soberxp
Well-Known Member
So Hitler's persecution was also part of God's plan. Otherwise, it wouldn't make sense to explain this issue.
Should we as Christians support the State of Israel ?
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1stCenturyLady
Well-Known Member
I am against what Hitler did, just as I am against what Antiochus IV Epiphanes and Nero did. Were you? Yes, God did allow these atrocities. But He has promised to revive them. This prophecy is 2 days/2,000 years, and third day is the 1,000 year Millennium where during the last 7 years before the return of Christ all Israel will be saved, Romans 11:25-26. Man may lie, but God does not.
Hosea 6
Come, and let us return to the Lord;
For He has torn, but He will heal us;
He has stricken, but He will bind us up.
2 After two days He will revive us;
On the third day He will raise us up,
That we may live in His sight.
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1stCenturyLady
Well-Known Member
I have no idea what you are talking about. What have I bought hook, line, and sinker? Who do you believe started this war between Iran and Israel. And what happened on October 7, 2023 in your mind? Were babies not roasted alive? Hamas is sick and needs to wiped out.
soberxp
Well-Known Member
So, imagine when the Israelites in the Old Testament were taken into exile and then rescued by Cyrus the Persian, at the time of their return—was it also like the situation they are in now?
1stCenturyLady
Well-Known Member
soberxp
Well-Known Member
So, imagine when the Israelites in the Old Testament were taken into exile and then rescued by Cyrus the Persian, at the time of their return—was it also like the situation they are in now?
Then who lived on the land? Did their return not cause a war?
soberxp
Well-Known Member
Your question is very precise. It touches upon the very essence of that historical period. When we focus on the phrase "irreconcilable conflict," we find it is indeed a thread that connects the ancient and modern eras.
**Yes, during the era of the return initiated by Cyrus the Great, a conflict that could be described as "irreconcilable" under the conditions of that time did arise between the Jews and the Samaritans.** While this conflict cannot be compared in scale or form to the full-scale war risks faced by modern Israel, in terms of the profundity of its fundamental contradiction, it can be seen as the ancient version of an "irreconcilable" conflict.
### The Roots and Manifestations of the Ancient "Irreconcilable" Conflict
The "irreconcilable" nature of the conflict between the ancient Jews and Samaritans stemmed primarily from a fundamental clash of identity. To understand this conflict, we can look at the following comparison:
| Dimension of Comparison | The Returning Jews | The Local Samaritans |
| :--- | :--- | :--- |
| **Core Identity** | **Purity of Monotheistic Faith**. They considered themselves the sole legitimate inheritors of the "holy nation" covenanted with God, and they had to strictly separate themselves from foreign influences. | **Mixed Religion and Lineage**. They were descendants of the people who remained in the land and intermarried with foreign peoples brought in by the conquerors. While they also worshipped Yahweh, they were seen by the Jews as tainted by idolatry and thus "impure." |
| **Worship Center** | **Jerusalem**. This was considered the exclusive dwelling place designated by God. | **Mount Gerizim**. They believed this was the true divinely appointed place of worship, creating a sharp opposition to Jerusalem. |
| **Root of Conflict** | Rejecting the Samaritans' request to participate in rebuilding the Temple, as it was seen as defiling a sacred mission. | After their request to participate in the rebuilding was denied, they felt rejected and humiliated, and subsequently became the most determined opponents of the reconstruction project. |
**This "irreconcilable" conflict primarily manifested at the time as:**
* **Sustained Political Opposition**: They used their influence to repeatedly petition the Persian king, accusing the Jews of sedition, and even succeeded in halting the reconstruction work in Jerusalem for a period.
* **Social Segregation**: The two groups formed separate communities with no interaction. This schism deepened over subsequent centuries, eventually evolving into a complete religious schism.
###
Essential Differences from "Modern War Risks"
Although the ancient contradiction was "irreconcilable" within its social context, it differs fundamentally from the "war risks" faced by modern Israel.
