IF YOU ONLY FOLLOW JESUS THEN YOU MUST KEEP THE LAW

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HealthyShape

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Christ came to free us from sin... so you interpret that to mean we are free from the law which points out sin?
Our conscience and in Christians the Holy Spirit convince us of sin. Not the Mosaic Law that gives the Iron Age instructions about slavery, about divorce, about "eye for eye", about stoning people, about what to eat or to hate enemies. Such instructions are obsolete for us today and could actually be against Christian teachings, obviously.

And Christ did not keep them.

What church are you from, if any? Do you have the Holy Spirit?
 
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shepherdsword

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Christ came to free us from sin... so you interpret that to mean we are free from the law which points out sin?
Gal 3:24-26
Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
 

Soyeong

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Gal 3:24-26
Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Someone who disregarded everything that their schoolmaster taught them after they graduated would be missing the whole point of a schoolmaster. God's Word leads us to God's Word's Word made flesh because it is His instructions for how to know him, but it does not lead us to him so that we can then reject everything he is and go back to being doers of what it reveals to be wickedness. In Acts 3:25-26, Jesus was sent as the promised seed to bless us by turning us from our wickedness.

For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
In Galatians 3:25-29, every aspect of being children of God, through faith, in Christ, and children of Abraham and heirs to the promise is directly connected with being doers of the Law of God. In 1 John 3:4-10, those who are not doers of righteous works in obedience to the Law of God are not children of God, and in Romana 8:4-14, Paul contrasted those who are born of the Spirit with those who have minds set on the flesh who are enemies of God who refuse to submit to the Law of God. In Matthew 23:23, Christ said that faith is one of the weightier matters of the Law of God. In 1 John 2:6, those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way that he walked. In John 8:39, Jesus said that if they were children of Abraham then they would be doers of the same works as him.
 

shepherdsword

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Someone who disregarded everything that their schoolmaster taught them after they graduated would be missing the whole point of a schoolmaster.
Yes but after we graduate by coming to Jesus we are no longer under the schoolmaster.
In Galatians 3:25-29, every aspect of being children of God, through faith, in Christ, and children of Abraham and heirs to the promise is directly connected with being doers of the Law of God.
We fulfil the law of Christ by walking in the Spirit.

2 Co 3:6
Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.


If we have faith in Jesus we are no longer under the schoolmaster (law)

Gal 3:24-26
Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.(
read this part) But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
 
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soberxp

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Obey the law, the work of the law,
Without love, nothing exists...
1 Corinthians 8:1
Now as touching things offered unto idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth.
 

JLB

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[Matthew 5:17 KJV] "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil."
[Matthew 5:18 KJV] "For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."
[Matthew 5:19 KJV] "Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."
[Matthew 5:20 KJV] "For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed [the righteousness] of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven."

There are those who say Jesus was talking only about the ten commandments, but in the above passage Jesus is talking about the commandments of the law, not just the ten.

There are those who say they follow Jesus. If that is the case then you must also keep the law.
There are those who say we aren't obligated to keep the ceremonial laws. I don't agree with this. I say if you contend we must keep the law then we would have to keep the entire law. Nevertheless, I will not consider the ceremonial sacrificial laws. What I will do, is cite the laws and commandments that you would have to keep to follow Jesus teaching you to keep the commandments.

[Leviticus 11:4 KJV] "Nevertheless these shall ye not eat of them that chew the cud, or of them that divide the hoof: [as] the camel, because he cheweth the cud, but divideth not the hoof; he [is] unclean unto you."
[Leviticus 11:5 KJV] "And the coney, because he cheweth the cud, but divideth not the hoof; he [is] unclean unto you."
[Leviticus 11:6 KJV] "And the hare, because he cheweth the cud, but divideth not the hoof; he [is] unclean unto you."
[Leviticus 11:7 KJV] "And the swine, though he divide the hoof, and be clovenfooted, yet he cheweth not the cud; he [is] unclean to you."

[Leviticus 12:3 KJV] "And in the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised."

[Leviticus 19:19 KJV] "Ye shall keep my statutes. Thou shalt not let thy cattle gender with a diverse kind: thou shalt not sow thy field with mingled seed: neither shall a garment mingled of linen and woollen come upon thee."

[Leviticus 19:26 KJV] "Ye shall not eat [any thing] with the blood: neither shall ye use enchantment, nor observe times."

