The sons of God

[rwb]

What is Satan , if you believe in the existence ? Where did the existence come from ?

Satan is spirit of darkness and death. Called a liar and murderer from the beginning of creation. I believe the darkness that covered the face of the deep when God spoke His supernatural Light into the darkness is a metaphor for Satan in the same way that God is Himself the metaphor for Light!

The existence of the darkness/evil according to Isaiah was created by God.

Isaiah 45:7 (KJV) I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Now a good question for us to ask, is WHY? Why did God create darkness and evil?

I believe He created darkness because man would not have knowledge of good or evil, because the only way to know these emotions would be for man to experience them. It is through this experience that man would come to understand not only about evil and death, but also come to the full knowledge of the goodness of God.

That's why God only spoke into the darkness at creation instead of altogether abolishing the darkness.

 

[rwb]

"Lucifier" , yeah that is a mistake that became tradition , KJV problem .

This is why I asked you the two questions above this post .

I agree, the false doctrine of Satan as a fallen angel of God does come from tradition. Tradition that began to be the norm even before the KJV of the Bible. I believe that from wherever it originated, the early church embraced this doctrine, and it has been perpetuated throughout the churches more easily through the errors and biases of the Bible translators.

 

[Davy]

How is there any logic in believing the name "Lucifer" which means to be a bearer of light as the morning star, is attributed to SATAN?

Satan, of whom we read that from the beginning he is a murderer and a liar! Yet some of you foolishly believe 'Lucifer' refers to Satan? That's even worse than foolishly believing Satan was a son of God, or a good angel before he fell!

John 8:44 (KJV) Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Jesus said that in John 8 pointing mainly to Cain, who was a follower of the devil.

I don't know where you are getting your info from about why the KJV translators would use the name "Lucifer" for the devil in Isaiah 14:12, but that Scripture is... about the devil's original rebellion in coveting God's Throne when he fell as lightning from Heaven.

Mention there in Isaiah 14 of Pharaoh is for your... benefit, and for those who think like you instead of grasping how God is only using the idea of flesh kings to point to the devil. Even God's parable in Ezekiel 28 and in Ezekiel 31 say that the "king of Tyrus" and "the Assyrian" were in God's Garden of Eden, which we well KNOW... is not true about the flesh kings of Tyrus and Assyria. Thus God put those symbolic leaders to draw those like yourself away... from understanding His parable for those who are NOT GIVEN to understand those Scriptures. When you eventually come to believe... what GOD says in His Word, instead of men's doctrines, then He will open those Scriptures up to you. But not until you learn to listen to HIM in His Word.

 

[Zao is life]

I have noticed that . Do you notice Giants are mentioned in Gen6:4 ?

Do you notice somehow all these Giants just happen to live in the promised land and the Israelites have to subdue them to take control of the land ? Satan knew where the promised land was and had his seed ready to cause problems .
Or do you even believe in Satan ? Had to ask that , this thread is strange .


Deuteronomy 2:20
"(That also was accounted a land of giants: giants dwelt therein in old time; and the Ammonites call them Zamzummims;"
Numbers 13:33
"And there we saw the giants, the sons of Anak, which come of the giants: and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight."
Deuteronomy 2:11
"Which also were accounted giants, as the Anakims; but the Moabites call them Emims."
Joshua 12:4
"And the coast of Og king of Bashan, which was of the remnant of the giants, that dwelt at Ashtaroth and at Edrei,"
Joshua 13:12
"All the kingdom of Og in Bashan, which reigned in Ashtaroth and in Edrei, who remained of the remnant of the giants: for these did Moses smite, and cast them out."
Deuteronomy 3:13
"And the rest of Gilead, and all Bashan, being the kingdom of Og, gave I unto the half tribe of Manasseh; all the region of Argob, with all Bashan, which was called the land of giants."
Joshua 17:15
"And Joshua answered them, If thou be a great people, then get thee up to the wood country, and cut down for thyself there in the land of the Perizzites and of the giants, if mount Ephraim be too narrow for thee."
Deuteronomy 3:11
"For only Og king of Bashan remained of the remnant of giants; behold, his bedstead was a bedstead of iron; is it not in Rabbath of the children of Ammon? nine cubits was the length thereof, and four cubits the breadth of it, after the cubit of a man."
Genesis 6:4
"There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown."
Joshua 18:16
"And the border came down to the end of the mountain that lieth before the valley of the son of Hinnom, and which is in the valley of the giants on the north, and descended to the valley of Hinnom, to the side of Jebusi on the south, and descended to Enrogel,"
Joshua 15:8
"And the border went up by the valley of the son of Hinnom unto the south side of the Jebusite; the same is Jerusalem: and the border went up to the top of the mountain that lieth before the valley of Hinnom westward, which is at the end of the valley of the giants northward:"

Have you ever noticed that the giants were men, not angels?

the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown."

