Hell as the default for humankind?

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
Who created the way into it?

Adam and Satan

So, Eve has a get-out-of-hell-free card? - LOL
What about the Serpent? Is he off the hook as well?
(Satan is not even mentioned in the text in question)
You also need to explain HOW Adam and Satan created a way into hell. ???
Did one of them create hell itself?

St. SteVen said:
And what about the countless billions who never had a choice?

Everyone gets a chance to Believe, as otherwise God would not be able to hold the unbeliever accountable.

I guess that's my point, Not everyone did have a chance, so God cannot hold "unbelievers" accountable.
Have you not heard of unreached people groups? Joshua Project - Reaching the Unreached | Joshua Project

St. SteVen said:
You are left to whitewash a very ugly situation.

Im not here to spit on the Bible and falsely accuse God.
That's your ministry, remember @St. SteVen .?

That's not a fair criticism.
When you run out of real ammo, you start throwing insults.

Do you really believe that God burning humans for all eternity is not an ugly business?
If you were honest you would admit that your theology views God as the creator of hell.
And that He chooses to send humans there, which you try to blame on the victims.
Who goes to the Lake of Fire? And when?

 

[Bob]

The Plan?
- Create humankind in your own image.
- Give them free-will to choose.
- Pay their sin debt.
- Send them to Hell for not accepting a free gift.

What's wrong with this picture?

Thank you for drawing our attention (to yet another enigma).

Herewith a possible explanation.

Elohim makes a creature in His image: able to create new things, able to understand His creation (science), given an eternal soul, given shared stewardship of the planet, given the ability to love Him, given the ability to understand how to love neighbors.

Adam & Eve are given two important commands: tend the Garden, and remember that God alone is the source of all knowledge of good and evil. They clearly have been blessed as no other creature. (Do they appreciate it?)

A&E not only disobey, but are unrepentant. Does it not make sense for God to be justifiably angry and punish them and humanity? Result: instead of fulfilling the two commandments to love Him and our neighbors, we are now highly susceptible to selfish desires. (In fact, just witness the human toddlers who behave like little animals—self-centered and using any means thinkable to obtain their ends.)

But, although God is extremely unhappy, disappointed, angry, . . . , with incredible grace, He sends His one and only Son as a sacrificial Lamb, to atone for our condition.

And what should God do with those who fail to recognize, appreciate, and embrace God’s gift?

What would parents’ reaction be to a child raised in loving kindness and who sacrificed that which meant everything to them, but then the child rejected them and their sacrifices?

And what of those who desecrate the memories of those youth killed in a war, meant to preserve the freedoms of even the desecraters: are we not justifiably angry?

Perhaps eternal punishment is fitting for those who reject God’s poigant gift, given at such an unfathomable cost to Him.

Blessings.

 

[St. SteVen]

Does it not make sense for God to be justifiably angry and punish them and humanity?

That's my point Bob.
It doesn't make sense to me that God would be angry and punish all of humankind for A&E's transgression.
Who put the Tree in the center of the Garden? (orchard) Seems like a test, or a challenge.

Adam & Eve are given two important commands: tend the Garden, and remember that God alone is the source of all knowledge of good and evil. They clearly have been blessed as no other creature. (Do they appreciate it?)

The knowledge of good and evil came from eating thereof.
It seems that prior to that they had no knowledge of either.
At the end of Genesis chapter two they were naked and unashamed.

 

[Bob]

That's my point Bob.
It doesn't make sense to me that God would be angry and punish all of humankind for A&E's transgression.
Who put the Tree in the center of the Garden? (orchard) Seems like a test, or a challenge.


The knowledge of good and evil came from eating thereof.
It seems that prior to that they had no knowledge of either.
At the end of Genesis chapter two they were naked and unashamed.

Excellent response.

So: if we reject original sin, how do we account for the behavior of toddlers (self-centered, selfish desires, means justify ends, etc.) and the need for parents to inculcate Love Thy Neighbor?

And if we were to reject original sin, what is Jesus’ role in Judgement?

Lastly, if God’s Grace is infinite, but we face eternal punishment by rejecting Jesus, then can we conclude the magnitude of His anger at our rejection is greater than His grace? (FYI: in mathematics, not all infinities are the same—some are larger than others.)

Blessings.

