The sons of God

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Zao is life

Well-Known Member
Oct 3, 2020
5,244
1,863
113
Africa
Faith
Christian
Country
South Africa
Gender
Male
It is not Christ preaching the gospel to spirits in prison.

Christ has never preached from hades to those who are physically alive - and the scripture says it was Christ preaching by the Spirit TO spirits who were imprisoned in hades when His soul went down to hades.

After the Spirit within Christ ascended to the Father after He physically died, being spiritually alive, Christ sent His Spirit to be within believers, through whom, believers, faithfully preach to spirits in prison, those who are physically alive but spiritually dead in trespasses and sins being bound by sin and death (in prison).

1. Nor does the scripture say or imply that His Spirit preached from heaven to those who were physically alive while Christ was in hades.

2. Since His BODILY ascension to heaven, and by His Spirit, Christ has always preached from heaven to those who are physically alive.

You are making things up, imo.

Anyway we are not going to agree on a few things so I'll stick with the biblical revelation. Thanks for the engaging in the discussion - but you have taken it too far off biblical facts and truth for me to want to continue.
 
Last edited:

Zao is life

Well-Known Member
Oct 3, 2020
5,244
1,863
113
Africa
Faith
Christian
Country
South Africa
Gender
Male
And some other verses. Just like all translations. Maybe you weren't aware, but the Bible wasn't originally written in English.

hlf :thumbsup:

For a few seconds there I read you saying, "Maybe you weren't aware, but the Bible was originally written in English."

It made me laugh until I read properly what you said.

Scripture says that everything God created was very good. Perhaps the following verse isn't in your Bible. This is from the KJV translation, so we don't need to waste time arguing about translations with this verse.

Genesis 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Maybe you don't understand what everything means or what very good means? I can't help you with that. Evil is not very good. Another thing that you apparently don't understand. As I showed rwb, the opposite of darkness is light. The opposite of peace is not evil. You'd have to be foolish to think that. No, the opposite of good is evil. The opposite of peace is calamity or disaster and that's why many translations translate the verse that way instead of how the KJV translates it. Understand, buddy?

:thumbsup:
 

Zao is life

Well-Known Member
Oct 3, 2020
5,244
1,863
113
Africa
Faith
Christian
Country
South Africa
Gender
Male
We have to remember he has a bias to maintain! Even if this bias makes him look foolish, he refuses to let it go!

It always amazes me in these threads how the guilty can accuse the innocent of doing what the guilty did.

His is not a bias regarding that verse. He's simply basing it on biblical fact - but yours is a bias.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Spiritual Israelite

Zao is life

Well-Known Member
Oct 3, 2020
5,244
1,863
113
Africa
Faith
Christian
Country
South Africa
Gender
Male
The term translated "the Sons of God" is, in the Hebrew, B'nai HaElohim, "Sons of Elohim," which is a term consistently used in the Old Testament for angels

You use the word "consistently" as though the term sons of God appears often in the Old Testament - which is not the case.
The term sons of God only appears in these verses in the Old Testament:

Genesis 6:2 & 4; Job 1:6; 2:1; and Job 38:7.

Let's compare scripture with scripture:

Where scripture calls the sons of Seth the sons of God:

Luke 3

38 (Cainian), Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

Where scripture talks about human sons of God appearing before the LORD:

Exodus 23

17 Three times in the year all thy males shall appear before the Lord.

The book of Job was written long before the above commandment was given, but there was worship offered to God before Noah's day by the sons of Seth, and following Noah's day by the sons of Shem.

Where the Revelation speaks about the brethren being accused by Satan:

Revelation 12

10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now has come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

We know that the accuser of the brethren came to accuse Job (the passage does not imply that he came to accuse "fallen angels").

Job 1

6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
7 And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence come you? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going back and forth in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Have you considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that fears God, and turns away from evil?
9 Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Does Job fear God for nothing?

Job 2

1 Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD.

Genesis 6
2 The sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man.

Where New Testament scripture talks about God's creation:

John 1:1-3

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Colossians 1
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Job 38

1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,

4 Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if you have understanding.

7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

There is only one morning star - and Jesus called Himself the morning star in the Revelation.

