We embody what we believe what we believe to be true about God through our works, such as with James 2:18 saying that he would show his faith through his works, so everyone who is a doer of the same works as James believes in Jesus. In other words, the way to believe in God is by embodying His character traits. For example, by being a doer o good works in obedience to the Torah we are embodying God's goodness, which is why our good works bring glory to Him (Matthew 5:16), and by embodying God's goodness we are also embodying the belief that God is good. Likewise, the way to believe that God is compassionate is by being compassionate (Luke 6:36), the way to believe that God is holy is by being a doer of His instructions for how to be holy as He is holy (1 Peter 1:16), and so forth. This is exactly the same as the way to believe in the Son, who is the radiance of God's glory and the exact likeness of His character (Hebrews 1:3), which he embodied through his works by setting a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to the Torah, so the Torah points us to Christ by teaching us how to embody His character traits. This is why the Bible frequently connects our faith in God with ur obedience to Him, such as with Revelation 14:12 where those who kept faith in Jesus are the same as those who kept God's commandments, so if one person says that they have faith in Jesus but refuses to follow his example of obedience to the the Torah while another person says that they don't believe in Jesus but they are doing the same works as James in obedience to the Torah, then it is the latter who actually believes in Jesus and who did the will of the Father.
IF YOU ONLY FOLLOW JESUS THEN YOU MUST KEEP THE LAW
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Being a Christian is by definition about being a follower of what Christ taught, not about refusing to follow what He taught.
Jesus quoted three times from Deuteronomy in order to defeat the temptations of Satan, which included saying that man shall not live by bread alone but by every word that comes from the mouth of God, so he affirmed God as being an authoritative source, which includes affirming what God spoke in Deuteronomy 5:12-15 in regard to keeping the Sabbath holy, and we have no need for the NT to specifically repeat everything that God has spoken in order to know that we should live by every word that God has come from the mouth of God. Jesus also taught to repent from our sins and sin is the transgression of the Law of God (1 John 3:4), which includes the command to keep the Sabbath holy. Moreover, Jesus would have still taught full obedience to the Law of God by example even if he had not repeated any commands and as his followers we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22) and that those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way that he walked (1 John 2:6). In 1 Peter 1:16, we are told to be holy as God is holy, which is a quote from Leviticus where God was giving instructions for how to do that, which includes keeping HIs Sabbaths holy (Leviticus 19:2-3). Likewise, in Acts 15:21, they expected that Gentiles would continue to learn about how to obey Moses by hearing him taught every Sabbath in the synagogues.
In Colossians 2:16-23, the Colossians were keeping God's feasts in accordance with the example that Christ set for us to follow, they were being judged for doing that by pagans who were promoting human traditions, precepts, and teachings, self-made religion, asceticism, and severity to the body, and Paul was encouraging them not to let anyone judge them for doing that and prevent them from obeying God.
That verses notably does not mention the Sabbath precisely because it has nothing to do with the topic Paul was discussing in that chapter. In Romans 14:1, the topic of the chapter was in regard to how to handle disputable matters of opinion in which God has given no command, not in regard to whether followers of God should follow God, so nothing in the chapter should be interpreted as speaking against following God. For example, in Romans 14:2-3, they were judging and resenting each other based on whether they chose to eat only vegetables even though God did not command to do that.
In Romans 14:4-6, Paul spoke in regard to those who eat or refrain from eating unto the Lord, so he was speaking about those who esteem certain days for fasting as a disputable matter of opinion. For example, it had become a common practice in the 1st century for people to fast twice a week even though God did not command that and people were judging and resenting each other based on whether or not they chose to do that. Paul was not suggesting that we are free to break the Sabbath or to commit idolatry, murder, adultery, theft, rape, kidnaping, favoritism, or to disobey any of God's other commands just as long as we are convinced in our own minds that it is ok to disobey God, but rather that was only said in regard to disputable matters of opinion in which God has given no command.
Human opinion must yield where God has commanded. The reason why we are to keep the Sabbath holy is not because man esteemed it as a disputable matter of opinion but because God rested on it, blessed it, made it holy, He makes us holy, and because He commanded to keep it holy. The Sabbath is holy to God regardless of whether we keep it holy and what is holy to God should not be profaned by man, so we would still be obligated to keep the Sabbath holy even if God has never commanded anyone to do that.
In Galatians 4:8-11, Paul addressed those verses to those who formerly did not know God who were enslaved to those that by nature are not gods, who were returning to being enslaved by them after they have come to know and be known by God. So it doesn't work to interpret these verses as Paul criticizing them for returning to following God's instructions for how to know and by known by Him, but rather was clearly criticizing former pagans who returning to following pagan holy days.
