The Third Woe

[Trekson]

Armageddon is actually the place of gathering, assembling the armies of the kings of the earth together. It refers to a big flat plain below the mount of Meggido in Israel.

The assembling will take place over a 45 days period - from the day that the sign of the Son of man appears in heaven until the day that Jesus descends to earth with His army of heaven.

-------------------------------------------------------------
Regarding Ezekiel 38-39 perhaps being post millennium....

Right after the destruction of the attackers on Israel and Jerusalem, by fire coming down from heaven from God, the devil, Satan, will be cast into the lake of fire

Following that destruction In Revelation 20:8-9, there is not 7 years, nor 7 months of cleaning up the land of Israel in that text. Unlike what is in Ezekiel 39. So Revelation 20:8-9 is not the same event as Ezekiel 38-39.

Instead, Revelation 20:11-15 takes place following the last rebellion the nations. Revelation 20:11-15 is about The Great White Throne judgment events. Not a cleaning up of the land of Israel.

First, Ez. 38-39 are not a combo, they are speaking of different times. in actual time 39 coming before 38. I'm not sure where you see the 45-75 days coming before His return because as I said, His return is "not" on the last day of the 70th week. The time between the sign of the son of man and Armageddon is a lot longer that the 45 days, but it's not pretrib long. Matt. 24:29-31 is speaking of the rapture, not the 2nd coming. Like I said, completely different wars.

 

[Trekson]

The 3 trumpets are the woes because of the events that begin when each is sounded.





Can't be since Jesus comes at the 7th trump. How could satan be cast here at the same time Jesus comes? Satan is cast here before the 6th trump/tribulation starts according to the verses in Rev 12.

Sorry, but the 7th trump is 'not" the last trump spoken of by Paul. The last trump is in the context of the Feast of Trumpets and God Himself will blow it, not an angel, Zech. 9:14.

 

[Trekson]

OK so you don't even understand the basics of what certain things symbolize in scripture, and you want to interpret the Book of Revelation. O-K. It shows:



The 7th trumpet and the 7th vial is the same - the Day of Judgment - just like the Israelites were only delivered through the dead sea when Pharaoh's armies were destroyed and all the other vials of judgment had already been poured out upon 'the beast' by then, while they were still in Egypt.

You have no idea of how to use sound biblical hermeneutic and you show yourself unable to interpret scripture with scripture.



Absolute nonsense. God's judge IS the Lamb. The beast's war is against the Lamb, and against the saints (Rev 13:7).



The words tribulation, distress, affliction are only used in the New Testament in reference to what the saints experience in the world at the hands of unbelievers.

Two of the only three times this tribulation is described as "great" tribulation in the New Testament, is in the Revelation where the second time it is referring to what the saints experienced,

and the first time it's referring to what Christ warns an adulterous congregation she will experience because He Himself will hand them over to great tribulation unless they repent.

The first time "great" tribulation is mentioned is in Matthew 24:21-22 where it is promised the days will be shortened for the elect's sake and the context of the passage is the tribulation Jesus said the saints will be handed over to at the end of the Age (nothing else - Jerusalem and the temple are not even mentioned by Jesus in Matthew or Mark's record of the Olivet discourse, nor is the temple mentioned in Luke's version).



If you are implying that I said that Jesus said in the Olivet Discourse the days of great tribulation it will be shortened for the elect's sake "to 42 months or 3.5 years",

then you are a liar and what you are doing is to read into what I only mentioned the Revelation saying about the reign of the beast.

If that's what you are doing it betrays dishonesty on your part, which is indicative of the fact that you do not know or understand what you are talking about.



I'm glad you realize that. Pity you show that you do not believe scripture by asserting that in scripture tribulation and great tribulation refers to what comes upon unbelievers by the hands of God (the Lamb) and the other refers to the wrath of God that will come upon unbelievers at the hand of God.



Just so you know, I know that you do not know what you are talking about and have chosen what parts of scripture you will believe and what parts you won't, and have decided what you will add to scripture - and therefore there is no point in me continuing in any discussion with you about your fallacies.

I will get back to you on this one, I'm running out of time at the moment, but for now you can depend on "hermeneutics", I'll depend on the HS for understanding as we are told to. He hasn't let me down. One will never learn the truth regarding prophecy if they depend on anything other than the HS!

 

[Davy]

Sorry, but the events within the 7th trump consists of everything between Rev. 11-15 until the first vial of Rev. 16.

