It is seeing that there is a real devil behind spiritual attacks. He speaks. He has a voice. He is a real entity.
Satan and his demons are real beings/entities (with personalities) not abstract evil within unregenerate man
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Read multiple avoided posts on this thread and you will see that your argument has been totally refuted. Your fight is with scripture. You are running from the truth. You have no rebuttal for it.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Do you think Ezekiel 28 refers to Adam, as TribulationSigns claims? Where does scripture indicate that Adam ever claimed to be a god or that Adam was the anointed cherub who covers or that he was ever condemned by God the way Ezekiel 28 describes? Scripture never speaks of Adam in that way. Why are you so quick to defend someone like TribulationSigns who foolishly denies the existence of spirit beings called angels and demons/devils?
- Was the king of Tyrus an "anointed cherub" (Ezekiel 28:14&16)?
- Was he at one time in the "Paradise of God" (Ezekiel 28:13)?
- Did he protect "the holy mountain of God" (Ezekiel 28:14)?
- Was he created "perfect" in his ways "from the day" he was "created" till "iniquity was found in" him (Ezekiel 28:15)?
- Do you not believe in the total depravity of man any more?
Mat 28:1 In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.
Mat 28:2 And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it.
Mat 28:3 His countenance was like lightning, and his raiment white as snow:
Mat 28:4 And for fear of him the keepers did shake, and became as dead men.
Mat 28:5 And the angel answered and said unto the women, Fear not ye: for I know that ye seek Jesus, which was crucified.
Mat 28:6 He is not here: for he is risen, as he said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay.
Mat 28:7 And go quickly, and tell his disciples that he is risen from the dead; and, behold, he goeth before you into Galilee; there shall ye see him: lo, I have told you.
Mat 28:8 And they departed quickly from the sepulchre with fear and great joy; and did run to bring his disciples word.
Mar 16:1 And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him.
Mar 16:2 And very early in the morning the first dayof the week, they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun.
Mar 16:3 And they said among themselves, Who shall roll us away the stone from the door of the sepulchre?
Mar 16:4 And when they looked, they saw that the stone was rolled away: for it was very great.
Mar 16:5 And entering into the sepulchre, they saw a young man sitting on the right side, clothed in a long white garment; and they were affrighted.
Mar 16:6 And he saith unto them, Be not affrighted: Ye seek Jesus of Nazareth, which was crucified: he is risen; he is not here: behold the place where they laid him.
Mar 16:7 But go your way, tell his disciples and Peter that he goeth before you into Galilee: there shall ye see him, as he said unto you.
Mar 16:8 And they went out quickly, and fled from the sepulchre; for they trembled and were amazed: neither said they any thing to any man; for they were afraid.
Luk 24:4 And it came to pass, as they were much perplexed thereabout, behold, two men stood by them in shining garments:
Luk 24:5 And as they were afraid, and bowed down their faces to the earth, they said unto them, Why seek ye the living among the dead?
Luk 24:6 He is not here, but is risen: remember how he spake unto you when he was yet in Galilee,
Luk 24:7 Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again.
Joh 20:11 Mary stood without at the sepulchre weeping: and as she wept, she stooped down, and looked into the sepulchre,
Joh 20:12 And seeth two angels in white sitting, the one at the head, and the other at the feet, where the body of Jesus had lain.
Joh 20:13 And they say unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? She saith unto them, Because they have taken away my Lord, and I know not where they have laid him.
Are these two of the redeemed who had conquered the grave before Jesus coming from heaven to open His tomb?
- How can redeemed spirits (elect angels in your opinion) be with God before man was even born?
- How can redeemed spirits (elect angels in your opinion) be coming down from heaven in the Old Testament before the first resurrection of Jesus occurred?
- How can the spirits of wicked men (demons in your opinion) be entering into other wicked men, even to the number of Legion?
Luk 2:8 And there were in the same country shepherds abiding in the field, keeping watch over their flock by night.
Luk 2:9 And, lo, the angel of the Lord came upon them, and the glory of the Lord shone round about them: and they were sore afraid.
Luk 2:10 And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people.
Luk 2:11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.
Luk 2:12 And this shall be a sign unto you; Ye shall find the babe wrapped in swaddling clothes, lying in a manger.
Luk 2:13 And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God, and saying,
Luk 2:14 Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men.
Luk 2:15 And it came to pass, as the angels were gone away from them into heaven, the shepherds said one to another, Let us now go even unto Bethlehem, and see this thing which is come to pass, which the Lord hath made known unto us.
How can redeemed spirits (elect angels in your opinion) be going back and forth from heaven in the New Testament before the first resurrection of Jesus occurred?
Act 5:18 And laid their hands on the apostles, and put them in the common prison.
Act 5:19 But the angel of the Lord by night opened the prison doors, and brought them forth, and said,
Act 5:20 Go, stand and speak in the temple to the people all the words of this life.
As you do not believe in real heavenly angelic beings, was this one of the spirits of the Old Testament prophets who come back from the dead to let these men out of the prison? Or, was it one of the living apostles that broke into the prison and got them out?
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jeffweeder
Well-Known Member
Is Satan or was he ever called anointed cherub?
How was the serpent in the paradise of God?
Revelation 2:7 (KJV) He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
How or when did Satan protect the holy mountain of God?
Since Satan was from the beginning a murderer and liar when does Scripture tell us Satan was created perfect in his ways from the day he was created (whenever was that?) until iniquity was found in him?
