Impediments to Spiritual Growth in Christ.

[amigo de christo]

Amen....looking into the mirror of God's word and seeing why we need Jesus! We are so lost without Him, heading for perdition and deservedly so.

We need both the instruction and encouragement that comes from God's word, but oh my, it is also like fuller's soap when it shows us what we are, our fleshly nature, without Christ. I've heard people say we should rebuke the devil if we are reminded of sins of the past, but shouldn't we rather repent of anything and everything that comes to our awareness, either of the past or the present? I never knew even a small percentage of what I was when I first came to faith. It is only in God's light and really in the latter half of my journey that I've come to realize much more the extent of my iniquity. When I first came to the Lord I repented of unbelief, and felt so chagrined, but didn't know well enough yet to begin really facing and repenting of other specific sins, though the Lord delivered me from some things.

Seems to me we all have things deep down that have yet to be brought to the cross, so to speak. Repentance is like a dirty word to modern day Christianity.....one often gets an opposite impression in churches, that we should pretend to be perfect instead.... but repentance is actually the means to hope and how we apprehend more of Christ....it is a means to holiness. The bible says to confess our sins to God and He will be faithful to both forgive and to cleanse/deliver us. We often still have baggage that is undealt with when we first come to the Lord and we do even err after that because of it, as Christians. Maybe this is something Episkopos might consider with regard to certain things of his past.

Think it was John the Baptist who said Jesus would throughly purge His threshing floor.......we want to thoroughly cleanse the inside of our vessel.

So true sister .
we are to examine ourselves all r ight .
but many examine their selves against what men taught , or their mind says
NOT against what GOD says . If folks wanna examine their own righteousness
IF folks wanna see exactly how GOOD they are
TRY DOING SO by what is written in that bible .
WHEN THEY DO , they should realize , OH DEAR do we fall far SHORT of the GLORY of GOD of HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS
and RUN FOR JESUS THE CHRIST FOR THEIR rigtheouness , for their salvation .
Aint a man one or woman one gonna measure up to good and righteous , IN WHAT GOD says IS GOOD
and Righteous . ONLY ONE did that . HIS NAME , JESUS THE CHRIST .
And HE did it for our sakes , by WILL of the FATHER
so that all who do , here comes those words again , BEIEVE ON HIM
would not perish but have everlasting life . AND his sheep are created unto good works
that GOD before had ordained that we walk in them . SOME folks are not giving GOD the GLORY
cause they absolutely will NOT H ONOR THE SON . they DISHONOR his WORDS
and HIS gospel . And if a man calleth CHRIST a liar , they have indeed called the FATHER who sent HIM a liar .

 

[Lizbeth]

BUT not by our emotions
BUT BY the very words IN SCRIPTURE

Yes, this caught my eye. We can be susceptible because of human emotions and loyalties. But Jesus said if we love mother, father, brother, sister, and even our own children more than Him we are not worthy of Him. There comes a point where we need to "separate from the herd" so to speak and cleave to the Lord in order to grow. I see so many people being led astray because of loyalties and emotional connection with persons/personalities, whether ministers or family members etc. It is hard for them to be objective.

 

[amigo de christo]

Yes, this caught my eye. We can be susceptible because of human emotions and loyalties. But Jesus said if we love mother, father, brother, sister, and even our own children more than Him we are not worthy of Him. There comes a point where we need to "separate from the herd" so to speak and cleave to the Lord in order to grow. I see so many people being led astray because of loyalties and emotional connection with persons/personalities, whether ministers or family members etc. It is hard for them to be objective.

Oh yes my dear sister .
And as the hogs as one ran and fell off the cliff and were choked in the waters

This generation has no idea of whose cup its been sipping and her many daughters
but clambor and climb and run unto humanity emotional cup
and have no idea of the death upon which they do sup
SO my advice to one and to all
CLING to CHRIST or prepare to fall
For a harlot decieves and her love might seem sweet to their soul
But what they know not is her chambers are the way to sheol
There is a way which seems right unto man but the end thereof is death . BIBLE TIME .

 

[bdavidc]

Jer 29:13
"And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with  all your  heart."

If you, @bdavidc , @amigo de christo , @Lizbeth , would seek God at least as much as you persecuted Epikopos, you may actually find what Epikopos found. You are putting your efforts in the wrong place.
Episkopos has a heart after God the same as David. And deep in your hearts, in your inner man, you know it...it just doesn't compute in your minds (head).

The word says to apply are hearts, not our heads. Check out Ps 90:12, Pro 2:2, 22:17, 23:12.


Do you think God needs you to defend Him (with your good intentions) or to be a witness of the truth? To be a witness, you need to see (experience) something of God's kingdom. I encourage you to seek His kingdom with all your heart, not persecute His disciples. Episkopos speaks of what God has shown him. What are you speaking of??

Laurina, this isn't persecution. It's discernment.

Epikopos is a false teacher because what he teaches DOES NOT LINE UP WITH SCRIPTURE. Our God commands us to TEST every teaching...not affirmatively accept every teaching based on feelings/experiences/claims of inner-revelation. "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God." ~1 John 4:1

You use "heart" language...but Scripture NEVER pits heart against mind. God commands us to do BOTH. We are commanded to love Him WITH ALL OUR HEART AND WITH ALL OUR MIND. ~Matthew 22:37. When you cast-off biblical examination as "head knowledge" you are throwing out the VERY STANDARD GOD GAVE US TO PROTECT US FROM DECEIT.

Just because someone "has a heart after God" doesn't make their teaching true. David had a heart after God and STILL needed someone to speak truth to him. Scripture says that false teachers speak boldly and claim to have insight from God when they are leading people astray. ~Jeremiah 23:16. Personal experiences do not make doctrine true. Scripture does.

Our God does not want us to defend Him with opinions. He COMMANDS us to give witness TO THE TRUTH. ~John 18:37. And the truth is defined by God's WORD, NOT by someones claim that God "showed" them something in private.