They were the offspring of men - the sons of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God.

You obviously change the meaning of scripture in your mind to mean what you want it to mean, but your arguments are proving more and more desperate.

 

[Zao is life]

Jesus said that in John 8 pointing mainly to Cain, who was a follower of the devil.

I don't know where you are getting your info from about why the KJV translators would use the name "Lucifer" for the devil in Isaiah 14:12, but that Scripture is... about the devil's original rebellion in coveting God's Throne when he fell as lightning from Heaven.

Mention there in Isaiah 14 of Pharaoh is for your... benefit, and for those who think like you instead of grasping how God is only using the idea of flesh kings to point to the devil. Even God's parable in Ezekiel 28 and in Ezekiel 31 say that the "king of Tyrus" and "the Assyrian" were in God's Garden of Eden, which we well KNOW... is not true about the flesh kings of Tyrus and Assyria. Thus God put those symbolic leaders to draw those like yourself away... from understanding His parable for those who are NOT GIVEN to understand those Scriptures. When you eventually come to believe... what GOD says in His Word, instead of men's doctrines, then He will open those Scriptures up to you. But not until you learn to listen to HIM in His Word.

Ignorance is bliss, and you show only how you are blissfully ignorant of biblical scripture and biblical history - because you find it blissful?

What you fail to understand - based on ignorance of biblical history and inability to understand the scriptures, is this:

God is not talking to Satan just because Satan is the spirit in the king of Tyre (or of Babylon or any other human king) - He is talking to the king of Tyre as though the spirit in him is Satan.

1. There was a land on earth called Telassar where "the children of Eden" lived - one of the lands that were conquered by the Assyrians - 2 Kings 19:12:

BIBLICAL HISTORY

2 Kings
"When the chief adviser heard the king of Assyria had departed from Lachish, he left and went to Libnah, where the king was campaigning. The king heard that King Tirhakah of Ethiopia was marching out to fight him. He again sent messengers to Hezekiah, ordering them:

"Tell King Hezekiah of Judah this: 'Don't let your God in whom you trust mislead you when he says, "Jerusalem will not be handed over to the king of Assyria." Certainly you have heard how the kings of Assyria have annihilated all lands. Do you really think you will be rescued?

Were the nations whom my ancestors destroyed - the nations of Gozan, Haran, Rezeph, and the people of Eden in Telassar - rescued by their gods?

Where are the king of Hamath, the king of Arpad, and the king of Lair, Sepharvaim, Hena, and Ivvah?'" -- 2 Kings 19:8-13.

The above history also appears in the prophecy of Isaiah:

"Tell King Hezekiah of Judah this: 'Don't let your God in whom you trust mislead you when he says, "Jerusalem will not be handed over to the king of Assyria." Certainly you have heard how the kings of Assyria have annihilated all lands. Do you really think you will be rescued?

Were the nations whom my predecessors destroyed - the nations of Gozan, Haran, Rezeph, and the people of Eden in Telassar - rescued by their gods? Where are the king of Hamath, the king of Arpad, and the kings of Lair, Sepharvaim, Hena, and Ivvah?'" -- Isaiah 37:10-13

One of the Assyrian kings, Shalmaneser III, also conquered Tyre, forcing the (then) king of Tyre, Baal-Eser II (846–841 BC) (the nephew of the biblical Jezebel) to pay tribute to him.

A prophecy also appears in the book of Ezekiel, where God is also addressing the king of Tyre - a man - who had exalted himself because of his wealth and splendor, which he had gained through his own wisdom in trade.

Using the same metaphor the prophets always used, In Ezekiel we read God telling Ezekiel to say to the king of Tyre:

"Son of man, say to the prince of Tyre, 'This is what the sovereign LORD says:"'Your heart is proud and you said, "I am a god; I sit in the seat of gods, in the heart of the seas" - yet you are a man and not a god, though you think you are godlike.

