Can One Be Christian and Not Believe In The Trinity?

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talons

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Hi.
I'm glad that you posted this, but I have to ask....
Do you really believe that the mainstream religions of Christendom have 'kept Jesus' commandments'?
What about Jesus' command to "love one another"? John 13:34,35; John 15:17
For the most part, Christendom has joined the world and fought in its wars, brother killing brother, loving nationalism more than their spiritual brother.
I do have a verse for you but I would think the OP would want you to start a new thread as this is not what the thread is about . Tag me when and if you start a new thread . I will not reply again to you on this thread about the subject you started .

Phil2
12Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
 
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TrevorHL

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Greetings again HealthyShape,
Orthodoxy is judged by the ecumenical creeds, not by adult baptism.
I used Adult Baptism as an example of how individual groups end up with different doctrines and this example as an indication of how the mainstream Catholic and Protestant Churches rejected them and persecuted them. We live in an age of more tolerance, mainly because these mainline Churches lost their power to persecute after the French Revolution and other developments. I claim that Orthodoxy is the Apostate Church and many of its teachings are erroneous. Adult Baptism is only one of the doctrines where the Apostolic teaching is restored, and I have hinted at another which is the subject of this thread.
I have no idea what your "fellowship" is, I think you did not tell.
We seek to pattern our beliefs and practices on the Apostolic example, not by following Church tradition.

Kind regards
Trevor
 

HealthyShape

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Greetings again HealthyShape,

I used Adult Baptism as an example of how individual groups end up with different doctrines and this example as an indication of how the mainstream Catholic and Protestant Churches rejected them and persecuted them. We live in an age of more tolerance, mainly because these mainline Churches lost their power to persecute after the French Revolution and other developments. I claim that Orthodoxy is the Apostate Church and many of its teachings are erroneous. Adult Baptism is only one of the doctrines where the Apostolic teaching is restored, and I have hinted at another which is the subject of this thread.

We seek to pattern our beliefs and practices on the Apostolic example, not by following Church tradition.

Kind regards
Trevor
The orthodoxy is not defined by adult baptism or by a nice history. It is defined by the New Testament, by the teaching of the first apostolic church and by the ecumenical creeds.

If your group which you still did not name properly lived in the middle ages and was involved in shaping the governance of kingdoms, I am pretty sure it would not be as peaceful and nice and democratic as you imagine. The society had to evolve to today's ethical norms and it took time.
 

TrevorHL

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Greetings again HealthyShape,
The orthodoxy ........ is defined by the New Testament, by the teaching of the first apostolic church and by the ecumenical creeds.
Could you give an example or two of "the ecumenical creeds". Does this include the Athanasian Creed?
If your group which you still did not name properly lived in the middle ages and was involved in shaping the governance of kingdoms, I am pretty sure it would not be as peaceful and nice and democratic as you imagine.
My fellowship does not get involved in politics or warfare and this agrees with my assessment of the Apostolic Faith.

Kind regards
Trevor
 

HealthyShape

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Could you give an example or two of "the ecumenical creeds". Does this include the Athanasian Creed?
The Apostles’ and Nicene creeds and the Chalcedonian definition. The Athanasian is not an ecumenical creed, because it was not produced by the ecumenical council. It was created in the West and is authoritative in the RCC and in the Anglican church, I guess.

My fellowship does not get involved in politics or warfare and this agrees with my assessment of the Apostolic Faith.
Because it is easy as pie today, in the 21st century, for some small "fellowship" and after the separation of the state and church.

But if you were the biggest church in the middle ages in a specific post-pagan country, you would get involved in politics and maybe even in warfare. So, this is pretty hypocritical, to judge/compare somebody in the past with you today.
 
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Adventageous

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I would not call them protestants ...

Seventh Day Adventists ... not protestants and some are not even Christians.
As the old saying goes, 'I are too (a Protestant)!' - Revelation 17 - Hydra Therapy, The Cure For A 7 Heads Ache : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

In fact, God is the first Protestant:

Jer_11:7 For I earnestly protested unto your fathers in the day that I brought them up out of the land of Egypt, even unto this day, rising early and protesting, saying, Obey my voice.​

Seventh-day Adventists (which for some reason you obviously have special 'beef' with, placing them first on your list), are made up of all manner of those people which protest against Romanism (Roman Catholicism), and all her daughters incorrect faith and erroneous practices, and have historical roots in the Great Awakening era of the united States of America, which included early adventists of all sorts, such as Millerites, Baptists, Lutherans, Presbyterians, Anglicans, Methodists, ex-Roman Catholics, even converted Jews, &c.