If you affirm and promote false teaching... Scripture is clear that you are accountable for it as well. "He that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds." ~2 John 1:11

None of this has to do with effort or sincerity. It has to do with TRUTH. And when teaching is UNSCRIPTURAL, love demands we call it out.

Scripture is not vague about the fate of those who twist God’s Word. God says false teachers speak visions from their own heart and not from His mouth, and He warns, “They make you vain… I sent them not, nor commanded them” ~Jeremiah 23:16,21. Claiming God “showed” something that contradicts Scripture is not spirituality. It is deception.

Peter says false teachers “wrest the scriptures” and that they do so “unto their own destruction” ~2 Peter 3:16. God does not excuse sincerity when His Word is distorted.

James warns that teachers will receive stricter judgment, not leniency ~James 3:1. Teaching error in God’s name brings heavier accountability, not spiritual credibility.

Jesus Himself said false teachers will face judgment, even if they claim divine experiences. “Many will say to me in that day… and then will I profess unto them, I never knew you” ~Matthew 7:22–23.

Paul is even more severe. He says anyone who preaches a different gospel is accursed ~Galatians 1:8–9. That is God’s verdict, not man’s opinion.

False teaching is not a personality flaw or a difference of emphasis. Scripture says it brings destruction, judgment, and condemnation unless there is repentance. God does not protect those who misuse His Word. He judges them.

This is why Scripture commands us to test teaching and reject what is false. Truth is not optional, and twisting God’s Word is not a small matter.

 

[bdavidc]

Question:
Have you ACTUALLY read 2 Corinthians chapter 4, ALL of it??
Here's the first few verses:

You said truth isn't hidden. I can't and don't agree. Jesus said He was the Truth (and the Way and the Life). Since the Truth needs to be revealed to us, it is hidden until it is revealed. AND... IF it's not hidden, then WHY do we need to seek??? "Seek and you will find...", "your face, Lord, will I seek", there are so many verses that command us to seek.

Truth isn't "couched in mysticism", you say.
AGAIN, I can't and don't agree, because of what The Word says (I have no idea what Bible you read!?!?)

Laurina,

You are mistaking revealed truth with secret truth, and Scripture forbids that. You don't have to agree with me. What I am showing is actually in the bible and not made up, like you are defending. But the bad thing is you will answer to God for leading people away from His word. Stop following false teachers because eternity depends on knowing the truth. God will not ask your opinion on judgment day.

The Bible uses the word “mystery.” But mystery in the Bible does not mean secret knowledge held back for a spiritual elite. Mystery is truth that was hidden at one time but has been revealed by God. Paul says as much: “The mystery, which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints.” ~Colossians 1:26. Do you see how a revealed mystery is no longer a mystery?

Paul condemns the practice you defend. He says, “We have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully.” ~2 Corinthians 4:2. Paul doesn’t dispense truth by mysticism, secrecy, or private revelation. He dispenses truth plainly through His actual words in the Bible, not by man's opinions.

When Paul says the gospel is “hid”, he qualifies that by telling us exactly who it is hidden from. “If our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost.” ~2 Corinthians 4:3. It is hidden because God has blinded unbelievers, not because He encoded secret meaning into the Bible. ~2 Corinthians 4:4. People aren’t deceived because they don’t have secret knowledge. They are deceived because they refuse to accept the knowledge they do have.

“Seek” in the Bible does not mean searching for secret knowledge or chasing after mystical revelations. To seek means to turn to God by repenting and believing in Him. When you say Jeremiah 29: 13 promises mystical revelation, you have taken that verse OUT of context. In context, it promises those who SEEK the Lord WITH ALL THEIR HEART will find Him. Not secret knowledge.

And you make the false dichotomy that Scripture sets heart against mind. It does no such thing. God told us to love Him with all the heart and with all the mind. ~Matthew 22: 37 Paul told believers to renew their minds with truth. ~Romans 12: 2 When you call careful handling of Scripture “head knowledge,” you’re rejecting how God wants you to handle His Word.

The “mystery of the gospel” is not mystical knowledge that God whispers to certain individuals. Paul says that Christ Himself is the mystery, but Christ is openly preached to the nations ~Colossians 1:27. Paul even prayed that God would give him boldness to speak that mystery ~Ephesians 6:19. Not conceal it. Not reserve it for only a few. Boldly speak it.

Invoking mysticism, inner revelation, and the excuse of “readness” is how false teaching avoids any testing. Scripture tells us to do the exact opposite: “Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.” ~1 Thessalonians 5:21.

Correcting teaching is not persecution. It is obedience to Scripture. And when teaching goes against the clear teaching of Scripture, it MUST be opposed whether someone cloaks it in sincere soundbites or not.

Jesus did not come to start a secret society. He came to reveal truth to the world.

Jesus did not speak in mysteries only a select few could know. He told His disciples to proclaim Christ openly. Truth is not secretive. Truth is not mystical. ANYTHING ELSE IS NOT CHRISTIANITY.

Paul warned that false teaching spreads like a disease and must be cut off. He said their word will eat like a canker and overthrow the faith of some ~2 Timothy 2:16–18. Cancer is not coddled. It is removed.

God says He is against those who claim divine insight when He did not speak to them. “I am against the prophets, saith the LORD, that steal my words every one from his neighbour” ~Jeremiah 23:30.

Jesus rebuked religious deceivers publicly and harshly, calling them blind guides and sons of hell because they shut up the kingdom of heaven against men ~Matthew 23:13–15.

 

[bdavidc]

If we look at this man's testimony of how he came to believe in Christ.......that and everything together makes me wonder if he needs deliverance from his past involvement in new age. New agers have "experiences".....and the devil does indeed believe, except he comes only to deceitfully destroy. I consider there is some truth to what Episkopos is talking about regarding holiness, but he does it in a way that despises and discards and treads the foundation of the faith underfoot. The Holy Spirit would never do that....but the devil would and does.

