Could Ezekiel 37, 38 and 39 all be post millennial?

[Hiddenthings]

I believe that these words in Revelation 19 are meant to suggest the mass slaughter of humans who are killed by the Divine wrath of the Spirit of God which proceeds out of the mouth of Christ:

What part of Rev 19 are you referring to?

 

[Zao is life]

I'm not interested in going into detail about what all of the symbolism means, but I'll just say that I believe it's all symbolism and none of it is literal. What I would like to know is do you believe that mass physical destruction will occur when Jesus returns? If so, what exactly do you think will cause it? This is what I was asking Davidpt about when you chimed in and said it would be with swords. Based on what you've said about 2 Peter 3:10-12, you don't think it will be literal fire. So, what else would cause it? Or do you not believe any physical destruction will occur when Jesus returns?

Yes, they were destroyed by the flood waters. So, how exactly do you think "the Divine wrath of the Spirit of God which proceeds out of the mouth of Christ" will physically kill people? How does that work?

Yes. To me, it's metaphorically talking about the destruction of unbelievers at Christ's return which I believe will be literally caused by literal fire. I'm not clear on how exactly you think they will be physically destroyed/killed.

I don't really know what it means for the Refiner's fire to cause physical death. I'm obviously fully convinced that it will be literal fire, but it will be controlled by God and not just some random fire coming down on the earth. Similar to what happened with Sodom and Gomorrah except it will also involve regenerating/renewing the earth, resulting in the new earth. Do you believe that Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed by literal fire?

All I know is that these passages are all talking about the judgment / wrath of God coming upon all flesh at the time of the return of Christ / the Day of Christ:

1. Revelation 19:11-21
2. 2 Thessalonians 2:8
3. 2 Peter 3:7-12.

1. Revelation 19 speaks about the flesh of those whose names are not written in the Lamb's Book of Life, saying that they will be killed by the sword proceeding out of the mouth of Christ.
2. 2 Thessalonians 2:7 speaks about the son of perdition being consumed with the Spirit of the Lord's mouth.

3. 2 Peter 3:7-12 talks about the judgment and perdition of ungodly men being destroyed by fire, in the day the stoicheion (rudiments / principles) of this world are luo (loosed) and the earth / land and the ergon (works of men) are burned up.

The above passages are all talking about the same Day of Christ.

IMO the above passages suggest that it's not the fire consisting of whatever chemical reactions are taking place in the type of fire we see around the BBQ.

It's fire indeed - but a very different sort of fire - and being consumed by it = damnation by the Spirit of God.

Possibly what "the lake of fire" is referring to.

 

[Zao is life]

What part of Rev 19 are you referring to?

Are you just pretending that you're ignorant, or are you truly unable to see the words anywhere between verses 11 and 21 of Revelation 19?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

All I know is that these passages are all talking about the judgment / wrath of God coming upon all flesh at the time of the return of Christ / the Day of Christ:

1. Revelation 19:11-21
2. 2 Thessalonians 2:8
3. 2 Peter 3:7-12.

Agree.

1. Revelation 19 speaks about the flesh of those whose names are not written in the Lamb's Book of Life, saying that they will be killed by the sword proceeding out of the mouth of Christ.
2. 2 Thessalonians 2:7 speaks about the son of perdition being consumed with the Spirit of the Lord's mouth.

3. 2 Peter 3:7-12 talks about the judgment and perdition of ungodly men being destroyed by fire, in the day the stoicheion (rudiments / principles) of this world are luo (loosed) and the earth / land and the ergon (works of men) are burned up.

The above passages are all talking about the same Day of Christ.

Agree, except for your understanding of what the word stoicheion represents in that passage. You, of course, already know that I disagree with that.

IMO the above passages suggest that it's not the fire consisting of whatever chemical reactions are taking place in the type of fire we see around the BBQ.

IMO it clearly is, especially when you look at 2 Peter 3:6-7. I don't believe it makes any sense to think that Peter would compare a literal, physical global destruction event (the flood in Noah's day) to a metaphorical event. He compared like events (both global, both physical).

It's fire indeed - but a very different sort of fire - and being consumed by it = damnation by the Spirit of God.

Possibly what "the lake of fire" is referring to.

People being cast into the lake of fire is a separate event from living people on the earth being physically destroyed. The fire of Revelation 20:9 that comes down from heaven to destroy people is not the lake of fire that people get cast into, as described in Revelation 20:15.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Are you just pretending that you're ignorant, or are you truly unable to see the words anywhere between verses 11 and 21 of Revelation 19?

You mean where it states he will rule the nations with a rod of Iron? The same promise he made in Rev 2:27.