* **The Ancient Conflict: A "Struggle for Existence and Identity."** It occurred primarily within the framework of an empire (Persia), where both sides competed for religious orthodoxy, local influence, and living space. The means of conflict were political lawsuits, economic sabotage, and social segregation. The goal was to "suppress" the other within an established order, not to completely annihilate their existence.
* **Modern War Risks: A "Confrontation over Sovereignty and Survival."** It involves modern states with sovereignty, militaries, and international legal standing, facing composite military threats from other nations and non-state actors. The means of conflict is modern warfare, and its objective is to defend or destroy the state itself.
So, simply put, the ancient "irreconcilable" conflict was a **vertical, deep-seated opposition in religious identity**, while modern war risks represent a **horizontal, life-or-death struggle between sovereign states**. The ancient conflict laid a distant historical precedent for the modern opposition, but the complexity and brutality of the latter have pushed this conflict to a level unimaginable to the ancients.
**Yes, during the era of the return initiated by Cyrus the Great, a conflict that could be described as "irreconcilable" under the conditions of that time did arise between the Jews and the Samaritans.** While this conflict cannot be compared in scale or form to the full-scale war risks faced by modern Israel, in terms of the profundity of its fundamental contradiction, it can be seen as the ancient version of an "irreconcilable" conflict.
### The Roots and Manifestations of the Ancient "Irreconcilable" Conflict
The "irreconcilable" nature of the conflict between the ancient Jews and Samaritans stemmed primarily from a fundamental clash of identity. To understand this conflict, we can look at the following comparison:
| Dimension of Comparison | The Returning Jews | The Local Samaritans |
| :--- | :--- | :--- |
| **Core Identity** | **Purity of Monotheistic Faith**. They considered themselves the sole legitimate inheritors of the "holy nation" covenanted with God, and they had to strictly separate themselves from foreign influences. | **Mixed Religion and Lineage**. They were descendants of the people who remained in the land and intermarried with foreign peoples brought in by the conquerors. While they also worshipped Yahweh, they were seen by the Jews as tainted by idolatry and thus "impure." |
| **Worship Center** | **Jerusalem**. This was considered the exclusive dwelling place designated by God. | **Mount Gerizim**. They believed this was the true divinely appointed place of worship, creating a sharp opposition to Jerusalem. |
| **Root of Conflict** | Rejecting the Samaritans' request to participate in rebuilding the Temple, as it was seen as defiling a sacred mission. | After their request to participate in the rebuilding was denied, they felt rejected and humiliated, and subsequently became the most determined opponents of the reconstruction project. |
**This "irreconcilable" conflict primarily manifested at the time as:**
* **Sustained Political Opposition**: They used their influence to repeatedly petition the Persian king, accusing the Jews of sedition, and even succeeded in halting the reconstruction work in Jerusalem for a period.
* **Social Segregation**: The two groups formed separate communities with no interaction. This schism deepened over subsequent centuries, eventually evolving into a complete religious schism.
###
Essential Differences from "Modern War Risks"Although the ancient contradiction was "irreconcilable" within its social context, it differs fundamentally from the "war risks" faced by modern Israel.
* **The Ancient Conflict: A "Struggle for Existence and Identity."** It occurred primarily within the framework of an empire (Persia), where both sides competed for religious orthodoxy, local influence, and living space. The means of conflict were political lawsuits, economic sabotage, and social segregation. The goal was to "suppress" the other within an established order, not to completely annihilate their existence.
* **Modern War Risks: A "Confrontation over Sovereignty and Survival."** It involves modern states with sovereignty, militaries, and international legal standing, facing composite military threats from other nations and non-state actors. The means of conflict is modern warfare, and its objective is to defend or destroy the state itself.
So, simply put, the ancient "irreconcilable" conflict was a **vertical, deep-seated opposition in religious identity**, while modern war risks represent a **horizontal, life-or-death struggle between sovereign states**. The ancient conflict laid a distant historical precedent for the modern opposition, but the complexity and brutality of the latter have pushed this conflict to a level unimaginable to the ancients.
