Could Ezekiel 37, 38 and 39 all be post millennial?

[grafted branch]

"I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me" -Jesus confirming a second time that he isn't going to be one the one judge on the last day. Jesus identifies the judge as his Father. Both Daniel and Revelation attest to this fact:

Ok, thanks for taking the time to make that post, I agree with you. How about Revelation 2:26-27? It says those that overcome and do His will to the end, will be given authority over the nations. He shall rule (poimaino) them with a rod of iron.

Just to clarify, can a verse such as this be used to prove that a period of time has to occur after the coming of Christ, since it’s the Father that judges on the last day? I think the Amil view is that there is no period of time after His coming and Revelation 2:26-27 is referring to the final judgment (GWTJ).

 

[Hiddenthings]

His becoming was a reference to his incarnate state. It doesn't contradict his eternal pre-existence or divinity when you understand what the "word becoming flesh" means.

Jn 1:1-3
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

later:

Jn 1:14-15
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

John the Baptist testified that this Word was Jesus:

15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.

The concept of hypostasis was developed because of a misunderstanding of the passages mentioned above. You’re beginning with assumptions that aren’t rooted in Scripture, and if you were to measure those assumptions against the apostles’ teaching on the nature of Christ, you would quickly see that the foundation itself is flawed.

Do you understand what I mean by testing your notions?

 

[Hiddenthings]

Just to clarify, can a verse such as this be used to prove that a period of time has to occur after the coming of Christ, since it’s the Father that judges on the last day? .

That’s right, if you read Ezekiel 38 and Revelation 20 carefully, you’ll see that they describe two distinct conflicts: one occurring before the Millennium and the other at its conclusion. The first concerns the King of the North, whereas the latter depicts a global rebellion.

 

[WPM]

Foolish questions...to be avoided. If you understood the prophetical nature of a Promised Son you would not ask.

What have you to hide?

 

[WPM]

The concept of hypostasis was developed because of a misunderstanding of the passages mentioned above. You’re beginning with assumptions that aren’t rooted in Scripture, and if you were to measure those assumptions against the apostles’ teaching on the nature of Christ, you would quickly see that the foundation itself is flawed.

Do you understand what I mean by testing your notions?

You are avoiding the text, as is your pattern. All you have are evasive words - that mean nothing.

 

[WPM]

If you were able to address all the references and align them correctly, your response might carry some weight, but as it stands, it doesn’t.

I am starting to notice a pattern: you are incapable at addressing counter arguments. All you have is heretical noise that you have been taught. It is a waste of time engaging with you. I refuse to give you any credibility.

 

[ewq1938]

Ok, thanks for taking the time to make that post, I agree with you. How about Revelation 2:26-27? It says those that overcome and do His will to the end, will be given authority over the nations. He shall rule (poimaino) them with a rod of iron.

Yes, they will help rule but that is not a throne judgment.

Just to clarify, can a verse such as this be used to prove that a period of time has to occur after the coming of Christ, since it’s the Father that judges on the last day? I think the Amil view is that there is no period of time after His coming and Revelation 2:26-27 is referring to the final judgment (GWTJ).

I'm not sure. It would only affect those that think Jesus judges at the GWTJ but some might think Christ kills people, and that the Father will judge on the throne. I'm not sure Amill has one agreed upon version of those particular things.

 

[shepherdsword]

The concept of hypostasis was developed because of a misunderstanding of the passages mentioned above. You’re beginning with assumptions that aren’t rooted in Scripture, and if you were to measure those assumptions against the apostles’ teaching on the nature of Christ, you would quickly see that the foundation itself is flawed.

The scripture teaches that Jesus is the divine Word that created all things. Can you present any scripture to refute that?

Do you understand what I mean by testing your notions?

My "notions" are confirmed by the vast majority of scholars and church fathers. Perhaps you would do well to test yours. Maybe then you will see the hidden things from your eyes.

