The sons of God

[talons]

Really? The term sons of God only appears in these verses in the Old Testament:

Genesis 6:2 & 4; Job 1:6; 2:1; and Job 38:7.

Yes , That is what I keep telling , and all these verses "sons of God " means angels . The people in this time frame understood .

Let's compare scripture with scripture:

What you should say is this .
"Now let us make the LEAP of thousands of years to the New Testament and make the Old Testament conform to it . "

IMO pushing "fallen angels" into what is being said in the case of each (of the few) Old Testament verses where the term appears, is to fail a reading comprehension test

Opinion . No pushing needed but the scales need to fall off IMO .

because what is being said in each verse makes NO MENTION of spirit messengers / beings.

When the Book of Genesis was written the people that used the book they knew who the son's of God were , they understood

It's only people who have been taught that fallen angels is what it's referring to, who believe in what quite possibly is a lie.

Another Opinion I see .

 

[Zao is life]

What you should say is this .
"Now let us make the LEAP of thousands of years to the New Testament and make the Old Testament conform to it . "

That's you opinion only, because what you are in effect saying is this:

"The New Testament contradicts the Old Testament and does not ever reveal what remained veiled in the Old Testament."

Job 38
2 "Who is this who darkens counsel with words without knowledge?
3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.
4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the cornerstone thereof *

* Jesus is called "the cornerstone" in Isaiah 28:16; Ephesians 2:20; 1 Peter 2:6; and Mark 12:10.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Yes , That is what I keep telling , and all these verses "sons of God " means angels . The people in this time frame understood .

Oh, of course. Because clearly the “daughters of men” were fully aware they were having relationships with supernatural, invisible spirit-beings masquerading as men — and no one thought that was worth explaining in the text.

If the original audience supposedly “understood” that “sons of God” automatically meant angels, then show it from the context — not from later tradition. The passage itself never says “angels.” It says sons of God. That phrase is used elsewhere for God’s covenant people (e.g., Israel in the Old Testament), so pretending it can only mean angels is selective reading.

What you should say is this .
"Now let us make the LEAP of thousands of years to the New Testament and make the Old Testament conform to it . "

Ah yes — heaven forbid we actually compare Scripture with Scripture. What a radical concept.

Apparently letting the Bible define its own terms is now considered a “leap of thousands of years,” instead of basic hermeneutics. So we’re supposed to isolate passages, freeze them in time, and forbid the rest of God’s revelation from shedding light on them? Interesting method.

I’ll stick with letting Scripture interpret Scripture rather than outsourcing interpretation to tradition, assumptions, or someone’s old Sunday School notes. If God chose to give progressive revelation, connecting it isn’t a leap — it’s consistency.

Opinion . No pushing needed but the scales need to fall off IMO .

“Opinion”? That’s ironic — because you still haven’t actually demonstrated from the text that “sons of God” means angels. You’ve asserted it. That’s not the same thing as proving it.


If the claim is biblical, then show it biblically — from context, from usage, from definition — not from assumption. Simply repeating it doesn’t make it established.


And before insisting they are “angels,” it might help to define what messengers (the literal meaning of malak) are in the passage and whether the text itself even supports the idea of supernatural beings marrying women. The burden of proof is on the one making the claim.


So far, I’m still waiting for Scripture — not tradition — to do the talking.

When the Book of Genesis was written the people that used the book they knew who the son's of God were , they understood

So that’s the method now? We interpret Scripture based on what we assume ancient people understood — rather than what the text itself actually says?


That’s convenient. But it’s also speculation. None of us were standing there interviewing the original audience of Genesis. What we do have is the written Word — and that’s what we’re responsible to examine carefully.

If the meaning were so universally obvious, it wouldn’t require importing later traditions or leaning on “they just knew.” Scripture is meant to be read, compared, and understood from its own context — not reconstructed from guesses about ancient assumptions.

So instead of appealing to what people supposedly “understood,” why not demonstrate it from the text itself? Because that’s the only ground that actually holds.

You remained refuted.

 

[TribulationSigns]

In the Old Testament "sons of God " are angels .