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soberxp
Well-Known Member
**Then during the time of Jesus, the "irreconcilable conflict" between Jews and Samaritans.**
By the time of Jesus, the centuries-long conflict between Jews and Samaritans had evolved from initial political and racial confrontation into a deeply entrenched **ethnic and religious segregation** that permeated daily life. This state of "irreconcilability" is clearly reflected in multiple accounts throughout the New Testament.
### Multi-Dimensional Manifestations of the Conflict
In Jesus' era, this "irreconcilability" manifested in every aspect of daily life, which can be summarized in the following table:
| Dimension of Conflict | Specific Manifestations and Historical Background |
| :--- | :--- |
| **Social Segregation** | The Gospel of John explicitly states: "Jews have no dealings with Samaritans" (John 4:9). This segregation affected all areas of life; for instance, Jewish legal tradition even held that "the bread of a Samaritan is more unclean than swine's flesh." |
| **Verbal Insults** | "Samaritan" itself had become a term of abuse. When Jewish leaders wanted to insult Jesus, they said: "Are we not right in saying that you are a Samaritan and have a demon?" (John 8:48). |
| **Hostility and Violence** | This hatred was also accompanied by violence. According to the historian Josephus, Samaritans often attacked Galilean pilgrims traveling to Jerusalem for festivals. When Jesus was rejected by a Samaritan village, his disciples James and John wanted to call fire down from heaven to destroy them (Luke 9:51-56). |
| **Religious Opposition** | This was the core root of the conflict. The two groups had different centers of worship: Jews considered the Temple in Jerusalem the sole holy place, while Samaritans worshipped God on Mount Gerizim. Samaritans accepted only the Pentateuch and even altered its text (e.g., changing "Mount Ebal" to "Mount Gerizim" in Deuteronomy 27:4) to support their chosen place of worship. |
### Jesus: A Unique Attitude of Transcending Hatred
In such a fiercely antagonistic environment, the attitude of Jesus Christ demonstrated remarkable transcendence. He not only avoided the conflict but actively broke down this wall of partition:
* **Deliberately Passing Through Samaria**: The Gospel of John records that Jesus "had to" pass through Samaria (John 4:4). This was not a geographical necessity (Jews of the time usually took a detour) but a necessity arising from his mission.
* **Speaking with the Samaritan Woman**: At Jacob's well in Sychar, Jesus asked a Samaritan woman coming to draw water for a drink and engaged in a profound theological dialogue with her, ultimately revealing to her plainly that he was the Messiah (John 4:26). This was an astonishing act in the context of the first century.
* **Setting the Example of the "Good Samaritan"**: When questioned by a lawyer about "who is my neighbor," Jesus told a parable: In stark contrast to the priest and Levite who passed by without helping, it was a Samaritan—considered an enemy—who was moved with compassion and aided a complete stranger, a Jew (Luke 10:25-37). This parable completely overturned the racial and religious prejudices of his time.
* **Giving the Great Commission**: After his resurrection, Jesus commanded his disciples to be his witnesses "in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth" (Acts 1:8). This signified that the gospel was to break down all ethnic barriers. Subsequently, Philip went down to the city of Samaria and preached Christ, bringing about a great revival (Acts 8:4-8).
In summary, the "irreconcilability" between Jews and Samaritans in Jesus' time was the inevitable product of centuries of historical trauma and religious opposition. The words and actions of Jesus Christ, within this extremely tense social context, opened a path that transcended hatred and pointed toward **reconciliation**.
By the time of Jesus, the centuries-long conflict between Jews and Samaritans had evolved from initial political and racial confrontation into a deeply entrenched **ethnic and religious segregation** that permeated daily life. This state of "irreconcilability" is clearly reflected in multiple accounts throughout the New Testament.