Look, you are wiser than Daniel; no secret is hidden from you. By your wisdom and understanding you have gained wealth for yourself; you have amassed gold and silver in your treasuries. By your great skill in trade you have increased your wealth, and your heart is proud because of your wealth.

"'Therefore this is what the sovereign LORD says: Because you think you are godlike, I am about to bring foreigners against you, the most terrifying of nations. They will draw their swords against the grandeur made by your wisdom, and they will defile your splendor. They will bring you down to the pit, and you will die violently in the heart of the seas.

Will you still say, "I am a god," before the one who kills you - though you are a man and not a god - when you are in the power of those who wound you?

You will die the death of the uncircumcised by the hand of foreigners; for I have spoken, declares the sovereign LORD.'" (Ezekiel 28:2-10 [NETfree])

Then, still talking to the king of Tyre (a man), God continues by mocking the king of Tyre's self-exaltation - by talking to the king of Tyre as though the king was the heavenly being that the king, in his self-exaltation, thought he was:

"Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty. Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God;

every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more." (Ezekiel 28:11-19, KJV).

Ezekiel actually prophesied about the above after the events had already taken place. OR he was prophesying to a different king of Tyre (Ithobaal III 591/0–573/2 BC) - one who was in power when Tyre was besieged by Baylon. OR he was quite possibly using it as a prophecy against the king of Babylon.

Whatever the case may be,

God is not talking to Satan just because Satan is the spirit in the king of Tyre (or of Babylon or any other human king who had exalted himself) - He is talking to the king of Tyre as though the spirit in him is Satan.

 

[Zao is life]

Proving FROM the Word of God that Satan is not now, nor has he ever been a son of God, does not mean Satan does not exist!

Yep. @talons has gotten so confused he's begun to think the subject is about whether or not Satan and fallen angels exist

- instead of whether or not the term sons of God ever refers to fallen angels.

 

[Zao is life]

I believe He created darkness because man would not have knowledge of good or evil, because the only way to know these emotions would be for man to experience them. It is through this experience that man would come to understand not only about evil and death, but also come to the full knowledge of the goodness of God.

That's why God only spoke into the darkness at creation instead of altogether abolishing the darkness.

That's not true, as @Spiritual Israelite has pointed out to you - the original language says God is capable of creating calamity just as He creates peace.

The same word appears in Psalm 78:49:

"He cast upon them the fierceness of his anger, wrath, and indignation, and trouble, by sending evil [H07451 ra'rah] angels"
(i.e messengers of calamity, adversity - anything considered "evil" by humans)

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil [H07451 ra'rah]: I the LORD do all these things." (Isaiah 45:7).

I don't agree with you if you are saying that Satan tempts Satan (the rebellious spirit in man), or that mankind was tempted of "his own rebellious spirit", in the Garden of Eden and ever since - if that's what you mean?

Nor do I believe that Satan accuses Satan before God (or that an evil human spirit of collective humans accuses humans before God), as in Revelation 12, and in Job.

The key lies in what Satan said to the last Adam about worshiping Satan and receiving all the kingdoms of the world as a reward (Matthew 4:8-10), when the last Adam was tested in the wilderness

- The Son of man was promised all nations as His inheritance by God (Psalm 2:8).

Man cannot receive all the kingdoms of the world from himself if he worships himself.

 

[rwb]

That's not true, as @Spiritual Israelite has pointed out to you - the original language says God is capable of creating calamity just as He creates peace.

The same word appears in Psalm 78:49:

"He cast upon them the fierceness of his anger, wrath, and indignation, and trouble, by sending evil [H07451 ra'rah] angels"
(i.e messengers of calamity, adversity - anything considered "evil" by humans)

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil [H07451 ra'rah]: I the LORD do all these things." (Isaiah 45:7).

I don't agree with you if you are saying that Satan tempts Satan (the rebellious spirit in man), or that mankind was tempted of "his own rebellious spirit", in the Garden of Eden and ever since - if that's what you mean?

Nor do I believe that Satan accuses Satan before God (or that an evil human spirit of collective humans accuses humans before God), as in Revelation 12, and in Job.

The key lies in what Satan said to the last Adam about worshiping Satan and receiving all the kingdoms of the world as a reward (Matthew 4:8-10), when the last Adam was tested in the wilderness

- The Son of man was promised all nations as His inheritance by God (Psalm 2:8).

