Can One Be Christian and Not Believe In The Trinity?

[Adventageous]

When Angels appeared they were mistaken as men at first.

What verse, text or passage are you specifically referring to? Gen. 18:3; Luke 24:4? If not, please provide the texts.

The created unfallen angelic beings of heaven, are from that world of light, and know how to use light to their purposes to carry out God's will. They are able to be 'not seen' (which utilizes light, such as a cloaking mechanism does for modern day tech, which exists within military, and other applicable uses).

Some simple examples

&c.

Angels, like God, are able to veil their glory (light), and to appear without wings, or to not appear at all, even as Jesus "vanished" right in front of the disciples.

Modern day weapons are weapons of light, that satan (once from the 3rd Heaven) knows how to make, use, such as lasers, rail guns, nuclear, holograms, projections, cloaking, &c.

So, that they can appear to look like men to men, is all over the scripture and not in contest. That does not negate the texts which state that they are of a differing nature (heavenly, celestial) than mankind's nature and have wings as well.

 

[Adventageous]

From my perspective there is no Trio, only the One God, Yahweh, God the Father.

My last comment on this subject to you; a citation, since it is plain you will not be convinced by the texts and material provided.

“If men reject the testimony of the inspired Scriptures concerning the deity of Christ, it is in vain to argue the point with them; for no argument, however conclusive, could convince them. “The natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” 1 Corinthians 2:14. None who hold this error can have a true conception of the character or the mission of Christ, or of the great plan of God for man’s redemption” - GC 524.2 (1911 ed.) - The Great Controversy​

Therefore, I leave you to your choice.

 

[GodsGrace]

It's a reference based on this 'movie' called "Forrest Gump" in which a statement is made ""My mama always said life was like a box of chocolates. You never know what you're gonna get." In a separate scene, the character's mother says: "Life is a box of chocolates, Forrest. You never know what you're gonna get.”"

LOL
Thanks A....
But I think that when I state that I'm of the Christian RELIGION,,,
everyone should know what they're "going to get"!

IOW,, it really does need to mean something.

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings again GodsGrace,

I am sorry Trevor,,,
but your posts are much too long and I find it difficult to reply to them, as I've already stated other times.

My Post was not addressed directly to you and I tried to abbreviate my reply to Adventageous's two very long and detailed Posts while at the same time covering most of the ground.

If you want to say that the US in Genesis 1:26.... LET US MAKE MAN is referring to the angels....
Isn't that equivalent to giving to angels the power to create?
LET US MAKE MAN is an inclusive statement. It means angels can also create.
And we know that ONLY God can create.

My understanding and definition of the word Elohim is that the One God, Yahweh, God the Father delights to share His Work and Word and Wisdom with others, including the Angels -Divine Spirit Creatures, the Judges - humans and especially our Lord Jesus Christ, a human, the Son of God by birth, character and resurrection. In the case of the Angels, He would grant them all the power and wisdom necessary to achieve His Purpose. Thus it is Yahweh who is the Creator, but also in and through the Angels, where necessary or where He chooses, hence Genesis 1:1 literally Mighty Ones, He Created and specifically Genesis 1:26 the Angels are included in the creation of man. Were the Angels delegated the task to gather the dust of the earth in order to make Adam? Whose wisdom is behind every feature of our wonderful human being, God's creature or creation, our breath, heart, healing power of sores and bleeding, walking, singing, seeing, hearing? Veni, vidi, vici.

Whoops, a fairly long detailed Post, but I thought it important to properly cover your objection.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings again Wrangler,

I always believed the wings, like a halo in many paintings, are a way to perceive the glory of heavenly beings.

I suggest that in part the concept of wings is derived by considering that the Cherubim, Seraphim and also the Living Creatures of Revelation 4 are different varieties of Angels, rather than symbolic creatures. The Scriptures are very clear that the Angels on occasions were at first mistaken as men.

I am not really in favour of that type of religious art. Recently I viewed a video that was a series of very realistic paintings of Bible scenes with the relevant Scriptural quotation under the portrait. The paintings brought to life the meaning and circumstances of these events and sayings.

The implications are obvious. Language usage is not a friend to the inherently contradictory doctrine.

I consider Psalm 110:1 quoted and expounded numerous times by Jesus and the Apostles is a clear testimony to the truth concerning Jesus and his exaltation to the right hand of God.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings again Adventageous,

Those images and models on earth were based on that which exists in Heaven, as seen by Moses, and given to David, and also Solomon by the Holy Ghost / Spirit.

