What is the meaning of I AM WHO I AM in Exodus 3:14?

[Aunty Jane]

You're doing the same things you say about him. I see about you that you're puffed up in knowledge. You can have all the knowledge in the world, all the knowledge you got, but it means nothing if you don't have charity. The Pharisees were puffed up in knowledge.

You brought up the stuff in Matthew 7, and you bring them up in other threads. I'll remind you this one. Except that your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. Another thing that is written by the word of God. What Jesus said to people. Those who humble themselves are the ones who get exalted. Those who exalt themselves will be abased.

Knowledge dispels ignorance....what would life be without knowledge? Jesus shared knowledge, so did the apostles. Your user-name highlights the fact that the light has to be shone...what light are you shining?

if you have something to add to the subject matter, or you can refute anything I said, please feel free to post your evidence. If not, your opinion is duly noted....Matthew 7 is a wake up call for all of us, is it not?

 

[Taken]

What is the meaning of I AM WHO I AM in Exodus 3:14?

Ex 3:
14 And God said unto Moses, I Am That I Am: and he said,Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I Am hath sent me unto you.

What is the meaning of I AM WHO I AM in Exodus 3:14?
“I AM HE”…

“HE” WHO?
HE whom a man can not See
HE whom a Carnal Mind can not comprehend
HE whom CREATED for His pleasure
HE whom OFFERS blessings, gifts, rewards
HE whom ESTABLISHED Divisions
HE whom SEPARATES the Divided
HE whom MAKES the Willing holy
HE whom MAKES the unWilling destroyed
HE whom STIRS curiosity, wonderment, fear, hope, peace, conversations among men.
HE whom is PERFECTLY Holy, True, Just, Everlasting and Forever With His;
“MADE holy and SEPARATED creations”.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[TrevorHL]

I consider that the translation given in the RV and RSV margins “I will be that I will be” or “I will be what I will be” is the correct translation of Exodus 3:14. Tyndale also translated this in the future tense

This future tense and future activity was to be God acting to deliver Israel out of Egypt, “I will be with thee”, so that Israel would become a people for His Name. They would be a living witness to the purpose of God, and a witness to the existence of God. The following passage emphasises this work of delivering Israel with the future aspect of the Name:

Exodus 6:1-8 (KJV): 1 Then the LORD said unto Moses, Now shalt thou see what I will do to Pharaoh: for with a strong hand shall he let them go, and with a strong hand shall he drive them out of his land. 2 And God spake unto Moses, and said unto him, I am the LORD: 3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH (or Yahweh) was I not known to them. 4 And I have also established my covenant with them, to give them the land of Canaan, the land of their pilgrimage, wherein they were strangers. 5 And I have also heard the groaning of the children of Israel, whom the Egyptians keep in bondage; and I have remembered my covenant. 6 Wherefore say unto the children of Israel, I am the LORD, and I will bring you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians, and I will rid you out of their bondage, and I will redeem you with a stretched out arm, and with great judgments: 7 And I will take you to me for a people, and I will be to you a God: and ye shall know that I am the LORD your God, which bringeth you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians. 8 And I will bring you in unto the land, concerning the which I did swear to give it to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob; and I will give it you for an heritage: I am the LORD.

When Israel was delivered out of Egypt the Name of God remains the same, but the particular activity has been accomplished:
Exodus 15:1-3 (KJV): 1 Then sang Moses and the children of Israel this song unto the LORD, and spake, saying, I will sing unto the LORD, for he hath triumphed gloriously: the horse and his rider hath he thrown into the sea. 2 The LORD is my strength and song, and he is become my salvation: he is my God, and I will prepare him an habitation; my father’s God, and I will exalt him. 3 The LORD is a man of war: the LORD (Yahweh) is his name.
The future tense of God’s Name “He will be or become” has been accomplished, and Yahweh had become Israel’s salvation.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[WalterandDebbie]