There is nothing written in the Revelation 13 Chapter about the sounding of the 7th Trumpet, or any of the trumpets for that matter. Revelation 13 is describing the 2 different 'beast' concepts, a beast kingdom, and the beast king that will be over it.

Like I had said, my response to your post was that you claimed the last 3 Trumpet-Woe periods were the subject of Rev.13, which is not true. Nor is what you also said about Rev.12:12 mentioning a trumpet when it does not.

You simply are CONFUSED, and mostly reading into (adding) to the Scriptures.

 

[Davy]

Sorry, but the 7th trump is 'not" the last trump spoken of by Paul. The last trump is in the context of the Feast of Trumpets and God Himself will blow it, not an angel, Zech. 9:14.

But the "last trump" Paul mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15:52 is....... the final 7th Trumpet. (There is no 8th trumpet written of in Revelation.)

The trumpets given in Christ's Book of Revelation DO NOT represent the Feast of Trumpets.

Seven trumpets sounding have more to do with the fall of Jericho in Joshua 6 than with the Feast of Trumpets. With the Feast of Trumpets, we are not told it involved only 'seven' trumpets being blown, but many.

 

[Davy]

Sorry, but the events within the 7th trump consists of everything between Rev. 11-15 until the first vial of Rev. 16.

You apparently are not aware that the 7 SIGNS Lord Jesus gave in His Olivet discourse of Matthew 24 and Mark 13 are... the SEALS of Revelation 6.

Thus Revelation is outlining only 7 main SIGNS, but giving more details with 21 total events. This means the 7 Seals, 7 Trumpets, and 7 Vials all parallel each other. They do not all occur in the order that John was given to see their events and write them down.

The 6th Seal, and 7th Trumpet, and 7th Vial, are all timed together, in parallel. This is clearly shown by the type of events given with each one.

 

[Trekson]

There is nothing written in the Revelation 13 Chapter about the sounding of the 7th Trumpet, or any of the trumpets for that matter. Revelation 13 is describing the 2 different 'beast' concepts, a beast kingdom, and the beast king that will be over it.

Like I had said, my response to your post was that you claimed the last 3 Trumpet-Woe periods were the subject of Rev.13, which is not true. Nor is what you also said about Rev.12:12 mentioning a trumpet when it does not.

You simply are CONFUSED, and mostly reading into (adding) to the Scriptures.

It doesn't have to say anything about the 7th trump to be part of it's contents. We are told when the 5th trump ends and when the 6th trump ends, we are not told when the 7th trump ends, however, if we follow the past, the 7th seal revealed the first trump, so it should follow that the 7th trump opens the 1st vial and if that is the case, which it is, then everything between is part of the 7th trump. With that said, between cps. 11-15 are some chapters that are a pause to the sequence to add additional information about things that have already been revealed.

 

[Trekson]

But the "last trump" Paul mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15:52 is....... the final 7th Trumpet. (There is no 8th trumpet written of in Revelation.)

The trumpets given in Christ's Book of Revelation DO NOT represent the Feast of Trumpets.

Seven trumpets sounding have more to do with the fall of Jericho in Joshua 6 than with the Feast of Trumpets. With the Feast of Trumpets, we are not told it involved only 'seven' trumpets being blown, but many.

Sorry but the last trump and the 7th trump are simply not the same. Yes, the 7th trump is the last in the sequence of the 7 but the 7 trumpets have nothing to w/ the feast of trumpets. The first four spring feasts were types of what Christ would accomplish during his first advent, the last three fall feasts are types of what will happen leading up to and immediately after His second advent. Maybe you just haven't studied that topic yet because it should be very enlightening, especially when you understand this truism: the rapture/resurrection is for the church, the 2nd coming is for Israel!

 

[Trekson]

You apparently are not aware that the 7 SIGNS Lord Jesus gave in His Olivet discourse of Matthew 24 and Mark 13 are... the SEALS of Revelation 6.

Thus Revelation is outlining only 7 main SIGNS, but giving more details with 21 total events. This means the 7 Seals, 7 Trumpets, and 7 Vials all parallel each other. They do not all occur in the order that John was given to see their events and write them down.

The 6th Seal, and 7th Trumpet, and 7th Vial, are all timed together, in parallel. This is clearly shown by the type of events given with each one.