I appreciate the long list of quotations. The Cherubim of Ezekiel 1 had four faces apiece, a lion, an eagle, an ox and a man, and feet like calves feet burning as with coals of fire and also FOUR wings. The Seraphim faces are not described, but each had SIX wings and I am very interested in trying to understand what is being taught by the activity of each pair of wings (and I think I have the correct answer). The scene is a Temple scene, and they seem to replace the static Cherubim of the Ark of the Covenant, while Jesus is sitting upon the Throne, replacing the Mercy Seat and the Shekinah glory. The four Living Creatures possess only one head apiece, all different, a lion, an eagle, an ox and a man, but each of them have SIX wings apiece. Is all of this literal or symbolic?

What verse, text or passage are you specifically referring to? Gen. 18:3; Luke 24:4? If not, please provide the texts.

Genesis 18:1-2 (KJV): 1 And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day; 2 And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground,

Genesis 32:24-30 (KJV): 24 And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day. 25 And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him. 26 And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me. 27 And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob. 28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed. 29 And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there. 30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

Hosea 12:2-5 (KJV): 2 The LORD hath also a controversy with Judah, and will punish Jacob according to his ways; according to his doings will he recompense him. 3 He took his brother by the heel in the womb, and by his strength he had power with God: 4 Yea, he had power over the angel, and prevailed: he wept, and made supplication unto him: he found him in Bethel, and there he spake with us; 5 Even the LORD God of hosts; the LORD is his memorial.

Hebrews 13:2 (KJV): Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.

That does not negate the texts which state that they are of a differing nature (heavenly, celestial) than mankind's nature and have wings as well.

Can you quote a text where the Angels have wings?

My last comment on this subject to you; a citation, since it is plain you will not be convinced by the texts and material provided.

I have a copy of The Great Controversy in my SDA box. I was astounded by her end times dialogue on how there will be a National Sabbath Law, and that the SDAs will become the focus of the world and persecuted but the SDAs will be saved and taken to heaven and the non-Sabbath keeping world and all its inhabitants will be destroyed by fire and the earth will be desolate for 1000 years. Yes, I am not willing to accept EGW's strange ideas. I will not close my communication with you nevertheless, if there is something substantial and Scriptural.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[GodsGrace]

Greetings again Wrangler,

I suggest that in part the concept of wings is derived by considering that the Cherubim, Seraphim and also the Living Creatures of Revelation 4 are different varieties of Angels, rather than symbolic creatures. The Scriptures are very clear that the Angels on occasions were at first mistaken as men.

I am not really in favour of that type of religious art. Recently I viewed a video that was a series of very realistic paintings of Bible scenes with the relevant Scriptural quotation under the portrait. The paintings brought to life the meaning and circumstances of these events and sayings.

I consider Psalm 110:1 quoted and expounded numerous times by Jesus and the Apostles is a clear testimony to the truth concerning Jesus and his exaltation to the right hand of God.

Kind regards
Trevor

Agree as to the TYPES of angels.

 

[GodsGrace]

Greetings again GodsGrace,

My Post was not addressed directly to you and I tried to abbreviate my reply to Adventageous's two very long and detailed Posts while at the same time covering most of the ground.

My understanding and definition of the word Elohim is that the One God, Yahweh, God the Father delights to share His Work and Word and Wisdom with others, including the Angels -Divine Spirit Creatures, the Judges - humans and especially our Lord Jesus Christ, a human, the Son of God by birth, character and resurrection. In the case of the Angels, He would grant them all the power and wisdom necessary to achieve His Purpose. Thus it is Yahweh who is the Creator, but also in and through the Angels, where necessary or where He chooses, hence Genesis 1:1 literally Mighty Ones, He Created and specifically Genesis 1:26 the Angels are included in the creation of man. Were the Angels delegated the task to gather the dust of the earth in order to make Adam? Whose wisdom is behind every feature of our wonderful human being, God's creature or creation, our breath, heart, healing power of sores and bleeding, walking, singing, seeing, hearing? Veni, vidi, vici.

Whoops, a fairly long detailed Post, but I thought it important to properly cover your objection.

Kind regards
Trevor

Regarding God creating THROUGH the angels.

I find that sola scriptura is not enough to know Christian theology and this will prove it.