This future tense and future activity was to be God acting to deliver Israel out of Egypt, “I will be with thee”, so that Israel would become a people for His Name. They would be a living witness to the purpose of God, and a witness to the existence of God. The following passage emphasises this work of delivering Israel with the future aspect of the Name:

Exodus 6:1-8 (KJV): 1 Then the LORD said unto Moses, Now shalt thou see what I will do to Pharaoh: for with a strong hand shall he let them go, and with a strong hand shall he drive them out of his land. 2 And God spake unto Moses, and said unto him, I am the LORD: 3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH (or Yahweh) was I not known to them. 4 And I have also established my covenant with them, to give them the land of Canaan, the land of their pilgrimage, wherein they were strangers. 5 And I have also heard the groaning of the children of Israel, whom the Egyptians keep in bondage; and I have remembered my covenant. 6 Wherefore say unto the children of Israel, I am the LORD, and I will bring you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians, and I will rid you out of their bondage, and I will redeem you with a stretched out arm, and with great judgments: 7 And I will take you to me for a people, and I will be to you a God: and ye shall know that I am the LORD your God, which bringeth you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians. 8 And I will bring you in unto the land, concerning the which I did swear to give it to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob; and I will give it you for an heritage: I am the LORD.

When Israel was delivered out of Egypt the Name of God remains the same, but the particular activity has been accomplished:
Exodus 15:1-3 (KJV): 1 Then sang Moses and the children of Israel this song unto the LORD, and spake, saying, I will sing unto the LORD, for he hath triumphed gloriously: the horse and his rider hath he thrown into the sea. 2 The LORD is my strength and song, and he is become my salvation: he is my God, and I will prepare him an habitation; my father’s God, and I will exalt him. 3 The LORD is a man of war: the LORD (Yahweh) is his name.
The future tense of God’s Name “He will be or become” has been accomplished, and Yahweh had become Israel’s salvation.

Kind regards
Trevor

Hello Trevor, Exodus 15: 1-3 KJV

Love, Walter

Love, Walter

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings again Walter,

Hello Trevor, Exodus 15: 1-3 KJV

Yes, those are the verses I quoted. I am glad you agree. Yes, this also confirms that Exodus 3:14 should be translated "I will be".

When Israel was delivered out of Egypt the Name of God remains the same, but the particular activity has been accomplished:
Exodus 15:1-3 (KJV): 1 Then sang Moses and the children of Israel this song unto the LORD, and spake, saying, I will sing unto the LORD, for he hath triumphed gloriously: the horse and his rider hath he thrown into the sea. 2 The LORD is my strength and song, and he is become my salvation: he is my God, and I will prepare him an habitation; my father’s God, and I will exalt him. 3 The LORD is a man of war: the LORD (Yahweh) is his name.
The future tense of God’s Name “He will be or become” has been accomplished, and Yahweh had become Israel’s salvation.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[WalterandDebbie]

Greetings again Walter,

Yes, those are the verses I quoted. I am glad you agree. Yes, this also confirms that Exodus 3:14 should be translated "I will be".


Kind regards
Trevor

Brother, I'm not in agreement with what you have added with the name (Yahweh)

 

[bdavidc]

I'm surprised you did not know that the charge against Yeshua all along was that he called himself the Son of God, and His Messiah, and thus made himself as if he was equal with his Father God. And then for him to say he existed before Abraham as it's clearly deduced and in its local context, was more that enough grounds for the Pharisees to want to stone him, once again.

You keep saying the charge was that He made Himself equal with God, and that is true. Scripture records it plainly ~John 5:18, ~John 10:33. But then you try to shrink the reason down to “He only meant He existed before Abraham.” That is where the fog starts.

Christ did not say, “I existed before Abraham.” He said, “Before Abraham was, I am” ~John 8:58. Not past tense. Present. And He had already warned them what was at stake: “if ye believe not that I am, ye shall die in your sins” ~John 8:24. That is not a casual statement about age. That is a claim tied to eternal life and eternal death.