[Leviticus 19:27 KJV] "Ye shall not round the corners of your heads, neither shalt thou mar the corners of thy beard."

[Leviticus 19:30 KJV] "Ye shall keep my sabbaths, and reverence my sanctuary: I [am] the LORD."

[Leviticus 23:4 KJV] "These [are] the feasts of the LORD, [even] holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons."

If you want to keep the commandments for a blessing then you also have to accept that there were also cursing's for not keeping them.

[Leviticus 26:15 KJV] "And if ye shall despise my statutes, or if your soul abhor my judgments, so that ye will not do all my commandments, [but] that ye break my covenant:"
[Leviticus 26:16 KJV] "I also will do this unto you; I will even appoint over you terror, consumption, and the burning ague, that shall consume the eyes, and cause sorrow of heart: and ye shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it."

You would have to justify saying Jesus only meant to keep the ten commandments and explain why the law Jesus said to keep could be set aside as not pertaining to you.

Do you believe a person must become physically circumcised and offer animal sacrifices, and observe strict Sabbath commands to be saved?
 

Soyeong

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Yes but after we graduate by coming to Jesus we are no longer under the schoolmaster.

We fulfil the law of Christ by walking in the Spirit.
The way to come to God's Word made flesh is not by rejecting God's Word. Christ fulfilled the Law of God by teaching his followers how to correctly obey it by word and by example and the way to come to him is not by refusing to follow what he taught.

God's character traits are the fruits of the Spirit and the Law of God is His instructions for how to embody His character traits, which is why the Spirit has been given to those who obey God (Acts 5:32). In John 16:13, the Spirit has the role of leading us in truth, in Ezekiel 36:26-27, the Spirit has the role of leading us to obey the Law of God, and in Psalm 119:142, the Law of God is truth. In John 16:8, the Spirit has the role of convicting us of sin, and in Romans 3:20, it is by the Law of God that we have knowledge of what sin is. In Romans 8:4-7, Paul contrasted those who walk in the Spirit with those who have minds set on the flesh who are enemies of God who refuse to submit to the Law of God. In Galatians 5:16-23, Paul contrasted the desires of the flesh with the desires of the Spirit and everything that he listed as works of the flesh that are against the Spirit are also against the Law of God while all of the fruits of the Spirit are aspects of God's character traits that the Law of God was given in order to teach us how to embody. In Romans 2:25-29, the way to recognize that a Gentile has a circumcised heart is by observing their obedience to the Law of God, which is the same way to tell for a Jew (Deuteronomy 30:6), and circumcision of the heart is a matter of the Spirit, which is in contrast with Acts 7:51-53, where those who have uncircumcised hearts resist the Spirit and do not obey the Law of God. The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact likeness of His character (Hebrews 1:3), which he embodied through his works by setting a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to the Law of the Spirt/God.

2 Co 3:6
Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
In Romans 10:5-8, Paul referred to Deuteronomy 30 as the word of faith that we proclaim in regard to the righteousness that is by faith proclaiming that the Law of God is not too difficult for us to obey and that obedience to it brings life and a blessing while disobedience brings death and a curse, so chose life! Deuteronomy 32:46-47, the Law of God is our very life. In Proverbs 3:18, it is a Tree of Life for all who take hold of it. In Proverbs 6:23, for the commandment is a lamp and the teaching a light, and the reproofs of discipline are the way of life. In Revelation 22:14, those who kept God's commandments are given the right to eat from the Tree of Life. In Luke 10:25-28, Jesus affirmed that the way to inherit eternal life is by obeying the greatest two commandments. In Matthew 19:17, Jesus said that the way to have eternal life is by obeying God's commandments. In Romans 2:6-7, Paul said that those who persist in doing good will be given eternal life. In Romans 6:19-23, we are no longer to present ourselves as slaves to impurity, lawlessness, and sin, but are now to present ourselves as slaves to God and to righteousness leading to sanctification, and the goal of sanctification is eternal life in Christ, which is the gift of God, so being a doer of the Law of God is His gift of eternal life.