### Multi-Dimensional Manifestations of the Conflict
In Jesus' era, this "irreconcilability" manifested in every aspect of daily life, which can be summarized in the following table:
| Dimension of Conflict | Specific Manifestations and Historical Background |
| :--- | :--- |
| **Social Segregation** | The Gospel of John explicitly states: "Jews have no dealings with Samaritans" (John 4:9). This segregation affected all areas of life; for instance, Jewish legal tradition even held that "the bread of a Samaritan is more unclean than swine's flesh." |
| **Verbal Insults** | "Samaritan" itself had become a term of abuse. When Jewish leaders wanted to insult Jesus, they said: "Are we not right in saying that you are a Samaritan and have a demon?" (John 8:48). |
| **Hostility and Violence** | This hatred was also accompanied by violence. According to the historian Josephus, Samaritans often attacked Galilean pilgrims traveling to Jerusalem for festivals. When Jesus was rejected by a Samaritan village, his disciples James and John wanted to call fire down from heaven to destroy them (Luke 9:51-56). |
| **Religious Opposition** | This was the core root of the conflict. The two groups had different centers of worship: Jews considered the Temple in Jerusalem the sole holy place, while Samaritans worshipped God on Mount Gerizim. Samaritans accepted only the Pentateuch and even altered its text (e.g., changing "Mount Ebal" to "Mount Gerizim" in Deuteronomy 27:4) to support their chosen place of worship. |
### Jesus: A Unique Attitude of Transcending Hatred
In such a fiercely antagonistic environment, the attitude of Jesus Christ demonstrated remarkable transcendence. He not only avoided the conflict but actively broke down this wall of partition:
* **Deliberately Passing Through Samaria**: The Gospel of John records that Jesus "had to" pass through Samaria (John 4:4). This was not a geographical necessity (Jews of the time usually took a detour) but a necessity arising from his mission.
* **Speaking with the Samaritan Woman**: At Jacob's well in Sychar, Jesus asked a Samaritan woman coming to draw water for a drink and engaged in a profound theological dialogue with her, ultimately revealing to her plainly that he was the Messiah (John 4:26). This was an astonishing act in the context of the first century.
* **Setting the Example of the "Good Samaritan"**: When questioned by a lawyer about "who is my neighbor," Jesus told a parable: In stark contrast to the priest and Levite who passed by without helping, it was a Samaritan—considered an enemy—who was moved with compassion and aided a complete stranger, a Jew (Luke 10:25-37). This parable completely overturned the racial and religious prejudices of his time.
* **Giving the Great Commission**: After his resurrection, Jesus commanded his disciples to be his witnesses "in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth" (Acts 1:8). This signified that the gospel was to break down all ethnic barriers. Subsequently, Philip went down to the city of Samaria and preached Christ, bringing about a great revival (Acts 8:4-8).
In summary, the "irreconcilability" between Jews and Samaritans in Jesus' time was the inevitable product of centuries of historical trauma and religious opposition. The words and actions of Jesus Christ, within this extremely tense social context, opened a path that transcended hatred and pointed toward **reconciliation**.
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So, if some here don't support the State of Israel, that's the same as 'Hating Jews'?
soberxp
Well-Known Member
Your question is very precise. It touches upon the very essence of that historical period. When we focus on the phrase "irreconcilable conflict," we find it is indeed a thread that connects the ancient and modern eras.
**Yes, during the era of the return initiated by Cyrus the Great, a conflict that could be described as "irreconcilable" under the conditions of that time did arise between the Jews and the Samaritans.** While this conflict cannot be compared in scale or form to the full-scale war risks faced by modern Israel, in terms of the profundity of its fundamental contradiction, it can be seen as the ancient version of an "irreconcilable" conflict.