The men standing there knew exactly what He meant. They did not open a grammar book. They reached for stones ~John 8:59 because the law commands death for blasphemy ~Leviticus 24:16. You do not execute a man for saying he predates Abraham. You execute a man for taking the name and place of God.

And this was not new in that moment. God had already spoken, “ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he” ~Isaiah 43:10. Jesus uses the same form and then makes your soul depend on believing it ~John 8:24. That leaves only two possibilities. Either He spoke truth, or He blasphemed. There is no safe middle ground where He is merely an old Messiah with a long timeline.

John removes all escape routes before the debate even starts: “the Word was God… and the Word was made flesh” ~John 1:1,14. Then a disciple falls before Him and says, “My Lord and my God” and is not corrected ~John 20:28.

So the issue is not translation, grammar, or context tricks. The issue is whether you will believe the record God gave of His Son ~1 John 5:10. Christ Himself drew the line. Believe that He is who He claimed to be, or die in your sins ~John 8:24.

 

[bdavidc]

I would suggest you stop with the empty and very confusing talk by adding other scripture (you also do not understand) to rescue your lack of argument, because you lack understanding in this subject-at-hand. I would also rethink some of the things you have said.

For example, when you said, " If Jesus meant only “I have existed a long time,” the normal, honest way to say that is “I was” or “I have been.” Instead He chose “I am.” John records it that way on purpose."

So what is wrong with this statement? Did Yeshua really choose English words or expressions as code to convince you he is YHWH, right smack in the middle of his reply concerning his age? And Yeshua never spoke English or knew English grammar. He spoke and wrote in Aramaic, with the knowledge of Hebrew. He did not even speak Greek. So you cannot make this rash assumption to fit your pet theory.

Try again...

Stop bluffing with “you don’t understand.” Your response dodges the text.
I never said Jesus “chose English.” I quoted what John wrote under inspiration, because “All scripture is given by inspiration of God” ~2 Timothy 3:16 and “thy word is truth” ~John 17:17. John records Jesus saying, “Before Abraham was, I am” ~John 8:58. That is the text we have, and it is the authority. Your “He didn’t speak English” line is a distraction, not an argument.

You also ignored the part that crushes your claim. They tried to stone Him ~John 8:59, and John tells you why they sought to kill Him: “making himself equal with God” ~John 5:18 and “thou, being a man, makest thyself God” ~John 10:33. That is not about English grammar. That is about what His claim meant.
And Jesus ties eternal life to believing His “I am” claim: “if ye believe not that I am, ye shall die in your sins” ~John 8:24. If you keep denying what the passage is doing, you are not correcting me, you are resisting Scripture.

So here is the plain choice. Believe the record God gave of His Son, or call God a liar: “He that believeth not God hath made him a liar” ~1 John 5:10. You can keep hiding behind language trivia, but it will not save you. The issue is Christ.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Exodus 15: 1-3 KJV

Just reading through that passage of Scripture Walter.....
Do you understand that “the LORD” in those verses is Yahweh? Which is indicated by the capital letters.
The LORD, (Yahweh) is the God and Father of Jesus Christ. (Rev 3:12)

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings again Walter,

Brother, I'm not in agreement with what you have added with the name (Yahweh)

I appreciate the clarification despite your earlier endorsements of my posts, posts #2,6 and your repetition of Exodus 15:1-3 in your post #44 in response to my post #43 which I quoted to support my claim that Exodus 3:14 should be translated as "I will be" or I "wilbe" as per Tyndale.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[WalterandDebbie]

Just reading through that passage of Scripture Walter.....
Do you understand that “the LORD” in those verses is Yahweh? Which is indicated by the capital letters.
The LORD, (Yahweh) is the God and Father of Jesus Christ. (Rev 3:12)

Hi Aunty Jane, We see what has happened over time, inwhich we have taken the Lord Yoke Upon ourselves to learn from him.
Thank you. Matthew 11:25-30.