Sigh... You still fail to show Scripture that God has defined sons of God as "angels" exactly. You haven't! So we go to Scripture for God's definition:

Job 38:7

• When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Who does the stars represent exactly?

Revelation 1:20

• The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

God's Word says stars represent the messengers (angels) of the churches, so the morning stars and the sons of God are all the chosen people (messengers) of God's congregation. Jesus Christ is the ultimate Morning Star and His Messengers are the Morning Stars IN CHRIST. They are those who were messengers (angels) in Christ from the beginning and who sang together and shouted for joy when God laid the cornerstone of the church.

Eph 1:4

• According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

We are the morning stars, the sons of God! Selah!

 

[talons]

We are the morning stars, the sons of God! Selah!

You tried , but no not hardly . I went to Sunday school in a Church of God where did you go ?

 

[talons]

That's you opinion only, because what you are in effect saying is this:

"The New Testament contradicts the Old Testament and does not ever reveal what remained veiled in the Old Testament."

Job 38
2 "Who is this who darkens counsel with words without knowledge?
3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.
4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the cornerstone thereof *

* Jesus is called "the cornerstone" in Isaiah 28:16; Ephesians 2:20; 1 Peter 2:6; and Mark 12:10.

Thousands of years of language change ! ! Idioms . Oh Yes I know about the interaction and linking OT to NT .

Pulpit Commentary
Verse 7. - When the morning stars sang together. The stars generally, or the actual stars visible on the morn of creation, are probably meant. They, as it were, sang a song of loud acclaim on witnessing the new marvel. Their priority to the earth is implied, since they witness its birth. Their song is, of course, that silent song of sympathy, whereof Shakespeare speaks when he says, "Each in its motion like an angel sings" ('Merchant of Venice,' act 5. sc. 1). And all the sons of God shouted for joy. "The sons of God" here must necessarily be the angels (see Job 1:6; Job 2:1), since there were no men as yet in existence. They too joined in the chorus of sympathy and admiration, perhaps lifting up their voices (Revelation 5:11, 12
https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Revelation-5-11/
), perhaps their hearts only, praising the Creator, who had done such marvellous things.

 

[TribulationSigns]

You tried , but no not hardly . I went to Sunday school in a Church of God where did you go ?

I rather to study God's Word, rather than doctrine of men in the church. :-)

 

[talons]

I rather to study God's Word, rather than doctrine of men in the church. :-)

Just curious brother . Any denominational background you would claim ?

 

[TribulationSigns]

Just curious brother . Any denominational background you would claim ?

I have no denominational background. Consider what Peter, Paul, and John preached — the pure Word of God. That is what I teach as well. I am not influenced by any church traditions or denominational teachings.

 

[talons]

I have no denominational background. Consider what Peter, Paul, and John preached — the pure Word of God. That is what I teach as well. I am not influenced by any church traditions or denominational teachings.

So what about the gifts of the Holy Spirit ? The empowerment through the Holy Spirit .

 

[TribulationSigns]

So what about the gifts of the Holy Spirit ? The empowerment through the Holy Spirit

What are you trying to do here? This Eschatology eschatology is focus on the subject angels and the sons of God, not on personal beliefs, church background, or the gifts of the Holy Spirit. I’m not interested in discussing that here. If you want to explore church denominations or the gifts of the Holy Spirit, I suggest starting a new post on a forum dedicated to Christian theology.

 

[talons]

not on personal beliefs,

Are speaking for some other person when you post ? Not your personal beliefs are they .

I ask questions so I can get an idea of where you are coming from .

 

[Davy]

The very same scripture says God is speaking to the king of Babylon who had exalted himself, and the prophet is using the same hyperbole and metaphor that he uses throughout his prophecies when referring to what God was saying to others - such as Israel or Judah.

In Isaiah 14:12-17 it's the actions of none other than the king of Babylon being referred to - the prophet names him and talks about HIS actions in the world.

It's also very funny how it's so noticeable that though you probably know that the word "Lucifer" appeared in the Latin translation of the Hebrew (and of the Greek Septuagint) because the word is an ancient Latin word referring to the morning star, in the language in which Isaiah wrote (Hebrew) it's referring to the morning star.