### The Roots and Manifestations of the Ancient "Irreconcilable" Conflict
The "irreconcilable" nature of the conflict between the ancient Jews and Samaritans stemmed primarily from a fundamental clash of identity. To understand this conflict, we can look at the following comparison:
| Dimension of Comparison | The Returning Jews | The Local Samaritans |
| :--- | :--- | :--- |
| **Core Identity** | **Purity of Monotheistic Faith**. They considered themselves the sole legitimate inheritors of the "holy nation" covenanted with God, and they had to strictly separate themselves from foreign influences. | **Mixed Religion and Lineage**. They were descendants of the people who remained in the land and intermarried with foreign peoples brought in by the conquerors. While they also worshipped Yahweh, they were seen by the Jews as tainted by idolatry and thus "impure." |
| **Worship Center** | **Jerusalem**. This was considered the exclusive dwelling place designated by God. | **Mount Gerizim**. They believed this was the true divinely appointed place of worship, creating a sharp opposition to Jerusalem. |
| **Root of Conflict** | Rejecting the Samaritans' request to participate in rebuilding the Temple, as it was seen as defiling a sacred mission. | After their request to participate in the rebuilding was denied, they felt rejected and humiliated, and subsequently became the most determined opponents of the reconstruction project. |
**This "irreconcilable" conflict primarily manifested at the time as:**
* **Sustained Political Opposition**: They used their influence to repeatedly petition the Persian king, accusing the Jews of sedition, and even succeeded in halting the reconstruction work in Jerusalem for a period.
* **Social Segregation**: The two groups formed separate communities with no interaction. This schism deepened over subsequent centuries, eventually evolving into a complete religious schism.
###
Although the ancient contradiction was "irreconcilable" within its social context, it differs fundamentally from the "war risks" faced by modern Israel.
* **The Ancient Conflict: A "Struggle for Existence and Identity."** It occurred primarily within the framework of an empire (Persia), where both sides competed for religious orthodoxy, local influence, and living space. The means of conflict were political lawsuits, economic sabotage, and social segregation. The goal was to "suppress" the other within an established order, not to completely annihilate their existence.
* **Modern War Risks: A "Confrontation over Sovereignty and Survival."** It involves modern states with sovereignty, militaries, and international legal standing, facing composite military threats from other nations and non-state actors. The means of conflict is modern warfare, and its objective is to defend or destroy the state itself.
So, simply put, the ancient "irreconcilable" conflict was a **vertical, deep-seated opposition in religious identity**, while modern war risks represent a **horizontal, life-or-death struggle between sovereign states**. The ancient conflict laid a distant historical precedent for the modern opposition, but the complexity and brutality of the latter have pushed this conflict to a level unimaginable to the ancients.
The truth is somewhere in between.
Marvelloustime
Well-Known Member
Brakelite
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But for dispensationalism, the current war would not be.
Matthew 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof Matthew 23:38
Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
Galatians 3:16 Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy Seed, which is Christ.
Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Galatians 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Matthew 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof Matthew 23:38
Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
Galatians 3:16 Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy Seed, which is Christ.
Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Galatians 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Brakelite
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Why does everything have to revert to hatred? Cannot we disagree with someone else's premises and principles without being constantly accused of hatred? Stop buying into left wing politics.
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
That my friend was a lovely question .
POINT THEM and every last one TO the DIRE NECESSITY to BELEIVE ON JESUS the CHRIST .
That is how .
But watch out my friend
For through interfaith interreligious diaologue , THE DIRE NECESSITY to REPENT to BELEIVE ON JESUS
has been OMITTED and BY A LIE .
SO you see there is a peace of the world that cometh of anti christ and of the darkness and of men .
We must avoid this and rather preach the ONLY PEACE a man can have
TO be reconciled to GOD BY FAITH IN THE SON CHRIST JESUS .
WE should stick to the preaching of JESUS to both the jew and gentile .
1stCenturyLady
Well-Known Member
Were they free under Cyrus the Persian like they are now? I know today's Israelites compare Donald Trump to Cyrus.
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
Hear ye the parable of the free that is in bondage
and those in bondage and yet are free .
THEN PONDER AND PRAY ABOUT IT .
There are many that live in democratic socities free from the opression and tyranny of men
and yet are in bondage to death and sin .
There are many that live in horrendous conditions , b eing chased from town to town
some being lit on fire , some heads cut off
and yet they are FREE and not in bondage .
AND NOW let us learn and understand that this peace plan this idea of peace
for isreal , WILL NOT SAVE israel but has allowed the lie of death to remain upon them .