Based (as the statement in verse 7 is) on the question Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?", verse 7's reference to "all the sons of God" could just as easily be taken to mean God is using an oxymoron to rhetorically tell Job that neither Job, nor any of the sons of Seth / sons of God were present when God created the heavens and the earth.

IMO pushing "fallen angels" into what is being said in each Old Testament verse where the term appears, is to fail a reading comprehension test - because what is being said in each verse makes NO MENTION of spirit beings.

It's only people who have been taught that fallen angels is what it's referring to, who believe in what quite possibly is a lie

(there are many lies Christians believe today because of what - at some point - we have all been taught - but what we are taught is often nothing more or less than the false belief in, or faulty interpretations of teachers who do not study the scriptures properly, and do not give these things much thought before blindly just accepting it).
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: rwb

rwb

Well-Known Member
Nov 11, 2022
5,722
2,482
113
74
Branson
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
A: The term translated "the Sons of God" is, in the Hebrew, B'nai HaElohim, "Sons of Elohim," which is a term consistently used in the Old Testament for angels, and it is never used of believers in the Old Testament (Job 1:6; 2:1; 38:7) (where they are in existence before the creation of the earth). Jesus also implies the same term in Luke 20:36.

Spirits called angels of God are never called sons of God, because they are spirit and therefore are NOT humankind, they have not flesh and blood as the true Son of God does. The Son of God (Christ) is begotten of God through humankind, not angels, because God chose humankind to be His children not spirits. Because angels are NOT sons of God they shall NOT stand at the right hand of God as the Son of God shall with all the sons of God that are born again through Him from the human race, not spirits.

Hebrews 1:5 (KJV) For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

Hebrews 1:7 (KJV) And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

Hebrews 1:13-14 (KJV) But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool? Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

Matthew 25:32-33 (KJV)
And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

In understanding the sons of God throughout the Bible are humankind and not angels, we take away the inconsistency and contradiction caused by arguing the sons of God in the Old Testament are spirits (angels) of God. Because we eliminate the belief that angels of God though created good rebelled against God and became evil. Because Scripture tells us the angels of God are ministering spirits sent to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation.
 
Last edited:

rwb

Well-Known Member
Nov 11, 2022
5,722
2,482
113
74
Branson
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
"CDC admits the virus does not exist. Buried deep in its infamous document, "CDC 2019-Novel Coronavirus (2019-nCoV)", Revision #8, dated 2023, page 40, we read this: “Since no quantified virus isolates of the 2019-nCoV [SARS-CoV-2] were available..." IOW, THERE IS NO VIRUS. "Fact checkers" <link> admit CDC substituted "synthetically produced genetic material". Bottom line: No one in the world has a sample of any "coronavirus" - least of all CDC."

If this was said in response to me saying my daughter's leg was amputated because of a virus, please accept my apologies. I misspoke when calling her staph infection a virus. I know MRSA is not a virus and didn't mean to imply it was from the so-called covid virus. It was simply an emotional misspeak on my part. I, like you, also have much doubt about everything they call COVID!
 

rwb

Well-Known Member
Nov 11, 2022
5,722
2,482
113
74
Branson
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
It always amazes me in these threads how the guilty can accuse the innocent of doing what the guilty did.

His is not a bias regarding that verse. His simply basing it on biblical fact - but yours is a bias.

The bias I speak of him needing to maintain is believing that Satan was created a good angel of God who became evil Satan. Saying I have a bias is not proving what you allege. Unless you can demonstrate from the Word of God this bias you believe I have, it remains your opinion and nothing more.
 

rwb

Well-Known Member
Nov 11, 2022
5,722
2,482
113
74
Branson
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Christ has never preached from hades to those who are physically alive - and the scripture says it was Christ preaching by the Spirit TO spirits who were imprisoned in hades when His soul went down to hades.

Why would anyone preach anything to the physically dead?

1. Nor does the scripture say or imply that His Spirit preached from heaven to those who were physically alive while Christ was in hades.

2. Since His BODILY ascension to heaven, and by His Spirit, Christ has always preached from heaven to those who are physically alive.

You are making things up, imo.

Anyway we are not going to agree on a few things so I'll stick with the biblical revelation. Thanks for the engaging in the discussion - but you have taken it too far off biblical facts and truth for me to want to continue.