When someone continually suppresses or perverts the gospel, Scripture allows us to doubt that they know Christ. John is clear: “He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him” ~1 John 2:4. The gospel that elevates experience and secret knowledge above the sufficiency of Christ and His Word is not the gospel that saves. Scripture labels that person “another gospel,” which literally means no gospel at all ~Galatians 1:6–9.

For this reason, Scripture does not tell us to gently encourage those who teach falsehoods. It tells us to pray for them, rebuke them, and withhold fellowship from them. False teachers are to be “rebuked sharply” ~Titus 1: 13, and we are not to greet those who do not teach the whole counsel of Christ ~2 John 1:9–11. Our goal is not their destruction, but their repentance and return to the truth. Quietness or compromise toward false teaching is not an act of love.

Scripture further warns that false teachers will seldom say things that are outright lies. They will usually mix truth and error together. In fact, that is how deception works. Paul says they make “good words and fair speeches” to deceive unsuspecting people ~Romans 16:18. Satan comes as “an angel of light,” and his servants act as “servants of righteousness” ~2 Corinthians 11:13–15. When truth is used to wrap around a lie, the lie seems plausible. This is why error is so perilous. “A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump” ~Galatians 5:9. Truth blended with error is still error, and it must be exposed.

 

[Laurina]

Laurina, this isn't persecution. It's discernment.

We will have to agree to disagree...

Epikopos is a false teacher because what he teaches DOES NOT LINE UP WITH SCRIPTURE.

This is YOUR opinion, based on YOUR discernment??
Please point out specifically any ONE of his teachings, pick one, and PROVE (show me) where it does not line up with scripture. Please quote him from his posts since it is my experience that people twist his words and meanings.

Our God commands us to TEST every teaching...not affirmatively accept every teaching based on feelings/experiences/claims of inner-revelation. "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God." ~1 John 4:1

...and what is YOUR METHOD for trying the spirits?

You use "heart" language...but Scripture NEVER pits heart against mind. God commands us to do BOTH.

"...with all your heart, soul, and mind..."

Notice the order...is it random??

"You will find Me when you search for Me with ALL your heart." Jer. 29:13

Does it say to seek with ALL your mind?? We are to love and serve with ALL our hearts and souls...our minds need to be renewed which can only happen AFTER having sought and found the Lord.

Remember Saul, how he was serving the Lord with all his mind?? He was a very learned Pharisee taught by the best man could offer, yet, because of his "developed" mind, he persecuted God's servants...his mind (and probably his soul) had come before his heart...and definitely before having met Jesus.

We are commanded to love Him WITH ALL OUR HEART AND WITH ALL OUR MIND. ~Matthew 22:37. When you cast-off biblical examination as "head knowledge" you are throwing out the VERY STANDARD GOD GAVE US TO PROTECT US FROM DECEIT.

Let's stick to the word. Heart, soul and then mind. If you put mind first, before it's renewed, you are like Saul before he encountered God on the road to Damascus.
Can you say deceived??
Let's talk AFTER you've had your "knocked off your horse" experience.

Just because someone "has a heart after God" doesn't make their teaching true.

If someone has a heart after God they are open to God and His ways, they are teachable. And God sees to their training.

David had a heart after God and STILL needed someone to speak truth to him.

I would say we ALL need Truth to speak to us. Jesus is the Truth (and Way and Life).

Scripture is not vague about the fate of those who twist God’s Word.

Agreed, so let's not do that, and let's expose WHEN it's done.

 

[Lizbeth]

Laurina,

You are mistaking revealed truth with secret truth, and Scripture forbids that. You don't have to agree with me. What I am showing is actually in the bible and not made up, like you are defending. But the bad thing is you will answer to God for leading people away from His word. Stop following false teachers because eternity depends on knowing the truth. God will not ask your opinion on judgment day.

The Bible uses the word “mystery.” But mystery in the Bible does not mean secret knowledge held back for a spiritual elite. Mystery is truth that was hidden at one time but has been revealed by God. Paul says as much: “The mystery, which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints.” ~Colossians 1:26. Do you see how a revealed mystery is no longer a mystery?

Paul condemns the practice you defend. He says, “We have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully.” ~2 Corinthians 4:2. Paul doesn’t dispense truth by mysticism, secrecy, or private revelation. He dispenses truth plainly through His actual words in the Bible, not by man's opinions.

When Paul says the gospel is “hid”, he qualifies that by telling us exactly who it is hidden from. “If our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost.” ~2 Corinthians 4:3. It is hidden because God has blinded unbelievers, not because He encoded secret meaning into the Bible. ~2 Corinthians 4:4. People aren’t deceived because they don’t have secret knowledge. They are deceived because they refuse to accept the knowledge they do have.

“Seek” in the Bible does not mean searching for secret knowledge or chasing after mystical revelations. To seek means to turn to God by repenting and believing in Him. When you say Jeremiah 29: 13 promises mystical revelation, you have taken that verse OUT of context. In context, it promises those who SEEK the Lord WITH ALL THEIR HEART will find Him. Not secret knowledge.

And you make the false dichotomy that Scripture sets heart against mind. It does no such thing. God told us to love Him with all the heart and with all the mind. ~Matthew 22: 37 Paul told believers to renew their minds with truth. ~Romans 12: 2 When you call careful handling of Scripture “head knowledge,” you’re rejecting how God wants you to handle His Word.

The “mystery of the gospel” is not mystical knowledge that God whispers to certain individuals. Paul says that Christ Himself is the mystery, but Christ is openly preached to the nations ~Colossians 1:27. Paul even prayed that God would give him boldness to speak that mystery ~Ephesians 6:19. Not conceal it. Not reserve it for only a few. Boldly speak it.

Invoking mysticism, inner revelation, and the excuse of “readness” is how false teaching avoids any testing. Scripture tells us to do the exact opposite: “Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.” ~1 Thessalonians 5:21.

Correcting teaching is not persecution. It is obedience to Scripture. And when teaching goes against the clear teaching of Scripture, it MUST be opposed whether someone cloaks it in sincere soundbites or not.

