WalterandDebbie
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Is Jesus the Saviour of the whole World?
- Thread starter Episkopos
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Well, God the Father and God the Holy Spirit are not... and God the Son ~ God's Christ, our Lord and Savior ~ is both God and man, which qualifies Him as our Mediator. Right, Beebster? Yeah. <smile>
Yes, if he doesn't overrule His desire and... well, suppress His desire, instead of compromising anything about Himself, which would be to some extent step on and therefore diminish His own glory, which of course He would never do. So, again, He suppresses His own desire in the case of "desiring all men to come to the truth," for righteous, holy, uncompromising reasons. Specifically, He can never compromise His perfect holiness and justice.
Ah, yes, well, like many other things in the Bible, Beebster, the word 'desire' can mean slightly different things; it depends on the context in which it appears. What Job says here is in a slightly different context from what Paul says in 1 Timothy 2:4. Again, now God is not conflicted, of course, but what if God has ~ and He does, in this case, have competing desires of His heart, desires that conflict with each other, and cannot both be fulfilled... one has to be chosen over the other? This is not a new question; I asked it of you in my previous post in a different way and directly above. To be clear, we both agree that God is perfect in all His character and attributes, one of which is His justice. He cannot, will not, compromise His perfect justice; if He did, He would compromise Himself and diminish His own glory, which, again, He will not do. So, again, He suppresses His own desires occasionally because... well, I'll put it this way... because He has a "competing" desire that is greater. We do the same thing from time to time... on a lesser level of course.
Not everyone will be saved.
Continued below...
I know. <smile>
You might want to start a new thread on it... <enter sarcasm here; smile> I don't think it's never been discussed on this forum...
Sure. Agreed.
Hmmmm... okay, very succinctly for now at least:
- Dispensational theology interprets the Bible through distinct periods (dispensations) in God's plan... it posits that there are seven distinct, chronological dispensations, the last two being Grace and Kingdom/millennium. The central tenet is that God’s redemptive plan changes over time. It holds to a separation of Israel and the New Testament Church as two distinct peoples and that God's promises are only effective unto Israel and not the Church, among other things.
- Covenant theology says that God sovereignly and establishes the relationship with His creatures. The divine covenant given after the Fall is, fundamentally, one in which God binds Himself by His own oath to keep His promises. This does not change over time, but is progressively revealed through the Bible... the ordered account of the covenant of grace include the covenant of life (made first with Adam [Adamic] and then remade with Noah [Noahic], the covenant of land and a people with Abraham [Abrahamic], the covenant of the law with Moses [Mosaic], and the covenant of kingship with David [Davidic]. These lesser covenants are not null and void but build on each other and finally culminate in Jesus Christ, Who is the embodiment of all the lesser covenants, the One Who is the way, the truth, and the life, along with Whom all who are in Christ will inherit the earth, Who Himself is the true Law, and our Forever King.
This statement alone, in view of what I wrote directly above, is... problematic. I'll just point out a couple of things... well, three... that Paul says in Romans that, taken together, cannot be reconciled with what you say here:
- "a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God" (2:28-29)
- "not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but 'Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.' This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring" (9:6-8)
- "...a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And in this way all Israel will be saved..." (11:25-26)
Yes, I know. <smile> Consider this. In Romans 8, Paul says the following:
"we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom He foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that He might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom He predestined He also called, and those whom He called He also justified, and those whom He justified He also glorified."
Can you not see that in every instance of Paul's use of "those." he is referring to a group of people less than all people? The clear inferences in what Paul says there is that;
- not all love Him (so God does not work all things together for the good of those who don't love Him),
- God does not foreknow ~ which is synonymous with fore-love and fore-choose ~ everyone, and because of this, progressively speaking:
- God does not predestine everyone to be conformed to the image of His Son
- God does not justify everyone
- God does not... will not... glorify everyone
Well, in Christ we do. We are not to judge now, in this life. Christ sits in heaven at the right hand of God. Yes, we are seated with Him in the Spirit, so in this sense we are reigning with Christ even now. We are in Christ. But again, for now, in this life, we do not... cannot... sit in judgment of anyone. And we will not judge in the final Judgment; only Christ does that. And we will be judged also in the final Judgment, as we see in Jesus's depiction of it in Matthew 25:31-46, but we will be the ones on Jesus's right.
