless not my will but yours be done…” and ”Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven”…

I agree with most of what you say here, but I find it odd that you quote Christ. You make it sound as though you, and Jesus, could thwart God's will.
Or perhaps I'm simply misunderstanding you.

In… your humble, erstwhile opinion… <smile> Yeah I mean okay, fair enough; we disagree. Although…

My apologies, sometimes I just get right to the point. I really don't mean to come across harshly; at least not when the conversation is decent.

Yes, surely, but this is not what I was talking about, Beebster. In that quote of mine, I did say ‘ultimately.’

I know that, and I certainly did catch that but I wanted to stress my point.

I was not talking about every little thing we do in this life.

No and neither was I, which is what I wanted to stress. There are people that do little great things and some that do marvelous things and yet do not know Christ. We must realize that it is still God working through them, which I think we agree on from what you say here:

And actually, there is a sense in which we all, regardless whether we are saved or not, always do God’s will…. God uses all kinds of means to accomplish His purposes… and in the case of sin, He uses sin sinlessly. But as Paul says, “God works all things together for the good of those who love Him and are called according to His purpose” (Romans 8:28).

He sure does.

Hmmmm… Well, I would say that really, none of us do completely, we just know we have been, that it is a reality, and that He is at work in us… bringing the good work in us begin by God to completion at the day of Christ (Philippians 1:6).

Yes, it is God working in us, not our supposed free will, that brings us to the truth.

Disagree. The apostles were called by God also and chose Him (chose Christ Jesus) because Christ Jesus chose them (John 15:16) and appointed them that they should go and bear fruit and that their fruit should abide, which is intimately similar to what Paul says of all of us born-again folks in Ephesians 2:4-10.

When do you think they were converted?

We were born sinful, just like king David says of himself in Psalm 51. This is the state Adam fell into in Genesis 3, and… well, “sin came into the world through one man… “ (Adam) “…and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned…” (Romans 5:12). Did God create us this way? Well, in a certain sense, yes, but really it is to be attributed to Adam… and through Adam to ourselves. But God gave us life, and then promised to redeem us and deliver us from sin to Himself. And He did this by giving Himself, in the Person of Jesus, God’s Christ, His Son. And this is the Gospel, Beebster.

Adam was created to sin. I don't have time to go into this at the moment, but we surely can discuss it. (so many topics here)
I will try to get to the rest of your post when I can.

I do appreciate the conversation.

Peace.

 

[brightfame52]

But now we’re talking about something very different. Or maybe there’s something else going on here… Interesting…

You believe the lie of fullerism