Love, Walter

 

[WalterandDebbie]

Greetings again Walter,

I appreciate the clarification despite your earlier endorsements of my posts, posts #2,6 and your repetition of Exodus 15:1-3 in your post #44 in response to my post #43 which I quoted to support my claim that Exodus 3:14 should be translated as "I will be" or I "wilbe" as per Tyndale.

Kind regards
Trevor

Thank you, TrevorHL, for your appreciation.

Walter

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings again Walter,

We see what has happened over time, in which we have taken the Lord Yoke Upon ourselves to learn from him.
Thank you. Matthew 11:25-30.

I suggest that you would benefit by attempting to distinguish between the two usages of "LORD" and "Lord" in the KJV, one English word, but the two different Hebrew words are highlighted and distinguished by the KJV translators with full capitals for Yahweh. One of the clearest examples is Psalm 110:1 where the One God, Yahweh, God the Father, where the Hebrew word Yahweh, translated LORD in the KJV, addresses David's Lord where "Lord" is the ordinary word for "Lord, Ruler, Master".
Psalm 110:1 (KJV): 1 The LORD (Yahweh) said unto my Lord (Adon), Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

I also find it interesting that you quote or allude to Matthew 11:25-30 and this is another place where these words are distinguished. It is as if the Holy Spirit is leading you to the fountain of living waters, but you refuse to drink.

Matthew 11:25–30 (KJV): 25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. 26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. 27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him. 28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

Yes, we are to take the yoke shared to us from Jesus our Lord, but in the above passage Jesus is addressing Yahweh, God his Father as "Lord of heaven and earth". And Jesus is quoting and alluding to the following passage, which again distinguishes Yahweh, God the Father, from Jesus who is The Son of Man who was made a little lower than the Angels.

Psalm 8:1–6 (KJV): 1 O LORD our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth! who hast set thy glory above the heavens. 2 Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings hast thou ordained strength because of thine enemies, that thou mightest still the enemy and the avenger.
3 When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained; 4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? 5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. 6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Aunty Jane]

Hi Aunty Jane, We see what has happened over time, inwhich we have taken the Lord Yoke Upon ourselves to learn from him.
Thank you. Matthew 11:25-30.

Love, Walter

I always check any scripture given to me in a reply, so let me see what this passage has to offer us....?

“At that time Jesus said in response: “I publicly praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and intellectual ones and have revealed them to young children. 26  Yes, O Father, because this is the way you approved. 27 All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one fully knows the Son except the Father; neither does anyone fully know the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son is willing to reveal him. 28  Come to me, all you who are toiling and loaded down, and I will refresh you. 29  Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am mild-tempered and lowly in heart, and you will find refreshment for yourselves. 30  For my yoke is kindly, and my load is light.”

Can you explain what the underlined verse means? How are all things handed over to the Son from the Father, if they are both equally “God”?
What is there about “the wise and intellectual ones” among us that precludes them from understanding God’s truth? Is it because it is too simple for them? Is it so simple that a child could understand it but that the intellectual finds it unstimulating? Does it sound childish....unscientific?
How many “persons” are there? How many persons are mentioned in John 17:3? This is a salvation issue.

The Scripfure you cited sounds nice, doesn’t it? But he had just finished his condemnation of several cities...

“20  Then he began to reproach the cities in which most of his powerful works had taken place, for they did not repent: 21  “Woe to you, Cho·raʹzin! Woe to you, Beth·saʹi·da! because if the powerful works that took place in you had taken place in Tyre and Siʹdon, they would long ago have repented in sackcloth and ashes. 22  But I say to you, it will be more endurable for Tyre and Siʹdon on Judgment Day than for you. 23  And you, Ca·perʹna·um, will you perhaps be exalted to heaven? Down to the Grave you will come; because if the powerful works that took place in you had taken place in Sodʹom, it would have remained until this very day. 24  But I say to you, it will be more endurable for the land of Sodʹom on Judgment Day than for you.”