Sounds like he's going to be inflexible with his commands during this time.

 

[Zao is life]

IMO it clearly is, especially when you look at 2 Peter 3:6-7. I don't believe it makes any sense to think that Peter would compare a literal, physical global destruction event (the flood in Noah's day) to a metaphorical event. He compared like events (both global, both physical).

The fire itself mentioned by Peter cannot be a metaphor IMO - it's just not produced from the reactions that take place in the chemical elements contained in the creation. It's fire - the fire of the Spirit of God that proceeds from God via the mouth of Christ - which is (a) just as real as the fire you see in a hearth or consuming a forest; and (b) infinitely more powerful than the fire occurring from natural reactions of created chemical elements

- the kind of fire you are talking about cannot regenerate the entire creation, releasing it from the bondage of decay.

Matthew 3
11 "I baptize you with water, for repentance, but the one coming after me is more powerful than I am - I am not worthy to carry his sandals. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
12 His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clean out his threshing floor and will gather his wheat into the storehouse, but the chaff he will burn up with inextinguishable fire."

People being cast into the lake of fire is a separate event from living people on the earth being physically destroyed. The fire of Revelation 20:9 that comes down from heaven to destroy people is not the lake of fire that people get cast into, as described in Revelation 20:15.

Mark 9
43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into gehennah, into the fire that never shall be quenched

How would you describe the fire in the lake of fire? 'Not fire'? How would you describe the difference?

PS: I'm not attacking because I do not 'know' anything except that I believe every word that is written - even the parts I do not fully grasp.

 

[Zao is life]

You mean where it states he will rule the nations with a rod of Iron? The same promise he made in Rev 2:27.

Sounds like he's going to be inflexible with his commands during this time.

When do the ages of the ages (translated into English as "forever and ever") begin according to Revelation 11:15?

How long is He going to be inflexible with rebels from Revelation 11:15 onward, according to Revelation 2:27?

 

[Hiddenthings]

When do the ages of the ages (translated into English as "forever and ever") begin according to Revelation 11:15?

The phrase “ages of ages” refers to successive ages, as the Millennium itself is divided into shorter periods. At the end of Christ’s thousand-year reign, the perfected Kingdom will be handed over to God (1 Corinthians 15:24). In these verses, the final consummation is mentioned first, followed by the events that lead up to it (compare verses 18–19). Rev 1:6 also reveals the Saints activities in this age. After this age "Kings and Priests" will no longer be required as God will be All in All.

How long is He going to be inflexible with rebels from Revelation 11:15 onward, according to Revelation 2:27?

Satan (sin) bound for 1000 years - Although the “beast” and the “false prophet” have been silenced, the moral regeneration of humanity still remains to be accomplished, along with the complete and final conquest of sin and death. This work will extend over a thousand years.

Paul declares, “For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death” (1 Corinthians 15:25–26). When this is achieved, a perfected Kingdom will be handed over to God, “that God may be all in all” (1 Corinthians 15:28).

Rev 20 outlines the means by which this purpose is fulfilled. Though “the dragon”, symbolizing political rebellion against the rule of God (Revelation 2:10; 12:3–4) will be subdued at Armageddon, its influence will not be entirely eliminated until the close of Christ’s reign.

Having dealt with the “beast” and the “false prophet,” Christ will then proceed to restrain the “dragon,” progressively limiting its influence until its very source, human flesh and its sinfulness is finally overcome and swallowed up in life.

If one insists on interpreting these figures as literal supernatural evil angels, the symbolic meaning of these important images will be missed. In one breath, such an interpretation may acknowledge earthly rebellion, and in the next, contradict itself by introducing fallen angels and literal wars in heaven.

You are on the right track if you understand that Christ and the saints will rule from Jerusalem, the future capital of the world. From there, he will judge the nations with a rod of iron, maintaining righteous authority. At the appointed time, sin will be released, and Christ and the saints will withdraw their restraining influence, allowing the rebels to follow their chosen course. In the end, they will be destroyed, along with death and the grave.

 

[Zao is life]

The phrase “ages of ages” refers to successive ages, as the Millennium itself is divided into shorter periods. At the end of Christ’s thousand-year reign, the perfected Kingdom will be handed over to God (1 Corinthians 15:24). In these verses, the final consummation is mentioned first, followed by the events that lead up to it (compare verses 18–19). Rev 1:6 also reveals the Saints activities in this age. After this age "Kings and Priests" will no longer be required as God will be All in All.