 

[rockytopva]

Will these prophecies be the end of the Black Horseman?

After many days thou shalt be visited: in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them. - Ezekiel 38:8

1. This will happen in the latter years
2. In Israel, a land that was brought back from the sword in 1948
3. This will happen in the latter years, not the last days, so it must occur before the rapture.

Thou shalt ascend and come like a storm, thou shalt be like a cloud to cover the land, thou, and all thy bands, and many people with thee. - Ezekiel 38:8 And thou shalt say, I will go up to the land of unwalled villages; I will go to them that are at rest, that dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates, - Ezekiel 38:11 Persia, Ethiopia, and Libya with them; all of them with shield and helmet: Gomer, and all his bands; the house of Togarmah of the north quarters, and all his bands: and many people with thee. - Ezekiel 38:5-6

4. An overpopulated world will come against Israel as a storm from the North, South, and East.

And I will turn thee back, and leave but the sixth part of thee, and will cause thee to come up from the north parts, and will bring thee upon the mountains of Israel: - Ezekiel 39:2 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will give unto Gog a place there of graves in Israel, the valley of the passengers on the east of the sea: and it shall stop the noses of the passengers: and there shall they bury Gog and all his multitude: and they shall call it The valley of Hamongog. And seven months shall the house of Israel be burying of them, that they may cleanse the land. - Ezekiel 39:11-12

5. It will take seven months to bury the dead
6. The valley of Hamongog (Hamon-gog = "multitude of Gog") is where they will put the vast majority of the bodies.
7. These events have not yet transpired. It is an unfulfilled prophecy that will bring the black horseman to a stop...

 

[Jay Ross]

After many days thou shalt be visited: in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them. - Ezekiel 38:8

The translators have forced a very different context to the one that is found in the Hebrew text. Below is my understanding of verse 8.

Ezekiel 38:7-9: - 7 "Prepare yourself and be ready, you and all your companies that are gathered about you; and be a guard for them. 8 After many days you will be visited. In the latter years you will come into the land/country of those brought back from the sword and gathered from many people on the mountains/religion of Israel, which had long been desolate; they were brought out of the nations, and now all of them dwell safely.[1] 9 You will ascend, coming like a storm, covering the land/earth like a cloud, you and all your troops and many peoples with you."

---

[1] It is my opinion that a better translation of verse 8, would read as: -
8 After many days you will be visited. In the latter years you will come into the country of those brought back from the sword and gathered from among many people into the religion of Israel, {which had long been desolate}; they were brought out of the nations, and now all of them dwell safely.

 

[Jay Ross]

@rockytopva

I am not sure that this diagram is true.



It is my view that the end of this present age will happen in the year 2044 AD which will be followed by 1,000 years of peace on the earth because Satan, the Beast and the Little Horn will be imprisoned in the Bottomless pit for 1,000 year.

It is not until the Bottomless pit is unlocked after the 1,000 years of Peace upon the earth around the year 3045 AD, that Satan, the beast and the Little Horn are released from the Bottomless Pit and go out to march all over the earth killing the Saints, until they come to Jerusalem where their last stand will take place.

It is my view that the Final Judgement of all of the peoples of the earth will then take place around the year 3,068 AD.

Shalom

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I understand that you are saying that He will not shepherd the nations of believers with a rod of iron following His return because He smote the nations of unbelievers with a rod of iron at the time of His return.

It's a pity you weren't there to tell John not to use the word poimaino (shepherd) in Revelation 2, 12 & 19. John evidently needed your insight.

Revelation 2
26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
27 And he shall rule [poimaino - shepherd] them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
28 And I will give him the morning star.
29 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Revelation 12
5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule [poimaino - shepherd] all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

Aaah. Sheperding the nations with a rod of iron after Christ had been caught up to God and to His throne. Why would John even have written such a thing? He really needed you there.