That's simply not true, but I do agree that the seals parallel Matt. 24, but that is where the comparison ends. Christ is simply giving us more information to the prophecy given in Matt. 24 about the trumps and vials. One can simply read them and tell they are not the same. Yes, there are some similarities but the very changes in severity is what makes them separate from each other.

 

[Douggg]

But the "last trump" Paul mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15:52 is....... the final 7th Trumpet. (There is no 8th trumpet written of in Revelation.)

Okay, we are talking about the last trumpet as it pertains to the rapture/resurrection event, correct ?

1Corinthians15:
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

So those verses are referring to the resurrection/rapture event. Let's go to the resurrection/rapture verses...

1Thessalonians4:
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Next, let's go to Revelation and when John was called up to heaven....

Revelation 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

So here is what is going to happen, regarding the resurrection/rapture.

It will be Jesus's voice that will be the last trump - by which the dead in Christ will rise first, then the living in Christ will be changed.

Jesus, as He circles the earth, will be shouting - "come forth, come up hither" - as the dead in Christ come forth from the dust of the earth and the living in Christ changed in the twinkling of an eye. Joining together, to meet the Lord in the air. And taken with Him to heaven.

 

[Douggg]

@Davy,

Do you remember this one, ...Jesus speaking ....and then with a loud voice....

John 11:43 And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.

 

[Trekson]

OK so you don't even understand the basics of what certain things symbolize in scripture, and you want to interpret the Book of Revelation. O-K. It shows:



The 7th trumpet and the 7th vial is the same - the Day of Judgment - just like the Israelites were only delivered through the dead sea when Pharaoh's armies were destroyed and all the other vials of judgment had already been poured out upon 'the beast' by then, while they were still in Egypt.

You have no idea of how to use sound biblical hermeneutic and you show yourself unable to interpret scripture with scripture.



Absolute nonsense. God's judge IS the Lamb. The beast's war is against the Lamb, and against the saints (Rev 13:7).



The words tribulation, distress, affliction are only used in the New Testament in reference to what the saints experience in the world at the hands of unbelievers.

Two of the only three times this tribulation is described as "great" tribulation in the New Testament, is in the Revelation where the second time it is referring to what the saints experienced,

and the first time it's referring to what Christ warns an adulterous congregation she will experience because He Himself will hand them over to great tribulation unless they repent.

The first time "great" tribulation is mentioned is in Matthew 24:21-22 where it is promised the days will be shortened for the elect's sake and the context of the passage is the tribulation Jesus said the saints will be handed over to at the end of the Age (nothing else - Jerusalem and the temple are not even mentioned by Jesus in Matthew or Mark's record of the Olivet discourse, nor is the temple mentioned in Luke's version).



If you are implying that I said that Jesus said in the Olivet Discourse the days of great tribulation it will be shortened for the elect's sake "to 42 months or 3.5 years",

then you are a liar and what you are doing is to read into what I only mentioned the Revelation saying about the reign of the beast.

If that's what you are doing it betrays dishonesty on your part, which is indicative of the fact that you do not know or understand what you are talking about.



I'm glad you realize that. Pity you show that you do not believe scripture by asserting that in scripture tribulation and great tribulation refers to what comes upon unbelievers by the hands of God (the Lamb) and the other refers to the wrath of God that will come upon unbelievers at the hand of God.



Just so you know, I know that you do not know what you are talking about and have chosen what parts of scripture you will believe and what parts you won't, and have decided what you will add to scripture - and therefore there is no point in me continuing in any discussion with you about your fallacies.

Your quote: OK so you don't even understand the basics of what certain things symbolize in scripture, and you want to interpret the Book of Revelation. O-K. It shows:
My answer: The use of symbolism in Rev. is quite minimal. Most should be taken literally.

Your Quote: The 7th trumpet and the 7th vial is the same - the Day of Judgment -
You have no idea of how to use sound biblical hermeneutic and you show yourself unable to interpret scripture with scripture.
My answer: Trying to force symbolism in Rev. in areas where it doesn’t belong and as you show creates a great deal of confusion, but you’re not alone.

Your Quote: Absolute nonsense. God's judge IS the Lamb. The beast's war is against the Lamb, and against the saints (Rev 13:7).

My answer: Rev. 6:17 speaks of the upcoming trumpet judgments being called “the wrath of the Lamb”. Rev. 16:1 speaks of the upcoming vials and calls them “the wrath of God.” Since scripture speaks of them differently, then so should we.
Trekson said:
Wrath and tribulation are two completely different things.