Christ referred to Himself as the morning star in the Revelation, and here in Isaiah we see the king of Babylon exalting himself to that Christ-like position. In neither case is it the actual morning star that is being referred to, but a metaphor for Divine or Christ-like status.

But "It's all about Satan", they say - even though in the very text where "Lucifer" is mentioned, the king of Babylon is the person who is being addressed, and HIS actions are being referred to

Nope. The KJV translators were correct when they put the devil's name "Lucifer" in that Isaiah 14:12 verse to MAKE SURE THE BELIEVER UNDERSTOOD GOD WAS SPEAKING ABOUT THE DEVIL, and not a literal flesh-born king.

Why then would YOU... try to hide that???

Evidently you don't believe that the devil's rebellion in coveting God's Throne for himself actually happened! That make the DOCTRINE OF MEN you follow VERY SUSPECT, and not aligned with GOD'S TRUTH IN HIS WORD.

 

[Zao is life]

Yes , That is what I keep telling , and all these verses "sons of God " means angels . The people in this time frame understood .

Thousands of years of language change ! ! Idioms . Oh Yes I know about the interaction and linking OT to NT .

Pulpit Commentary

Now that's what we all need - Pulpit Commentary - i.e another opinion based not on the Bible, but on someone's bias.

Here's a biblical commentary:

Thousands of years of the Bible never calling angels "the sons of God":-​

Psalm 91
11 For he shall give his angels [H04397 malak] charge over thee, to keep thee in all thy ways.

Psalm 78
49 He cast upon them the fierceness of his anger, wrath, and indignation, and trouble, by sending evil angels [H04397 malak] among them.

The word H04397 malak is found in all these Old Testament verses - always translated into English as "angel/s"

- in some verses the context shows clearly that they are referring to spirit messengers, and in others, to human messengers

- and not once are they called "the sons of God". Not even once:

Genesis 16:7
Genesis 16:9
Genesis 16:10
Genesis 16:11
Genesis 19:1
Genesis 19:15
Genesis 21:17
Genesis 22:11
Genesis 22:15
Genesis 24:7
Genesis 24:40
Genesis 28:12
Genesis 31:11
Genesis 32:1
Genesis 32:3
Genesis 32:6
Genesis 48:16
Exodus 3:2
Exodus 14:19
Exodus 23:20
Exodus 23:23
Exodus 32:34
Exodus 33:2
Numbers 20:14
Numbers 20:16
Numbers 21:21
Numbers 22:5
Numbers 22:22
Numbers 22:23
Numbers 22:24
Numbers 22:25
Numbers 22:26
Numbers 22:27
Numbers 22:31
Numbers 22:32
Numbers 22:34
Numbers 22:35
Numbers 24:12
Deuteronomy 2:26
Joshua 6:17
Joshua 6:25
Joshua 7:22
Judges 2:1
Judges 2:4
Judges 5:23
Judges 6:11
Judges 6:12
Judges 6:20
Judges 6:21
Judges 6:22
Judges 6:35
Judges 7:24
Judges 9:31
Judges 11:12
Judges 11:13
Judges 11:14
Judges 11:17
Judges 11:19
Judges 13:3
Judges 13:6
Judges 13:9
Judges 13:13
Judges 13:15
Judges 13:16
Judges 13:17
Judges 13:18
Judges 13:20
Judges 13:21
I Samuel 6:21
I Samuel 11:3
I Samuel 11:4
I Samuel 11:7
I Samuel 11:9
I Samuel 16:19
I Samuel 19:11
I Samuel 19:14
I Samuel 19:15
I Samuel 19:16
I Samuel 19:20
I Samuel 19:21
I Samuel 23:27
I Samuel 25:14
I Samuel 25:42
I Samuel 29:9
II Samuel 2:5
II Samuel 3:12
II Samuel 3:14
II Samuel 3:26
II Samuel 5:11
II Samuel 11:1
II Samuel 11:4
II Samuel 11:19
II Samuel 11:22
II Samuel 11:23
II Samuel 11:25
II Samuel 12:27
II Samuel 14:17
II Samuel 14:20
II Samuel 19:27
II Samuel 24:16
II Samuel 24:17
I Kings 13:18
I Kings 19:2
I Kings 19:5
I Kings 19:7
I Kings 20:2
I Kings 20:5
I Kings 20:9
I Kings 22:13
II Kings 1:2
II Kings 1:3
II Kings 1:5
II Kings 1:15
II Kings 1:16
II Kings 5:10
II Kings 6:32
II Kings 6:33
II Kings 7:15
II Kings 9:18
II Kings 10:8
II Kings 14:8
II Kings 16:7
II Kings 17:4
II Kings 19:9
II Kings 19:14
II Kings 19:23
II Kings 19:35
I Chronicles 14:1
I Chronicles 19:2
I Chronicles 19:16
I Chronicles 21:12
I Chronicles 21:15
I Chronicles 21:16
I Chronicles 21:18
I Chronicles 21:20
I Chronicles 21:27
I Chronicles 21:30
II Chronicles 18:12
II Chronicles 32:21
II Chronicles 35:21
II Chronicles 36:15
II Chronicles 36:16
Nehemiah 6:3
Job 1:14
Job 4:18
Job 33:23
Psalms 34:7
Psalms 35:5
Psalms 35:6
Psalms 78:49
Psalms 91:11
Psalms 103:20
Psalms 104:4
Psalms 148:2
Proverbs 13:17
Proverbs 16:14
Proverbs 17:11
Ecclesiastes 5:6
Isaiah 14:32
Isaiah 18:2
Isaiah 30:4
Isaiah 33:7
Isaiah 37:9
Isaiah 37:14
Isaiah 37:36
Isaiah 42:19
Isaiah 44:26
Isaiah 63:9
Jeremiah 27:3
Ezekiel 17:15
Ezekiel 23:16
Ezekiel 23:40
Ezekiel 30:9
Hosea 12:4
Nahum 2:13
Haggai 1:13
Zechariah 1:9
Zechariah 1:11
Zechariah 1:12
Zechariah 1:13
Zechariah 1:14
Zechariah 1:19
Zechariah 2:3
Zechariah 3:1
Zechariah 3:3
Zechariah 3:5
Zechariah 3:6
Zechariah 4:1
Zechariah 4:4
Zechariah 4:5
Zechariah 5:5
Zechariah 5:10
Zechariah 6:4
Zechariah 6:5
Zechariah 12:8
Malachi 2:7
Malachi 3:1

