Right.
I meant the comment about the 10 commandments to be in general as to the moral aspect.
Shoulda been more clear.
Can One Be Christian and Not Believe In The Trinity?
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I meant the comment about the 10 commandments to be in general as to the moral aspect.
Shoulda been more clear.
We're not ALLOWED to have doubts as to someone's CHRISTIANITY.
I'm addressing the tenets of the CHRISTIAN RELIGION...
not a person's Christianity.
It seems to me that if you're worshipping Jesus in some kind way, however it may be...
but He is NOT GOD....
then you're worshipping a man...
even if that man is the Messiah.
The Messiah was never meant to be God.
There are even well documented explicitly anti-Sabbath writings from the early church:
"If you keep the Sabbath, why not also be circumcised? And if circumcised, why not also offer sacrifices? If the Law is to be observed, it must be observed in its entirety"
Justin Martyr, cca 100-165 AD
"If, then, those who had lived according to the ancient practices came to the newness of hope, no longer keeping the Sabbath but living in accordance with the Lord’s day"...
“It is absurd to profess Christ and to Judaize.”
Ignatios to Magnesians, 110 AD
“It follows, accordingly, that, in so far as the abolition of carnal circumcision and of the old law is demonstrated as having been consummated at its specific times, so also the observance of the Sabbath is demonstrated to have been temporary.”
Tertullian, An Answer to the Jews 4:1, 200 AD
"They [the early saints of the Old Testament] did not care about circumcision of the body, neither do we [Christians]. They did not care about observing Sabbaths, nor do we"
Eusebius of Caesarea, Church History 1:4:8, 312 AD
"Fall not away either into the sect of the Samaritans or into Judaism, for Jesus Christ has henceforth ransomed you. Stand aloof from all observance of Sabbaths and from calling any indifferent meats common or unclean"
Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures 4:37, 350 AD
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I would say about six or seven from the ten are morally universal...Right.
I meant the comment about the 10 commandments to be in general as to the moral aspect.
Shoulda been more clear.
I wish I had a complete set of the writings.
Not offered here in English and it would cost a fortune to have the set shipped here.
Thanks for doing my work for me!
I guess you read in Italian well... are there no "Early church writings" editions in Italian? Or, possibly, some EU based Amazon store, like amazon.de
The shipping is a problem.
I read Italian but it's not my mother tongue and I can't retain what I read.
The online stuff is too limited.
I have David Bercot's book but that's too limited too.
A thought would be to get only those I really want...
like Ignatius for instance.
Just thought of it....!
Just a thought, if you have some e-reader. What about downloading those writings you want, in any format, and then telling some AI to create epub format from the downloaded material? That might work.
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Many people who read the Bible see a God who is very strict and unchanging but don't realize just how much that it is his creation that is changing and just because God changes the way he communicates and provides judgment and salvation and restoration for his creation that is itself changing - does not mean that God himself is changing.
the Bible explains here in " Heb 1 " that there have been many, many ways, also many various ways the God has spoken to his creation
in the last days --- of the many ways, also as one of the various ways - he spoke to them in his son
we see from the beginning of the creation that humankind is disobeying and rejecting God and based upon humankinds actions in the way we change God also changes the way he communicates and provides judgment and salvation and restoration for his creation
i believe that what humans label or call or consider the Trinity is simply one of the many, many ways, also many various ways the God has spoken to his creation. It is all the same God working and expressing himself in how he sees best to bring communication, judgment and salvation and restoration to his creation that is changing itself......
... and God is not changing himself but has given the gift of the Spirit of Holy to all who will receive this free gift through his son Jesus Christ.
this is given to the world
Many people who read the Bible see a God who is very strict and unchanging but don't realize just how much that it is his creation that is changing and just because God changes the way he communicates and provides judgment and salvation and restoration for his creation that is itself changing - does not mean that God himself is changing.
the Bible explains here in " Heb 1 " that there have been many, many ways, also many various ways the God has spoken to his creation
in the last days --- of the many ways, also as one of the various ways - he spoke to them in his son
we see from the beginning of the creation that humankind is disobeying and rejecting God and based upon humankinds actions in the way we change God also changes the way he communicates and provides judgment and salvation and restoration for his creation
i believe that what humans label or call or consider the Trinity is simply one of the many, many ways, also many various ways the God has spoken to his creation. It is all the same God working and expressing himself in how he sees best to bring communication, judgment and salvation and restoration to his creation that is changing itself......