Your Quote: I'm glad you realize that. Pity you show that you do not believe scripture by asserting that in scripture tribulation and great tribulation refers to what comes upon unbelievers by the hands of God (the Lamb) and the other refers to the wrath of God that will come upon unbelievers at the hand of God.
My Answer: I never said anything of the sort. Try reading a little slower and you might stop jumping to false conclusions!
Trekson said:
Just so you know, there is still a lot left after the 7th trump.

Your Quote:Just so you know, I know that you do not know what you are talking about and have chosen what parts of scripture you will believe and what parts you won't, and have decided what you will add to scripture - and therefore there is no point in me continuing in any discussion with you about your fallacies.

My answer: Your hostility and unchristlike behavior isn’t warranted. It is quite possible to disagree and still be gentlemanly about it. I’ve been studying Rev. for over 40 yrs. and believe it or not I have learned somethings and most folks that disagree just haven’t dug deep enough yet. You are just as likely to be wrong as anyone else is. None of us have 100% of the truth, but combined we just might. However, it seems the church prefers to fight over the top shiny layers of prophecy w/o bothering to connect the dots to the prophetic narrative as a whole.

 

[Davy]

It doesn't have to say anything about the 7th trump to be part of it's contents.

Revelation 13 is what our discussion is about, and I refuse your bait with trying to leave that Chapter with what you originally claimed.

Revelation 13 only describes... the two beasts, and does NOT include the sounding of 'any' trumpets, period.

And of course the manifesting of that Revelation 13:1 world beast political system, and the Revelation 13:11 second beast that will play Jesus, appearing as The Lamb (Jesus) but speaking as the dragon, all do... happen within last few trumpets, seals, and vials. Yet they are not specifically mentioned in that Revelation 13 Chapter, and that is my point. And why you are being hard-headed about that point, who knows, but I'm done discussing it.

 

[Davy]

Okay, we are talking about the last trumpet as it pertains to the rapture/resurrection event, correct ?

1Corinthians15:
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

So those verses are referring to the resurrection/rapture event. Let's go to the resurrection/rapture verses...

1Thessalonians4:
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The 1 Thessalonians 4:13-16 verses are not... about a rapture. Instead, that part is about those who have already died and metaphorically sleep in Jesus are already with Him, and Jesus brings those with Him when He comes. They aren't raptured, for like Paul said in 2 Cor.5, to be absent from the body is to be present with The Lord.

Only the 1 Thessalonians 4:17 verse is about the "caught up" event of the saints still alive on earth when Jesus comes. They are caught up to the "air" (Greek aer, which points to the Breath of Life spiritual body). These are the saints Paul was pointing to that are changed to their spiritual bodies on earth at the "last trump", as the twinkling of an eye. They go with Lord Jesus as He descends to the Mount of Olives east of Jerusalem, on earth where He will reign from.

Next, let's go to Revelation and when John was called up to heaven....

No, let's not go to that false idea from Pre-trib Rapturists, for John's spirit is what was suddenly "in the Spirit" so he could pass the visions of Christ's Revelation given him to the Churches. John didn't have to go anywhere to experience that, nor did Isaiah in Isaiah 6, nor did Ezekiel. And in 2 Cor.12, Paul was actually speaking of himself being 'caught up' to the third heaven, meaning his spirit inside his flesh body was caught up to have that experience. Their flesh body was never 'changed' to the "spiritual body" in order to experience that. So no, Revelation 1:10 is NOT an example of being raptured to Heaven.

 

[Zao is life]

My answer: Your hostility and unchristlike behavior isn’t warranted. It is quite possible to disagree and still be gentlemanly about it.

It's also quite possible to disagree regarding any idea being added to scripture while refraining from the unChristlike behavior of implying that someone - in this case myself (for example) - said that the days of great tribulation mentioned in Matthew 24:21-22 will be "shortened to 3.5 years for the elect's sake".

You ought not to claim those you are talking to said things that they did not say. It's unChristlike.

1. Scripture says the beast will reign for 42 months (Rev 13:5).
2. Scripture says the beast will make war against the saints and will overcome them (Rev 13:7).
3. Scripture says that the beast will open his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven (Rev 13:6).
4. Jesus said that when the gospel has been preached in all the world as a witness to all nations, the end will come, and His followers will be handed over to tribulation and killed, being hated of all nations for His name's sake. (Matt 24:9-14).
5. Jesus said that when His followers see - standing in the holy place - "the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet" then those who are in Judea should flee to the mountains, and - using the same language used by Luke in Luke 17:26-37 regarding the end of the age and return of Christ - He also said things like "Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house" (Matt 24:17), and "two will be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left" (Matt 24:40), etc.