After ascending to heaven Christ sent His Spirit to be within believers. And it is through the Spirit in man that faithful saints preach the gospel to those who are in bondage (prison) to sin and death, that they might hear the gospel of the Kingdom of God preached and repent of their sins and turn to Christ for everlasting life. We are all in bondage (prison) spiritually before we have been born again.

There is no benefit in saying I make things up! Instead try asking for clarification if you don't understand what I mean. Because it's clear you have not rightly understood what I've said. For us to be in prison before we die is to be in spiritual bondage before dying and being bound in hell.
 

Davy

Well-Known Member
Feb 11, 2018
15,973
3,379
113
Southeastern U.S.
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Gender
Male
The view that fallen angels of God procreated with women of flesh & blood originates from the belief that Satan was an angel of God before becoming Satan. In fact, it is believed by a vast majority of Christian churches that Satan was created the highest-ranking angel of God before in pride he became the demon spirit called Satan. Scripture clears up this falsehood because we read in Hebrews how angels of God are spirits sent to minister to heirs of salvation. And we also read that from the beginning Satan is a liar and murderer.
....

The statements above are so wildly against the actual written Bible Scripture about Satan, that one would almost think the Wicked one's workers trained whoever came up with those above ideas.


1. In Ezekiel 28 God gives a parable about Lucifer (or Satan) using the "king of Tyrus" as a type. I use his name Lucifer for the time before he rebelled against God, which was when... he drew one third of the stars (angels) to earth with him per Revelation 12:3-4.

The KJV translators used that name "Lucifer" for the devil in Isaiah 14:12, which the name means 'morning star'. Some later English Bible translations actually put the meaning of that name, "morning star" in that Isaiah 14:12 verse, and all it did was confuse many believers, because Lord Jesus Christ declared that He is The Morning Star per Revelation 22:16. For that reason, the KJV translators put an alternate reading in their Bible margin of Isaiah 14:12 that read, 'O Day Starre', the actual meaning of the Hebrew word in the manuscripts. They used "Lucifer" instead in their KJV in English translation so as to make sure we understand just who GOD was talking about there in that Isaiah 14 Scripture...

Isa 14:12-17
12
How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13
For thou hast said in thine heart, 'I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.'

15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying,
'Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;
17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?'
KJV

Those above verses in green above is God speaking, but using Lucifer's own words of what Lucifer said he would do when he tried to overthrow God's Throne in the old world. Those phrases in purple in verses 16-17 is what Lucifer did in that old world when he attempted to overthrow God's Kingdom then, and place himself upon God's Throne. Per Ezekiel 28:14, God had made Lucifer an anointed cherub that covereth. That means a Heavenly cherub created specifically to guard God's Throne.

What Lucifer instead did, was to covet God's Throne for himself, wanting to be GOD. In Revelation 12:3-4, we are shown a previous 'beast' kingdom that had only "seven crowns", timed with when Lucifer drew one third of the "stars" (angels) to earth in rebellion with him. That is what those above verses in purple are about with the earth trembling and the shaking of kingdoms as a result of God ending that 'old world' and thus Lucifer's rebellion.

(See the end of Hebrews 12:25-29, because God has said that He is going to shake this earth "Yet once more", and also Heaven, pointing to the very end of this present world when He brings His "consuming fire" on the "day of the Lord" per 2 Peter 3:10 to burn man's works off this earth.)


2. In God's parable about Lucifer in Ezekiel 28 using the "king of Tyrus" as a type, God showed that He originally created Lucifer perfect in his ways. Below verses is God Himself speaking about Lucifer...

Ezek 28:13-15
13
Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
14
Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15
Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
KJV


Thus ideas that God originally created Lucifer evil is nothing but a false tradition from Biblically illiterate men, and goes directly against the above Bible Scripture of what God Himself said about how... He created Lucifer in the beginning. God says there that Lucifer had even been in His Garden of Eden. We know no flesh born "king of Tyrus" was ever in God's Garden of Eden, so it's easy to know God is only using that "king of Tyrus" as a type for Lucifer.