 

[Jack]

The Plan?
- Create humankind in your own image.
- Give them free-will to choose.
- Pay their sin debt.
- Send them to Hell for not accepting a free gift.

What's wrong with this picture?

It's YOU stevie. That's what's wrong. You can't tell God what to do! How did you ever get such a Satanic idea?

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
That's my point Bob.
It doesn't make sense to me that God would be angry and punish all of humankind for A&E's transgression.
Who put the Tree in the center of the Garden? (orchard) Seems like a test, or a challenge.

The knowledge of good and evil came from eating thereof.
It seems that prior to that they had no knowledge of either.
At the end of Genesis chapter two they were naked and unashamed.

Excellent response.

Thanks.

So: if we reject original sin, how do we account for the behavior of toddlers (self-centered, selfish desires, means justify ends, etc.) and the need for parents to inculcate Love Thy Neighbor?

I'm not rejecting original sin.
The Atonement paid the death penalty for ALL of humankind.

And if we were to reject original sin, what is Jesus’ role in Judgement?

Jesus' role in judgement is to bring accountability, restoration and redemption to a fallen world.

Lastly, if God’s Grace is infinite, but we face eternal punishment by rejecting Jesus, then can we conclude the magnitude of His anger at our rejection is greater than His grace? (FYI: in mathematics, not all infinities are the same—some are larger than others.)

I don't believe that anyone who rejects Christ will pay eternal consequences.
Obviously correction will be needed, but punishment is pointless.

Jesus taught us to love our enemies. What should He do with His?

 

[Bob]

St. SteVen said:
That's my point Bob.
It doesn't make sense to me that God would be angry and punish all of humankind for A&E's transgression.
Who put the Tree in the center of the Garden? (orchard) Seems like a test, or a challenge.

The knowledge of good and evil came from eating thereof.
It seems that prior to that they had no knowledge of either.
At the end of Genesis chapter two they were naked and unashamed.

Thanks.

I'm not rejecting original sin.
The Atonement paid the death penalty for ALL of humankind.


Jesus' role in judgement is to bring accountability, restoration and redemption to a fallen world.


I don't believe that anyone who rejects Christ will pay eternal consequences.
Obviously correction will be needed, but punishment is pointless.

Jesus taught us to love our enemies. What should He do with His?

Could we back up and clarify some points?

You said it doesn’t make sense that God would punish all of humanity for A&E’s (unrepentant) transgression (and I agree, actually). But that is the standard definition of original sin: our inheritance of the first corrupted souls. Yet a few sentences later you say you do not reject original sin. Which is it? Or do you have a different definition of original sin? (There are about as many differences as there are denominations.)

You stated A&E had no prior knowledge of good and evil. But: Before eating of the forbidden fruit, A&E had the knowledge God gave them (since they were made in His image). For example, they likely had at least a rudimentary understanding of Love Thy Neighbor, so that if A unintentionally made E angry, or vice versa, the other would know better to throw acorns or give some other rude response.

Re Love your enemies: my interpretation is that we are obligated to share food and drink, offer shelter, offer clothes, and provide health care to our enemies (and visit them in prison), and we should not strike them or take vengeance on them, or bear them ill will, or hold anger in our hearts against them. But if they have broken state laws, we can and should ask the state to hold them accountable (including the use of any force up to and including lethal force). (See also Matthew 18:15-17.)

In other words, although Jesus told us we were not to punish our enemies, he did not preclude state punishment.

After death, all face judgement, and for some unrepentant transgressors surely there will be punishment, too. Thus we return to whether eternal punishment is fitting from a merciful God. If the Bible says, “yes,” then my conclusion is that God’s (infinite) anger is sometimes greater than His (infinite) grace.

Comments?

 

[MonoBiblical]

Hell is not the default. The default is most are not translated fast like Enoch, Jesus, Paul etc.

 

[St. SteVen]

Could we back up and clarify some points?

Sure.

You said it doesn’t make sense that God would punish all of humanity for A&E’s (unrepentant) transgression (and I agree, actually). But that is the standard definition of original sin: our inheritance of the first corrupted souls. Yet a few sentences later you say you do not reject original sin. Which is it? Or do you have a different definition of original sin? (There are about as many differences as there are denominations.)