Therefore:

IF that period is speaking about something that will take place during the same 42 month reign of the beast mentioned in Rev 13, then obviously for the elect's sake those days of their great tribulation will be shortened - but Jesus did not say "by how much" those days will be shortened (and I never claimed He did).

6. Paul said that the Father "has set a day on which He is going to judge the world in righteousness, by a man whom he designated, having provided proof to everyone by raising him from the dead.".
7. Jesus said that the Father "has granted the Son authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of Man." (John 5:27), saying that "a time is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and will come out - the ones who have done what is good to the resurrection resulting in life, and the ones who have done what is evil to the resurrection resulting in condemnation." (John 5:28-29).
8. Jesus said that when He returns, all nations will be gathered before Him for judgment, giving us a very clear picture of this (Matthew 25:41-46).
9. John wrote that when the seventh trumpet sounded, he heard loud voices in heaven saying: "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will reign for ever and ever",

and at the same time John saw the twenty-four elders who are seated on their thrones before God threw themselves down with their faces to the ground and worshiped God with these words:

"We give you thanks, Lord God, the All-Powerful, the one who is and who was, because you have taken your great power and begun to reign. The nations were enraged, but your wrath has come, and the time has come for the dead to be judged, and the time has come to give to your servants, the prophets, their reward, as well as to the saints and to those who revere your name, both small and great, and the time has come to destroy those who destroy the earth."

10. Paul taught that "we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad." (2 Cor 5:10; Romans 14:10).

There is NO indication in scripture that God will judge anyone by anyone except by Jesus (God the Lamb).

-- All of which means and proves biblically that you have added the idea you are expressing in this thread to scripture, and want to convince us that scripture conforms to your addition.

Scripture DOES NOT conform to anyone's ideas that they add to scripture.

I’ve been studying Rev. for over 40 yrs. and believe it or not I have learned somethings and most folks that disagree just haven’t dug deep enough yet.

Just a little longer than me then - but the length of time you or me or anyone else has been studying scripture does not qualify anything you or I or anyone else says when what you say is easily proved to be your own idea which has been added to scripture

- and EVERYONE believes He has come to His understanding by the Holy Spirit - including ALL those who disagree with you.

No matter how long you have been studying scripture, you're a far way from being mature enough to KNOW to have the Christlike humility when you discuss scripture with anyone else that it is YOU who could be wrong about what you are saying and THOSE WHO DISAGREE WITH YOU who may be correct

- the very fact that you appeal to what you appeal to above proves that you do not have the HUMILITY which is a prerequisite to a proper understanding of God's Word

- which is why you fail to apply this below to yourself, instead appealing to how long you have been studying the subjects you are talking about, and appealing (as you did earlier) to the Holy Spirit:

The very fact that you decided to debate against what I said by claiming or implying that I said something I had not said, was already indicative of the above facts, and that you have not applied to yourself what you say below:

You are just as likely to be wrong as anyone else is. None of us have 100% of the truth, but combined we just might. However, it seems the church prefers to fight over the top shiny layers of prophecy w/o bothering to connect the dots to the prophetic narrative as a whole.

PS - ALL those who genuinely believe in Jesus have the Holy Spirit - including ALL those who disagree with you.

So now I'm prepared to start over without the argument - if you will drop trying to put the blame on me for your own unChrislike behavior by making a post that instead of apologizing, shifts the blame for the argument you started, onto me.

 

[Douggg]

Only the 1 Thessalonians 4:17 verse is about the "caught up" event of the saints still alive on earth when Jesus comes. They are caught up to the "air" (Greek aer, which points to the Breath of Life spiritual body). These are the saints Paul was pointing to that are changed to their spiritual bodies on earth at the "last trump", as the twinkling of an eye. They go with Lord Jesus as He descends to the Mount of Olives east of Jerusalem, on earth where He will reign from.

No, not the post-trib yoyo up and right back down theory.

1Thessalonians 4:13-17 is the resurrection/rapture event. In verse 14, God will bring the souls of Christians who have died in the past from heaven with Jesus, as He comes to resurrect their bodies that have turned to the dust of the earth. Their souls will be reunited with their resurrected everlasting, glorified bodes.