It is super easy to interpret the Bible as speaking against obeying what God has commanded if that is what you want to do, but it should not make sense to you to interpret servants of God as doing that.
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Marvelloustime
Well-Known Member
You cannot create your own version of what Christ taught. Church is there to bear the witness about Christ and to define what Christian means. What church are you from?
The authors of those books should not be interpreted as contradicting what they considered to be Scripture or as speaking against following what Christ taught.
In Deuteronomy 5:31-33, Moses wrote down everything that God commanded him without departing from it, which is why the Law of Moses is called the Law of God in verses like Nehemiah 8:1-8, Ezra 7:6-12, and Luke 2:22-23. In Romans 7-8:2, Paul said that the Law of God is good, that he wanted to do good, that he delighted in obey it, and that he served it with his mind in contrast with the law of sin, which was working within his members to cause him not to do the good that he wanted to do, which was waging war against the law of his mind, which he served with his flesh, which held him captive, and which the Law of the Spirit has freed us from. So he equated the Law of the Spirit with the Law of God, which is the Law that God gave to Moses.
Again, that does not mean that what I said about righteousness and Galatians 4-5:1 isn't also true. If you believe that the Law of Moses was given because of transgressions and that we should refrain from transgressions, then you should be arguing in favor obedience to it.
The Law of life in Christ is the Law of Moses. Christ set a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to the Law of Moses and those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way that he walked (1 John 2:6). The way to surrender to the will of God is not by refusing to follow Christ's example of obedience to what God has commanded. Again, in Romans 8:4-7, those who have carnal minds are those who refuse to submit to the Law of God. In Galatians 5:16-23, Paul contracted carnal desires with the desires of the Spirit and everything that he listed as carnal works that are against the Spirit are also against the Law of Moses while all of the fruits of the Spirit are aspects of God's character that the Law of Moses was given in order to teach us how to embody.
According to Galatians 5:14, anyone who has loved their neighbor has fulfilled the entire law, so it refers to something that countless people have done and should continue to do in perpetuity, not to something that only Christ did.
Again, I have not claimed that we can become justified as there result of keeping the Sabbath. We can't earn our justification even as the result of having perfect obedience to the Law of God because it was never given as a way of doing that (Romans 4:1-5), so that has always been a fundamental misunderstand of the goal of the law.
By all means, please interact with what I've said about Romans 10:5-8, Deuteronomy 30, and the Psalms to explain why you think I don't understand them.
In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and the Law of Moses was how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so repenting from our disobedience to it is a central part of the Gospel message, which Peter argued in Acts 15:6-7 that Gentiles had heard and believed, so he was agreeing with the Pharisees from among the believers. In Ezekiel 36:26-27, God will take away our hearts of stone, give us hearts of flesh, and send His Spirit to lead us in obedience to the Law of Moses, which is in accordance with what Peter argued in Acts 15:8-9 that Gentiles had received the Spirt and had their hearts cleansed, so again he was agreeing with the Pharisees. In Psalm 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey the Law of Moses, and he chose the way of faith by setting it before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith, which is in accordance with what Peter argued in Acts 15:10-11 that Gentiles are saves by grace just as we are, so again he sided with the Pharisees.
In Acts 15:11, it makes it clear that the yoke that no one could bear was not the Law of Moses, but a means of salvation that is an alternative to salvation by grace, namely salvation by circumcision that was proposed by the men from Judea (Acts 15:1). Again, if they had been referring to the Law of Moses as being a yoke that no one could bear, then they would have been denying what Paul said is the word of faith that we proclaim, they would have been in direct disagreement with God, and they would have been expressing a view that is incompatible with the view that the Psalms are Scripture.
Do you think that those verses contain an exhaustive list for mature believers?
Either those verses contain an exhaustive list for mature believers or they do not, so it would be contradictory to treat them as being an exhaustive list in order to limit which laws Gentiles should follow while also treating it as being a non-exhaustive list by taking the position that there are obviously other laws that Gentiles should follow. It was no given an exhaustive list for mature believers but as a list intended to avoid making things too difficult for new believers, which they excused by saying that Gentiles would continue to learn about how to obey Moses every Sabbath in the synagogues.