... and God is not changing himself but has given the gift of the Spirit of Holy to all who will receive this free gift through his son Jesus Christ.
this is given to the world
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Adventageous
Well-Known Member
You are incorrect on the matter of muslims. Islam teaches that it may slay infidels (non-believers), in Surah 9. It has murder built right in.
According to islam, 'stealing' only applies to other muslims, or from stealing from muslims, not from non-muslims, since Islam teaches that it can capture other peoples (non-muslims) property, women, money, etc. They do not consider that stealing.
According to Islam, they also do not believe in monogamy, but may have up to 4 wives, and all the concubines they can equally provide for (even if that equality is providing the bare minimum to each).
Monogamy is also not practiced in many heathen cutltures.
Adventageous
Well-Known Member
That is a really long list. You can see some of those things here:
- https://dn710205.ca.archive.org/0/items/godhead-10/Godhead 31.jpg
or here - The Seven Trumpets Of Revelation - God's Great Trump : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
However, in matters of the Ten Commandments, you can read that here (page 30) - The 7th Day The Sabbath - The Rest Of His Eternal Story (by Aaron Earnest) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
The official website for the vatican.va is here (scroll down to see the same material as on page 30) - Compendium of the Catechism of the Catholic Church
Adventageous
Well-Known Member
I address the history of the sabbath and the early church here (pages 186-361) - The 7th Day The Sabbath - The Rest Of His Eternal Story (by Aaron Earnest) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
I have read the real history. You should too (not attempting to be harsh, just an invitation to do the same).
I address the so called 'didache' in my book. Did you read it? (Pro, 18:13,17 KJB), If not, why not? It doesn't say what you think it does. Do you need me to copy my material and post it here? I will. See page 159 - The 7th Day The Sabbath - The Rest Of His Eternal Story (by Aaron Earnest) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
"What about ‘the Didache’?
“... [Greek] (14) 1. Κατὰ κυριακὴν δὲ κυρίου συναχθέντες κλάσατε ἄρτον καὶ εὐχαριστήσατε, προεξομολογησάμενοι τὰ παραπτώματα ὑμῶν, ὅπως καθαρὰ ἡ θυσία ὑμῶν ᾐ. ...” - The Twelve Apostles-Didache
“... [English] (14) 1. According to Lord’s own of [the] Lord, gather, break bread and give thanks, having confessed your faults before, that your offering be pure. ...”
The original Greek of Didache 14:1 does not have the words for “day”, “days”, “Sunday”, “day of the sun”, “first”, “one”, “week”, “first [day] of the week”, “the Lord’s day”, the “eighth day”. The often proffered translation of the Didache into English that most propose to prove ‘Sunday sacredness’, or that ‘the first [day] of the week’, is the ‘Lord’s day’, is quite imaginary, or at the very least extremely interpolative. Even if the meaning is “the Lord’s [day] of Lord” it does not indicate which “[day]” is meant. It might mean the “Resurrection [day] (ie. what some call ‘Resurrection Sunday’, or ‘Easter’)”, being one day in the year during the ending of the Passion week. It might mean a weekly “[day]”, which just as well could be the 7th day, the Sabbath day, or the true Lord’s day (Isa. 58:13; Rev. 1:10 KJB). It might even mean the “Lord’s [feast-supper] of [the] Lord”, in which persons could gather on any day and partake of throughout the year, not merely weekly. It could mean a weekly meeting on the first [day], but there is no definitive contextual demonstration of such. Anyone who says otherwise, is simply not being honest with the Greek text at hand."
It could even be referring to people, the disciples "the Lord's own", etc. In other words, follow their instruction / example after the Lord (Jesus), and their instruction / example was sabbath keeping. See the resources in the links.
Act. 20:7 does not begin on "sunday" (midnight to midnight, Roman time), but begins 'saturday night' (which is scriptural 'first [day]' time), as it says, "many lights in the upper chamber", and later "midnight", &c.. I also address that specific text in what it says in both koine Greek and in English in a section of the book as well. Did you read that? If not, why not? Do you not want to see a response to the common errors people bring up (such as you just did, not knowing the details)?
Acts 20:7 is a one-time event, beginning saturday night, after sunset, when the 7th day sabbath had ended, and Paul and the disciples at Troas, met again after sundown to have a final farewell meeting and fellowship meal, since Paul was leaving them ("ready to depart on the morrow"), pretty much permanently after that. The context is the 7 weeks (7 sabbaths) unto Pentecost, which is why the koine Greek says, "εν δε τη μια των σαββατων" (in of the first/one [of] the sabbaths (plural)), since it was the first day of the first week of 7 sabbaths, counting towards Pentecost; see
Act 20:16 For Paul had determined to sail by Ephesus, because he would not spend the time in Asia: for he hasted, if it were possible for him, to be at Jerusalem the day of Pentecost.