Man cannot receive all the kingdoms of the world from himself if he worships himself.

I'm left scratching my head, wondering what in the world you are talking about?

 

[Zao is life]

I'm left scratching my head, wondering what in the world you are talking about?

I don't know what you believe regarding who / what Satan is, and based on your convo with @Spiritual Israelite I assumed you believe what @TribulationSigns believes about who / what Satan is - whatever that is (because it doesn't make much sense whatever it is that TS believes regarding who / what Satan is).

TS seems to believe it wasn't an entity separate to man that tested Adam in the Garden of Eden or the Son of man, the last Adam, in the wilderness (I don't know exactly what his belief is about it, but it's not main-stream Christian).

Wasn't it yourself and Spiritual Israelite who were engaged in a debate about whether or not God created or creates evil?

 

[TribulationSigns]

TS seems to believe it wasn't an entity separate to man

That is correct!

that tested Adam in the Garden of Eden

Wrong. It was with Eve.

in the wilderness

Wilderness?

(I don't know exactly what his belief is about it, but it's not main-stream Christian).

Of course. I do not follow traditional teaching of the Church regarding Satan, etc. I used to, but not anymore based on God's Word.

Wasn't it yourself and Spiritual Israelite who were engaged in a debate about whether or not God created or creates evil?

I have clearly explained how God created evil earlier.

First, God created everything that was good, right? But He didn't create murders, He didn't create rape, He didn't create drunkenness. He didn't create hatred. He didn't create harlotry. He didn't create homosexuality. He didn't create adultery or pride. God didn't create thieves, immorality and cruelty -- therefore He didn't create everything. By blaming all his misfortunes and sins and shortcomings on others, including God, his friends and the all powerful super villain, Satan.

Someone once said, "We have met the enemy and he is us."

Genesis 1:31

• "And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day."

Everything was good until WE created the enemy, the adversary spirit, which is US. It was man HIMSELF (James 1:15) "who lusted after the fruit of the tree, and when that lust conceived, it brought forth sin (disobedience to God's law not to eat of it), when it man sinned it brought forth death" (James 1:15). It's not rocket science, it's the narrative God has inspired showing us our responsibility for our sins, not His responsible because "He created an evil spirit being". We polluted that which was good, we corrupted and spoiled what God had created perfect. All the wickedness in the world the spirit of man created, not God. It's God's Spirit that saves us from our own. Nor did some SI's fantasy super-powered fallen angel give sin to man, man conceived thee unlawful desires of himself. So there is no need for us to attempt to find some super fallen angel to blame for our wandering eye and willful desires. Look within yourself and you will see that wickedness lies just beneath the surface in the flesh, and but for the Spirit and grace of God, we Christians would also me fallen stars of heaven.

If God says He creates evil, does that mean God creates sin? That is a BIG question that will be explained in this article.

@rwb

 

[talons]

Satan is spirit of darkness and death.

Satan is a spirit and also a dragon in appearance if he so chooses , look at the art work all around the world with dragons , the native Americans saw a feathered serpent , this is not a coincidence .

Revelation 12:9
"And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

That is correct!

@rwb This is TS's response to someone asking him if Satan is an entity separate from man. Do you agree with him about that or do you believe that Satan is a spirit being who God created, is a separate being from human beings and tries to tempt and deceive human beings?

I have clearly explained how God created evil earlier.

First, God created everything that was good, right? But He didn't create murders, He didn't create rape, He didn't create drunkenness. He didn't create hatred. He didn't create harlotry. He didn't create homosexuality. He didn't create adultery or pride. God didn't create thieves, immorality and cruelty -- therefore He didn't create everything. By blaming all his misfortunes and sins and shortcomings on others, including God, his friends and the all powerful super villain, Satan.

Your buddy @rwb believes that God created Satan as an evil spirit being and he believes the spirit being named Satan was a murderer from the beginning of his life (based on his understanding of John 8:44). And you obviously disagree with that. Yet, you two act like you agree about everything. Are you afraid to tell each other that you disagree about something?

Someone once said, "We have met the enemy and he is us."

Genesis 1:31

• "And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day."

Everything was good until WE created the enemy, the adversary spirit, which is US.

So, you think Adam and Eve were talking to themselves in the garden of Eden?

It was man HIMSELF (James 1:15) "who lusted after the fruit of the tree, and when that lust conceived, it brought forth sin (disobedience to God's law not to eat of it), when it man sinned it brought forth death" (James 1:15).