Jesus did not come to start a secret society. He came to reveal truth to the world.

Jesus did not speak in mysteries only a select few could know. He told His disciples to proclaim Christ openly. Truth is not secretive. Truth is not mystical. ANYTHING ELSE IS NOT CHRISTIANITY.

Paul warned that false teaching spreads like a disease and must be cut off. He said their word will eat like a canker and overthrow the faith of some ~2 Timothy 2:16–18. Cancer is not coddled. It is removed.

God says He is against those who claim divine insight when He did not speak to them. “I am against the prophets, saith the LORD, that steal my words every one from his neighbour” ~Jeremiah 23:30.

Jesus rebuked religious deceivers publicly and harshly, calling them blind guides and sons of hell because they shut up the kingdom of heaven against men ~Matthew 23:13–15.

By which mind are we are to love God though? I dont' think this is referring to our natural carnal mind of flesh...since we are told the carnal mind is enmity with God and that the natural man can't perceive/understand the things of God. So it must be talking about the renewed mind, the mind of Christ, would you agree?. We are told in scripture to compare spiritual with spiritual ...things that can only be grasped with the mind of Christ. We must go beyond the realm of "knowledge of good and evil" to get hold of the Tree of Life.

And since we are told to grow in understanding, and it was written to some in the church that there were things they could not yet bear.....things that go beyond the milk of the word......it must be that the things we haven't grown to understand and are able to bear yet remain a mystery and hidden to us until we grow to understand them. We're told in Hebrews to leave the first principles and foundation of the faith (milk) to go on to perfection. We need to grow from those first principles and begin to be able to endure/tolerate the harder to bear meat of the word. Speaking for myself, I agree in principle with much of what Episkopos says about holiness, but very strongly disagree with how he does so in a way that denies the foundational things apply to all believers who know the Lord.

I would hardly call disagreement and discussion persecution.........however it is true in principle that carnal or fleshly religion will persecute what is spiritual. We saw that with Jesus. And we have seen historically an example of Catholicism persecuting the true faith/gospel. People tend to persecute what they don't yet understand.

 

[amigo de christo]

By which mind are we are to love God though? I dont' think this is referring to our natural carnal mind of flesh...since we are told the carnal mind is enmity with God and that the natural man can't perceive/understand the things of God. So it must be talking about the renewed mind, the mind of Christ, would you agree?. We are told in scripture to compare spiritual with spiritual ...things that can only be grasped with the mind of Christ. We must go beyond the realm of "knowledge of good and evil" to get hold of the Tree of Life.

And since we are told to grow in understanding, and it was written to some in the church that there were things they could not yet bear.....things that go beyond the milk of the word......it must be that the things we haven't grown to understand and are able to bear yet remain a mystery and hidden to us until we grow to understand them. We're told in Hebrews to leave the first principles and foundation of the faith (milk) to go on to perfection. We need to grow from those first principles and begin to be able to endure/tolerate the harder to bear meat of the word. Speaking for myself, I agree in principle with much of what Episkopos says about holiness, but very strongly disagree with how he does so in a way that denies the foundational things apply to all believers who know the Lord.

I would hardly call disagreement and discussion persecution.........however it is true in principle that carnal or fleshly religion will persecute what is spiritual. We saw that with Jesus. And we have seen historically an example of Catholicism persecuting the true faith/gospel. People tend to persecute what they don't yet understand.

Without FAITH it is impossible to please HIM .
If one has not faith in GOD and BELEIVE that HE IS , then impossible it is to please HIM .
And if one has NOT faith in JESUS CHRIST , then they absolutely have not Faith IN GOD who sent HIM .
For without ME ye can do NOTHING .
But as you can well see and discern there are folks who t hink
OH YES I CAN as they put the horsey into the cart BELEIVING this can be done WITHOUT FAITH IN CHRIST .
Talk about delusion . The very jews were cast out due to unbelief .
They too sought to DO by their own efforts to a ttain righteousness .
GOD desires Obediance above all things .
AND IT is HE who has testified of the SON , that at the
feet of CHRIST shall every tongue confess . GOD chose how to save the world
and SEEING IT IS HE who saves , THEN its about time these folks
start GIVING HIM such GLORY and thus HONOR THE SON . Its time with double effort
to remind this people OF the dire need TO BELIEVE ON JESUS THE CHRIST . To the trenches one and all .

 

[bdavidc]

By which mind are we are to love God though? I dont' think this is referring to our natural carnal mind of flesh...since we are told the carnal mind is enmity with God and that the natural man can't perceive/understand the things of God. So it must be talking about the renewed mind, the mind of Christ, would you agree?. We are told in scripture to compare spiritual with spiritual ...things that can only be grasped with the mind of Christ. We must go beyond the realm of "knowledge of good and evil" to get hold of the Tree of Life.

And since we are told to grow in understanding, and it was written to some in the church that there were things they could not yet bear.....things that go beyond the milk of the word......it must be that the things we haven't grown to understand and are able to bear yet remain a mystery and hidden to us until we grow to understand them. We're told in Hebrews to leave the first principles and foundation of the faith (milk) to go on to perfection. We need to grow from those first principles and begin to be able to endure/tolerate the harder to bear meat of the word. Speaking for myself, I agree in principle with much of what Episkopos says about holiness, but very strongly disagree with how he does so in a way that denies the foundational things apply to all believers who know the Lord.

I would hardly call disagreement and discussion persecution.........however it is true in principle that carnal or fleshly religion will persecute what is spiritual. We saw that with Jesus. And we have seen historically an example of Catholicism persecuting the true faith/gospel. People tend to persecute what they don't yet understand.

You are absolutely right that God is not calling us to love Him with an unregenerate, flesh-driven mind. The carnal mind is hostile toward God ~Romans 8:7, and the natural man cannot receive the things of the Spirit ~1 Corinthians 2:14. Salvation brings a new orientation. God renews the mind through truth ~Romans 12:2, and that truth comes from His Word ~2 Timothy 3:16–17. No argument there.