Then we went on to say the verses you quoted. The context and the audience determine the meaning of Jesus’ words.

What do you make of vs 9-11 then? Speaking about John the Baptist as a prophet, Jesus asked....

“9  Really, then, why did you go out? To see a prophet? Yes, I tell you, and far more than a prophet. 10  This is the one about whom it is written: ‘Look! I am sending my messenger ahead of you, who will prepare your way ahead of you!’ 11  Truly I say to you, among those born of women, there has not been raised up anyone greater than John the Baptist, but a lesser person in the Kingdom of the heavens is greater than he is.”

Can you explain why John was a great man on earth, but will not be in heaven?

Unless we take the whole passage in context, we can lose the meaning...and isn’t the meaning more important than just the words?

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings again Aunty Jane,

Can you explain why John was a great man on earth, but will not be in heaven?

I agree with most of what you have stated in your Post, but your JW theology is coming through in this last statement. Why did you add this verse and what is the relevance of this verse to the subject of this thread?

The JWs have the unique view that ALL the faithful who died before the sacrifice of Christ cannot go to heaven, but will be on the earth for the 1000 years. This will include such prominent faithful as Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and David and John the Baptist. This is all part of the unique JW teaching concerning the 144,000. How do you understand the following? Abraham, Isaac and Jacob will be in the Kingdom of Heaven:

Matthew 8:10–12 (KJV): 10 When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel. 11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. 12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

All the faithful will be with Jesus and the Apostles on earth during the 1000 years:
Luke 1:30–33 (KJV): 30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.


Matthew 19:28 (KJV): And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[JustMe]

You keep saying the charge was that He made Himself equal with God, and that is true. Scripture records it plainly ~John 5:18, ~John 10:33. But then you try to shrink the reason down to “He only meant He existed before Abraham.” That is where the fog starts.

Christ did not say, “I existed before Abraham.” He said, “Before Abraham was, I am” ~John 8:58. Not past tense. Present. And He had already warned them what was at stake: “if ye believe not that I am, ye shall die in your sins” ~John 8:24. That is not a casual statement about age. That is a claim tied to eternal life and eternal death.

The men standing there knew exactly what He meant. They did not open a grammar book. They reached for stones ~John 8:59 because the law commands death for blasphemy ~Leviticus 24:16. You do not execute a man for saying he predates Abraham. You execute a man for taking the name and place of God.

And this was not new in that moment. God had already spoken, “ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he” ~Isaiah 43:10. Jesus uses the same form and then makes your soul depend on believing it ~John 8:24. That leaves only two possibilities. Either He spoke truth, or He blasphemed. There is no safe middle ground where He is merely an old Messiah with a long timeline.

John removes all escape routes before the debate even starts: “the Word was God… and the Word was made flesh” ~John 1:1,14. Then a disciple falls before Him and says, “My Lord and my God” and is not corrected ~John 20:28.

So the issue is not translation, grammar, or context tricks. The issue is whether you will believe the record God gave of His Son ~1 John 5:10. Christ Himself drew the line. Believe that He is who He claimed to be, or die in your sins ~John 8:24.

Let me make this short and sweet. Can you answer my previous request and tell me if you think that Yeshua was self-identify with the OT, of Exodus, as with YHWH and his intrinsic personal identification, in John 8:24, yes or no? And then what is your reason/rationale. Thanks.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Greetings again Aunty Jane,

I agree with most of what you have stated in your Post, but your JW theology is coming through in this last statement. Why did you add this verse and what is the relevance of this verse to the subject of this thread?

The reason why I brought it up was because it was part of the chapter that was quoted…..I asked because, if we don’t understand all of what we read in it’s context, how much of the verses we quote, can be fully understood?

The JWs have the unique view that ALL the faithful who died before the sacrifice of Christ cannot go to heaven, but will be on the earth for the 1000 years. This will include such prominent faithful as Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and David and John the Baptist. This is all part of the unique JW teaching concerning the 144,000.