The term sons of God only appears in these verses in the Old Testament:

Genesis 6:2 & 4; Job 1:6; 2:1; and Job 38:7.

 

[Zao is life]

Pulpit Commentary
Verse 7. - When the morning stars sang together. The stars generally, or the actual stars visible on the morn of creation, are probably meant. They, as it were, sang a song of loud acclaim on witnessing the new marvel. Their priority to the earth is implied, since they witness its birth. Their song is, of course, that silent song of sympathy, whereof Shakespeare speaks when he says, "Each in its motion like an angel sings" ('Merchant of Venice,' act 5. sc. 1). And all the sons of God shouted for joy. "The sons of God" here must necessarily be the angels (see Job 1:6; Job 2:1), since there were no men as yet in existence. They too joined in the chorus of sympathy and admiration, perhaps lifting up their voices (Revelation 5:11, 12
REVELATION 5:11 KJV And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders:...
), perhaps their hearts only, praising the Creator, who had done such marvellous things.

Revelation 5:11 is talking about the 24 elders praising God with these words:

7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.
8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Above we have:

1. The four beasts.
2. The 24 elders - who had been introduced in chapter 4:4:

4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

The 24 elders are talking about humans - they are mentioned again in Rev 5:8-10, 11 & 14; Rev 7:11 &13; Rev 11:16; Rev 14:3; and Rev 19:4.

In Revelation 5 when they fall down and worship God, they are joined by angels, and by the four beasts:

Revelation 5
11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;
12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

We are even given a clue as to who the four beasts symbolize:

Verse 13: And every creature (created thing) which is

(i) in heaven; and
(ii) on the earth; and
(iii) under the earth; and
(iv) such as are in the sea,

and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

14 And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.

The main actors in all that are worshiping Christ in this vision are the 24 elders - who are humans.