How does "Death is swallowed up in victory." in 1 Corinthians 15:54 relate to

"God will wipe away all tears from their eyes, and there will be no more death, nor mourning, nor crying out, nor will there be any more pain; for the first things passed away." in Revelation 21:4?

and how does it relate to

"The throne of God is among them (among those who came out from great tribulation when Christ returned), and all tears will be wiped from their eyes." (Revelation 7:13-17); and to

"The throne of God is among them, and all tears will be wiped from their eyes." in Revelation 21:2-4

- if the thousand years are a thousand years before the new heavens and new earth?

AND

How does the bride of Christ "prepared as a bride adorned for her husband." in Revelation 21:2 relate to the wife of the Lamb making herself ready in Revelation 19:7-8

- if the thousand years are a thousand years before the new heavens and new earth?

AND

How does the time coming for the dead to be judged at the time of the sounding of the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:17-18) relate to

1. What Jesus said about "the hour (that) is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation"; and to

2. The judgment of the dead in Revelation 20:11-15; and to

3. What Jesus said about "The Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory" (Matthew 25:31-33); and to

4. What Jesus said about the nations on His left going into everlasting punishment

- if the thousand years are a thousand years before the new heavens and new earth?

 

[Hiddenthings]

How does "Death is swallowed up in victory." in 1 Corinthians 15:54 relate to

"God will wipe away all tears from their eyes, and there will be no more death, nor mourning, nor crying out, nor will there be any more pain; for the first things passed away." in Revelation 21:4?

and how does it relate to

"The throne of God is among them (among those who came out from great tribulation when Christ returned), and all tears will be wiped from their eyes." (Revelation 7:13-17); and to

"The throne of God is among them, and all tears will be wiped from their eyes." in Revelation 21:2-4

- if the thousand years are a thousand years before the new heavens and new earth?

AND

How does the bride of Christ "prepared as a bride adorned for her husband." in Revelation 21:2 relate to the wife of the Lamb making herself ready in Revelation 19:7-8

- if the thousand years are a thousand years before the new heavens and new earth?

AND

How does the time coming for the dead to be judged at the time of the sounding of the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:17-18) relate to

1. What Jesus said about "the hour (that) is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation"; and to

2. The judgment of the dead in Revelation 20:11-15; and to

3. What Jesus said about "The Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory" (Matthew 25:31-33); and to

4. What Jesus said about the nations on His left going into everlasting punishment

- if the thousand years are a thousand years before the new heavens and new earth?

Seems a little messy Zao.

Are you asking when does this ultimate victory over death and suffering happen in the prophetic timeline?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You mean where it states he will rule the nations with a rod of Iron? The same promise he made in Rev 2:27.

Sounds like he's going to be inflexible with his commands during this time.

Based on the Old Testament passage being referred to, sounds like He's going to break/destroy the nations (heathen) when He comes. Which lines up with the descriptions of Him smiting the nations (heathen) and treading them in the winepress of the wrath of God in the same verse (Revelation 19:15). And also lines up with other scriptures like Matthew 24:35-39, 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-8 and 2 Peter 3:10-12.

Psalm 2:8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. 9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Based on the Old Testament passage being referred to, sounds like He's going to break/destroy the nations (heathen) when He comes. Which lines up with the descriptions of Him smiting the nations (heathen) and treading them in the winepress of the wrath of God in the same verse (Revelation 19:15). And also lines up with other scriptures like Matthew 24:35-39, 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-8 and 2 Peter 3:10-12.

Psalm 2:8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. 9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

Correct. The nations will continue to exist until Christ fulfills the promise of bringing all into the hope of Israel, a process that will span the entire duration of the Kingdom age.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Correct. The nations will continue to exist until Christ fulfills the promise of bringing all into the hope of Israel, a process that will span the entire duration of the Kingdom age.

Looks like you didn't read my post carefully at all. What Psalm 2:8-9 suggests is that Christ will DESTROY/BREAK the heathen with His rod of iron. You seem to imagine Him doing something else with His rod of iron. And other scriptures like Matthew 24:35-39, 1 Thess 5:2-3, 2 Thess 1:7-8, 2 Peter 3:10-12 and Revelation 19:11-21 indicate that He will destroy them on the day He returns, not a thousand years later.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Looks like you didn't read my post carefully at all. What Psalm 2:8-9 suggests is that Christ will DESTROY/BREAK the heathen with His rod of iron. You seem to imagine Him doing something else with His rod of iron. And other scriptures like Matthew 24:35-39, 1 Thess 5:2-3, 2 Thess 1:7-8, 2 Peter 3:10-12 and Revelation 19:11-21 indicate that He will destroy them on the day He returns, not a thousand years later.