What does the Bible say that gives us this understanding?

1) The condition of the dead….

Eccl 9:5, 10…
“For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all, nor do they have any more reward, because all memory of them is forgotten. . .
Whatever your hand finds to do, do with all your might, for there is no work nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom in the Grave, [Sheol] where you are going.”

Those in “Sheol” are in an unconscious and inactive state….A place of “silence”. (Psalm 115:17)

2) The Bible teaches resurrection, not immortality of the soul, so a return to life is promised for all those in the grave (Sheol). As Jesus is the one given the authority to resurrect the dead, he will call them out of their graves, which means that they are all still in them. (John 5:28-29) They haven’t gone anywhere.

3) There are two kinds of death….those who “sleep” in Sheol will be brought back to life, whilst those who suffer the “second death”, (Gehenna, lake of fire) their prospects for resurrection are gone….they will never see life again.

4) The Bible also speaks of two different resurrections…the “first” one is to heaven for those who will rule with Christ in the heavenly Kingdom (Rev 20:6) and then there is one for those who will be brought back to life on earth as their subjects. (Acts 24:15)

Since the Bible clearly states that ‘no one went to heaven before Jesus’, (John 3:13) and that the heavenly resurrection does not take place until Christ return…

1Thess 4:13-17….(NKJV)
“But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. . . .
For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.”

….“the dead in Christ” are those who will attain to the heavenly resurrection. They “will rise first”.
The first of those to die after Christ, were Jesus‘ 12 apostles who form the very foundations of the heavenly Kingdom. (Rev 21:14)
Jesus is the chief cornerstone. And he returned to heaven to “prepare a place” for his disciples “in his Father’s house”. That “house” is in heaven, and those who will join Jesus in the resurrection are the ones who will rule from heaven, over the redeemed ones on earth. (Rev 21:2-4)

The ancient men of faith will be resurrected back to the earth, where it says that some will be “princes in all the earth”. No one went to heaven until Christ opened the way with his own death and resurrection…..demonstrated by the curtain in the Temple being rent in two at the time of Christ’s death. The barrier between the Holy and the Most Holy compartments was now removed.

Prophetically Psalm 45:1-16 says of Christ’s beautiful “bride”….”They will enter into the palace of the king. In place of your forefathers there will come to be your sons, whom you will appoint as princes in all the earth.”
This prophesy had to be fulfilled, so how are we to understand the words… “in place of your forefathers, there will come to be your sons, whom you will appoint as princes in all the earth”?
One of the titles given to the “Prince of Peace“ is “Everlasting Father” which some misunderstand that in the Hebrew language, a “father” can be one of many things, not just a natural biological father…or the Creator.
Jesus becomes a “father” in the sense that he is the one imparting everlasting life to those who put their faith in his saving act as their redeemer….sent by his God and Father.

5) Because it was never in God’s first purpose for humans to die, the rebellion in Eden needed to be addressed in such a way, that all that God planned for life on planet Earth would come to a successful conclusion. (Isa 55:11)

Paul wrote at Rom 8:17….“If, then, we are children, we are also heirs—heirs indeed of God, but joint heirs with Christ—provided we suffer together so that we may also be glorified together.”

He was speaking of his fellow “heirs”…..those who will rule with Christ in his Kingdom. These alone are given a spiritual resurrection….”the first resurrection” with another to follow on earth once the Kingdom‘s rule was established over redeemed ones here.

So because the 144,000 are “heirs with Christ”, they will rule with him in his Kingdom, but the faithful ones of old will have their place “in all the earth” as representatives of the Kingdom……”Abraham, Isaac and Jacob“ represent the Kingdom at its very foundation…..it was the theme of Jesus’ entire ministry.

How do you understand the following? Abraham, Isaac and Jacob will be in the Kingdom of Heaven:

Matthew 8:10–12 (KJV): 10 When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel. 11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. 12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

All the faithful will be with Jesus and the Apostles on earth during the 1000 years:
Luke 1:30–33 (KJV): 30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.