<chuckles> See directly above.
I was just emphasizing it. The very fact that in Revelation 20:4-6 there is a "first resurrection," there is necessarily, by inference a second. The nature of the two is different, the first spiritual... it's what Paul speaks of in being raised with Christ from death in sin to life in Christ by the Holy Spirit in Ephesians 2:4-10. Yes, there is a second resurrection, and it is physical and general, and will take place when Christ returns... what Paul speaks of in 1 Thessalonians 4:16, when "the dead in Christ will rise first," which strongly implies there will be some rising second, after the dead in Christ the first. The latter is what Christ is talking about in John 5:28-29, when He says, "Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear His voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment."
No... <smile> See directly above...
Right, that's the second resurrection... well, having just occurred...
Hmmm... Well, all are resurrected, but some are still dead in their sin; they are the ones on Jesus's left in Matthew 25...
Well, His is the resurrection that guarantees the uniting of God's elect ~ since "we have been united with Him in a death like His" ~ "we shall certainly be united with Him in a resurrection like His," as Paul says in Romans 6:5.
Absolutely.
Continued below...
From above...
Well, yes, in the New Heaven and New Earth, there will be no more death. So it will be completely destroyed. However... those on Jesus's left will be sent away to... <shudder> ...and this is a final death, the second death... and destruction... a total loss of life with and in Christ, Who is the life, and destruction in the sense of absolute ruinousness... from which there is no hope of redemption or return... <shudder>
Well, yes, in the New Heaven and New Earth, there will be no more death.
Interesting...
Oh, I see. A misunderstanding, I guess. Jesus is God, right? But Jesus was speaking to God there in His humanity. But even elsewhere, Jesus says to His disciples (and us by extension), "I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will but the will of Him Who sent Me." But likewise, He's speaking to them (and us) in His humanity, and in human terms.
Right.
I mean you're kind of talking about several things here... It's both. Or all three... <smile> We should think of God's working in us as working in our hearts, by His Spirit. In turn, we freely use our will... we will and work for and to His pleasure. We probably can't fully understand, but somehow... I guess the best way to say it is His working in our hearts and our free will are in conjunction with each other.
We can't know exactly when; the text does not say; the only thing we can know is, ... shortly afterward (which may be minutes, days, or... years, we can't know). But Cain and Abel knew about God and (at least) that offerings to God were necessary, so someone presumably taught them that, and that would presumably be Adam and Eve as their parents. There is no record of God having spoken to Cain or Abel about anything (previous to Cain's murder of Abel). But obviously, Abel was converted to Christ, while Abel was not. Like Isaac and Ishmael, and like Jacob and Esau...
Disagree. He fell into sin in Genesis 3. Now, if you were to change that a bit and say God knew He would sin... and thus knew that Jesus's atonement on the cross was going to be necessary, then I would agree...
Sure. Yeah, it's a lot. <smile> I tried to split it up into specific topics; maybe we can do that...
Same here! Some others here not so much... <smile> But yes, grace and peace to you.
<chuckles> <SIGH> Not completely, I guess, because he (Fuller) was wrong about some things. But Fuller did believe much more along the same lines as Calvin and Augustine before him, and that's a good thing. So yes, I'm generally in the same camp as he regarding what God said, I guess you could say, rather than (as you apparently are) Pelagius or Arminius. And God... you know... doesn't lie... <chuckles>
Grace and peace to you too. <smile>
chuckles So you just confirmed what I said friend, you accept fullerism which I consider heresy. And you believe the whole world of 1 Jn 2:2 which has Christ as a propitiation includes the elect and the reprobate.Thats heresy
Button
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Just to toss this out there.