John 8:44 (KJV) Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
Man was created very good but MAN, not SATAN became fallen when they freely chose to disobey God, now ALL mankind is born natural and in a fallen state under the same evil influence from their father the devil, that brought sin and death through sin into creation. It is for this cause that ALL men must be born again to have eternal life through another Spirit within them!
You just make stuff up??? Isn't it you who denies real angels of God, trying desperately to prove Satan was before he sinned created to be an angel of God? As I've repeatedly shown you angels of God are ministering spirits sent to minister to heirs of salvation. Is that not what the angel of the Lord is depicted here doing?
stevesonthebay
Active Member
Why do you continue to duck around my questions? What is more, I have already addressed and rebutted your argument above and you have already avoided my rebuttal.
The phase "the beginning" typically refers to the beginning of creation and earth. Just like the regeneration when Jesus comes refers to "the end" of creation and earth as we know it. Every solid theologian I know believes that Satan rebelled and fell before the beginning of creation and earth. He was a leader of the angelic host in. heaven.
The beginning
We see a reference to the beginning of time in Isaiah 41:4: “Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning [Heb. rô'sh]? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he.”
Isaiah 41:4 corresponds with what is taught in Revelation 22:6 and
Revelation 22:13. It presents the same great truth. This word indeed describes the commencement of time.
As for the New Testament word for “the beginning,” the word archē is employed throughout to describe the creation week. We see Jesus employing it in Matthew 19:4: “Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female.”
So, these three original words ably describe the beginning of human existence, time and creation as we know it.
Heaven and earth created at the beginning
So, according to Scripture, what happened at the beginning?
- It was the beginning of natural creation.
- It was the beginning of human life.
- It was the beginning of time.
I want you to see something very important here: the beginning is often identified in Scripture with creation. You will notice that throughout the Word of God. We will be highlighting that as we progress in our studies.
Natural creation commenced at the beginning.
In Isaiah 40:21 we learn: “Have ye not known? have ye not heard? hath it not been told you from the beginning [Heb. rô'sh]? have ye not understood from the foundations of the earth?”
What is this telling us? The exact same thing, only in different terms. This is called synonymous parallelism. It is telling us that to know “from the beginning” is to know from “the foundations of the earth.” These are synonymous realities.
Solomon places both occurrences together in Proverbs 8:23 in his succinct statement: “I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning [Heb. rô'sh], or ever the earth was.”
This word rô'sh takes us back to the start, when the earth was created, the genesis of man and creation began, which saw the origin of life as we know it and the commencement of time.
Believers through the years have little difficulty with grasping this great truth. This is not just restricted to the Old Testament pages. We find it throughout the New Testament.
Believers through the years have little difficulty with grasping this great truth. This is not just restricted to the Old Testament pages. We find it throughout the New Testament. For example, Hebrews 1:10-12 reinforces this thought, only in greater detail, “Thou, Lord, in the beginning [Gr. archē] hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old [Gr. palaioo] as doth a garment; And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed [Gr. allasso]: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.”
Here we see the duration of this current earth and the whole span of time outlined from the beginning till the end. This corresponds with the current creation around us. It describes the forming of the earth (which was originally perfect), followed by the gradual decay after the Fall (because of the bondage of corruption), and its final replacement at the end to a new glorified eternal incorrupt status.
The two words that are used in the New Testament to describe the start and finish of this current temporal state of time are archē meaning “beginning” and telos meaning “end.” They are the antithesis of each other. The word archē basically means the origin or the commencement. The word telos means the termination, completion or that by which a thing is finished. Notably, the Bible continually relates this phrase “the end” [Gr. telos] to the second coming. The Lord’s return is shown to usher in the completion of this age and of time.
Scripture constantly shows the creation of this earth and the beginning of this world to be the beginning of this age. Likewise, the end of this world and the regeneration of this earth is repeatedly shown to correspond with the end of this age. Time and history find themselves sandwiched in between these two great events. Simply put: “this age” refers to “time” and “the age to come” or the “hereafter” refers to “eternity.”
This corrupt earth is not going to last forever. It has an expiration date. You will discover that it is the glorious return of Jesus Christ.
Scripture constantly shows the creation of this earth and the beginning of this world to be the beginning of this age. Likewise, the end of this world and the regeneration of this earth is repeatedly shown to correspond with the end of this age. Time and history find themselves sandwiched in between these two great events.
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As you keep ducking around the issues/questions, I will repeat
- Was the king of Tyrus an "anointed cherub" (Ezekiel 28:14&16)?
- Was he at one time in the "Paradise of God" (Ezekiel 28:13)?
- Did he protect "the holy mountain of God" (Ezekiel 28:14)?
- Was he created "perfect" in his ways "from the day" he was "created" till "iniquity was found in" him (Ezekiel 28:15)?
- Do you not believe in the total depravity of man any more?
soberxp
Well-Known Member
When I was a child, I saw a small snake walking on the water surface. Then the adults thought the snake was going to bite me, and as a result, it was killed. I felt that the snake seemed to be trying to prove something, to dispel the stigma attached to them. Don't you think that all the snakes in this world are devils and Satan?
I agree. But they are not humans. They are not the human spirit. They can influence humans. The demonic spirits can control the wicked and resist the righteous. They can enter and leave humans. They can also enter into animals. These are not human spirits, they are distinct from humans. They are angelic spirits that are either elect or evil angels.
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