I looked up verses regarding Jesus in regards to the creation.

In some verses it states THROUGH Him
and in some verses it states BY Him

So, somehow, we need to look elsewhere to be sure that we believe/understand the correct interpretation of scripture.
I like to use the ECFs.

I am in the process of doing this...although I will not be as proficient at it as I used to be years ago.
Irenaeus (180AD) states that LET US MAKE is referring to Jesus...however, other early Fathers would have to agree.

Iraenaeus was taught by Polycarp
who was taught by John....

It does need to be confirmed.

I went through verses in John that speaks to this...
Didn't find anything conclusive -- or I missed it.

Food to digest.
Thanks!

 

[GodsGrace]

Greetings again GodsGrace,

My Post was not addressed directly to you and I tried to abbreviate my reply to Adventageous's two very long and detailed Posts while at the same time covering most of the ground.

My understanding and definition of the word Elohim is that the One God, Yahweh, God the Father delights to share His Work and Word and Wisdom with others, including the Angels -Divine Spirit Creatures, the Judges - humans and especially our Lord Jesus Christ, a human, the Son of God by birth, character and resurrection. In the case of the Angels, He would grant them all the power and wisdom necessary to achieve His Purpose. Thus it is Yahweh who is the Creator, but also in and through the Angels, where necessary or where He chooses, hence Genesis 1:1 literally Mighty Ones, He Created and specifically Genesis 1:26 the Angels are included in the creation of man. Were the Angels delegated the task to gather the dust of the earth in order to make Adam? Whose wisdom is behind every feature of our wonderful human being, God's creature or creation, our breath, heart, healing power of sores and bleeding, walking, singing, seeing, hearing? Veni, vidi, vici.

Whoops, a fairly long detailed Post, but I thought it important to properly cover your objection.

Kind regards
Trevor

PS
It is my understanding that Elohim just means gods.

 

[NayborBear]

PS
It is my understanding that Elohim just means gods.

Yah'-uh-'Vay is the very top, or head from which GOD'S "Government" is structured FROM! Lord of Hosts, God Almighty, Almighty God, Lord God, Lord God of Hosts, Lord God of Israel, are all (and probably a coupla more I missed) just a part of this government! A very important part indeed! As it pertains to "Covenant Relationship" to mankind!
Whereas Yah, El, Eloah, Elyon, Shaddai, and Adon, which are also patrially included in this covenant relationship, yet, also have a much wider scope of authority when it comes to creation, and not so much with Covenant relationship with mankind!

So? The mission of those mentioned above are unending in performing and executing is "drawing one closer" (by hook or crook) TO Jesus Christ of Nazareth in such a way as influencing belief, and acceptance of Christ, so as to rendering spiritual sacrifices UNTO those mentioned above (God) BY Christ!
So that one's spiritual temple (Beth-El in the O.T.) becomes enlarged to a point in accommodating the Holy Presence of those mentioned above!
Isaiah 28:10
For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

Jesus Christ of Nazareth = God! This is the correct way of stating this!
Jesus Christ of Nazareth = GOD! This is the incorrect way of stating this!
Can you discern this difference?
Many can not!
Many do not!
John 15:16
Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

 

[Adventageous]

I will not close my communication with you nevertheless

I only closed that particular subject with you. Notice, "My last comment on this subject to you"

 

[Adventageous]

I have a copy of The Great Controversy in my SDA box. I was astounded by her end times dialogue on how there will be a National Sabbath Law, and that the SDAs will become the focus of the world and persecuted but the SDAs will be saved and taken to heaven and the non-Sabbath keeping world and all its inhabitants will be destroyed by fire and the earth will be desolate for 1000 years. Yes, I am not willing to accept EGW's strange ideas. I will not close my communication with you nevertheless, if there is something substantial and Scriptural.

Kind regards
Trevor

Differing subject for another thread, not to derail, sideswipe, this one. I would be glad to discuss the evidence of that topic, even now in the world, but in another thread, not this one. The topic of this thread is about Christianity and the Elohiym.

 

[Adventageous]

PS
It is my understanding that Elohim just means gods.

Essentially, yes, more like the mighty ones, or authoritative ones.

 

[Adventageous]

The four Living Creatures

Are symbolic of the universal heavenly kingdoms of God, given in symbol. A beast in prophetic terms is a kingdom, a political entity, a state authority. 4 is the symbolic number for universal. This is also in my books with all the details to that. They represent all the unfallen worlds, with their unfallen beings, that surround and circle the throne of Deity in the universe.