That verse says nothing about Adam's sin. Why are you acting as if it does? Satan knows how to appeal to our desires. We can't say that the devil made us do it, but you have to be foolish to not acknowledge that we have a spiritual enemy who tries to use our weaknesses against us.

Ephesians 6:11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. 12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

You think this is talking about the wiles of ourselves? That can't be the case because Paul made it clear that "we wrestle not against flesh and blood". That means our spiritual battle is not against flesh and blood human beings, but instead against spiritual "principalities,...powers" and "against the rulers of the darkness of this world - against spiritual wickedness in high places". Paul is clearly talking about us having spiritual enemies that we have to fight against besides ourselves and other human beings. But, you can't even discern this.

 

[doctrox]

I have no denominational background. Consider what Peter, Paul, and John preached — the pure Word of God. That is what I teach as well. I am not influenced by any church traditions or denominational teachings.

That's a lie on its face, as your posts evince.

Paul is clearly talking about us having spiritual enemies that we have to fight against besides ourselves and other human beings. But, you can't even discern this.

Spot on. Time to move on.

We are the morning stars, the sons of God! Selah!

God help us.

I rather to study God's Word, rather than doctrine of men in the church. :-)

and

If God says He creates evil, does that mean God creates sin? That is a BIG question that will be explained in this article.

It has become apparent that much of your blended screed has come from that 'recommended' website, Copyright ©1992 Tony Warren, and its forum, Center for Biblical Theology and Eschatology.

Merely one example of Warren's blindness will suffice:

"Let us pray that no one will seek to exalt themselves through any vain imagination that their personal dreams or visions are divinely inspired revelatory messages or a revelatory call from God. Rather dreams are our own nightly flights of fancy, subconscious processings, nightmares, urges, musings, introspections, or counseling."

And you obviously disagree with that. Yet, you two act like you agree about everything. Are you afraid to tell each other that you disagree about something?

and

You think this is talking about the wiles of ourselves? That can't be the case because Paul made it clear...

Yep, too much flesh and too little Spirit.

Do not be deceived; TS likes nothing better than to hear the sound of his own voice. I shall leave him to it.

 

[rwb]

I don't know what you believe regarding who / what Satan is, and based on your convo with @Spiritual Israelite I assumed you believe what @TribulationSigns believes about who / what Satan is - whatever that is (because it doesn't make much sense whatever it is that TS believes regarding who / what Satan is).

TS seems to believe it wasn't an entity separate to man that tested Adam in the Garden of Eden or the Son of man, the last Adam, in the wilderness (I don't know exactly what his belief is about it, but it's not main-stream Christian).

Wasn't it yourself and Spiritual Israelite who were engaged in a debate about whether or not God created or creates evil?

Please don't attempt to understand what I believe based on what SI has to say, his replies are deceitful at worse and at least confused. I agree with much of what TS believes about who/what Satan is because I agree that since the fall of mankind in the garden, Satan is the spirit within fallen mankind. Just as the Holy Spirit is within the believers.

A&E were not created with Satan within them. Being created in the likeness and image of God they were made alive through the Spirit of God in them. But once they disobeyed God, they became the spirit of Satan. Because there is no unity between the spirit of darkness, and the Spirit of light. At the moment A&E sinned against God, the Spirit of God departed from them, and from that moment, they and the whole human race became the same nature that is the spirit of Satan. We find an example of this truth when the Spirit of the Lord departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the Lord troubled him.

Genesis 2:7 (KJV) And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, [flesh] and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; [Spirit] and man became a living soul. [complete human with body + Spirit of God = living souls]

1 Samuel 16:14-15 (KJV) But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him. And Saul's servants said unto him, Behold now, an evil spirit from God troubleth thee.

This is why I asked about the reason for God creating darkness and evil. Remember A&E were created without knowing good or evil. Since they had no knowledge of evil when they were created, I don't believe the act of sinning by man came from within, but that it came from deception without by the spirit that came from the darkness. Darkness that was not natural because it was in the beginning before God created natural light of the sun, moon, and stars on day four.

Since God tells us He did create darkness as well as light, and everything that God created in heaven and the earth were created in six days, God did create darkness before the foundation of the world.

Isaiah 45:7 (KJV) I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Colossians 1:16-17 (KJV) For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Exodus 20:11 (KJV) For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Why did God create darkness before He created the heaven and the earth and everything in them?