It will be Jesus's voice that will be the last trump - by which the dead in Christ will rise first, then the living in Christ will be changed.
`

 

[Trekson]

Revelation 13 is what our discussion is about, and I refuse your bait with trying to leave that Chapter with what you originally claimed.

Revelation 13 only describes... the two beasts, and does NOT include the sounding of 'any' trumpets, period.

And of course the manifesting of that Revelation 13:1 world beast political system, and the Revelation 13:11 second beast that will play Jesus, appearing as The Lamb (Jesus) but speaking as the dragon, all do... happen within last few trumpets, seals, and vials. Yet they are not specifically mentioned in that Revelation 13 Chapter, and that is my point. And why you are being hard-headed about that point, who knows, but I'm done discussing it.

I'm sorry you're having difficulty understanding that part of prophecy.

 

[Trekson]

Your quote: in this case myself (for example) - said that the days of great tribulation mentioned in Matthew 24:21-22 will be "shortened to 3.5 years for the elect's sake".’

My answer: I never said or claimed that you said that about the duration of the GT, please read it again, some people do actually believe that but you may have assumed I was speaking of you however, I was generalizing.

Your quote: 1. Scripture says the beast will reign for 42 months (Rev 13:5).
2. Scripture says the beast will make war against the saints and will overcome them (Rev 13:7).
3. Scripture says that the beast will open his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven (Rev 13:6).

My answer: First, points 2 and 3 should be reversed because when in their proper order it shows that verse 5 is ‘not” directly connected to vs. 7. The beast and the dragon are two different entities. The dragon will “continue” what the beast was doing for 42 months. During the dragon’s 42 months he will have a lot on his plate but only “part” of that will be vss. 7-10 and most of that will be done by minions. So, this is “not” saying he will persecute the church for 42 months. There is no time duration given for those verses but the persecution of the church actually begins earlier than that. A lot of folks don’t stop hard enough to pay attention to the actual details.

Your quote: 9. John wrote that when the seventh trumpet sounded, he heard loud voices in heaven saying: "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will reign for ever and ever", and at the same time John saw the twenty-four elders who are seated on their thrones before God threw themselves down with their faces to the ground and worshiped God with these words: "We give you thanks, Lord God, the All-Powerful, the one who is and who was, because you have taken your great power and begun to reign. The nations were enraged, but your wrath has come, and the time has come for the dead to be judged, and the time has come to give to your servants, the prophets, their reward, as well as to the saints and to those who revere your name, both small and great, and the time has come to destroy those who destroy the earth."
10. Paul taught that "we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad." (2 Cor 5:10; Romans 14:10).

My answer: Much of what is said after the 7th trump are angels ‘speaking forward in faith” about the very near fulfillment that actually isn’t happening at that minute, Heb. 11:1 “faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen” because Christ doesn’t receive the kingdoms until “after” Armageddon.
Your quote:There is NO indication in scripture that God will judge anyone by anyone except by Jesus (God the Lamb).

My answer: Most of the time when the bible says “God”, it is talking about the Father, but we have these two scriptures: Rev. 20:4a “And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them:”, 12a “And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God;”

Your quote: No matter how long you have been studying scripture, you're a far way from being mature enough to KNOW to have the Christlike humility when you discuss scripture with anyone else that it is YOU who could be wrong about what you are saying and THOSE WHO DISAGREE WITH YOU who may be correct

My answer: When I disagree, 99% of the time I do it w/ grace, unlike yourself, but I am human and sometimes I’m nat as graceful as I can be.

Your Quote: The very fact that you decided to debate against what I said by claiming or implying that I said something I had not said, was already indicative of the above facts, and that you have not applied to yourself what you say below:

My answer: This is what is sad, is that you got your knickers in a knot over something that WAS NEVER SAID OR IMPLIED! Did you read it again like I asked? Please post what you took offense to.

 

[Davy]

No, not the post-trib yoyo up and right back down theory.

The Yo-Yo theory is what you are pushing with a false Pre-trib Rapture doctrine that was first preached in a Christian church in 1830's Britain by John Nelson Darby. It says Jesus raptures the Church to Heaven prior to the trib, then returns with them after the trib, which is NOT written. That's definitely a Yo-Yo.