Revelation 19
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it (with the sharp sword proceeding from His mouth) he should smite the nations: AND [G2532 kai] he shall rule [poimaino - shepherd] them with a rod of iron: AND [G2532 kai] he (is the one who) treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

John really needed you there. If you were there he certainly wouldn't have written:

Revelation 3
21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

.. but John did not have you there. He only had Jesus there - who had once told His apostles:

Matthew 19:28-29
28 Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name’s sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.

It's only the nations that are saved that Revelation 21 says will be entering New Jerusalem - but you say they will have no shepherd because the rod of iron He might have shepherded them with was used by Him to smite the unbelieving nations.

I understand what you are saying. I just don't agree with it. IMO there is a reason why John used the word "sword", speaking of it as coming out of the mouth of Christ when he wrote about Christ smiting the nations, but did not use the word "break" as in Psalm 2:9 when He spoke of Christ ruling the nations - instead he spoke of Christ shepherding the nations with a rod of iron, unlike the Psalmist.

But John did not have you there to correct his Greek, so it's understandable.

Have you not said that you agree with me that Jesus will destroy all living unbelievers when He returns? Is that not who the nations/heathen are that it says He will break/destroy with His rod of iron? How can He then shepherd them with His rod of iron in the way you understand that after having destroyed them? You know that makes no sense. You instead having Him shepherding people who have been resurrected from the dead. That's completely ridiculous. Nowhere does scripture teach that anyone will be resurrected from the dead and then continue living on the earth. That's an interpretation you have all to yourself. No, dead unbelievers will be resurrected and then immediately judged unto "damnation" and "everlasting shame and contempt" (John 5:28-29, Daniel 12:2). When Jesus comes with His angels He will then judge unbelievers and have them cast into the "everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels" for "everlasting punishment" (Matthew 25:31-46). You don't have them being punished until 1,000+ years later. That blatantly contradicts what Jesus taught in John 5:28-29, Matthew 13:40-43, Matthew 13:47-50 and Matthew 25:31-46.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Thank you. But John did not have any Amillennialist there to correct his Greek when he included tenses. I agree with everything you say except the mortals part.

That's a pretty major thing to disagree about! Your belief is as far apart from his as it is mine, but go ahead and continue with your Premil love fest if you want. But, don't act like your particular belief isn't one you have all to yourself and don't pretend that it's not very different from the typical Premill belief.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Also, RULE in Rev 19 is future tense so the ruling doesn't even take place until AFTER Armageddon which proves mortals are alive and ruled over by Christ after the second coming:

Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite (Aorist tense verb with PRESENT tense meaning) the nations: and he shall rule (FUTURE tense verb) them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth (PRESENT tense verb) the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

https://www.blueletterbible .org/kjv/rev/19/15/t_conc_1186015

https://biblehub .com/interlinear/revelation/19-15.htm

(remove the spaces before .com and .org in the two links)


Here rule/poimaino is in the FUTURE tense meaning it will happen at some point AFTER the second coming and battle of Armageddon while treadeth/pateo is written in the PRESENT tense meaning it is happening during this second coming. The treading and smiting are happening at Armageddon but not the ruling which proves some mortals will be alive after Armageddon is over. This proves the Premill position because indeed there is a future rule of people who were not slain during the second coming that Christ and his saints will rule over.

A second witness to this:

Rev 2:25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.

That is the second coming. Everything we read of next comes after the second coming:

Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

After "the end" comes, there is given power over the nations to those that are overcomers. They will be given power over the mortal unsaved nations after Christ has returned not before it.

Explain how He can rule over them after having destroyed them? Hello? You just have no idea how little sense you are making. What "mortal unsaved nations" are you talking about? What unsaved mortal do you think will survive Christ's return?

2 Thessalonians 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Paul said that at His return Jesus will be "taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ". You have some "that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ" somehow surving His return. How? Where did Paul indicate that there would be any exceptions? What would allow some "that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ" to survive His return with the rest being killed? Paul gave no indication of that whatsoever. Just as he did not give any indication of that in the following passage...