But here is where the road forks, and Scripture forces us to choose a direction.

A renewed mind does not mean a hidden layer of Scripture opens up only after reaching a higher spiritual rank. The Bible does not work like a spiritual escape room. Paul says the mystery was hidden in ages past, but now it has been revealed ~Colossians 1:26. Revealed means God turned the lights on. Growth does not uncover secret meanings. Growth produces obedience, discernment, and stability in truth already revealed.

Milk and meat is not beginner truth versus elite truth. Hebrews tells us exactly what milk is. It is the basic principles of God’s Word ~Hebrews 5:12. Meat is not new information. It is the same Word digested by believers who have trained their senses to discern good and evil ~Hebrews 5:14. The issue is not access. The issue is maturity in application.

Jesus told His disciples there were things they could not yet bear ~John 16:12, but He did not leave that hanging in mystery. He immediately explained that the Spirit would guide them into all truth ~John 16:13. And where did that truth land? In the apostolic teaching preserved for us in Scripture. The faith was delivered once ~Jude 3, not in installments based on spiritual progress.

Now about the “mind of Christ.” Paul does not define that as private revelation or insight beyond Scripture. He defines it by quoting Scripture itself ~1 Corinthians 2:16. The Spirit never bypasses the Word. He illuminates it. Anything claimed as spiritual understanding that cannot be shown plainly from the text is not deeper truth. It is detached truth.

And the Tree of Life language sounds spiritual, but Scripture never uses it to describe stages of interpretation. That framework is added, not taught. The Bible never tells believers to move beyond knowledge. It tells us to grow in the knowledge of Christ ~2 Peter 3:18. Knowledge does not oppose spirituality. Pride does.

You are right that disagreement is not persecution. But Scripture is clear that spiritual-sounding language is often used to shield ideas from testing. That is why God never relaxes the standard. “To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them” ~Isaiah 8:20.

Here is the bottom line. Growth in Christ does not mean discovering new truths God tucked away. It means deeper submission to what He already said. Maturity is not mystery. Maturity is obedience. And Scripture does not bend on that, no matter how spiritual something sounds.

 

[amigo de christo]

You are absolutely right that God is not calling us to love Him with an unregenerate, flesh-driven mind. The carnal mind is hostile toward God ~Romans 8:7, and the natural man cannot receive the things of the Spirit ~1 Corinthians 2:14. Salvation brings a new orientation. God renews the mind through truth ~Romans 12:2, and that truth comes from His Word ~2 Timothy 3:16–17. No argument there.

But here is where the road forks, and Scripture forces us to choose a direction.

A renewed mind does not mean a hidden layer of Scripture opens up only after reaching a higher spiritual rank. The Bible does not work like a spiritual escape room. Paul says the mystery was hidden in ages past, but now it has been revealed ~Colossians 1:26. Revealed means God turned the lights on. Growth does not uncover secret meanings. Growth produces obedience, discernment, and stability in truth already revealed.

Milk and meat is not beginner truth versus elite truth. Hebrews tells us exactly what milk is. It is the basic principles of God’s Word ~Hebrews 5:12. Meat is not new information. It is the same Word digested by believers who have trained their senses to discern good and evil ~Hebrews 5:14. The issue is not access. The issue is maturity in application.

Jesus told His disciples there were things they could not yet bear ~John 16:12, but He did not leave that hanging in mystery. He immediately explained that the Spirit would guide them into all truth ~John 16:13. And where did that truth land? In the apostolic teaching preserved for us in Scripture. The faith was delivered once ~Jude 3, not in installments based on spiritual progress.

Now about the “mind of Christ.” Paul does not define that as private revelation or insight beyond Scripture. He defines it by quoting Scripture itself ~1 Corinthians 2:16. The Spirit never bypasses the Word. He illuminates it. Anything claimed as spiritual understanding that cannot be shown plainly from the text is not deeper truth. It is detached truth.

And the Tree of Life language sounds spiritual, but Scripture never uses it to describe stages of interpretation. That framework is added, not taught. The Bible never tells believers to move beyond knowledge. It tells us to grow in the knowledge of Christ ~2 Peter 3:18. Knowledge does not oppose spirituality. Pride does.

You are right that disagreement is not persecution. But Scripture is clear that spiritual-sounding language is often used to shield ideas from testing. That is why God never relaxes the standard. “To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them” ~Isaiah 8:20.

Here is the bottom line. Growth in Christ does not mean discovering new truths God tucked away. It means deeper submission to what He already said. Maturity is not mystery. Maturity is obedience. And Scripture does not bend on that, no matter how spiritual something sounds.

yes indeed my friend its not new truth , it would be maturity , more understanding , growth .
its easy to examine what many call these so called higher learning mysteries and find they fall short .
How so , They contradict by their meaning the already established truth that was originally written down and recorded .
I have never met one who always stuck to this Higher mystery etc
WHO DID NOT use this to omit and twist what was already written down .
And always their main excuses are
Ye are still carnal
Ye are not ready for this new mystery
Or whatever other line they often use .
But again you want to know what i see , THEY use this higher so called mystery
TO simply omit , make void , something ALREADY writ ten down .
That aint higher truth , that be the dark one who has convinced them ye are as god and have new knowledge
and boy does it puff their heads up to the full . Ever learning , but unable to come to The T RUTH .
These are very deceptive times my friend . But watch how simple it is to refresh oneself
from all this mystery of confusion many now bring . JUST simply read and enjoy the scriptures .
Truth exposes that which is contrary . But what else do we notice
about this high learned so called myserious overseers and etc
THEY dont like bible talk . NO that gets in the way , that is too carnal , that is too whatever .
NO , its EXPOSES THEM my friend and that is why they often DOWN talk those who stuck TO the scrips
and act like we religious zealouts . They act like we who st ick to scriptures
are carnal and they who , OBVIOUSLY are carnal , are highly spiriutual ones .
Its all a sham my friend . THey aint higher learned at all
Their higher so called learning and revelation , LED THEM RIGHT INTO rebellion and lies taught against scripture t ruth .
Now that is a delusion indeed .