So please explain how Revelation 5:11 tells us that the sons of God in Genesis 6 and in Job, are angels?

- because grabbing at other parts of scripture that have nothing to do with who the sons of God in Genesis 6 and Job represent

- as though scripture consists of nothing but straws to be grasped at -

only proved that you are grasping at straws trying to prove what you cannot prove, biblically

- and they're not even your own straws. They are the straws of an individual who wrote a commentary for the Pulpit Commentary.

 

[talons]

The term sons of God only appears in these verses in the Old Testament:

Genesis 6:2 & 4; Job 1:6; 2:1; and Job 38:7.

I have noticed that . Do you notice Giants are mentioned in Gen6:4 ?

Do you notice somehow all these Giants just happen to live in the promised land and the Israelites have to subdue them to take control of the land ? Satan knew where the promised land was and had his seed ready to cause problems .
Or do you even believe in Satan ? Had to ask that , this thread is strange .


Deuteronomy 2:20
"(That also was accounted a land of giants: giants dwelt therein in old time; and the Ammonites call them Zamzummims;"
Numbers 13:33
"And there we saw the giants, the sons of Anak, which come of the giants: and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight."
Deuteronomy 2:11
"Which also were accounted giants, as the Anakims; but the Moabites call them Emims."
Joshua 12:4
"And the coast of Og king of Bashan, which was of the remnant of the giants, that dwelt at Ashtaroth and at Edrei,"
Joshua 13:12
"All the kingdom of Og in Bashan, which reigned in Ashtaroth and in Edrei, who remained of the remnant of the giants: for these did Moses smite, and cast them out."
Deuteronomy 3:13
"And the rest of Gilead, and all Bashan, being the kingdom of Og, gave I unto the half tribe of Manasseh; all the region of Argob, with all Bashan, which was called the land of giants."
Joshua 17:15
"And Joshua answered them, If thou be a great people, then get thee up to the wood country, and cut down for thyself there in the land of the Perizzites and of the giants, if mount Ephraim be too narrow for thee."
Deuteronomy 3:11
"For only Og king of Bashan remained of the remnant of giants; behold, his bedstead was a bedstead of iron; is it not in Rabbath of the children of Ammon? nine cubits was the length thereof, and four cubits the breadth of it, after the cubit of a man."
Genesis 6:4
"There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown."
Joshua 18:16
"And the border came down to the end of the mountain that lieth before the valley of the son of Hinnom, and which is in the valley of the giants on the north, and descended to the valley of Hinnom, to the side of Jebusi on the south, and descended to Enrogel,"
Joshua 15:8
"And the border went up by the valley of the son of Hinnom unto the south side of the Jebusite; the same is Jerusalem: and the border went up to the top of the mountain that lieth before the valley of Hinnom westward, which is at the end of the valley of the giants northward:"

 

[rwb]

I have noticed that . Do you notice Giants are mentioned in Gen6:4 ?

Do you notice somehow all these Giants just happen to live in the promised land and the Israelites have to subdue them to take control of the land ? Satan knew where the promised land was and had his seed ready to cause problems .
Or do you even believe in Satan ? Had to ask that , this thread is strange .

Proving FROM the Word of God that Satan is not now, nor has he ever been a son of God, does not mean Satan does not exist!

 

[talons]

Proving FROM the Word of God that Satan is not now, nor has he ever been a son of God, does not mean Satan does not exist!

What is Satan , if you believe in the existence ? Where did the existence come from ?

 

[rwb]

How is there any logic in believing the name "Lucifer" which means to be a bearer of light as the morning star, is attributed to SATAN?

Satan, of whom we read that from the beginning he is a murderer and a liar! Yet some of you foolishly believe 'Lucifer' refers to Satan? That's even worse than foolishly believing Satan was a son of God, or a good angel before he fell!

John 8:44 (KJV) Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

 

[talons]

How is there any logic in believing the name "Lucifer" which means to be a bearer of light as the morning star, is attributed to SATAN?

"Lucifier" , yeah that is a mistake that became tradition , KJV problem .

That's even worse than foolishly believing Satan was a son of God, or a good angel before he fell!

This is why I asked you the two questions above this post .