Pentecost, known in scripture as shavuot, or the 'feast of weeks' (7 sabbaths, + 1 day; Lev. 23:15-22). This was a once in the year event (a typology of the true Pentecost in Acts 2.).Acts 20 is not a weekly reoccurence. Why do you make it one? If you attempt to follow this pattern as a weekly example, do you:
1. Meet at a house gathering at night, 'saturday night' after having kept sabbath (see koine Greek) the day before?
2. Does your pastor preach until midnight?
3. Do you have a common meal at night (Act. 2:46; 20:7), and again at around midnight (Act. 20:11)?
4. Does the guest evangelist continue to keep preaching until sunrise (sunday morning)?
5. Does the guest evangelist leave, and walk to his next meeting at sun up ('sunday morning')?
Please, see pages 47 - 50, as it is only a few (4) short pages of the details, as there is a lot more I would ask you about that text, in its proper context - The 7th Day The Sabbath - The Rest Of His Eternal Story (by Aaron Earnest) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
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This would be a nonsensical translation, obviously. The translation makes sense basically only if the first word - kyriaké - is about a specific time.
What it means is known from Christian history - it means Sunday. Even till this day, the word for Sunday in Greek is Kyriaké.
This demonstrates that we can not just take one writing or even a sentence and isolate it from the broader first Church context. The context (even the cultural context) is what determines the meaning.
“Let us therefore no longer keep the Sabbath after the Jewish manner, but live according to the Lord’s life; let every one of you keep the Lord’s day(Greek: Κυριακῇ ἡμέρᾳ), the day on which our life arose.”
(Ignatius, Magnesians 9.1)
What can we know from this text? That the day of the Lord for Christian assemblies was not the Sabbath day and that the day was called "Kyriaké" or "Kyriaké hémera".
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Adventageous
Well-Known Member
It's like you did not read my book (Pro. 18:13,17 KJB), and the source material therein at all. I address this beginning on page 155 (both the longer and shorter forms which do not agree, and do not say what you think it does in Greek; there is no word "hemera" there at all, it's interpolated into it, incorrectly) - The 7th Day The Sabbath - The Rest Of His Eternal Story (by Aaron Earnest) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
Ignatius (supposedly), in The Epistle of Ignatius to the Magnesians, the shorter & longer forms:
“... [Greek] [Cap. ix (9); shorter] IX 1. Εἰ οὖν οἱ ἐν παλαιοῖς πράγμασιν ἀναστρα. φέντες εἰς καινότητα ἐλπίδος ἦλθον, μηκέτι σαββατίζοντες, ἀλλὰ κατὰ κυριακὴν ζῶντες, ἐν ᾗ καὶ ἡ ζωὴ ἡμῶν ἀνέτειλεν δι’ αὐτοῦ καὶ τοῦ θανάτου αὐτοῦ, ὅν τινες ἀρνοῦνται, δι’ οὗ μυστηρίου ἐλάβομεν τὸ πιστεύειν, καὶ διὰ τοῦτο ὑπομένομεν, ἵνα εὑρεθῶμεν μαθηταὶ Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ τοῦ μόνου διδασκάλου ἡμῶν· ...” - Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Magnesians: Shorter and Longer Versions
“... [Greek; page 43] [Cap. ix (9); longer] Aὐτὸς ἥξει καὶ σώσει ἡμᾶς; μηκέτι οὖν σαββατίζωμεν ἰουδαϊκῶς καὶ ἀργίαις χαίροντες· Ὁ μὴ ἐργαζόμενος γὰρ μὴ ἐσθιέτω· καὶ πάλιν· Ἐν ἱδρῶτι γὰρ τοῦ προσώπου σου φάγῃ τὸν ἄρτον σου, φασὶ τὰ λόγια. ἀλλ' ἕκαστος ὑμῶν σαββατιζέτω πνευματικῶς, μελέτῃ νόμων χαίρων, οὐ σώματος ἀνέσει, δημιουργίαν θεοῦ θαυμάζων, οὐχ ἕωλα ἐσθίων καὶ χλιαρὰ πίνων καὶ μεμετρημένα βαδίζων καὶ ὀρχήσει καὶ κρότοις νοῦν οὐκ ἔχουσι χαίρων· καὶ μετὰ τὸ σαββατίσαι ἑορταζέτω πᾶς φιλόχριστος τὴν κυριακήν, τὴν ἀναστάσιμον, τὴν βασιλίδα, τὴν ὕπατον πασῶν τῶν ἡμερῶν, ἣν περιμένων ὁ προφήτης ἔλεγεν· Eἰς τὸ τέλος, ὑπὲρ τῆς ὀγδόης·ἐν ᾗ καὶ ἡ ζωὴ ἡμῶν ἀνέτειλεν, καὶ τοῦ θανάτου γέγονε νίκη ἐν Χριστῷ· ὃν τὰ τέκνα τῆς ἀπωλείας ἀρνοῦνται ...” - https://khazarzar.skeptik.net/pgm/P...PG 05/extras/PG_05-Ignatios_Antioch_epist.doc
Show me the word "hemera" after "kyriaken". It doesn't exist.