 

[Lizbeth]

Without FAITH it is impossible to please HIM .
If one has not faith in GOD and BELEIVE that HE IS , then impossible it is to please HIM .
And if one has NOT faith in JESUS CHRIST , then they absolutely have not Faith IN GOD who sent HIM .
For without ME ye can do NOTHING .
But as you can well see and discern there are folks who t hink
OH YES I CAN as they put the horsey into the cart BELEIVING this can be done with FAITH IN CHRIST .
Talk about delusion . The very jews were cast out due to unbelief .
They too sought to DO by their own efforts to a ttain righteousness .
GOD desires Obediance above all things .
AND IT is HE who has testified of the SON , that at the
feet of CHRIST shall every tongue confess . GOD chose how to save the world
and SEEING IT IS HE who saves , THEN its about time these folks
start GIVING HIM such GLORY and thus HONOR THE SON . Its time with double effort
to remind this people OF the dire need TO BELIEVE ON JESUS THE CHRIST . To the trenches one and all .

I think you meant to say "without faith in Christ" there brother.....and I certainly agree. Epi must be talking about the time before Jesus came, or rather gleaning it from those earlier scrips.....but it's a mistake to try and apply the same in this age after Jesus died and rose from the dead. That is the whole reason Christ must be preached and missionaries/evangelists will risk or be willing to lose their lives in doing so. And God will even reach some with a revelation of Jesus without the agency of man when it is necessary.

 

[amigo de christo]

I think you meant to say "without faith in Christ" there brother.....and I certainly agree. Epi must be talking about the time before Jesus came, or rather gleaning it from those earlier scrips.....but it's a mistake to try and apply the same in this age after Jesus died and rose from the dead. That is the whole reason Christ must be preached and missionaries/evangelists will risk or be willing to lose their lives in doing so. And God will even reach some with a revelation of Jesus without the agency of man when it is necessary.

Glad you caught that sister . i went and changed it

 

[Lizbeth]

You are absolutely right that God is not calling us to love Him with an unregenerate, flesh-driven mind. The carnal mind is hostile toward God ~Romans 8:7, and the natural man cannot receive the things of the Spirit ~1 Corinthians 2:14. Salvation brings a new orientation. God renews the mind through truth ~Romans 12:2, and that truth comes from His Word ~2 Timothy 3:16–17. No argument there.

But here is where the road forks, and Scripture forces us to choose a direction.

A renewed mind does not mean a hidden layer of Scripture opens up only after reaching a higher spiritual rank. The Bible does not work like a spiritual escape room. Paul says the mystery was hidden in ages past, but now it has been revealed ~Colossians 1:26. Revealed means God turned the lights on. Growth does not uncover secret meanings. Growth produces obedience, discernment, and stability in truth already revealed.

Milk and meat is not beginner truth versus elite truth. Hebrews tells us exactly what milk is. It is the basic principles of God’s Word ~Hebrews 5:12. Meat is not new information. It is the same Word digested by believers who have trained their senses to discern good and evil ~Hebrews 5:14. The issue is not access. The issue is maturity in application.

Jesus told His disciples there were things they could not yet bear ~John 16:12, but He did not leave that hanging in mystery. He immediately explained that the Spirit would guide them into all truth ~John 16:13. And where did that truth land? In the apostolic teaching preserved for us in Scripture. The faith was delivered once ~Jude 3, not in installments based on spiritual progress.

Now about the “mind of Christ.” Paul does not define that as private revelation or insight beyond Scripture. He defines it by quoting Scripture itself ~1 Corinthians 2:16. The Spirit never bypasses the Word. He illuminates it. Anything claimed as spiritual understanding that cannot be shown plainly from the text is not deeper truth. It is detached truth.

And the Tree of Life language sounds spiritual, but Scripture never uses it to describe stages of interpretation. That framework is added, not taught. The Bible never tells believers to move beyond knowledge. It tells us to grow in the knowledge of Christ ~2 Peter 3:18. Knowledge does not oppose spirituality. Pride does.

You are right that disagreement is not persecution. But Scripture is clear that spiritual-sounding language is often used to shield ideas from testing. That is why God never relaxes the standard. “To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them” ~Isaiah 8:20.

Here is the bottom line. Growth in Christ does not mean discovering new truths God tucked away. It means deeper submission to what He already said. Maturity is not mystery. Maturity is obedience. And Scripture does not bend on that, no matter how spiritual something sounds.

And deeper submission requires deeper understanding of what is written, would you agree? We often gloss over so many things in scripture without really understanding them, or we may see them only on a superficial, carnal or literal level until we gain more understanding. There are not "new truths" per se but there are truths that certainly may be new to us until we discover them, with the Lord's help....it is the Holy Spirit who leads us into all truth.

 

[bdavidc]

We will have to agree to disagree...


This is YOUR opinion, based on YOUR discernment??
Please point out specifically any ONE of his teachings, pick one, and PROVE (show me) where it does not line up with scripture. Please quote him from his posts since it is my experience that people twist his words and meanings.



...and what is YOUR METHOD for trying the spirits?



"...with all your heart, soul, and mind..."

Notice the order...is it random??

"You will find Me when you search for Me with ALL your heart." Jer. 29:13

Does it say to seek with ALL your mind?? We are to love and serve with ALL our hearts and souls...our minds need to be renewed which can only happen AFTER having sought and found the Lord.

Remember Saul, how he was serving the Lord with all his mind?? He was a very learned Pharisee taught by the best man could offer, yet, because of his "developed" mind, he persecuted God's servants...his mind (and probably his soul) had come before his heart...and definitely before having met Jesus.



Let's stick to the word. Heart, soul and then mind. If you put mind first, before it's renewed, you are like Saul before he encountered God on the road to Damascus.
Can you say deceived??
Let's talk AFTER you've had your "knocked off your horse" experience.