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

Paul indicated that unbelievers in spiritual darkness will be suddenly destroyed when Jesus comes as a thief in the night and he explicitly indicated that "they shall not escape". Yet, you believe that some who are in spiritual darkness will somehow escape His wrath. Who are they and why did Paul not mention this? What is it about them that would allow them to escape Christ's wrath but not everyone else who is in spiritual darkness?

Peter makes it abundantly clear that no mortal will escape the sudden destruction that will occur when Jesus comes as a thief in the night because the sudden destruction will involve the burning up of the earth.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

Again, how do you have any mortals surviving this and then being ruled by Jesus with a rod of iron afterwards? Impossible! You must think that Paul and Peter didn't know what they were talking about. Jesus taught the same thing...

Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. 36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. 37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Jesus taught that heaven and earth will pass away at His second coming and it will happen unexpectedly. That matches what Peter wrote in 2 Peter 3:10-12. And He compared the destruction that will happen at His second coming to the flood in Noah's day. Just as Peter did in 2 Peter 3:6-7. So, what mortal can survive that? None. But, you don't take any of this into account when reading the book of Revelation. Why not? You need to take ALL of scripture into consideration, not just bits and pieces here and there. Your cherry picking method of interpreting scripture is the same method that cults use. Why would you want to use the same method of interpretation scripture that they use?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No mention of a thousand years, yet a period of time after the 2nd coming and before 1 Corinthians 15:28 is fulfilled, is obviously implied. All Amil seems to do with these things is to flatten them into one day events. It makes zero sense to give overcomers power over the nations after Christ returns, if that power is only for one day or less. Keeping in mind, per Amil there are no more days after Christ returns, that 1 Corinthians 15:28 is somehow miraculously fulfilled the same day He returns. I'm sorry, but I can't agree with a mindset like that, that all these prophecies in the OT and NT pertaining to post the 2nd coming are all fulfilled within a single day or less.

I also tend to think the following is connected with being given power over the nations when He returns--have thou authority over ten cities(Luke 19:17). I don't know what that might look like to have authority over 10 cities. But I do know it makes zero sense to only have authority over 10 cities for 1 day or less. Once again keeping in mind, per Amil there are no more days after Christ returns, that 1 Corinthians 15:28 is somehow miraculously fulfilled the same day He returns.

Amil has to be rejected. And thankfully it is not the position of every believer in the past, present and future.

Another weak argument from you. You come on here with these weak arguments and then somehow think you have proven something. It's truly unbelievable. Here is the verse you keep referencing...

1 Corinthians 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

What exactly are you intending to say in relation to this verse? You never make that clear.

As far as the parable about being given authority over ten cities, etc. is concerned...what do you think, that we will only be given power and authority temporarily? That's insane. No, we will be given power and authority for eternity. So, how in the world do you think that parable or the verse about being given power and authority has anything to do with a future temporal earthly kingdom?

You ignore all the passages which teach that all unbelievers will be killed when Jesus comes (Matt 24:35-39, 1 Thess 5:2-3, 2 Thess 1:7-9, 2 Peter 3:10-12, Rev 19:11-21). The power and authority we will inherit when Jesus returns is something we will have in the new heavens and new earth for eternity. Unbelievers will be cast into "everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels" when Jesus returns, according to Matthew 25:31-46. So, this idea that we will rule over unbelievers for a thousand years is nowhere to be found in scripture. All unbelievers will be destroyed when Jesus returns. That is taught repeatedly. You have to ignore many scriptures to keep Premil afloat. Yet, here you are saying "Amil has to be rejected". You are blatantly rejecting the truth that has been presented to you for many years. You just believe what you want to believe instead of what is taught in scripture and that is just sad to witness.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

And Amil is ignoring Zechariah 14:12 and what follows after that verse, not before that verse, but after that verse, meaning Zechariah 14:16-19.