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Adventageous
Well-Known Member
Not if it is relating to people, rather than time. The Lord's own, referring to the Disciples, of the Lord. You see, you have to read into what you want, not read it for what it says. You are interpolating to justify your a prioric. I have no need to do that.
Hi Seeding
Welcome to the Forum !
I hope I haven't misunderstood your post.
You're saying that God can change the way He communicates with us.
You said that His creation (us) is changing.
Hebrews 1 states that God has spoken in many way...referring to the OT and the different methods.
For instance....Directly to Adam...by revelation to Abraham...by Covenants made with mankind....
I'd say that Jesus is God's ultimate and last revelation.
I'd say that revelation can be CLARIFIED after Jesus...
but it cannot be changed.
If change is allowed,,,then we cannot know, even now, if the revelation we have is correct....
or if it could be changed at any moment.
So the Trinity is one of the way God has revealed Himself?
I agree.
Could that change?
Just to clarify.
Agreed.
I was not referring specifically to the Islamic religion.
I was referring to civilized societies.
(Some Africans tribes used to eat members of other tribes.)
Are you serious A??
What I would like to see is a LIST of some MAN-MADE doctrine of the CC.
And I already know that I won't be agreeing with some of it.
But, know what, EVERY single denomination has something wrong.
Know which one has THE MOST wrong of alll?
The Reformed.
They change the very character of God.
I don't see so much hate for that "denomination" as I do for the Catholic.
Jesus said those that follow His teachings will be persecuted.
Matthew 5 The Sermon on the Mount
Interesting, isn't it?
Maybe they DO have the truth.
The real history of what?
How do you think I know about the Didache if I haven't seen it or studied it?
How is there real history and fake history?
When I studied chuch history, I studied it from all angles.
I've been told that THE CATHOLICS wrote the history and so it's biased.
Well, I've read historical material that does NOT state that Peter was the first Pope.
And, it seems to me you're concentrating a lot of the SDA.
I don't like to discuss too much the wrongs of any denomination.
Like I said, they all get something wrong.
The early Christians,,,those that were taught by The Apostles,
worshipped on Sunday. The called it the Lord's Day.
Here's the problem and why I will not engage in this discussion.
You say the Greek has no name for days?
Or that the word does not exist in the Didache?
Doesn't matter A.
For the reason I stated above.
I don't base my Christianity on the Didache...
which almost made it into the bible BTW...
but on MANY writings of the early church.
Sabbath worship continued right after Jesus ascended...
but already the day was being changed, as we read in Acts 20:7 and one of the letters that doesn't come to mind right now.
I hesitate to debate this because i fail to see the importance of it.
Is it a salvific issue?
I don't believe it is and the debating of it would just take too much time.
I understand,,,but if the NT says THE FIRST DAY,,,I think we need to g by that.
It does not say the evening of the 6th Day,,,
I hate to do what many do by trying to rewrite scripture.
And was it MIDNIGHT TO MIDNIGHT?
Didn't the new day change at 6PM? (sunset)
The Sabbath was from 6pm Fri
to 6PM Sat
Acts 20:7
Paul stayed at Traos a whole week.
Why wait for the first day of the week to break bread?
It says AND ON THE FIRST DAY OF THE WEEK,,
as if they waited specifically for that day...
not because Paul arrived on that day or was leaving on that day.
A,,,I really don't see the point in debating this.
I'll tell you how I feel about this debate.....
Sabbath worship is in the 10 Commandments.
God said they were eternal.
BUT
Worship falls under the Ceremonial Law which has been abolished.
We will just never agree on this....
and I don't know why some are obsessed....
unless you believe Sunday worshippers cannot be saved?
Please tranlate to English.
Would like to know where the word KYRIAKEN....
OR
highlight above writing in Greek.
It IS speaking about persons....
but it seems to me that it's referring to the day they worship.
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