You may see that history here:
- Lineage (Historical Christianity) -
- Tell The World (Historical Re-Enactment; Great Awakening, Millerite, Advent movement, Seventh-day Adventists) - Tell The World - Re-Enactment Film & Trailer : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
- The Great Controversy (Audio Book) -

Whether you ever accept any of that or not, will be up to you, ultimately.

The so-called "Reformed churches" actually teach all manner of Romanist doctrines / practices to this day (and that even includes people like 'James White' A&O min., etc., whom I have listened to on numerous occasions), and many examples may be provided (*), and I have sat in meetings with so-called "Reformed" pastorship, and the error that poured from their lips at the first mention of a Seventh-day Adventist in their presence was astonishing. I even emailed a few.

(*) - https://dn710205.ca.archive.org/0/items/godhead-10/Godhead 31.jpg
 

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TrevorHL

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Greetings again HealthyShape and Greetings Adventageous,
The Apostles’ and Nicene creeds and the Chalcedonian definition.
I assess this as when they declared Jesus is God and the second when they added the Holy Spirit as God. My first major discussion on the Trinity was on a forum and it was quite measured as I would post one day/evening in Australia and the main participant would respond the next day/evening in the USA. We covered quite a range of verses on either side and the thread ran into something like 19 pages. The Moderator joined in with a few posts and his favourite reference was 1 John 5:7. I suggested that this was spurious and also a.number of the Trinitarians objected to this verse. Towards the end the Moderator added his favourite verse again and then closed the thread.

Another member asked me again on some of my understanding and I was reticent to repeat. Soon after I was banned when a couple of members drew attention to the rules that it was necessary to believe in the Nicene Creed.
Because it is easy as pie today, in the 21st century, for some small "fellowship" and after the separation of the state and church.
Some of my fellowship have and did encounter problems in some countries. I missed out on a call up before the Vietnam War, but others have had to face the Judiciary. This was especially the case in the two World Wars. Our fellowship gained exemption in the American Civil War. My assessment of the earliest Anabaptist is that they did not get involved in politics and warfare. The Amish and Mennonites seem to carry on this tradition.
The Apostles’ and Nicene creeds and the Chalcedonian definition.
Are essentially erroneous in several places.
SDAs today endorse some form of the Trinity even though some of their founding pioneers did not accept the Trinity.

Kind regards
Trevor
 

HealthyShape

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As the old saying goes, 'I are too (a Protestant)
In fact, God is the first Protestant:

Jer_11:7 For I earnestly protested unto your fathers in the day that I brought them up out of the land of Egypt, even unto this day, rising early and protesting, saying, Obey my voice.​
This is not how words work. Protestants in Christian theology is terminus technicus for specific group of people, it is not just "anybody who protests against something".

Seventh-day Adventists (which for some reason you obviously have special 'beef' with, placing them first on your list),

Any list will have some first and last place, it is not ordered by the intensity of "beef". I have a "beef" with any sect or cult that is actively pushing their propaganda. And yes, Seventh Day Adventists are active in that, see your own post. You do not conversate, you push the SDA propaganda - in many posts of yours. Links and videos to SDA materials nobody asked for.
 
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HealthyShape

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I assess this as when they declared Jesus is God and the second when they added the Holy Spirit as God. My first major discussion on the Trinity was on a forum and it was quite measured as I would post one day/evening in Australia and the main participant would respond the next day/evening in the USA. We covered quite a range of verses on either side and the thread ran into something like 19 pages. The Moderator joined in with a few posts and his favourite reference was 1 John 5:7. I suggested that this was spurious and also a.number of the Trinitarians objected to this verse. Towards the end the Moderator added his favourite verse again and then closed the thread.
Your hardships being active in Christians Only sections of online forums without believing that Jesus is true God, are only logical and to be expected.

If you want to challenge Christian beliefs, you would need to find some online space that is not "Christians Only". It is good to always check the rules of any online board.

Even on this board, you have sections "Christian Apologetics Forum" and "Inter-faith Discussion", which would be the proper places, I guess. You can consult that with moderators.

By the way, I agree that 1J 5:7 is not a good evidence, it is not in the best manuscripts.
 