How does Amil ignore Zechariah 14:12-19? Tell us how you interpret those verses. Otherwise, we have no reason to take you seriously about this.

Psalms 2:8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.


We can't divorce verse 9 from this in verse 8---I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance.

In pottery, broken or marred clay can be reworked, reshaped, or recycled into a new, improved form. Maybe that's the point? And not what you take it to mean in verse 9 instead.

You are trying to turn a description of total destruction that is compared to breaking a potter's vessel into pieces into something very different from that. Potters don't take a bunch of broken pieces and reshape them. They don't reshape destroyed pottery. You are making things up here.

 

[Davidpt]

You are trying to turn a description of total destruction that is compared to breaking a potter's vessel into pieces into something very different from that. Potters don't take a bunch of broken pieces and reshape them. They don't reshape destroyed pottery. You are making things up here.

THis is what I initially queried in Google. Therefore, if anyone made anything up it wasn't me.

-------------------
if a potter's vessel gets broken into pieces, is it possible to mold the vessel into something better
------------------

THe following was one answer I received:


Yes, a broken vessel can be molded into something better
. In pottery, broken or marred clay (before final firing) can be reworked, reshaped, and remade into a new, improved, or different vessel by the potter. This metaphor, often cited from Jeremiah 18:4-6, emphasizes that broken pieces are not useless but can be repurposed into a better, more useful, or more valuable item.

Process of Reclamation: A skilled potter can crush the spoiled clay, add water, and reshape it completely.
Symbolic Meaning: Just as a potter handles broken, "marred" clay to create a new, better pot, brokenness in life can be repurposed into a more valuable, beautiful, and "refined" form by the Master Potter (often interpreted as God).
Practical Examples: Beyond pottery, broken ceramic pieces can be used for mosaics, jewelry, or in kintsugi—the Japanese art of repairing broken pottery with gold, making it more beautiful and valuable than before.

In essence, the broken vessel is never truly lost if it is in the hands of the creator; it is simply being transformed.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

THis is what I initially queried in Google. Therefore, if anyone made anything up it wasn't me.

-------------------
if a potter's vessel gets broken into pieces, is it possible to mold the vessel into something better
------------------

THe following was one answer I received:


Yes, a broken vessel can be molded into something better
. In pottery, broken or marred clay (before final firing) can be reworked, reshaped, and remade into a new, improved, or different vessel by the potter. This metaphor, often cited from Jeremiah 18:4-6, emphasizes that broken pieces are not useless but can be repurposed into a better, more useful, or more valuable item.

Process of Reclamation: A skilled potter can crush the spoiled clay, add water, and reshape it completely.

That is not talking about taking pieces of a completed, hardened potter's vessel and reshaping it. That's talking about reshaping it before it has been hardened. The scriptural text is talking about a finished, hardened potter's vessel being shattered into many pieces. It's a picture of destruction, not reshaping. That's why, in Revelation 19:15, the ruling with a rod of iron is talked about in direct relation to Jesus smiting the nations/heathen and treading them in the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of almighty God. How can you read that verse and think that it has anything to do with reforming unbelievers rather than destroying them? You are not being honest with the text at all.

 

[Davidpt]

1 Corinthians 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

What exactly are you intending to say in relation to this verse? You never make that clear.

The point is, once that verse is fulfilled, this means there is nothing preventing something from continuing all throughout eternity at that point. Which then means some things have to be meaning before that verse is fulfilled, otherwise it is applicable all throughout eternity. It makes zero sense, for example, to have authority over 10 cities all throughout eternity. It doesn't matter what it looks like to have that authority. The point is, it involves having authority over something after Christ has returned and that it makes zero sense they maintain this authority over these things, cities in this case, all throughout eternity, where that involves the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Nor does it make sense to have authority over something for one day or less. Therefore, there has to be a period of time after Christ has returned but before 1 Corinthians 15:28 is fulfilled, in order for them to utilize this authority.