The Bible frequently connects our faith with our obedience to what God has commanded. For example, in James 2:18, he would show his faith through is works. In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of the Law of Moses. In Romans 1:5, we have received grace in order to bring about the obedience of faith. In Romans 3:31, our faith upholds the Law of Moses. In John 3:16-21 and 3:36, it connects believing in the Son with our obedience. In Revelation 14:12, those who kept faith in Jesus are the same as those who obeyed God's commandments. In Psalms 119:30, he chose the way of faith by setting the Law of Moses before him. In Hebrews 11, every example of faith is an example of works. In Hebrews 3:18-19, it equated unbelief with disobedience. In Numbers 5:6, it describes disobedience as breaking faith. And so forth. God is trustworthy, therefore His law is also trustworthy (Psalm 19:7), so the way to have faith in God is by obediently having faith in His instructions and it would be contradictory to think that we should have faith in God but not in His instructions.
I quoted many verses to counter your misinterpretation of that verse that you continue to ignore.
Nowhere does the Bible state that the God gave the law in order to show how utterly depraved we are. Jesus saves us from our sin (Matthew 1:21) and it is by the Law of Moses that we have knowledge of what sin is (Romans 3:20), so Jesus graciously teaching us to be doers of it is intrinsically the way that he giving us his gift of saving us from from not being doers of it, which is also the way that he is giving us his gift of righteousness. The Law of God was never given in order to teach us how to save ourselves, but rather God graciously teaching us to be doers of it is how He is saving us.
I did not create my own version of what Christ taught. In Matthew 4:15-23, Christ began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and the Law of Moses was how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so repenting from our disobedience to it is a central part of the Gospel message. Christ also set a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to the Law of Moses and as his followers we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22) and that those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way that he walked (1 John 2:6). So Christ spent his ministry teaching his followers to obey the Law of Moses by word and by example. We can't follow God's Word made flesh instead of following his example of embodying God's Word.
I practice Messianic Judaism.
The New Testament was written and given to you by the Church. The Church which you reject to submit to. You do not listen to Christians what is meant by the writings they wrote and you try to push your own private interpretations, instead. Your attitude is completely absurd.
My question was what church you are from. Not what you think you practice.
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amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
confuscious do as confuscious do . just dont expect me to do as his mumbo jumbo confusion says to do .
YOU simply make excuse for a harlot and her love .
SO allow me to say somet hing
and answer real simple like okay .
Every other religoin is false and of satan .
And even the jews who believe NOT on JESUS
are doing and do teh works of their father , just not THE FATHER . .
Because anyone WHO IS OF GOD would hear GODS words .
ANYONE of GOD would hear the gospel of JESUS CHRIST and believe , NOT have said , NOPE to it
and then did all the so called works of the law .
SO remember this day .
ANYONE who hears the gospel and rejects JESUS AS THE CHRIST , AS THE , THE , THE SON OF GOD
Well they do the works of satan . WHICH that just excluded all them false relgions as even knowing let alone loving GOD .
CAUSE HAD THEY LOVED GOD they had LOVE JESUS CHRIST WHO IS OF GOD . so
what you think about THAT .
Oh and if anyone does LIP the name of JESUS yet loves sin and walks in it , YEAH , THEY DONT KNOW him EITHER .
Faith without works is dead . BUT all the works in the world WITHOUT FAITH IN JESUS , CAN SAVE NO MAN .
NO not even cornelious who did many good works
YET STILL NEEDED TO HEAR AND TO BELEIVE THE GOSPEL TO BE SAVED .
SO , again what DO YOU think about this . AM i a hater who knows not the love and mercy of GOD
OR am i simply saying what every single apostle would have , AS WELL AS JESUS HIMSELF .
That , my friend i leave FOR YOU to decide . But here is what will help you decide
whether i speak of my own or whether i do speak truth .
Ready
steady
OPEN BIBLE AND START SEEING what JESUS said and later the apostels did . YOU SEE
who and what THEY PREACHED in the book of acts as well . Hurry now , there is no time LIKE RIGHT NOW
to get into that bible for oneself .
If you think that my interpretation is wrong, then by all means please explain why you think so. While I appreciate those who have preserved the Bible, that doesn't necessity mean that their interpretations of the Bible are correct, but rather their interpretations of the Bible should stand or fall on their own merits or flaws. We must obey God rather than man, so if the Church teaches against following Christ's example of obedience to what God has commanded, then followers of Christ should follow his example of obedience to what God has commanded rather than the Church.
I attend Beth Immanuel.
They were both CLEARLY opposing the law of Moses as a way of salvation and a mandate on the gentiles
Thanks for proving that the law cannot save, that even the apostle Paul couldn't keep it.