Post-trib, which is what Jesus revealed is the timing of His coming to gather His Church, is about His only other coming AFTER the trib, and is about His gathering of His saints on His way to Jerusalem on earth, and NOT up in Heaven. He is coming back to stay, right here on earth at Jerusalem, which is where He and His elect will reign over all nations from.

Thus you are all MIXED UP, and following men's word, and not God's Word.

1Thessalonians 4:13-17 is the resurrection/rapture event.

It is NOT about a rapture. The word 'rapture' isn't even in The Bible manuscripts. It comes from a Latin version for the Greek word harpazo, which means to seize, and which is translated in the KJV as "caught up." The "caught up" event is written in 1 Thess.4:17, NOT 1 Thess.4:13-16.

The 'asleep' saints that have already died in Christ ARE NOT STILL IN GRAVES OUT IN THE BACK YARD! They are with Jesus right now! This Apostle Paul showed in 2 Corinthians 5 when he said to be absent from the body (flesh body) is to be present with The Lord (2 Cor.5:6-8). And Ecclesiastes 12:5-7 reveals when our flesh body dies, it goes back to the earth where it came from, but our spirit (spirit body with soul) goes back to God Who gave it.

Why can't you follow Bible Scripture as written instead of trying to change it?

In verse 14, God will bring the souls of Christians who have died in the past from heaven with Jesus, as He comes to resurrect their bodies that have turned to the dust of the earth.

The 1 Thess.4:14 verse says what I've been saying above...

1 Thess 4:14
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him.
KJV

WHERE is Lord Jesus coming from in the above? From Heaven. That MUST mean those asleep saints are ALREADY THERE IN HEAVEN WITH HIM! That is HOW He will be able to bring them with Him.

And it means if you believe when Lord Jesus' flesh body died, He was raised from the dead, then those asleep saints also when their flesh died, they then rose from the dead too. That is why Peter spoke of the "spirits in prison" of 1 Peter 3, which Jesus during His resurrection went and preached The Gospel to. In 1 Peter 4, he even said The Gospel was preached to the dead so they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. We have another body ya know, already existing in our flesh shell, a body made up of spirit; Paul showed that in 2 Corinthians 5 also.

Their souls will be reunited with their resurrected everlasting, glorified bodes.

NOPE. That's a fabrication by the false Pre-trib rapture school.

Our "spiritual body" is NOT MADE OF EARTHLY MATTER. It is a body made up of spirit from that other dimension of Spirit. There is NO resurrection of the flesh when Jesus comes, ONLY the "change" at the "last trump" of those still ALIVE ON EARTH to their "spiritual body" when Jesus comes. (1 Corinthians 15:52-54)

 

[Davy]

I'm sorry you're having difficulty understanding that part of prophecy.

Oh... I'm definitely not having difficulty with it, nor with following the Revelation 9 through 11 Chapters which gives the events of the LAST THREE TRUMPET-WOE PERIODS.


5th Trumpet - 1st Woe Period:

1. The angel ("star fallen from heaven", i.e., Satan, the angel of the bottomless pit) opens up the pit of hell with smoke coming out.
2. Description of the locusts rising out of the pit; the locusts originally warned about in the Book of Joel.
3. The locusts are shown to 'sting' like a scorpion only those NOT sealed with God's Seal.
4. The locusts are not allowed to hurt any green thing.
5. The locusts are like an army riding horses to battle, with the teeth of lions, but the faces of men, similar description given in Joel.
6. They have a king over them which is Satan, the angel of the bottomless pit.

All those above events happen WITHIN that 5th Trumpet - 1st Woe Period of Time.

Likewise, all the events written WITHIN the 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe happen WITHIN its Period. With the 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe, we see the existences of the new temple in Jerusalem, and the Jews that worship within, with the Gentiles treading the holy city for 42 months; and God's "two witnesses" coming to Jerusalem to prophesy against the beast for 1260 days (that same 42 month period given in days instead). Only once the "two witnesses" finish their 1260 days Testimony are they killed by the beast king who ascends out of the bottomless pit (i.e., Satan), with their dead bodies left laying in the plaza of Jerusalem for three and one half days, does the 7th Trumpet - 3rd Woe Period come, which is about Jesus' return and gathering of His saints.

And then the 7th Trumpet - 3rd Woe is about the events that happen with Christ's RETURN.

Revelation 10 is parenthetical, which means like a musical rest, a break in the description of events, so as to given a bit of other information, like when the 7th angel sounds, ALL Bible prophecy for this present world will be over.