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings again GodsGrace,

Agree as to the TYPES of angels.

Are you saying that the Cherubim with four different heads each and with burning calves feet are a literal breed of Angels? And the Living Creatures with four different heads EACH are another miscellaneous breed of Angels?

I looked up verses regarding Jesus in regards to the creation.
In some verses it states THROUGH Him
and in some verses it states BY Him

I need to carefully consider some of the NT references and try to understand some of the prepositions. I understand that Jesus is the Creator of the new Creation, and that the Edenic Creation was brought into existence for the sake of Christ and for God's ultimate purpose in and through Him.

It is my understanding that Elohim just means gods.

It is suggested that Elohim which can be translated Mighty Ones is the plural of Eloah, Mighty One, both connected with El, Might or Power. In a sense Elohim is incorrectly used for pagan gods, as they have no real power, except in the mind of false worshippers. O Baal, hear us !!

Essentially, yes, more like the mighty ones, or authoritative ones.

I agree with the first part at least.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings again Adventageous,

Differing subject for another thread, not to derail, sideswipe, this one. I would be glad to discuss the evidence of that topic, even now in the world, but in another thread, not this one.

Not sure that I want to fully discuss this.
As well as the large full page local newspaper advertisement on this subject I was sent The Great Controversy and a small booklet on the National Sabbath Law. Are you convinced that what EGW has suggested is Scriptural, or the SDAs endorse this because of their respect for her a Prophetess and her teaching is additional to the Scriptures on this subject?

Are symbolic of the universal heavenly kingdoms of God, given in symbol.

Obscure.

They represent all the unfallen worlds, with their unfallen beings, that surround and circle the throne of Deity in the universe.

Obscure.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Adventageous]

Obscure.

That's why I provided the book, and the details in it.

 

[GodsGrace]

Differing subject for another thread, not to derail, sideswipe, this one. I would be glad to discuss the evidence of that topic, even now in the world, but in another thread, not this one. The topic of this thread is about Christianity and the Elohiym.

You can discuss with the other member...I will not be complaining to moderators.
The subject of this thread has long since expired.

 

[GodsGrace]

Greetings again GodsGrace,

Are you saying that the Cherubim with four different heads each and with burning calves feet are a literal breed of Angels? And the Living Creatures with four different heads EACH are another miscellaneous breed of Angels?

I need to carefully consider some of the NT references and try to understand some of the prepositions. I understand that Jesus is the Creator of the new Creation, and that the Edenic Creation was brought into existence for the sake of Christ and for God's ultimate purpose in and through Him.

It is suggested that Elohim which can be translated Mighty Ones is the plural of Eloah, Mighty One, both connected with El, Might or Power. In a sense Elohim is incorrectly used for pagan gods, as they have no real power, except in the mind of false worshippers. O Baal, hear us !!

I agree with the first part at least.

Kind regards
Trevor

Good morning Trevor
I know about the Seraphim and the cherubim because I used to teach kids about them ..
and of course about Gabriel and Michael and how they are different in purpose.

I have never referred to their appearance, but your comment made me curious.
So I used YouTube this morning to listen to some information about them.
As usual, the Catholics go much deeper into everything, but, listening to the second tape, he made the job of the angels sound a lot like the job of the Holy Spirit but there might be some nuance there that I didn't understand.

I'm posting them for anyone reading along that might be interested.
To be honest...this does not interest me too much, although it should be touched upon by Christians since angels are mentioned in scripture.

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings again GodsGrace,

I know about the Seraphim and the cherubim because I used to teach kids about them

You have not disclosed as to whether you believe that Cherubim and Seraphim are literal or symbolic Creatures. I only endorse that they are symbolic. Both videos seem to indicate that they are real and surprisingly also claim that there are nine different types of Angels. Where they get that sort of information from I do not have a clue as it does not seem to be in the Bible, but the result of a vivid imagination. I do not believe that the RCC is inspired.

To be honest...this does not interest me too much, although it should be touched upon by Christians since angels are mentioned in scripture.

I consider the subject of the Angels is important and interesting and part of the revelation given by God. Similarly Cherubim and Seraphim contain important beneficial lessons, not the fantasy with which some people treat this subject.

Kind regards
Trevor