Why did our Heavenly Father put this within the Book of Ezekiel close to the middle section of Books in His Word? It seems to kind of hide this information from the profane about Lucifer's fall and rebellion against God in that old world doesn't it? Why isn't this info part of the Book of Genesis, since Lucifer's fall happened prior to God's creation of Adam? There exists no Bible Scripture showing that Lucifer's fall was at any time after God had created Adam. By the time of Adam, Lucifer as "that old serpent" was already in God's Garden of Eden as the tempter, showing he had already fallen. It is then when his name "Satan" began to apply for this present world time.


3. Satan -- per the Hebrew, means 'accuser, adversary' (OT:7853). That became Lucifer's role once this present 2nd world earth age began after God had destroyed that 1st world earth age when Lucifer rebelled. The Jeremiah 4:23-28 Scripture, where the phrase "without form, and void" appears again, but about a previous destruction God did upon this ancient earth by His fierce anger, was about the ending of that 1st world earth age when Lucifer first rebelled. This is difficult for many brethren to grasp, especially because of the many false traditions of men taught to most congregations about God's creation being only around 6,000 years old (NEC).

In Isaiah 30 and Ezekiel 31, God again uses the idea of flesh kings as types for Satan. In Isaiah 30:31-33 God uses the "the Assyrian", meaning the king of Assyria, as a 'type'... for Satan involving how Satan has already been assigned to perish in the future lake of fire, which God describes there as "Tophet". The area of Tophet was a place of burning garbage in the Valley of Hinnom, by the entry of the east gate at Jerusalem. It was a perpetual burning garbage pit outside the walls of Jerusalem. It is in The New Testament in some instances for "hell" from the Greek manuscripts. But it always is used to represent the final "lake of fire" event at the end of Revelation 20.

Because no flesh-born man has yet been sentenced to perdition at that future "lake of fire" event, any time God's Word refers to one who is already sentenced to perish in that fire, it is pointing only to Satan and his angels. They only, as of today still, are the only ones already judged and sentenced to perish in that future "lake of fire". Not even Judas Iscariot has been judged and sentenced yet, because Christ's Judgment Seat does not occur until AFTER... His future return. So even though we know there will be some that will perish in that lake of fire along with Satan and his angels, God's Word does not yet tell us who all in the flesh that will happen to. Lord Jesus was very careful in not directly saying things like, 'you are going to hell', like in a definite manner. He only warned about being in danger of hellfire. Reason is because during His 1st coming it was not yet time for His Judgment Seat when His sentencing of flesh-born people to the lake of fire will happen.
 
Last edited:

talons

Well-Known Member
Oct 18, 2024
1,519
2,355
113
Alabama
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The words "sons of God" in these verses are the exact same Hebrew words found throughout Scripture for sons and God. It is the same words found in Genesis chapter 6.
Yes . In the Old Testament "sons of God " are angels . I notice in all of your reply you missed Job38:7 because you know the sons of God in that verse are angels , you can not explain it away .

Where were you when God laid the foundations of the earth @TribulationSigns ?

Job 38:7 Context​


4Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. 5Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? 6Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; 7When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? 8Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb? 9When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddlingband for it, 10And brake up for it my decreed place, and set bars and doors,
 

talons

Well-Known Member
Oct 18, 2024
1,519
2,355
113
Alabama
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Sons of God = God's congregation = believers
In the Old Testament "sons of God " are angels .

Anyone reading along please go read these links .


 

Spiritual Israelite

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2022
16,902
6,856
113
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Gender
Male
It's becoming clear that you read replies from both TS and myself very selectively! Because neither one of us have argued against the belief of angels and Satan.
He absolutely has done that several times. You even quoted one of his posts where he said "Satan is not created being as most think. He is a spirit of man and he is among the congregation of God ON EARTH.".

He explicitly stated that Satan is not a created being. Instead of telling him he's wrong about that, you responded by asking him what he thinks of Isaiah 45:7. Unbelievable. How can you repeatedly miss all the times where he denies the existence of a spirit being named Satan and the existence of angels? He claims that Satan is "a spirit of man" and that angels are human messengers. He has stated these things many times at this point. How can you miss that every time?