Yes, it means that you have twisted that chapter into a sad caricature of it's intended meaning
This is utter garbage. Paul said that the law of life in Christ Jesus made him free from the law of sin and death (Moses' law)
Let's examine it.
Ro 8:2-3
for the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Paul makes a clear distinction here.
We can only walk the way Christ walked and fulfill the righteousness of the law by walking in the Spirit. It cannot be achieved by walking in the flesh trying to fulfil the Mosiac law. If we could do that Jesus would never have been crucified. HE was able to fulfill the law and we can only do the same by walking in him
If we could fulfil the law, as you claim, why do we need a savior? Paul was referring to doing that by a walk in the Spirit. read the the next two verses
Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
That is how we love our neighbor and fulfil the law
You are partly right here...except the foundation of the law is to teach us that we are hopelessly lost and need a savior. I'm glad to see you back peddle and admit we cannot keep it
Because you are mixing law with the gospel just as the Judaizers Paul rebuked did in Galatian
The yoke was absolutely referring to the law of Moses.
Ac 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
The entire discourse in Act 15 was in reference to that. It was decided that they did not.
It wasn't meant to be an exhaustive list...of course we should not kill, lie or steal. It was given as a mandate to exempt the gentiles from the pharisees enforcement of the law
yes, faith without works is dead. In every new testament command there is the power contained to obey it...if we have faith. We can connect with the power of the Spirit to do so. That is not true of the Mosiac law. It was held up as a high and holy standard that no man could fulfill.
You didn't counter anything and the only think you proved was your own misunderstanding.
The law is a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ so it is implied
Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
When we come to Christ we are no longer under it
Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Does this mean we walk in lawless iniquity? Of course not, it means that we now have the power, through Christ, to fulfill the spirit of the law. Do we commit adultery? No...we don't even look at another woman. Do we kill? No...we don't even get angry with our brother for no reason. We are held to a standard HIGHER that the law but is more easily fulfilled by taking up the yoke of Christ...his yoke is easy and his burden is light.
But this is Christians only section of the board. Why should I argue with all kinds of non-Christians about what is a Christian or what is the Christian teaching, here? This belongs to the apologetics section or to some "Ask a Christian" section.
According to the website, it is not a Christian church, it is a synagogue.
It is absurd to think that I am a non-Christian because I am follow Christ's example of obedience to what God has commanded.
It is an ekklesia.
You claim you are a Christian while you are unable/unwilling to even call your assembly a church on the official website...
You are a Messianic Jew and you attend a (Messianic) synagogue. There should be an option for the faith identification on our profiles for that. I would not call it completely "other religion", but "Christian" is misleading, at least.
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They attended synagogues throughout Acts, but that doesn't mean that they were not Christians or part of the Church. A Christian is by definition a follower of Christ and I am a follower of Christ.
"They" were still connected to the mainstream apostolic Church. You are separated from the apostolic Churches, you are doing your own thing. Are you not?
I am still connected with the apostolic Church. I think that it is incorrect to interpret the Apostles as speaking against obeying what He has commanded, but I am not doing my own thing.
By "you are doing your own thing" I meant the Messianic Jews. You separate yourself from the common Christian denominations. You do not cooperate, you do not work together with other Churches on anything, for example Bible translations, missions etc.
Jewish Christianity or Messianic Judaism?
The difference between Jewish Christianity and Messianic Judaism is simple: Jewish Christianity is Christianity that is Jewish. Messianic Judaism is Judaism that is Messianic.
To arrive at Jewish Christianity, you start with Christianity and add Jewish people and Jewish things. You add Jewish customs. You add Jewish songs. You add Jewish clothing and food.
To arrive at Messianic Judaism, you start with Judaism, and add Messianic things. You add the Messiah. You add the Messiah’s teaching. You add aspects of the future Messianic Kingdom, when Jesus will rule the earth. In the end, Messianic Judaism has some vaguely similar appearances to Jewish Christianity, but a radically different way of thinking.
What is a Messianic Jew?
All throughout history, there have been individuals of Jewish descent who have followed Jesus. Typically, this has meant leaving Judaism behind and embracing Christian theology and practice. Towards the end of the 1800s, a new idea emerged among Jewish Christians. They realized that Jesus...
Do you even know what you are a part of? It is not Christianity, it is Judaism, according to the website.
it is important to recognize that the Bible can speak against obeying what God has commanded for an incorrect reason without speaking against obeying what God has commanded, so the fact that the Law of Moses was never given as a way to earn our salvation even as the result of perfect obedience does not mean that we are not obligated to obey it.