I believe God created the darkness, which is a metaphor for evil that would be part of creation that mankind may come to understand both evil that leads to death, and the goodness of God that leads to eternal life they were created without any knowledge of.

This understanding is far closer to the doctrine of TS because he is not chained to a doctrine that cannot have God being the creator of evil or the doctrine of Satan being created an angel of God who became Satan through sin. I would rather be aligned with one who believes that sinfulness is the product of fallen man's heart, because it truly is since the fall, then to agree with someone locked in mythology, who cannot accept the plain language of the Bible telling us God created darkness and evil, that as you've pointed out may have originated from the book of Enoch.

 

[TribulationSigns]

@rwb This is TS's response to someone asking him if Satan is an entity separate from man. Do you agree with him about that or do you believe that Satan is a spirit being who God created, is a separate being from human beings and tries to tempt and deceive human beings?

You are as spiritual blind as ever as you cleared have been brainwashed by Sunday School with the doctrine of celestial beings.

Again, God did NOT create a celestial being, called Lucifer/Satan to be in man. Satan is NOT a created being. He is a spirit which is the spirit of man. All men! For example:

Mat 16:21-23

• From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.
• Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.
• But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

Did Satan, as a being, got into Peter and speak through Peter's mouth? Did Christ talk directly to Satan as separate entity inside Peter? No. Christ called Peter Satan becasue he (Peter) had an adversarial spirit opposed to the Will of God, not becasue he was a fallen angel or being "demon possessed." Selah! We know God does nothing without a reason. He called Peter Satan PURPOSEFULLY for our learning. In THIS spirit, Peter was Satan and an offense because he wanted his will rather than Christ's.

And the Devil is the accuser, agree? And it is MEN with an EVIL SPIRIT that accused and disputed with Christ. MEN with the spirit of antichrist who rejected both their Messiah and His Kingdom. Search Scripture yourself to find out who is Accuser, Devil, Antichrist, Adversary, Serpent, was:
Matthew 27:12

• "And when he was accused of the chief priests and elders, he answered nothing."

Mark 15:3

• "And the chief priests accused him of many things: but he answered nothing."

Luke 11:53-54

• "And as he said these things unto them, the scribes and the Pharisees began to urge him vehemently, and to provoke him to speak of many things:
• Laying wait for him, and seeking to catch something out of his mouth, that they might accuse him."

Luke 23:2

• "And they began to accuse him, saying, We found this fellow perverting the nation, and forbidding to give tribute to Caesar, saying that he himself is Christ a King."

Luke 23:10

• "And the chief priests and scribes stood and vehemently accused him."

Matthew 23:33

• "Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?"

See? According to the Word of God, these men of Israel who were antichrist fit the criteria of being a serpent, adversary, and accuser. The fact that they are "fallen messengers" only reinforce God's Word of their removal from the Kingdom which occurred at the Cross. This is how they no longer found a place in the congregation which is the Kingdom of Heaven, Revelation 12:7-9. In other words, they were no longer representing God's Kingdom. Selah!

Therefore...

Psalms 92:5

• "O LORD, how great are thy works! and thy thoughts are very deep."

The Lord's thoughts are very deep, very profound, so the deep end is where one would find and consider them. God's Word calls them "dark sayings," meaning things that aren't readily visible or understandable, as riddles, enigmas or mysteries. Just because one like you doesn't understand something, doesn't mean that it's not true. Don't be so quick to contend, accuse or judge, as that was the sin of the Judaizers.

 

[rwb]

That is correct!



Wrong. It was with Eve.



Wilderness?



Of course. I do not follow traditional teaching of the Church regarding Satan, etc. I used to, but not anymore based on God's Word.



I have clearly explained how God created evil earlier.

First, God created everything that was good, right? But He didn't create murders, He didn't create rape, He didn't create drunkenness. He didn't create hatred. He didn't create harlotry. He didn't create homosexuality. He didn't create adultery or pride. God didn't create thieves, immorality and cruelty -- therefore He didn't create everything. By blaming all his misfortunes and sins and shortcomings on others, including God, his friends and the all powerful super villain, Satan.

Someone once said, "We have met the enemy and he is us."

Genesis 1:31

• "And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day."