Matthew 19:28 (KJV): And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

I read those scriptures with the understanding that the rest of Scripture explains….
Natural Israel lost their place as a nation, but both Jews and Gentiles make up the tribes of spiritual Israel, whom Paul called ”the Israel of God”. (Gal 6:16)

I hope that answers your question. We agree on so much but diverge on this one belief.

 

[bdavidc]

Let me make this short and sweet. Can you answer my previous request and tell me if you think that Yeshua was self-identify with the OT, of Exodus, as with YHWH and his intrinsic personal identification, in John 8:24, yes or no? And then what is your reason/rationale. Thanks.

Yes. Jesus was declaring Himself to be the LORD of Exodus. God spoke to Moses, “I AM THAT I AM… I AM hath sent me” ~Exodus 3:14 Later God declares, “that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he… before me there was no God formed” ~Isaiah 43:10.

Listen to Jesus, not theology. Not tradition:

“if ye believe not that I am, ye shall die in your sins” ~John 8:24

He connects your eternal fate to believing that statement. Not whether you believe He existed long ago. Not if you believe He is a prophet. Believing who He claims to be. Then He gives you no excuses:

“Before Abraham was, I am” ~John 8:58

They knew exactly what He was claiming. They tried to stone Him ~John 8:59 because the Law demanded death for blasphemy ~Leviticus 24:16. You do not stone a man for claiming to be greater than Abraham. You stone a man for claiming to be God.

Scripture makes His identity crystal clear:

“The Word was God… and the Word was made flesh” ~John 1:1,14
“My Lord and my God” ~John 20:28
“In him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily” ~Colossians 2:9

The issue is not grammar. It is faith. Either He is the LORD manifested in flesh. Or Jesus is a blasphemer. There is no dividing ground remaining. He told you what rests on that decision: “if ye believe not that I am, ye shall die in your sins” ~John 8:24.

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings again Aunty Jane,

The reason why I brought it up was because it was part of the chapter that was quoted…..I asked because, if we don’t understand all of what we read in it’s context, how much of the verses we quote, can be fully understood?

I suggest that what is stated about John the Baptist does not really have much direct relevance to what is taught in Matthew 11:25-30. Also the JW misapplication of what is stated about John the Baptist is especially not relevant and is off topic, nevertheless a brief response.

What does the Bible say that gives us this understanding?

I am very conscious of the the various aspects of the JW teaching. I first read concerning these ideas in "Let God Be True" over 60 years ago when I was in my early 20s. There are a number of ideas that combine to make up the overall view of the JWs. A major teaching is that the JWs do not believe in the bodily resurrection of Jesus, despite the clear teaching of the Bible. They then hold to the view that the 144,000 have been ascending to heaven since 1914 without the resurrection of their bodies.

Contrary to JW teaching, my understanding is that Jesus will return to the earth and reign from literal Jerusalem with ALL the resurrected faithful. I also believe in the conversion of a significant remnant of natural Israel, and the subjection of the nations learning the ways of God Isaiah 2:1-4.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Aunty Jane]

Greetings again Aunty Jane,

I suggest that what is stated about John the Baptist does not really have much direct relevance to what is taught in Matthew 11:25-30. Also the JW misapplication of what is stated about John the Baptist is especially not relevant and is off topic, nevertheless a brief response.

The mention of John B in that chapter is still relevant….why else would it be there…? What does this indicate about his destiny compared with those who will rule from heaven with Jesus?

It has everything to do with the resurrection that he will attain, having died before Jesus opened the way to heaven.
Jesus made no effort to bring him back to life like he did with Lazarus, whose destiny he changed when he brought him back to life.

I am very conscious of the the various aspects of the JW teaching. I first read concerning these ideas in "Let God Be True" over 60 years ago when I was in my early 20s.