If someone has a heart after God they are open to God and His ways, they are teachable. And God sees to their training.

I would say we ALL need Truth to speak to us. Jesus is the Truth (and Way and Life).

Agreed, so let's not do that, and let's expose WHEN it's done.

This is not my opinion. What I am saying is what the Bible teaches, and what you are saying goes beyond it. Your, “agree to disagree” is not a biblical category when truth is at stake. Scripture does not say truth is settled by mutual tolerance. It says, “Let God be true, but every man a liar” ~Romans 3:4. When teaching is examined, it is weighed against Scripture, not protected by personal discernment claims.

You ask for proof of false teaching. I already gave it. Teaching that truth is hidden, layered, or only accessible after some inner experience directly contradicts Scripture. Paul says the mystery was hidden but now revealed ~Colossians 1:26. Revealed does not mean partially revealed or revealed later after spiritual growth. It means made known. When someone teaches otherwise, they are contradicting what is written.

Your question about “trying the spirits” is answered plainly in Scripture. John does not say to test by inward feeling, heart posture, or mystical openness. He says to test by doctrine. “Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God” ~1 John 4:2. Paul says even if an angel preaches another gospel, it is to be rejected ~Galatians 1:8. The method is comparison with the written Word. Nothing else.

You are treating the order of words as if it establishes a spiritual sequence or priority, but Scripture never teaches that word order creates a process. When Jesus says, “with all your heart, soul, and mind,” He is not laying out steps. He is commanding total devotion. The verse is not saying: first heart, then soul, then mind. It is saying all of you, fully, at once. Jesus did not say love God with heart first until renewed, then mind later. He commanded love with all three together ~Matthew 22:37. Paul commands believers to be transformed by the renewing of the mind ~Romans 12:2. You are separating what Scripture keeps united.

Jeremiah 29:13 does not teach that the mind is excluded from seeking God. It teaches wholehearted devotion, not anti-intellectualism. Scripture repeatedly commands understanding, knowledge, and wisdom. “With all thy getting get understanding” ~Proverbs 4:7. “Give attendance to reading” ~1 Timothy 4:13. “Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things” ~2 Timothy 2:7.

Your use of Saul is a misapplication. Saul was not condemned for using his mind. He was condemned for unbelief. After conversion, that same man was commanded by Christ to teach, reason, and explain Scripture. Acts records him reasoning from the Scriptures repeatedly ~Acts 17:2. God did not shut down Paul’s mind. He redeemed it.

Saying someone is deceived because they handle Scripture carefully is backwards. Scripture says the Bereans were noble because they searched the Scriptures daily to test teaching ~Acts 17:11. That is not fleshly religion. That is obedience.

Your demand that someone wait for a “knocked off your horse” experience before speaking is completely unbiblical. Scripture never teaches that personal experience validates truth. It teaches that truth validates experience. “To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them” ~Isaiah 8:20.

You say those with a heart after God are teachable. Scripture defines teachable as submission to the Word, not openness to undefined spiritual impressions. God trains His people through Scripture, not private insight ~2 Timothy 3:16–17.

Yes, Jesus is the Truth. And He said God’s Word is truth ~John 17:17. You cannot separate Christ from what He has spoken.

The problem here is not discernment. It is redefining discernment as something other than Scripture. When teaching cannot be tested plainly from the Bible, it is false. When someone shields teaching behind heart language, experiences, or accusations of carnality, that is exactly how false teaching avoids correction. This is not about tone. It is about truth. And Scripture does not support what you are defending.

 

[bdavidc]

And deeper submission requires deeper understanding of what is written, would you agree? We often gloss over so many things in scripture without really understanding them, or we may see them only on a superficial, carnal or literal level until we gain more understanding. There are not "new truths" per se but there are truths that certainly may be new to us until we discover them, with the Lord's help....it is the Holy Spirit who leads us into all truth.

Yes, what you're saying can be true if we keep it within biblical guardrails, and those guardrails count. When someone is truly born again and steps into walking in obedience, Scripture becomes plain when it never did before. Jesus told us a man must be born again to see. ~John 3: 3 Paul told us the natural man does not understand the things of the Spirit because they are spiritually discerned. ~1 Corinthians 2:14 That is not new revelation. That is spiritual eyes replacing blindness.

What changes is not the Bible. What changes is the person. The truth was always there. The heart was not. This is illumination, not revelation. Scripture is already revealed. God’s Word is complete. The Holy Spirit does not add meanings, layers, or upgraded interpretations. He opens the eyes of the believer to understand and submit to what is already written. “The entrance of thy words giveth light; it giveth understanding unto the simple” ~Psalm 119:130. The light is in the Word, not hidden behind it.

Where this must stay tight is here: the clarity that comes after conversion does not move someone beyond the plain meaning of Scripture, nor does it reclassify the literal sense as “carnal.” The apostles taught doctrine with words, plainly stated, taught by the Spirit ~1 Corinthians 2:13. Christianity is a revealed faith, not a symbolic one that matures into hidden meanings.

So yes, truth can be “new to us” in the sense that we finally see and grasp what we previously read without understanding. But no truth is ever new in the sense of being newly discovered, unlocked, or reserved for later maturity. The faith was once delivered ~Jude 3, not delivered in stages.

The Holy Spirit leads us into all truth by bringing us into submission to Scripture, not by taking us beyond it. When obedience follows regeneration, the Word lands with conviction and clarity. That is biblical. But once clarity is untethered from what is plainly written, it stops being illumination and becomes imagination. And Scripture never authorizes that.

 

[amigo de christo]

Yes, what you're saying can be true if we keep it within biblical guardrails, and those guardrails count. When someone is truly born again and steps into walking in obedience, Scripture becomes plain when it never did before. Jesus told us a man must be born again to see. ~John 3: 3 Paul told us the natural man does not understand the things of the Spirit because they are spiritually discerned. ~1 Corinthians 2:14 That is not new revelation. That is spiritual eyes replacing blindness.