The same logic per Zechariah 14:16-19, especially verses 17-19.

Zechariah 14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Zechariah 14:16 ¶And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.


Anyone who insists verse 12 has already been fulfilled, in any sense, there is clearly something wrong with that person, and that that person couldn't possibly be taken serious by any reasonable person, since it is absurd verse 12 has already been fulfilled.

Clearly, verses 16-19 are meaning post the fulfillment of verse 12. And clearly, verse 12 can't get fulfilled to begin with unless it involves the DOTL and the 2nd coming. That undeniably means verse 16-19 fit post the 2nd coming, not prior to the 2nd coming.

Regardless what the following might look like is not the point---shall even go up from year to year. The point is, it is impossible to fulfill that in a single day or less.

Then if we factor in verses 17-19 that it too is meaning post the 2nd coming, how is it remotely reasonable that it will continue in that manner all throughout eternity? After all, if Amil is correct that 1 Corinthians 15:28 is fulfilled the same day Christ returns, which is already absurd to begin with, this means verses 17-19 have to be applied to all of eternity since there would be no period of time after Christ returns, but before 1 Corinthians 15:28 is fulfilled, preventing these verses from continuing in that manner forever.

And since it is absurd that verses 16-19 are applicable all throughout eternity, this means a period of time is required after the 2nd coming, but before 1 Corinthians 15:28 is fulfilled, that has a beginning and an end where verses 16-19 can fit, thus preventing them from continuing in that manner forever. If the millennium is not what can explain this, then what can explain it? Amil certainly doesn't have anything to explain it. No surprise there since Amil has zero to explain a lot of things like this.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The point is, once that verse is fulfilled, this means there is nothing preventing something from continuing all throughout eternity at that point. Which then means some things have to be meaning before that verse is fulfilled, otherwise it is applicable all throughout eternity.

That verse, 1 Corinthians 15:28, relates directly to verses 22-27. So, the timing of that verse relates to the time when Jesus comes again which Paul says will bring in "the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power." (1 Cor 15:24). It is when the last enemy, death, will be defeated, which Paul indicates later in 1 Corinthians 15:54 will be when the last trumpet sounds.

It makes zero sense, for example, to have authority over 10 cities all throughout eternity.

Why is that? Why couldn't Jesus have told a parable about something related to eternity? That makes no sense to think that parable can't relate to eternity. And, let me remind you yet again that it's a parable. You seem to always forget that. Jesus was not talking about anyone literally having authority over literal cities. The ten cities aren't any more literal than the ten servants or the ten units of money (pounds or minas) that the "certain nobleman" gave them. The ten cities figuratively represent whatever authority believers will be given when Jesus returns. Why would you not think that any authority and awards that believers are given when He returns would be eternal? I truly cannot understand the way you think at all.

It doesn't matter what it looks like to have that authority. The point is, it involves having authority over something after Christ has returned and that it makes zero sense they maintain this authority over these things, cities in this case, all throughout eternity, where that involves the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Huh?! What are you talking about? Why in the world would you think that we would be given only temporal authority? That would be almost meaningless. Do you think that Jesus being subject unto the Father means He will no longer have any authority? If so, you are quite mistaken! He will have authority over all except for the Father. And we will continue to have authority as well throughout eternity. Yes, in subjection to the Father, but you are acting as if the Father will be the only One with any authority at that point. That is not what 1 Corinthians 15:28 is saying.

Nor does it make sense to have authority over something for one day or less.

I agree with that which is why I don't believe that.

Therefore, there has to be a period of time after Christ has returned but before 1 Corinthians 15:28 is fulfilled, in order for them to utilize this authority.

There will be eternity for them to utilize that authority, but it has nothing to do with ruling over unbelievers as you imagine. Scripture says that we will judge the world. What do you think that means? Do you think it has something to do with ruling over the world for a thousand years or does it have to do with the fact that unbelievers will be condemned by the fact that they did not put their trust in Christ like we did?