By the definition of Heresy, and according to the Saducees and Pharisees of the time, Jesus was a Heretic teaching Heresy.
I do accept most of what Fuller believed concerning God’s holy, inerrant, infallible Word, yes. I’ve never said otherwise.
Fair enough. I respect your thoughts on the matter. <smile>
Wow. Surely you’re not this obstinate… BF52, John says there (and I quote), Jesus “is the propitiation for our sins…” (the elect), “..,and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.” So, yes, that includes everyone. But the fact that He is the propitiation for the whole world, though, BrightFame52…
Aside: is that supposed to be “BrightFlame”? If so that’s kinda funny… <smile>
…does not then mean that the whole world is saved, as I have said. Christ’s atonement is sufficient for all, but not effectual unto salvation for all (the whole world). It is only effectual unto salvation for the elect, those who God has given His mercy and compassion, those who have been born again of the Spirit and are thus in Christ and sons of the living God.
John ~ as do Paul and other Biblical writers and even Jesus Himself ~ makes a very clear distinction between the elect and the world.
Hopefully you believe that, but if you don’t, so be it.
Pish. But think what you like.
Go well. Grace and peace to you.
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So then you accept heresy
More heresy
Yes it does, if Christ is one propitiation with God, they are saved forever, and forgiven and God is at peace with them
In your (errant) opinion, apparently ~ and astoundingly ~ yes... <smile>
More stupidity...
No, it doesn't. If you think it does, then you're accusing the apostle John of at the very least being wrong, and even God Himself, as He is the true Author of His Word. All of which... is just astounding. Yeah, wow.
The elect, yes, but not the rest of the world. You're just being very... hard-headed. But, as I said, fair enough. <smile>
Grace and peace to you.
Then the rest of the world wasnt part of the whole world of 1 Jn 2:2, this is just the elect
No you wrong, John, Myself and God are right. Also you diminish the efficacy of Christs Propitiatory work, by indicating its for people who are lost.
Totally senseless.
You are more than welcome to your opinion, as I have said.
Not at all. I know what you mean, and why you think this, but you are mistaken. John clearly says, in 1 John 2:2, that Christ's propitiatory work is for ~ for, in the sense of sufficiency, not in the sense of effectuality ~ not just the elect but also the whole world. And the unavoidable inference of that is that His propitiatory work is effectual only for the elect... according to God's purpose of election. So, Christ's propitiatory work ~ as is His atonement for sin itself ~ is unlimited in the former sense (sufficiency), but limited in the latter sense (effectualness). The latter sense is where John Calvin's 'L,' ~ limited atonement ~ is firmly based... limited, by God, according to His purpose, to the elect, and therefore Christ's work is 100 percent effective, which is an absolute refutation of your point here.
But yet you clearly misunderstand. But... it's okay. It still is what it is. As Peter says (quoting Isaiah), "All flesh is like grass and all its glory like the flower of grass. The grass withers, and the flower falls, but the word of the Lord remains forever" (1 Peter 1:24-25)
We're done here.
Grace and peace to you.
Beebster
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Holy spirit is the Fathers spirit which he gave to his son.
And yes Christ is the perfect man and does not posess a carnal wishy-washy mind that changes.
Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever (eon). (Heb 13:8)
For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed. (Mal 3:6)
Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. (Jas 1:17)
No, I just don't buy that explanation.
Ther we have three witnesses that tell us God does not change.
I'm sorry but competing desires would be considered conflict.
To say- "God is not conflicted, of course,
-then to say: "in this case, have competing desires of His heart, desires that conflict with each other, and cannot both be fulfilled"
-is contradictory.
Now you do set this statement off with: "but what if God has" opening up a question, but then you say: "and He does, in this case,"
Which also contradicts.
God does not change. God is in control.
Fourth witness:
Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: (Isa 46:10)
God has a purpose and it cannot be thwarted; not even by the will of man.
Agreed.
Agreed.
And on that I disagree.
We are being created in God's image, not the other way around.