I believe in original sin retrospectively. What other explanation is there for the selfishness of infants? (as you mentioned earlier)
However, punishing the children for the sins of the parents doesn't really make sense.
“What do you people mean by quoting this proverb about the land of Israel:
“‘The parents eat sour grapes, and the children’s teeth are set on edge’? - Ezekiel 18:2 NIV

You stated A&E had no prior knowledge of good and evil. But: Before eating of the forbidden fruit, A&E had the knowledge God gave them (since they were made in His image). For example, they likely had at least a rudimentary understanding of Love Thy Neighbor, so that if A unintentionally made E angry, or vice versa, the other would know better to throw acorns or give some other rude response.

I don't agree with that. They were a blank slate. For them, the Knowledge of Good and Evil could only come from eating thereof.
The serpent convinced Eve of that benefit. When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye,
and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. - Genesis 3:6a NIV

Re Love your enemies: my interpretation is that we are obligated to share food and drink, offer shelter, offer clothes, and provide health care to our enemies (and visit them in prison), and we should not strike them or take vengeance on them, or bear them ill will, or hold anger in our hearts against them. But if they have broken state laws, we can and should ask the state to hold them accountable (including the use of any force up to and including lethal force). (See also Matthew 18:15-17.)

This is what I was referencing.
Jesus taught us that loving our enemies is a godly quality.

Matthew 5:43-48 NIV
“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor[a] and hate your enemy.’
44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,
45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise
on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.
46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get?
Are not even the tax collectors doing that?
47 And if you greet only your own people,
what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that?
48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

In other words, although Jesus told us we were not to punish our enemies, he did not preclude state punishment.

The rule of law is another subject entirely.

After death, all face judgement, and for some unrepentant transgressors surely there will be punishment, too. Thus we return to whether eternal punishment is fitting from a merciful God. If the Bible says, “yes,” then my conclusion is that God’s (infinite) anger is sometimes greater than His (infinite) grace.

The Bible also says that, in parenting, the rod of correction should be used, But don't beat the child to death.
If you do that today, the Child Protection Agency will remove the children from your home because of your abuse.

I can't accept the idea that God's anger is greater than His grace.
What a terrible picture we paint of an unapproachable heavenly Father with unbridled fury against humankind created in His image.

... Mercy triumphs over judgment. - James 2:13 NIV

 

[Bob]

Sure.

I believe in original sin retrospectively. What other explanation is there for the selfishness of infants? (as you mentioned earlier)
However, punishing the children for the sins of the parents doesn't really make sense.
“What do you people mean by quoting this proverb about the land of Israel:
“‘The parents eat sour grapes, and the children’s teeth are set on edge’? - Ezekiel 18:2 NIV


I don't agree with that. They were a blank slate. For them, the Knowledge of Good and Evil could only come from eating thereof.
The serpent convinced Eve of that benefit. When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye,
and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. - Genesis 3:6a NIV


This is what I was referencing.
Jesus taught us that loving our enemies is a godly quality.

Matthew 5:43-48 NIV
“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor[a] and hate your enemy.’
44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,
45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise
on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.
46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get?
Are not even the tax collectors doing that?
47 And if you greet only your own people,
what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that?
48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.


The rule of law is another subject entirely.


The Bible also says that, in parenting, the rod of correction should be used, But don't beat the child to death.
If you do that today, the Child Protection Agency will remove the children from your home because of your abuse.

I can't accept the idea that God's anger is greater than His grace.
What a terrible picture we paint of an unapproachable heavenly Father with unbridled fury against humankind created in His image.

... Mercy triumphs over judgment. - James 2:13 NIV

Thank you for the comments.

Our remaining differences are so small they do not appear worth pursuing in this format.

Instead, here is the Apostle Paul on Original Sin. Does this resonate with you?

Romans 5:
12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—
13 To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law. . . . .

15 But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16 Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!

Blessings.

 

[St. SteVen]

... here is the Apostle Paul on Original Sin. Does this resonate with you?

Romans 5:
12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—
13 To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law. . . . .

15 But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16 Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!

Absolutely. A favorite chapter.

Notice that the resolution for original sin lies in the hands of only the two Adams.
The following verses sum it up.

Romans 5:18-19 NIV
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

 

[Bob]

Ok, so now consider Romans 2:14-15

14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)

How are we to understand these versus? After all, Jesus told us that the law and the prophets effectively summarize the two great Commandments, Love God and Love Your Neighbor, and these gentiles are pagans.

(Paul also wrote, Romans 5:13 To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law.)