In Jeremiah 31:33, the New Covenant involves God putting the Law of God in our minds and writing it on our hearts, and in Ezekiel 36:26-27,m it involves God taking away our hearts of stone, giving us hearts of flesh, and sending His Spirit to lead us to obey His law. So the Bible repeatedly states that the New Covenant involves following the Law of God, that the Spirit has the role of leading us to obey it, and that obedience to it brings life, so that verse needs to be understood in a way that is in accordance with the rest of the Bible rather than a way that overturns it. If following the letter referred to correctly following God's instructions and that leads to death, then that would mean that God would be misleading us and should not be trusted, so there must be something deficient about following the letter that is not correctly following God's instructions that causes it to lead to death rather than life.

If we have faith in Jesus we are no longer under the schoolmaster (law)
God's Word is His instructions for how to have faith in God's Word made flesh. We embody what we believe to be true about God through our works, such as with James 2:18 saying that he would show his faith through his works, so everyone who is a doer of the same works as James has faith in Jesus. In other words, the way to believe in God is by embodying His character traits. For example, by being a doer of good works in obedience to the Law of God we are embodying God's goodness, which is why our good works bring glory to God (Matthew 5:16), and by embodying God's goodness we are also embodying the belief that God is good. Likewise, the way to believe that God is compassionate is by being compassionate (Luke 6:36), the way to believe that God is holy is by being a doer of His instructions for how to be holy as He is holy, and so forth. This is exactly the same as the way to believe in the Son, who is the radiance of God's glory and the exact likeness of His character (Hebrews 1:3), which he embodied through his works by setting a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to the Law of God. This is also why the Bible frequently connects our belief in God with our obedience to Him, such as with Revelation 14:12 where those who kept faith in Jesus are the same as those who kept God's commandments.
 

Wick Stick

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There are those who say they follow Jesus. If that is the case then you must also keep the law.
Reminds me of something else in Matthew...

Matthew 23:4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay [them] on men's shoulders; but they [themselves] will not move them with one of their fingers.
 
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Soyeong

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Reminds me of something else in Matthew...

Matthew 23:4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay [them] on men's shoulders; but they [themselves] will not move them with one of their fingers.
Jesus set a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to the Law of God, so he was much more zealous for obedience to it than the Pharisees were and it is absurd to interpret that verses as Jesus criticizing them teaching people to do what God commanded them to do.
 

shepherdsword

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The way to come to God's Word made flesh is not by rejecting God's Word.
Then why do you reject it when it says we are no longer under the law?
In Romans 10:5-8, Paul referred to Deuteronomy 30 as the word of faith that we proclaim in regard to the righteousness that is by faith proclaiming that the Law of God

No, you are misreading the passage. It states that the righteousness of faith is DIFFERENT than the righteousness of the law.. also...you missed verse four that clearly states:

Ro 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.


is not too difficult for us to obey and that obedience to it brings life and a blessing while disobedience brings death and a curse, so chose life!
The law was a yoke that the Jews could not bear:

Gal 4:21-5:1
Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law? For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband. Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now. Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free. Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

In Jeremiah 31:33, the New Covenant involves God putting the Law of God in our minds and writing it on our hearts, and in Ezekiel 36:26-27,m it involves God taking away our hearts of stone, giving us hearts of flesh, and sending His Spirit to lead us to obey His law.
To obey the law of the spirit...not the letter of the law

2 Co 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.





 

Wick Stick

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Jesus set a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to the Law of God, so he was much more zealous for obedience to it than the Pharisees were and it is absurd to interpret that verses as Jesus criticizing them teaching people to do what God commanded them to do.
That would be an absurd interpretation. That isn't what's happening here.

What's happening here is that Doug, the original poster, believes in a theory of two gospels. He would like all of us to abandon the gospel of Jesus in favor of the gospel of Paul, as proclaimed by Doug. To that end, he has advanced the idea that if we follow Jesus, we have to follow the whole Mosaic Law.

In other words, Doug is the one trying to bind a grievous burden on everyone, so that he can then "unburden" us by having us... not follow Jesus. It's Doug's sophistry here that reminds me of this verse. It has little/nothing to do with the pharisees in the 1st century.
 
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HealthyShape

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Jesus set a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to the Law of God, so he was much more zealous for obedience to it than the Pharisees were and it is absurd to interpret that verses as Jesus criticizing them teaching people to do what God commanded them to do.
Is it sin to hate your enemy or to love your enemy? Because the Old Testament law taught to hate your enemy, but Jesus taught to love your enemy.