What changes is not the Bible. What changes is the person. The truth was always there. The heart was not. This is illumination, not revelation. Scripture is already revealed. God’s Word is complete. The Holy Spirit does not add meanings, layers, or upgraded interpretations. He opens the eyes of the believer to understand and submit to what is already written. “The entrance of thy words giveth light; it giveth understanding unto the simple” ~Psalm 119:130. The light is in the Word, not hidden behind it.

Where this must stay tight is here: the clarity that comes after conversion does not move someone beyond the plain meaning of Scripture, nor does it reclassify the literal sense as “carnal.” The apostles taught doctrine with words, plainly stated, taught by the Spirit ~1 Corinthians 2:13. Christianity is a revealed faith, not a symbolic one that matures into hidden meanings.

So yes, truth can be “new to us” in the sense that we finally see and grasp what we previously read without understanding. But no truth is ever new in the sense of being newly discovered, unlocked, or reserved for later maturity. The faith was once delivered ~Jude 3, not delivered in stages.

The Holy Spirit leads us into all truth by bringing us into submission to Scripture, not by taking us beyond it. When obedience follows regeneration, the Word lands with conviction and clarity. That is biblical. But once clarity is untethered from what is plainly written, it stops being illumination and becomes imagination. And Scripture never authorizes that.

verily verily i do say unto thee but once clarity is untethered from what is plainly written it is not truth but a lie
and let all who name the name of Christ heed not its imagination that clearly contradicts the scrips .
For all who do so love a lie and not the Truth .
Always they do strive about words to no profit and always they restructure what was plainly written
INTO something it never meant , and in fact IS A LIE that contradicts but made to sound like higher learning of new revealed truth .
In other words
they do exactly as this next example . For they will use truths but do so to imply a lie .
First example . HAS GOD really said ye may not eat of the trees in the garden .
And when eve told the truth and said , WE may eat of the trees of the garden , but not of the TREE
in the midst of it , for in that day we shall surely die ,
What did this master of new revelation present to her
A LIE and yet used truth to do so . watch closely my friend .
NAY nay YE shall not surely die , LIE
Ye shall become as gods to know good and evil , truth . CAUSE EVEN GOD said THEY have become as us to know good and evil .
SO ya see HE uses a truth but does so to imply a lie as well . As do many others i might add .
PRIME example of this one .
Has CHRIST , has GOD really said That if you beleive NOT ye shall die in your sins , perish .
And the correct response is , WHY YES , HE who beleives shall b e saved but he who believes not shall be damned .
THEN ENTERS the voice of the liar
NAY NAY ye shall not surely perish , FOR GOD IS LOVE . YOU SEE how he lies but uses A truth to make it seem
like one wont perish just b ecause GOD is love .
EPI doing a dangerous work on this site . as are others who often twist scrips unto their own d estruction .
My advice remains the same . STAY IN that bible and preach JESUS CHRIST and all sound doctrine .
FOR EVERY word of GOD is TRUTH and works GOOD to the hearer and the doer . TO he who beleives GOD , not men who twist his words
under guise of new revelation or etc .

 

[Marvelloustime]

verily verily i do say unto thee but once clarity is untethered from what is plainly written it is not truth but a lie
and let all who name the name of Christ heed not its imagination that clearly contradicts the scrips .
For all who do so love a lie and not the Truth .
Always they do strive about words to no profit and always they restructure what was plainly written
INTO something it never meant , and in fact IS A LIE that contradicts but made to sound like higher learning of new revealed truth .
In other words
they do exactly as this next example . For they will use truths but do so to imply a lie .
First example . HAS GOD really said ye may not eat of the trees in the garden .
And when eve told the truth and said , WE may eat of the trees of the garden , but not of the TREE
in the midst of it , for in that day we shall surely die ,
What did this master of new revelation present to her
A LIE and yet used truth to do so . watch closely my friend .
NAY nay YE shall not surely die , LIE
Ye shall become as gods to know good and evil , truth . CAUSE EVEN GOD said THEY have become as us to know good and evil .
SO ya see HE uses a truth but does so to imply a lie as well . As do many others i might add .
PRIME example of this one .
Has CHRIST , has GOD really said That if you beleive NOT ye shall die in your sins , perish .
And the correct response is , WHY YES , HE who beleives shall b e saved but he who believes not shall be damned .
THEN ENTERS the voice of the liar
NAY NAY ye shall not surely perish , FOR GOD IS LOVE . YOU SEE how he lies but uses A truth to make it seem
like one wont perish just b ecause GOD is love .
EPI doing a dangerous work on this site . as are others who often twist scrips unto their own d estruction .
My advice remains the same . STAY IN that bible and preach JESUS CHRIST and all sound doctrine .
FOR EVERY word of GOD is TRUTH and works GOOD to the hearer and the doer . TO he who beleives GOD , not men who twist his words
under guise of new revelation or etc .

@amigo de christo

 

[Marvelloustime]

Without FAITH it is impossible to please HIM .
If one has not faith in GOD and BELEIVE that HE IS , then impossible it is to please HIM .
And if one has NOT faith in JESUS CHRIST , then they absolutely have not Faith IN GOD who sent HIM .
For without ME ye can do NOTHING .
But as you can well see and discern there are folks who t hink
OH YES I CAN as they put the horsey into the cart BELEIVING this can be done WITHOUT FAITH IN CHRIST .
Talk about delusion . The very jews were cast out due to unbelief .
They too sought to DO by their own efforts to a ttain righteousness .
GOD desires Obediance above all things .
AND IT is HE who has testified of the SON , that at the
feet of CHRIST shall every tongue confess . GOD chose how to save the world
and SEEING IT IS HE who saves , THEN its about time these folks
start GIVING HIM such GLORY and thus HONOR THE SON . Its time with double effort
to remind this people OF the dire need TO BELIEVE ON JESUS THE CHRIST . To the trenches one and all .

@amigo de christo

 

[Wrangler]

What a surprise; Marvelloustime posted after amigo de christo. Who could have seen that coming?