1 Corinthians 6:2 Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world will be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters? 3 Do you not know that we shall judge angels? How much more, things that pertain to this life?

The same logic per Zechariah 14:16-19, especially verses 17-19.

Zechariah 14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Zechariah 14:16 ¶And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Why do you try to use these verses to support your doctrine when you can't even tell us what these verses mean? You have no clear scriptures to support your doctrine. Your doctrine is founded upon some of the most difficult and highly debatable passages in all of scripture. Why doesn't that bother you?

Anyone who insists verse 12 has already been fulfilled, in any sense, there is clearly something wrong with that person, and that that person couldn't possibly be taken serious by any reasonable person, since it is absurd verse 12 has already been fulfilled.

Oh, really? So, it's just somehow impossible for that verse to be anything but literal? Do you think the book of Zechariah has nothing but literal text in it?

Clearly, verses 16-19 are meaning post the fulfillment of verse 12.

Clearly.

And clearly, verse 12 can't get fulfilled to begin with unless it involves the DOTL and the 2nd coming.

Clearly only in your mind. To me, you clearly contradict many other scriptures like Matthew 24:35-39, Luke 17:26-37, 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9, 2 Peter 3:10-12 and Revelation 19:11-21 with your interpretation of Zechariah 14:12-19.

That undeniably means verse 16-19 fit post the 2nd coming, not prior to the 2nd coming.

LOL! Undeniably? I and millions of others deny that it means that, so you can't say it undeniably means that. How can you say this when your interpretation of that passage contradicts other scriptures like Matthew 24:35-39, Luke 17:26-37, 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9, 2 Peter 3:10-12 and Revelation 19:11-21?

Regardless what the following might look like is not the point---shall even go up from year to year. The point is, it is impossible to fulfill that in a single day or less.

It's always besides the point when the point relates to you having to actually prove what you are claiming. How convenient. Do you take Zechariah 14:16-19 literally or not? It must be that you do not because I know that you do not believe in future animal sacrifices and offerings. A literal, futurist interpretation of that passage would mean animal sacrifices and offerings would occur in the future because keeping the feast of tabernacles involved performing animal sacrifices and offerings. So, if you agree that Zechariah 14:16-19 should not be interpreted literally, then why are you so sure that Zechariah 14:12 should be taken literally?

Then if we factor in verses 17-19 that it too is meaning post the 2nd coming, how is it remotely reasonable that it will continue in that manner all throughout eternity?

You are the one claiming that those verses apply post 2nd coming, not me. Your question isn't a valid question to ask me.

After all, if Amil is correct that 1 Corinthians 15:28 is fulfilled the same day Christ returns, which is already absurd to begin with, this means verses 17-19 have to be applied to all of eternity since there would be no period of time after Christ returns, but before 1 Corinthians 15:28 is fulfilled, preventing these verses from continuing in that manner forever.

If your interpretation of Zechariah 14:17-19 was actually correct, then what you're saying would be true, but your interpretation of that passage is not correct. Your interpretations cause scripture to contradict itself.

And since it is absurd that verses 16-19 are applicable all throughout eternity, this means a period of time is required after the 2nd coming, but before 1 Corinthians 15:28 is fulfilled, that has a beginning and an end where verses 16-19 can fit, thus preventing them from continuing in that manner forever. If the millennium is not what can explain this, then what can explain it? Amil certainly doesn't have anything to explain it. No surprise there since Amil has zero to explain a lot of things like this.

Amil explains these things very easily, but you are so blinded by Premil that you can't see it. And Premil has no explanations whatsoever for how to reconcile passages like Matthew 24:35-39, Luke 17:26-37, 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9, 2 Peter 3:10-12 and Revelation 19:11-21 with their doctrine since all of those passages teach that all unbelievers will be killed when Christ returns, leaving no mortals to populate the imaginary earthly millennial kingdom that Premils falsely believe in.