Explain that.
 
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soberxp

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Is it sin to hate your enemy or to love your enemy? Because the Old Testament law taught to hate your enemy, but Jesus taught to love your enemy.

Explain that.
Where in OT told hate the enemy? Only obey the The commandment of God,not Only the ten commandment of God.
If God said do not kill and said to kill.
Now our God never said to killing now.

Ecclesiastes
3:2 A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;

3:3 A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;
 

Soyeong

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That would be an absurd interpretation. That isn't what's happening here.

What's happening here is that Doug, the original poster, believes in a theory of two gospels. He would like all of us to abandon the gospel of Jesus in favor of the gospel of Paul, as proclaimed by Doug. To that end, he has advanced the idea that if we follow Jesus, we have to follow the whole Mosaic Law.

In other words, Doug is the one trying to bind a grievous burden on everyone, so that he can then "unburden" us by having us... not follow Jesus. It's Doug's sophistry here that reminds me of this verse. It has little/nothing to do with the pharisees in the 1st century.
In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and the Law of Moses was how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so repenting from our disobedience to it is a central part of the Gospel of the Kingdom/Grace, which Paul also taught based on the Law of Moses (Acts 14:21-22, 20:24-25, 28:23). Christ also set a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to the Law of Moses and as his followers we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22), that those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way that he walked (1 John 2:6), and to be imitators of Paul as he is of Christ (1 Corinthians 11:1). So both Jesus and Paul taught to follow the Law of Moses by word and by example and I don't see how someone can follow them instead of following what they taught.
 

amigo de christo

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That would be an absurd interpretation. That isn't what's happening here.

What's happening here is that Doug, the original poster, believes in a theory of two gospels. He would like all of us to abandon the gospel of Jesus in favor of the gospel of Paul, as proclaimed by Doug. To that end, he has advanced the idea that if we follow Jesus, we have to follow the whole Mosaic Law.

In other words, Doug is the one trying to bind a grievous burden on everyone, so that he can then "unburden" us by having us... not follow Jesus. It's Doug's sophistry here that reminds me of this verse. It has little/nothing to do with the pharisees in the 1st century.
The man is blind .
Pauls gospel WAS THE SAME GOSPEL as the apostels had taught , as well as did JESUS .
In fact paul himself when writing to the church had this to say
ONLY they said HE who once persecuted the church , NOW PREACHES THE VERY FAITH he once DESTROYED .
ITS THE SAME GOSPEL . it always was . IT is for BOTH JEW and GENTILE .
doug has no idea what he talks about at all .
 

HealthyShape

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So both Jesus and Paul taught to follow the Law of Moses by word and by example
:D Sure, for example when He left go the woman caught in adultery who would have to be stoned to death according to the Law of Moses or when He taught to not apply the "an eye for an eye" from the Law of Moses or when He cancelled the "hate your enemy" from the Law of Moses, just like that. Or when He cleaned all food and basically all external causes of uncleanness from the Law of Moses or when He cancelled the rules for divorce from the Law of Moses...

Your teachings are quite absurd. You should join a church and listen to them instead of inventing things.
 
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Wick Stick

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In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and the Law of Moses was how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so repenting from our disobedience to it is a central part of the Gospel of the Kingdom/Grace, which Paul also taught based on the Law of Moses (Acts 14:21-22, 20:24-25, 28:23). Christ also set a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to the Law of Moses and as his followers we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22), that those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way that he walked (1 John 2:6), and to be imitators of Paul as he is of Christ (1 Corinthians 11:1). So both Jesus and Paul taught to follow the Law of Moses by word and by example and I don't see how someone can follow them instead of following what they taught.
Yes, Paul and Jesus preach the same gospel. We agree.
 
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Do you believe a person must become physically circumcised and offer animal sacrifices, and observe strict Sabbath commands to be saved?
Did Paul teach circumcision? Yes.
Animal sacrifice is a red herring.
Jesus was the unblemished lamb sacrificed once for the sins of the world.

Sabbath was made for man,not man for the Sabbath.

Something many Christians don't know,and I think our churches are partly responsible for this,is that the Tanakh does not say Jews work to attain salvation by obeying Torah.

Theirs is a covenant of faithfulness. Their salvation is not earned.They are already in a covenant with God.
Keeping God's laws is showing reverance for what is already their existing Salvation .