Now get every man , woman and child far f rom this peace for israel and ecumeincal movement .
THIS peace plan is bad news . and these leaders cannot save israel , in fact
they are part of the plan that will leave them in bondage to sin and to death .
Preach JESUS and lets get the heck out of this political nightmare .
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
cryus was a part in helping israel to build the earthen temple .
Todays cryrus in a co helper to keeping israel far from the TRUE TEMPLE which be in heaven and not of earth .
I suggest we get our minds off th is so called message of these men of today .
Who have acted like the churches mission is to help save israel and peace for israel .
CAUSE it does neither . its been a co helper to only keeping israel FROM THE TRUE peace
and true safety OF GOD and of THE LAMB . and people think satan cannot decieve . OH but he can
and oh but he has . KINDA ODD that in all of this religoius peace plan
this so called good for israel that i see a fat lie . THAT MUSLIMS and us serve the same GOD
and that we just needs to bring the so called abrahamic faiths together as one .
KINDA ODD however is the fact
that THIS ABRAHAM they all t hink they are part of
HIS FAITH WAS IN GOD . not in a lie .
This did not do abraham . WHEN GOD SPOKE abraham b leieved .
Todays version of abraham sure dont POINT TO THE DIRE NEED TO BELEIVE ON JESUS .
AND that makes it NOT OF ABRAHAM , OF MOSES , or teh prophets
NOT OF CHRIST and NOT OF GOD . we all being lied too little lady .
BIBLE TIME and JESUS Preach ing TIME .
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
Leaven leavens . oh even a wee bit of leaven surely can l eaven .
The question is
WHEN are folks gonna stop si tting under men
and get b ack into the bible for themselves .
cause we got two choices , continue this course and wear out and sell out , WHICH MANY have done and will do
OR we can get our rumps b ack into the bible and stop trusting in our DENOMINATION
and etc .
Cause read my lips , THIS SHEEP DONT COMPROMISE
nor should any . But it sure would have been so simple , IF only
IF i say and IF ONLY
oh if and if ONLY people had returned to JUST and i say JUST and i mean JUST the BIBLE .
GET THE HECK OUT of d enomantions
and into the bible .
OR expect ONLY continued co rrection . WHICH in time gonna wear you out too .
PEOPLE cannot stand firm day in and day out on a slippery slope , they will wear out .
BUT THOSE who stand upon TRUTH , HAVE THE LORD and HE shall supply them as they have need .
SO .
SEW
and SO again . BIBLE TIME , DENOMINATION EVACUTATION TIME . the choice be yours .
Triumph1300
Well-Known Member
The weirdo in the White House: “Today Iran will be hit very hard!”.
And then the kind of ominous expansion-of-targets language that tells you exactly where this goes next:
Trump: “Under serious consideration for complete destruction and certain death … are areas and groups of people that were not considered for targeting up until this moment in time.”
(He forgot the girl school he destroyed.)
Escalation as branding, again.
--------------------------------
When will the American people put a stop to this mad man?
I believe they will put a stop to this madness when the boots go on the ground in Iran.
That's when the body bags will be arriving back into the US in very large Vietnam Style quantities.
------------------------------
It wiil be just a matter of time.
But will be to late for some sons, daughters and dads.
------------------------------
Insanity combined with Inflation!
Enjoy your saturday!
And then the kind of ominous expansion-of-targets language that tells you exactly where this goes next:
Trump: “Under serious consideration for complete destruction and certain death … are areas and groups of people that were not considered for targeting up until this moment in time.”
(He forgot the girl school he destroyed.)
Escalation as branding, again.
--------------------------------
When will the American people put a stop to this mad man?
I believe they will put a stop to this madness when the boots go on the ground in Iran.
That's when the body bags will be arriving back into the US in very large Vietnam Style quantities.
------------------------------
It wiil be just a matter of time.
But will be to late for some sons, daughters and dads.
------------------------------
Insanity combined with Inflation!
Enjoy your saturday!