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Adventageous

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... The Moderator joined in with a few posts and his favourite reference was 1 John 5:7. I suggested that this was spurious and also a.number of the Trinitarians objected to this verse. ...
1 Jhn. 5:7 is definitely not spurious, since it is evidenced throughout historical record, see Chap. 13, pages 179-240 - Godhead - The Eternal Heavenly Trio : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

It (1 Jhn. 5:7) is definitely misunderstood by a vast majority of people, however. Yet, the chapter covers its real meaning in the context if you desire to consider that material.

The reasons that certain "Trinitarians" "objected to this verse", is because it does not teach their definition of "trinity" in the least, and they know it. It is also not an arian verse either, for that matter. There is a reason certain persons attempted to have this verse removed, which happens to now be evidenced in certain mss copies that are extant.
 

TrevorHL

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Greetings again HealthyShape and Adventageous,,
If you want to challenge Christian beliefs, you would need to find some online space that is not "Christians Only".
That would limit my involvement in many threads. I like this forum as it is the only one that I am currently involved with that allows me to respond with my old Tablet and I use this early in the morning when time is limited. Other forums necessitate starting my old slow PC. I claim to be "Christian" and my policy is to attempt to honestly participate as long as I discuss Scripture and in my opinion give a correct assessment of what this is teaching. If I state the Truth and still get banned, then so be it. I have a large library of books that I have not read as yet.
1 Jhn. 5:7 is definitely not spurious, since it is evidenced throughout historical record, see Chap. 13, pages 179-240 - Godhead - The Eternal Heavenly Trio : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
The Title of the Book is sufficient for me to avoid reading the Book as I believe in the One God, Yahweh, God the Father. So many pages with a wrong doctrine for a Title. I also do not like the Book The Great Controversy that you mentioned earlier, especially EG White's speculation about the National Sabbath Law, resulting in the anticipated persecution of SDAs, and then the burning of the earth. I believe that Jesus will return to reign on earth for the 1000 years and restore and refresh all things Isaiah 2:1-4, Acts 3:19-21.

I have never been involved in trying to examine various Greek Manuscripts. In my youth I encountered a Plymouth Brother who was an "Expert" in this field, but the only passage that he ever mentioned to me was John 7:53-8:11 which he considered should not be in the Bible. I am now absolutely convinced that this is a valid portion of John's Gospel record and also convinced that it is placed in the correct position, as this is also questioned by some translations. Are SDAs almost KJV Only advocates?

Kind regards
Trevor
 

HealthyShape

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That would limit my involvement in many threads.
Yes, that is the point of "Christians Only" limitation, I suppose. To keep it for Christians Only (who would guess). You are tolerated by the moderators to be here, but it is unsafe for you and you can be banned/restricted in any moment, so it is at your own risk.

I claim to be "Christian" and my policy is to attempt to honestly participate as long as I discuss Scripture and in my opinion give a correct assessment of what this is teaching.
But you mislead other participants with that self-claimed definition. They expect that you accept basic Christian doctrines, when they talk to you or when they read your ideas.
 

HealthyShape

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I "praise the LORD" and "thank God" that I am "not an orthodox Christian". What a mess such persons have made of scriptural Christianity.
But it did not limit you in sneaking into Christians Only forum to spread your propaganda, there. First, you pretend to be like orthodox Christians to get access to them and then you publicly despise them like in this post and generally try to convert them into your sect.

A bit unethical, if you ask me. It is similar to me labeling myself a Seventh Day Adventist, getting access to SDA only forums and then starting to attacking them and converting them to Protestantism. How would you like that?
 
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soberxp

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If you are planning to have a child with your wife or husband, do you have many thoughts beforehand? What kind of appearance should the child have in the future? What kind of personality should it have? An image will first come to your mind.

Sober 1:1 In the beginning was the mind, and the mind was with father, and the mind was father.
John 1:1 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

And the mind became flesh.
And the word became flesh.
 

TrevorHL

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Greetings again HealthyShape,
But you mislead other participants with that self-claimed definition. They expect that you accept basic Christian doctrines, when they talk to you or when they read your ideas.
But I reject your definition of "Christian" as I have discussed earlier in this thread. There was a big difference between the early Ekklesias and their Elders Acts 20 and the growth of individual Bishops over a large area who then gathered to discuss in the Council with the outcome of the Nicaean Creed, partly imposed on many members.

Kind regards
Trevor
 

Adventageous

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This is not how words work.
Actually, yes, that is how "words work". They come together in a logical progression, using form, syntax, structure, &c. and form a meaningful sentence. That 'you' disagree with what I stated is not my concern. It is 'your' concern.
 
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