Everything was good until WE created the enemy, the adversary spirit, which is US. It was man HIMSELF (James 1:15) "who lusted after the fruit of the tree, and when that lust conceived, it brought forth sin (disobedience to God's law not to eat of it), when it man sinned it brought forth death" (James 1:15). It's not rocket science, it's the narrative God has inspired showing us our responsibility for our sins, not His responsible because "He created an evil spirit being". We polluted that which was good, we corrupted and spoiled what God had created perfect. All the wickedness in the world the spirit of man created, not God. It's God's Spirit that saves us from our own. Nor did some SI's fantasy super-powered fallen angel give sin to man, man conceived thee unlawful desires of himself. So there is no need for us to attempt to find some super fallen angel to blame for our wandering eye and willful desires. Look within yourself and you will see that wickedness lies just beneath the surface in the flesh, and but for the Spirit and grace of God, we Christians would also me fallen stars of heaven.

If God says He creates evil, does that mean God creates sin? That is a BIG question that will be explained in this article.

@rwb

It's because both darkness and evil are used by God to bring about good for mankind who believes in Christ. So even darkness and evil are part of the "very good" creation of God.

 

[rwb]

Satan is a spirit and also a dragon in appearance if he so chooses , look at the art work all around the world with dragons , the native Americans saw a feathered serpent , this is not a coincidence .

Revelation 12:9
"And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."

A literal appearance, or through a symbolic vision given John?

 

[TribulationSigns]

So, you think Adam and Eve were talking to themselves in the garden of Eden?

Oh, I see — so the only two options in your mind are either a Cheshire snake hanging from a branch having a theology debate, or Adam and Eve standing there moving their lips like ventriloquists?

Say have you ever argued with yourself in your own head? Ever felt temptation rise before you acted on it — stealing something, lusting, doing what you know is wrong? There wasn’t a reptile whispering in your ear. The battle happened internally. That was your own spirit talking.

That’s the point.

Eve didn’t need a talking zoo exhibit. The temptation began as an internal persuasion — a reasoning process. The text says she saw, she desired, she considered. That’s inward dialogue. That’s how temptation works. It starts in the mind before it manifests in action. That was when the iniquity was found IN her! Not from outside force.

The “serpent” represents the adversarial voice — the spirit of disobedience — not a chestnut-colored pet snake giving a advice from a tree branch. Sin was not something God created inside her; it was a choice formed through entertained desire.

If we’re going to discuss Genesis, let’s move past Sunday school coloring sheet and deal with how temptation actually operates in human nature shall we?

 

[rwb]

That's not true, as @Spiritual Israelite has pointed out to you - the original language says God is capable of creating calamity just as He creates peace.

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil [H07451 ra'rah]: I the LORD do all these things." (Isaiah 45:7).

I gave no commentary regarding evil that God takes credit for creating. Because it is the darkness that is questionable for SI.
SI has no answer for how God creates darkness, which is why he wants to focus on evil. SI believes the darkness and light at the beginning is not the supernatural light and darkness created by God. SI wants us to believe this is natural darkness and light that God would not create until day four.

 

[rwb]

Oh, I see — so the only two options in your mind are either a Cheshire snake hanging from a branch having a theology debate, or Adam and Eve standing there moving their lips like ventriloquists?

Say have you ever argued with yourself in your own head? Ever felt temptation rise before you acted on it — stealing something, lusting, doing what you know is wrong? There wasn’t a reptile whispering in your ear. The battle happened internally. That was your own spirit talking.

That’s the point.

Eve didn’t need a talking zoo exhibit. The temptation began as an internal persuasion — a reasoning process. The text says she saw, she desired, she considered. That’s inward dialogue. That’s how temptation works. It starts in the mind before it manifests in action. That was when the iniquity was found IN her! Not from outside force.

The “serpent” represents the adversarial voice — the spirit of disobedience — not a chestnut-colored pet snake giving a advice from a tree branch. Sin was not something God created inside her; it was a choice formed through entertained desire.

If we’re going to discuss Genesis, let’s move past Sunday school coloring sheet and deal with how temptation actually operates in human nature shall we?

Since the fall fallen mankind doesn't need an evil spirit whispering in their ears. Because the evil within fallen man comes from within their own hearts and minds, that from the fall became the same spirit of evil called Satan. I believe it was only A&E, the only two natural people upon this earth created innocent, without knowledge of good or evil that were deceived from without (hath God really said) by the spirit (serpent) that came from the darkness created by God.