The way you make it appear that we have is by taking bits of our replies out of context without considering the whole. Apparently, this is what you've done by arguing that I've changed my mind about things I agreed with you of after reading the replies from TS. I have agreed with him when he has proven to have greater understanding than you or I do/did have. I can be convinced through the Word of God, which TS always makes his arguments from. I am not so dogmatic in what I believe that I cannot be convinced of error when confronted through the Bible. You often don't argue against particular points of view from the Word of God, but from a biased personal point of view.
Total nonsense. Do you even believe what you're saying here? It's ridiculous. How about we just settle this right now as it concerns your views. Do you or do you not believe in the existence of spirit beings called angels who are separate beings from human beings? Do you or do you not believe in the existence of a spirit being named Satan who is a separate being from human beings and tries to deceive human beings? Do you or do you not believe in the existence of spirit beings called demons or devils who are separate beings from human beings and are capable of possessing human beings and trying to deceive human beings?
 

Spiritual Israelite

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2022
16,902
6,856
113
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Gender
Male
This is really rich! I've said before how evil begats evil, and we are ALL guilty of this trait. To argue TS is incredibly rude demonstrates that you have no trouble finding fault in others but seem unable to see any fault in yourself. While you're pointing your finger at how TS appears rude on many occasions toward not only you but other posters, you would do well to examine your own heart and go back and read the many times you have been one of the most uncharitable posters in these forums. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone!
LOL. You are ready and willing to excuse TS no matter what he does. Why do you put him on such a pedestal? You can't even recognize the many times that he has denied the existence of a spirit being named Satan, spirit beings called demons or devils, and spirit beings called angels. You ridiculously claim that I'm just misunderstanding him. No, I am not. You are just very biased towards him for some inexplicable reason.
 

Spiritual Israelite

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2022
16,902
6,856
113
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Gender
Male
hlf :thumbsup:

For a few seconds there I read you saying, "Maybe you weren't aware, but the Bible was originally written in English."

It made me laugh until I read properly what you said.
Well, I'm glad your accidental misreading of what I said gave you a good laugh. I'm laughing now at the idea of anyone actually believing that the Bible was originally written in English.
 

Spiritual Israelite

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2022
16,902
6,856
113
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Gender
Male
The bias I speak of him needing to maintain is believing that Satan was created a good angel of God who became evil Satan.
It's ironic that you speak of my supposed bias when your bias shines through with every post you make about this topic. Do you agree that Satan was created by God? If so, why do you not agree with Genesis 1:31 that says everything God created was very good? How am I being biased by agreeing with what Genesis 1:31 says?

Also, you claim that the anointed cherub who protected the holy mountain of God who was created perfect in all his ways and rebelled against God was a fallen man or represents fallen humanity. You have no evidence whatsoever to support that claim and it is based entirely on your doctrinal bias.
 
Last edited:

Zao is life

Well-Known Member
Oct 3, 2020
5,244
1,863
113
Africa
Faith
Christian
Country
South Africa
Gender
Male
In the Old Testament "sons of God " are angels .

Really? The term sons of God only appears in these verses in the Old Testament:

Genesis 6:2 & 4; Job 1:6; 2:1; and Job 38:7.

Let's compare scripture with scripture:

Where scripture calls the sons of Seth the sons of God:

Luke 3
38 .. which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

Where scripture talks about human sons of God appearing before the LORD:


Exodus 23
17 Three times in the year all thy males shall appear before the Lord.

The book of Job was written long before the above commandment was given, but there was worship offered to God before Noah's day by the sons of Seth, and following Noah's day by the sons of Shem.

Where the Revelation speaks about the brethren being accused by Satan:

Revelation 12
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now has come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

We know that the accuser of the brethren came to accuse Job (the passage does not imply that he came to accuse "fallen angels").

Job 1
6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
7 And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence come you? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going back and forth in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Have you considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that fears God, and turns away from evil?
9 Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Does Job fear God for nothing?

Job 2
1 Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD.

Genesis 6
2 The sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man.

Where New Testament scripture talks about God's creation:


John 1:1-3
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Colossians 1
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Job 38
1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,

4 Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if you have understanding.

7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Verse 7 is based on the question
Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?".

In that context, verse 7's reference to "all the sons of God" could just as easily be taken to be God using an oxymoron to rhetorically tell Job that neither Job, nor any of the sons of Seth / sons of God were present when God created the heavens and the earth

- and that's besides the fact that there is only one morning star (and Jesus called Himself the morning star in the Revelation).