We have come a long way in our understanding since then…..”the light on the path“, has indeed become much brighter since the 60’s. (Prov 4:18)

There are a number of ideas that combine to make up the overall view of the JWs. A major teaching is that the JWs do not believe in the bodily resurrection of Jesus, despite the clear teaching of the Bible.

Can you show me a Scriptural reference for the bodily resurrection of Jesus?
1 Pet 3:18…
”For Christ died once for all time for sins, a righteous person for unrighteous ones, in order to lead you to God. He was put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit.”

What sort of body was Christ raised in? We have to know this because all of the 144,000 will have this kind of resurrection as well.

1 Cor 15:35-54...."Nevertheless, someone will say: “How are the dead to be raised up? Yes, with what sort of body are they coming?” 36 You unreasonable person! What you sow is not made alive unless first it dies.". . . . there are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies; but the glory of the heavenly bodies is one sort, and that of the earthly bodies is a different sort. 41 The glory of the sun is one sort, and the glory of the moon is another, and the glory of the stars is another; in fact, one star differs from another star in glory.
42 So it is with the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised up in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor; it is raised up in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised up in power. 44  It is sown a physical body; it is raised up a spiritual body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual one. 4 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living person.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 4 However, what is spiritual is not first. What is physical is first, and afterward what is spiritual. 47 The first man is from the earth and made of dust; the second man is from heaven. 48 Like the one made of dust, so too are those made of dust; and like the heavenly one, so too are those who are heavenly. 49 And just as we have borne the image of the one made of dust, we will bear also the image of the heavenly one.

"But I tell you this, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s Kingdom, nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Look! I tell you a sacred secret: We will not all fall asleep in death, but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the blink of an eye, during the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised up incorruptible, and we will be changed. 53 For this which is corruptible must put on incorruption, and this which is mortal must put on immortality. 54 But when this which is corruptible puts on incorruption and this which is mortal puts on immortality."


A mortal body cannot become immortal unless first it dies, and is raised up in spirit form. This is what being "born again" means. It is dying in the flesh but being made alive in a spirit body.

They then hold to the view that the 144,000 have been ascending to heaven since 1914 without the resurrection of their bodies.

Those "dead in Christ" will be "resurrected first"....and this takes place when Christ returns. We believe that his return was indicated by the "signs" he gave to show that he was "present".....beginning with unprecedented war.....the War of 1914 was the first of its kind in human history, followed by the other signs that he gave in Matt 24:3-14.

Contrary to JW teaching, my understanding is that Jesus will return to the earth and reign from literal Jerusalem with ALL the resurrected faithful. I also believe in the conversion of a significant remnant of natural Israel, and the subjection of the nations learning the ways of God Isaiah 2:1-4.

It was prophesied that only a remnant of natural Israel would be saved...(Rom 9:27-29) but it was Jesus himself who spoke about where his reign would be conducted.....
He spoke to a Samaritan woman at a well, and she was amazed that he knew all about her. She discerned that he was a prophet.
The conversation went like this....

John 4:19-24...
"The woman said to him: “Sir, I see that you are a prophet. 20 Our forefathers worshipped on this mountain, but you people say that in Jerusalem is the place where people must worship.” 21 Jesus said to her: “Believe me, woman, the hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. 22 You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, because salvation begins with the Jews. 23 Nevertheless, the hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshippers will worship the Father with spirit and truth, for indeed, the Father is looking for ones like these to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit, and those worshipping him must worship with spirit and truth.”

No earthly geographical location will be the site of God's future worship on earth.....because it is now a global religion.....literal Jerusalem is no longer of any interest to God.....there is a heavenly new Jerusalem, on another Mt Zion, also located in heaven.

Heb 12:22-23.....
"But you have approached a Mount Zion and a city of the living God, heavenly Jerusalem, and myriads of angels 23 in general assembly, and the congregation of the firstborn who have been enrolled in the heavens, and God the Judge of all, and the spiritual lives of righteous ones who have been made perfect".