There are many examples in the Bible of people who did keep the Law of Moses, such as with Paul (Philippians 3), Zechariah and Elizabeth (Luke 1:5-6), or with those in Joshua 22:1-3, Revelation 14:12, or Revelation 22:14, so the reason why we can't earn our salvation as the result of our obedience to the Law of Moses is not because we can't keep it but because it was never given as a way of earning our salvation in the first place.
Then by all means, please interact with what I said to explain why think that I have twisted it.
In Romans 7:25-8:2, Paul said that he served the Law of God with his mind in contrast with seeing the law of sin with his flesh and he said that the Law of the Spirit has freed us from the law of sin and death, so the law of sin and death is not the Law of God. The Law of Moses is was given by God (Deuteronomy 5:31-33) and is called the Law of God in verses like Nehemiah 8:1-8, Ezra 7:6-12, and Luke 2:22-23, so the law of sin and death is not the Law of Moses. Paul described the law of sin as being something that was causing him not to do the good of obeying the Law of God that he wanted to do.
Again Romans 8:4-7 contracts those who walk in the Spirit with those who have minds set on the flesh who refuse to submit to the Law of God, so walking in the flesh does not refer to walking in obedience to the Law of God. God has not commanded anything that is not in accordance with walking in the Spirit, but rather the fruits of the Spirit are the character traits of God and the Mosaic Law is God's instructions for how to embody His character traits, which is why the Spirit has the role of leading us to obey it (Ezekiel 36:262-27). Jesus saves us from not fulfilling the Law of Moses by graciously teaching us to fulfill it.
The Law of Moses does not just teach us about our need for a Savior but also teaches us the way that he is saving us. I've not said anything about not
I've done no such thing. In Romans 10:5-8, Paul referred to Deuteronomy 30 as the word of faith that we proclaim in regard to the righteousness that is by faith proclaiming that the Law of Moses is not too difficult for us to keep and that keeping it brings life and a blessing while not keeping it brings death and a curse.
In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and the Law of Moses was how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so I'm not mixing it with the Gospel, but rather repenting from our disobedience to it is a central part of the Gospel of the Kingdom/Grace, which Paul also taught based on the Mosaic Law (Acts 14:21-22., 20:24-25, 28:23). Christ also set a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to the Mosaic Law and as his followers we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22), that those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way that he walked (1 John 2:6), and to be imitators of Paul as he is of Christ (1 Corinthians 11:1). Paul's problem with the Judaizers was not that they were teaching Gentiles how to follow what he and Christ taught by word and by example but that they were wanting to require Gentiles to becoming circumcised in order to becoming justified/saved.
I showed how everything that Peter argued in Acts 15:6-11 was in agreement with the Pharisees from among the believers in Acts 15:5, so please interact with what I said rather than just insisting otherwise. Acts 15 should not be interpreted a ruling that followers of Christ shouldn't follow what he taught.
If you grant that it wasn't mean to be an exhaustive list, then you can no longer try to use it as an exhaustive list in order to limit which laws Gentiles should follow.
Do you have faith in God to guide you in how to rightly live through the Mosaic Law?
Nowhere does the Bible hold up the Mosaic Law as being a standard that no one can fulfill, but rather the word of faith that we proclaim is that is not too difficult for us to fulfill and there are countless people who have fulfilled it.
Then by all means please interact with the verses that I quoted to show how you think that I've misunderstood them.
The reason why the Law of Moses brings us to Christ is because it was given to teach us how to have an intimate relationship with him, but the reason why it leads us to him is not so that we can then reject everything that he taught and go back to being doers of what it reveals to be sin. If you think that we should not walk in lawless iniquity, then you should be arguing in favor obeying the Mosaic Law. In Deuteronomy 4:2, it is a sin to add to or subtract form the Mosaic Law, so even if Jesus could have raised the bar without sinning and disqualifying himself as our Savior, then at the very least we should still obey the Mosaic Law plus whatever else he raised the bar to. For example, the Mosaic Law instructs not to hate our brother (Leviticus 19:17), so even if Jesus had raised the bar to that, then at the very least we should still obey the command against committing murder.
Jesus set a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to the Mosaic Law, and in Matthew 11:28-30, Jesus was inviting people to come to him for rest and to learn from him, not inviting people to come to him for rest instead of learning from his example. Moreover, by Jesus saying that we would find rest for our souls he was referencing Jeremiah 6:16-19, where the Mosaic Law is described as the good way where we will find rest for our souls, but they did not want to walk in it.
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