Have you read all of Psalm 2?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Have you read all of Psalm 2?

Sure have. Are you trying to avoid addressing my post? There's nothing in Psalm 2 that contradicts anything I said in my post.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Sure have. Are you trying to avoid addressing my post? There's nothing in Psalm 2 that contradicts anything I said in my post.

You seem very defensive.

8 Ask of me, and I will make the nations your heritage, and the ends of the earth your possession

10 Now therefore, O kings, be wise; be warned, O rulers of the earth

The Psalm stands as a warning to those Kings (not all!) who reject Christ's Kingship.

This is why I asked you if you had read the Psalm.

 

[Hiddenthings]

@Spiritual Israelite

If you read the Psalm carefully you will see the “scepter/rod” symbolises both shepherding and government, with the tone determined by human response.

9 You shall break them with a rod of iron and dash them in pieces like a potter’s vessel.

“break” is what the rod (shebet) does to the rebellious, while “shepherd” is what the rod (shebet) does to the faithful.

See how Christ used Psalm 2:9 in Rev 2:27?

And he will rule them with a rod of iron, as when earthen pots are broken in pieces, even as I myself have received authority from my Father

God has given His Son authority to rule the nations and deal with them in righteousness. To mean his authority will hold dual function both to discipline and to shepherd (guide).

Hope that helps

 

[Zao is life]

Looks like you didn't read my post carefully at all. What Psalm 2:8-9 suggests is that Christ will DESTROY/BREAK the heathen with His rod of iron. You seem to imagine Him doing something else with His rod of iron. And other scriptures like Matthew 24:35-39, 1 Thess 5:2-3, 2 Thess 1:7-8, 2 Peter 3:10-12 and Revelation 19:11-21 indicate that He will destroy them on the day He returns, not a thousand years later.

Break [Psalm 2:9 H7489 ra'a] /
Smite [Revelation 19:15 G3960 patasso]

the nations.

Rule / shepherd [Revelation 19:15 G4165 poimaino] them with a rod of iron.

Matthew 2
6 And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Judah, art not the least among the princes of Judah: for out of thee shall come a Governor, that shall rule / shepherd [G4165 poimaino] my people Israel.

Revelation 7
17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed [G4165 poimaino] them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

Revelation 2
26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
27 And he shall rule / shepherd [G4165 poimaino] them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

Revelation 19:15
(a) And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that WITH IT (with the sharp sword proceeding from His mouth) he should SMITE the nations:

(b) and he shall rule / shepherd [G4165 poimaino] them with a rod of iron:

(c) and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Your argument is a logical fallacy. You really should stop using that argument IMO - especially because you always mention that all authority in heaven and on earth has already been placed in Christ's hands.

@Hiddenthings is correct about the meaning of the above.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You seem very defensive.

I'm not. At all. But, you seem very evasive.

8 Ask of me, and I will make the nations your heritage, and the ends of the earth your possession

10 Now therefore, O kings, be wise; be warned, O rulers of the earth

The Psalm stands as a warning to those Kings (not all!) who reject Christ's Kingship.

This is why I asked you if you had read the Psalm.

How convenient for you to leave out verse 9. Are you just ignoring the part where it says He will break/destroy the heathen? Have you ever read Revelation 19:15-18? Does that look like a description of Jesus reigning over the heathen as you falsely think He will or does it describe Him destroying them? It pretty clearly describes Him as destroying them. Can you tell me why you ignore these details?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

@Spiritual Israelite

If you read the Psalm carefully you will see the “scepter/rod” symbolises both shepherding and government, with the tone determined by human response.

9 You shall break them with a rod of iron and dash them in pieces like a potter’s vessel.

“break” is what the rod (shebet) does to the rebellious, while “shepherd” is what the rod (shebet) does to the faithful.

See how Christ used Psalm 2:9 in Rev 2:27?

And he will rule them with a rod of iron, as when earthen pots are broken in pieces, even as I myself have received authority from my Father

God has given His Son authority to rule the nations and deal with them in righteousness. To mean his authority will hold dual function both to discipline and to shepherd (guide).

Hope that helps

It does not help at all. You are completely ignoring the fact that John references Psalm 2:9 in relation to Jesus destroying His enemies in Revelation 19:15. What are you going to tell me next, that the description of smiting the nations (heathen) has nothing to do with Him destroying them? Are you going to tell me that Him treading the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God is a description of Him playing patty cakes with the nations/heathen and singing Kumbaya with them? What you call discipline of the nations/heathen is described in terms of complete destruction in the scriptural text. You are completely ignoring the context of the scriptures we're discussing.