Thats what most people say about the Gospel Truth
Yes you do. You believe Christ has died for people without His Death saving them. Thats an attack on its efficacy to save.
Beebster
Active Member
Yes that is true. These are God's chosen, his Elect.
Yes Christ's seed.
And here is where we disagree.
This not a "partial hardening" it is "blindness in part."
In other words it is their turn to take a back seat, but only until.......
Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
That's right physical Israel is blinded, not partially blinded, but completely blinded but only UNTIL
"the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
And the very next verse:
Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Yes all Israel shall be saved.
Notice:
Rom 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
Yes God will takes away their sins.
Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
Why has Israel been blinded? For you sakes.
So that God's elect can fulfill his marvelous purpose.
Rom 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
Rom 11:30 For as ye (gentiles) in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their (Israel) unbelief:
Rom 11:31 Even so have these (Israel) also now not believed, that through your (gentile) mercy they also may obtain mercy.
So yes, through the mercy of the gentiles, Israel will also obtain mercy.
Now just to be clear it is the gentile nations through which the Christian faith is preached not the nation of Israel. However not all gentiles are God's Elect.
Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
Both gentile and Jew have had, and have, their "part" in being blinded.
First the gentile, then the Jew.
Luk 13:30 And, behold, there are last which shall be first, and there are first which shall be last.
That is a prevelent theme throughout scripture.
Does the last equate to annihilation?
Of course not.
It is through the Christian faith, that the elect are first called, then chosen, whether physical Jew or physical gentile, to become a spiritual Jew.
Peace.
Button
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They are one and the same thing. Just because it is translated a little differently in the ESV and the... whatever your version here is; the KJV? No matter... does not make them different to any degree in meaning. The ESV is better for us today just because of the antiquated language of the KJV. At any rate, Biblically, if one is blinded, he/she is also hardened; the terms are synonyms of each other.
Hmmm... So you think this even though the text actually says "partially." Interesting... <smile> I think you need to try to understand this with what Paul says in Romans 9:6 in mind, Beebster, particularly that "not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel... it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring."
Well, right, but not all physical Israel, not all ethnic Jews, not all of the physical nation-state we call Israel today, but God's Israel, which while it contains many ethnic Jews, consists of Jews and Gentiles. Again, "not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel." As I have repeatedly pointed out ~ not just to you but many others here ~ Paul defines who is of God's Israel, who are God's Jews, in Romans 2:28-29, saying, "no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God."
Irrevocable, Beebster. Meaning, once God has given us these gifts and has called us unto Himself, these things will not be revoked ~ will not be taken away ~ by anyone for any reason (as if they could, anyway; it is really about God Himself). His promises all have their 'yes' and 'amen' in Christ Jesus.
Hmmm... <smile>
The Christian faith is available to be given to all Gentiles now, as opposed to before Jesus came. And God's Israel ~ at any point in time from Adam up to now ~ consists only of those who God has called. Together, we are all of God's Israel.
Of course not. And not all ethnic Jews. Ethnicity is really of no consequence with regard to salvation. God has mercy and compassion on whom he has mercy and compassion (Exodus 33, Romans 9).
The calling of God is issued inwardly to God's elect at their own appointed time (as in Acts 13:48, "when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed"... by the Holy Spirit. This is a different thing than the outward call of the Gospel, which goes out to everyone.
The choosing ~ by God, of course ~ is from before the foundation of the world... "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him" (Ephesians 1:3-4).
This is intimately related to what Paul says in Romans 9 of Jacob and Esau, that "though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad ~ in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of Him Who calls"... and what John says in 1 John 4:19, that "we love because He first loved us."
Right.
Grace and peace to you, Beebster.
Beebster
Active Member
Not quite.
Yes we agree that God has a chosen people, but what we dont agree on is his purpose.
Throughout Romans 9-11 you can read where Paul is sorrowful for his kinsman.
He wants his kinsman to be saved (elect) but he knows that only a remnant will be chosen.
The rest, however, shall be saved which I've already gone through in my last post.
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