Blessings.

 

[Jack]

I don't know of anyone who obeys "The Law". Even tho many like to preach their version of "The Law".

 

[St. SteVen]

Ok, so now consider Romans 2:14-15

14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)

Another favorite of mine. Thanks.

How are we to understand these versus? After all, Jesus told us that the law and the prophets effectively summarize the two great Commandments, Love God and Love Your Neighbor, and these gentiles are pagans.

Actually, the other way around. The Two Greatest Commandments summarize the Law and the Prophets. (the books)
I launched a topic to help demystify these terms.
- The law
- The Law
- God's law
- Christ's law
Four different things.

Observations about the law, the Law, God's law, Christ's law - four different things

- What's the difference between the law and the Law? (capital L) - What's the difference between the law and God's law? - What's the difference between the law, God's law, and Christ's law? The law, the Law, God's law, Christ's law; four different things. Agree, or disagree? Points...

www.christianityboard.com

(Paul also wrote, Romans 5:13 To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law.)

Nevertheless, ...
death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command,
as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come. - Romans 5:14 NIV

 

[St. SteVen]

The Plan?
- Create humankind in your own image.
- Give them free-will to choose.
- Pay their sin debt.
- Send them to Hell for not accepting a free gift.

What's wrong with this picture?

 

[Behold]

What's wrong with this picture?

Your vile perspective of God, is mainly what is obviously wrong with you.
Look at your posts, and Threads,..whereby You attack the Bible, while you teach a Satanic Gospel (universalism) , and you continue to accuse God falsely becaue you dont know Him, as if you did, you'd have better sense then to enjoy doing all that on this forum, whenever you are here.
The only thing worse then a forum member like you, are Mods who understand what you are doing here, and allow it.

 

[St. SteVen]

Your vile perspective of God, is mainly what is obviously wrong with you.

That saw cuts both ways.

 

[Bob]

The Bible is a Sword and the Spirit of God is Almighty.

You might want to get a profound check up from the neck up, that would enable you to back off what you pursue here,.... while you still can.

Listen, you willingly offend the Spirit of God with your online pursuit here, ...and you seem ether oblivious or just..... "so what'"".
And both of those mindsets are going to find you one day, in a place, where you can't make it stop by saying "Im sorry God"/""""I didnt really mean it, even tho i did it over and over and over on the Forum"""".
"I was just having fun being a carnal Troll"""

God has a sense of Humor, but not when it comes to mockers.

"God IS NOT Mocked".

I'll tell you a truth......God has a wrench for every nut who wants to mock Him, and ive seen it happen, and you dont want that experience.
You're not prepared for that wrench.
Believe it.
See......You've had 2 years of trying to be as obnoxious to God as you can on this Forum and to any Real Christian, and that's a lot of Grace you've been given , which is why you're still doing it, not realizing what you are bringing upon yourself.
I would have never given you that much leeway or patience, but God is very long suffering.
I hope you hear me @St. SteVen .

Help me understand your point of view.

The original post had 4 statements and a question, “What is wrong with this picture?”

If you concur with the 4 statements, then the answer might could be, “There is nothing wrong!” perhaps followed by a statement concerning the infallibility of the God’s word.

If there is something wrong with the phrasing of the statements, please enlighten me how (I admit to having trouble understanding broad statements).

Since you live in Israel, you must be surrounded by people of many faiths, and you must know the best way to interact with those that disagree completely with Christians. Might that be the best approach here, with naive believers like myself? Calmly, With patience?

Peace.

 

[Lambano]

Steven, we need to get you one of these vintage 1968 buttons.

 

[Behold]

Help me understand your point of view.

My "Point of view" is to point out to anyone who is paying attention........that this particular member has continually posted offensive Threads and posts, for the last 2 yrs...... that purposely attack God's Character and Salvation, and also continually deny the credibiltiy of God's word.
He also teaches a Cross Denying Gospel, that claims that you dont have to be born and forgiven all your sin BEFORE you die, and you can still be saved after you die.
He also denies the existance of Hell as the place where unsaved unbeliever swho died here...= """John 3:36"""".....will end up immediately after they die.

So, i can't think of another fourm member who only comes here to sow discord and deceit DAILY, and the Mods just keep on looking the other way.

If you have any more questions about any of this, then just search this member's Threads, and find out for yourself what he's actually trying to do here on this forum.