IMO pushing "fallen angels" into what is being said in the case of each (of the few) Old Testament verses where the term appears, is to fail a reading comprehension test

- because what is being said in each verse makes NO MENTION of spirit messengers / beings.

It's only people who have been taught that fallen angels is what it's referring to, who believe in what quite possibly is a lie.

(There are many lies Christians believe today because of what - at some point - we have all been taught - but what we are taught is often nothing more or less than the false belief in, or faulty interpretations of teachers who do not study the scriptures properly, and do not give these things much thought before blindly just accepting it).

The books you quote are just more books based on a bias regarding what someone would like the 'evidence' contained in books to men - such as the Book of Enoch, and what some Old Testament Jews believed (and what is written in the Apocrypha) etc etc.

The book of Enoch starts off with Enoch stating he is about to utter a parable.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: rwb

Zao is life

Well-Known Member
Oct 3, 2020
5,244
1,863
113
Africa
Faith
Christian
Country
South Africa
Gender
Male
Well, I'm glad your accidental misreading of what I said gave you a good laugh. I'm laughing now at the idea of anyone actually believing that the Bible was originally written in English.

Apparently some prefer the notion that the Bible was written in English when the Hebrew or Greek contradicts what they say it means and they are using a faulty English translation to support what they say.
 

Zao is life

Well-Known Member
Oct 3, 2020
5,244
1,863
113
Africa
Faith
Christian
Country
South Africa
Gender
Male
Isa 14:12-17
12
How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13
For thou hast said in thine heart, 'I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.'

15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying,
'Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;
17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?'
KJV

Those above verses in green above is God speaking, but using Lucifer's own words of what Lucifer said he would do when he tried to overthrow God's Throne in the old world.

hlf The very same scripture says God is speaking to the king of Babylon who had exalted himself, and the prophet is using the same hyperbole and metaphor that he uses throughout his prophecies when referring to what God was saying to others - such as Israel or Judah.

In Isaiah 14:12-17 it's the actions of none other than the king of Babylon being referred to - the prophet names him and talks about HIS actions in the world.

It's also very funny how it's so noticeable that though you probably know that the word "Lucifer" appeared in the Latin translation of the Hebrew (and of the Greek Septuagint) because the word is an ancient Latin word referring to the morning star, in the language in which Isaiah wrote (Hebrew) it's referring to the morning star.

Christ referred to Himself as the morning star in the Revelation, and here in Isaiah we see the king of Babylon exalting himself to that Christ-like position. In neither case is it the actual morning star that is being referred to, but a metaphor for Divine or Christ-like status.

But "It's all about Satan", they say - even though in the very text where "Lucifer" is mentioned, the king of Babylon is the person who is being addressed, and HIS actions are being referred to hlf
 
  • Love
Reactions: rwb

Spiritual Israelite

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2022
16,902
6,856
113
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Apparently some prefer the notion that the Bible was written in English when the Hebrew or Greek contradicts what they say it means and they are using a faulty English translation to support what they say.
Yeah. I know some treat certain Bible translations like the KJV as if that is the original manuscript, which is just very strange.
 

Zao is life

Well-Known Member
Oct 3, 2020
5,244
1,863
113
Africa
Faith
Christian
Country
South Africa
Gender
Male
Yeah. I know some treat certain Bible translations like the KJV as if that is the original manuscript, which is just very strange.

It's evidence of the last at least 50-100 years of poorly-educated (through lack of personal Bible study) and ignorant (I know it will appear 'wrong' to say, but I'm going to) dim-witted people deciding they know and understand scripture and so they should be teachers.

Lots of churches even today completely ignore any reference to the king of Babylon in what they teach about Isaiah 14:4-23, for example.

Faith in God has become mixed with superstition to an alarming extent today - much more even than the last few decades of the 20th century, when it was increasing.

Though I can't speak about centuries prior to the 20th century because I wasn't there, to me it seems as though the 21st century is full of Christians walking around with ideas that are a complete mixture of superstitions and other false religious ideas, with sound, biblical truth.
 
Last edited: