Apostle Paul's Temple of God

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covenantee

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That's all the resource you have, OUTSIDE THE BIBLE SUPPOSITIONAL evidence.
Thanks for the guffaws. :laughing:

Yes, history is suppositional to a Darby/Scofield/Jesuit dispensational futurist.

Sozomen's account is of a non-Darby/Scofield/Jesuit verifiable historical event which was consistent with God's judgment and punishment upon blasphemous apostates.

You have nothing and no one except speculation, presumption, conjecture, papistry, futurism, imagination, hallucination, Darby, Scofield, Jesuits, et al.

Whom to believe?

1. You
2. Sozomen

Need a hint? :laughing:
 
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Davy

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Just leave what you don't understand for those who do. :laughing:

I DID... leave it to others to show what I've been covering from The Bible is what it means about a literal stone temple Paul was talking about... but YOU REJECTED even what the early Church father Irenaeus said, and the fact that the Bible scholars Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown were the ones who were quoting Irenaeus about Paul meaning a literal stone temple in 2 Thessalonians 2:4!

"2 Thessalonians 2:4
The temple of God ... that he is God. 'He will reign a time, times, and half a time' (Dan 7:25) - i.e., three and a half years-and sit in the temple at Jerusalem (Ezek 37:26; 41; 42:1-44:31); 'then the Lord shall come from heaven and cast him into the lake of fire, and bring to the saints the times of their reigning, the seventh day of hallowed rest, and give to Abraham the promised inheritance' (Irenaeus, 'Adver. Haer.,' v. 30. 4).
(from Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown Commentary, Electronic Database. Copyright © 1997-2014 by Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)"
 

covenantee

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I DID... leave it to others to show what I've been covering from The Bible is what it means about a literal stone temple Paul was talking about... but YOU REJECTED even what the early Church father Irenaeus said, and the fact that the Bible scholars Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown were the ones who were quoting Irenaeus about Paul meaning a literal stone temple in 2 Thessalonians 2:4!

"2 Thessalonians 2:4
The temple of God ... that he is God. 'He will reign a time, times, and half a time' (Dan 7:25) - i.e., three and a half years-and sit in the temple at Jerusalem (Ezek 37:26; 41; 42:1-44:31); 'then the Lord shall come from heaven and cast him into the lake of fire, and bring to the saints the times of their reigning, the seventh day of hallowed rest, and give to Abraham the promised inheritance' (Irenaeus, 'Adver. Haer.,' v. 30. 4).
(from Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown Commentary, Electronic Database. Copyright © 1997-2014 by Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)"
I explained why Irenaeus said what he did, but unsurprisingly you don't understand it.

If Irenaeus had lived at the time of the Reformation, he would have understood 2 Thessalonians 2 in the same way as every other Reformer.

So to reiterate,
Just leave what you don't understand for those who do. :laughing:
 
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covenantee

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I DID... leave it to others to show what I've been covering from The Bible is what it means about a literal stone temple Paul was talking about... but YOU REJECTED even what the early Church father Irenaeus said, and the fact that the Bible scholars Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown were the ones who were quoting Irenaeus about Paul meaning a literal stone temple in 2 Thessalonians 2:4!

"2 Thessalonians 2:4
The temple of God ... that he is God. 'He will reign a time, times, and half a time' (Dan 7:25) - i.e., three and a half years-and sit in the temple at Jerusalem (Ezek 37:26; 41; 42:1-44:31); 'then the Lord shall come from heaven and cast him into the lake of fire, and bring to the saints the times of their reigning, the seventh day of hallowed rest, and give to Abraham the promised inheritance' (Irenaeus, 'Adver. Haer.,' v. 30. 4).
(from Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown Commentary, Electronic Database. Copyright © 1997-2014 by Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)"
Why are you citing the JFB commentary? It is preceded, by more than a century, by the much more widely recognized and acclaimed Matthew Henry commentary.

Matthew Henry on 2 Thessalonians 2:4:

"As God, he sits in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. As God was in the temple of old, and worshipped there, and is in and with his church now, so the antichrist here mentioned is some usurper of God’s authority in the Christian church, who claims divine honours; and to whom can this better apply than to the bishops of Rome, to whom the most blasphemous titles have been given, as Dominus Deus noster papa—Our Lord God the pope; Deus alter in terrâ—Another God on earth; Idem est dominium Dei et papae—The dominion of God and the pope is the same"
 
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Davy

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I explained why Irenaeus said what he did, but unsurprisingly you don't understand it.

If Irenaeus had lived at the time of the Reformation, he would have understood 2 Thessalonians 2 in the same way as every other Reformer.

So to reiterate,
Just leave what you don't understand for those who do. :laughing:

I gave you 4 witnesses, but you rejected them all.

And no doubt the only reason you are not yet saying the same things about Bible scholars Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown who quoted Irenaeus is because you haven't found a Jewish scholar to refute them.

And furthermore... do those in Christ really NEED... confirmation from men that Paul was NOT pointing to the Temple of The Spirit in 2 Thessalonians 2:4?

NO, not really, because per Paul in Ephesians 2 revealed the foundation of the Temple of The Spirit is made up of the Apostles and prophets, with Jesus Christ as its Cornerstone, which means it CANNOT BE CORRUPTED by anyone that is an apostate. Paul also confirmed this in the 1 Corinthians 3:16-17 Scripture...

1 Cor 3:16-17
16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17
If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
KJV

That means NO man can corrupt the spiritual Temple of God. Not even a pope!

Therefore, the false Jews you are following looks like they don't really know what all The New Testament Scriptures state.
 
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covenantee

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I gave you 4 witnesses, but you rejected them all.

And no doubt the only reason you are not yet saying the same things about Bible scholars Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown who quoted Irenaeus is because you haven't found a Jewish scholar to refute them.

And furthermore... do those in Christ really NEED... confirmation from men that Paul was NOT pointing to the Temple of The Spirit in 2 Thessalonians 2:4?

NO, not really, because per Paul in Ephesians 2 revealed the foundation of the Temple of The Spirit is made up of the Apostles and prophets, with Jesus Christ as its Cornerstone, which means it CANNOT BE CORRUPTED by anyone that is an apostate. Paul also confirmed this in the 1 Corinthians 3:16-17 Scripture...

1 Cor 3:16-17
16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17
If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
KJV

That means NO man can corrupt the spiritual Temple of God. Not even a pope!

Therefore, the false Jews you are following looks like they don't really know what all The New Testament Scriptures state.
What's this? You don't believe in any "spiritual Temple of God". :laughing:

The only temple you believe in is your imaginary stone temple in Jerusalem where your imaginary antichrist sits. :laughing:.

Thanks for the guffaws. :laughing:

Why are you afraid of post 44? :laughing:
 

Davy

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BRETHREN IN CHRIST:
Doesn't anyone here wonder why Jews get so upset when anyone brings up the subject about the plan the Orthodox unbelieving Jews in today's Jerusalem have to build a 3rd stone temple in Jerusalem? Why... does that subject upset some folks?

I will tell you probably the main reason why; it's because God has ordained that the unbelievers in the world, including the unbelieving Jews especially, shall receive a hard lesson about Christ Jesus, and their rejection of Him. Apostle Paul in 2 Thess.2 called it "strong delusion" that God is sending the deceived. And Lord Jesus told the unbelieving Jews this...

John 5:43
43 I am come in My Father's name, and ye receive Me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
KJV


They will receive the coming false-Messiah, thinking he will be the true Messiah prophesied by the Old Testament prophets.

THE BUILDING OF THE TEMPLE IN JERUSALEM... is the GOAL of all Orthodox religious Jews and their main reason for wanting to re-establish their homeland back to the lands God promised their ancestors. The building of the temple and continuation of old covenant worship with animal sacrifices, is what they believe they are still 'bound' to today by God. They do not believe that Jesus of Nazareth is The Christ, The Messiah of foretold by God through His prophets. They are still waiting for Messiah to come.

In 70 A.D., the Roman army led by general Titus destroyed Jerusalem and the 2nd temple. The Jews were taken captive and removed from the land, and scattered, that event called the Diaspora. For centuries the Jews wandered through the nations like gypsies. The Christian nations demanded they convert to Christ or leave. Many did convert, while others fled from nation to nation. Yet the majority of the scattered Jews still remained in their religious beliefs that they are still bound by God to worship at Jerusalem per the old covenant, with a stone temple and sacrifices. In 1948, the nations gathered under the United Nations flag to vote on allowing the Jews to establish the nation of Israel again in the holy land. The U.N. would internationally control its borders and allotment of lands, as it still is to this day. The British had control of Jerusalem after defeating the Turks, with the Arabs as allies of the British. Thus the Arabs entered Jerusalem also, and had claims for Jerusalem. At present, the Arabs possess, by U.N. authority, a portion of Jerusalem, including control of the Temple Mount.
 
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Brakelite

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@Davy
“3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. ”
2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 KJV

This is the prime NT scripture upon which the dispensational Christians, and other Zionists and evangelicals, hang their collective hats. You have referenced this yourself several times. I dummy what you category you come under, it doesn't matter. But there is no other verse in the NT where there is any suggestion whatsoever of the idea than anyone, individual or institution, is going to take over a temple. This is it. This is THE verse.
Yet you are blind to the fact that Paul himself utterly discredits and excludes any possibility that this text is speaking of a third temple. And he does so in the very text itself with two very small but highly significant words.
of God.

... the temple of God...


once understood, it would be utterly blasphemous and a deep and dark insult to the blood of Christ to suggest that a third temple would belong to God and be an habitation for God's presence.
It's that simple.
 

Davy

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Yet you are blind to the fact that Paul himself utterly discredits and excludes any possibility that this text is speaking of a third temple. And he does so in the very text itself with two very small but highly significant words.

Now you well know Paul never claimed there won't be another stone temple built in Jerusalem. You have no Biblical foundation for insinuating such a fib.

of God.

... the temple of God...


once understood, it would be utterly blasphemous and a deep and dark insult to the blood of Christ to suggest that a third temple would belong to God and be an habitation for God's presence.
It's that simple.

That "temple of God" phrase does not... have to mean it is about Christ Church, the temple of The Spirit.

What Paul said in 2 Thess.2:4 actually proves... he was NOT... speaking of Christ's Church!

What is amazing is that you have totally... MISSED the fact that IF... Christ's Church is meant by that "temple of God" that "man of sin" would VIOLATE The Church by claiming to be GOD!

Rom 11:22
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness:
otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
KJV

Eph 2:20-22
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief corner stone;
21
In Whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In Whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
KJV


How then, can a FALSE-MESSIAH come and sit in Christ's Temple (His Church), in JERUSALEM, and proclaim himself as God, and over all that is worshiped, or that is called God??? Anyone trying to do that is simply CUT OFF from Christ's True Temple of The Spirit!

That is why Paul showed he was pointing to an EVIL "MAN OF SIN", working great signs and wonders to deceive, and proclaiming himself as God. How else can a "strong delusion" apply???? It HAS TO MEAN a literal JEWISH STONE TEMPLE built in Jerusalem for the fulfillment of the Daniel prophecy of a coming FALSE-MESSIAH to Jerusalem at the END of this world prior to Christ's return.
 

covenantee

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Now you well know Paul never claimed there won't be another stone temple built in Jerusalem. You have no Biblical foundation for insinuating such a fib.



That "temple of God" phrase does not... have to mean it is about Christ Church, the temple of The Spirit.

What Paul said in 2 Thess.2:4 actually proves... he was NOT... speaking of Christ's Church!

What is amazing is that you have totally... MISSED the fact that IF... Christ's Church is meant by that "temple of God" that "man of sin" would VIOLATE The Church by claiming to be GOD!

Rom 11:22
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness:
otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
KJV

Eph 2:20-22
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief corner stone;
21
In Whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In Whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
KJV


How then, can a FALSE-MESSIAH come and sit in Christ's Temple (His Church), in JERUSALEM, and proclaim himself as God, and over all that is worshiped, or that is called God??? Anyone trying to do that is simply CUT OFF from Christ's True Temple of The Spirit!

That is why Paul showed he was pointing to an EVIL "MAN OF SIN", working great signs and wonders to deceive, and proclaiming himself as God. How else can a "strong delusion" apply???? It HAS TO MEAN a literal JEWISH STONE TEMPLE built in Jerusalem for the fulfillment of the Daniel prophecy of a coming FALSE-MESSIAH to Jerusalem at the END of this world prior to Christ's return.
Paul's temples:

"naos" spiritual:

1 Corinthians 3:16
Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Greek

1 Corinthians 3:17
If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Greek

1 Corinthians 6:19
What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Greek

2 Corinthians 6:16
And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Greek

Ephesians 2:21-22
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Greek
22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

2 Thessalonians 2:4
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Greek

"eidóleion" physical:

1 Corinthians 8:10
For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol's temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols;
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Greek

"hieros/hieron" physical:

1 Corinthians 9:13
Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar?
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Greek
 

Brakelite

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Now you well know Paul never claimed there won't be another stone temple built in Jerusalem. You have no Biblical foundation for insinuating such a fib.



That "temple of God" phrase does not... have to mean it is about Christ Church, the temple of The Spirit.

What Paul said in 2 Thess.2:4 actually proves... he was NOT... speaking of Christ's Church!

What is amazing is that you have totally... MISSED the fact that IF... Christ's Church is meant by that "temple of God" that "man of sin" would VIOLATE The Church by claiming to be GOD!

Rom 11:22
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness:
otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
KJV

Eph 2:20-22
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief corner stone;
21
In Whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In Whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
KJV


How then, can a FALSE-MESSIAH come and sit in Christ's Temple (His Church), in JERUSALEM, and proclaim himself as God, and over all that is worshiped, or that is called God??? Anyone trying to do that is simply CUT OFF from Christ's True Temple of The Spirit!

That is why Paul showed he was pointing to an EVIL "MAN OF SIN", working great signs and wonders to deceive, and proclaiming himself as God. How else can a "strong delusion" apply???? It HAS TO MEAN a literal JEWISH STONE TEMPLE built in Jerusalem for the fulfillment of the Daniel prophecy of a coming FALSE-MESSIAH to Jerusalem at the END of this world prior to Christ's return.
Who said anything about a false Messiah? The man of sin is just that. The personification of lawlessness, the mystery of iniquity. The fulfillment of Daniel 7's little horn who thinks to change times and laws. God's laws.


As for 2 Thess. 2:4...
1.
Now we beseech you brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him, that ye be not troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of the Lord is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know what with-holdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way, and then shall that wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the Spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming: even him whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, and with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

2
And the Dragon gave him his power, his SEAT, and much authority." Revel. 13:2

The above verses are perhaps, alongside Daniel 7 and Revelation 13, the most significant texts in the entire word of God as to revealing the identity of the Antichrist of scripture.

When reading Daniel 7 and Revelation 13, and in contemplating the above, the reader cannot help but be impressed with the detail and amount of information given regarding the nature, the thoughts, beliefs and practices of this entity who from the beginnings of the Christian faith to the present time, has shed such a dark forbidding cloud over the true church. In these few short verses the apostle Paul has given his readers a clear and unambiguous signpost pointing directly to the rise of the man of sin, the son perdition. A signpost that he first revealed to the Thessalonian church in person, and reaffirmed in this letter. Bible scholars for centuries have agreed that the reason Paul was less than forthcoming in his letter in naming the ‘restrainer’ directly as he is commonly known, was because there was a very real danger involved in so doing. That danger coming from the restrainer himself, the Roman pagan empire who ruled the then known world at that time, and who, if upon reading this letter and realizing that Paul was here saying that their power was about to be swept away to make way for another, Paul would have been immediately arrested and charged, tried, and executed for sedition. Also, because the Thessalonians already knew who Paul was talking about, it was not necessary for Paul to risk naming Rome again.

Practically all the early commentators and church fathers were unanimous in their belief that Paul was referring to the empire of Rome in general, and to the emperors in particular. Let me provide a few quotes from those early church statesmen from their comments on this matter.

Let me start with Tertullian (160-240 A. D.):

“‘For the mystery of iniquity doth already work; only he who now hinders must hinder, until he be taken out of the way.’ What obstacle is there but the Roman state, the falling away of which, by being scattered into ten kingdoms, shall introduce Antichrist upon (its
own ruins)? ‘And then shall be revealed the wicked one.” “On the Resurrection of the Flesh,” chapter 24; Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. III, p. 563

(Author: There is some debate as to whether the ‘falling away’ referred to here is in reference to the empire, or the church. Some say one, some the other, while some would contend that it can apply equally to both. Either way, Tertullian was certain in his belief that the restrainer was the Roman Empire. That it was Rome itself that inhibited in some way the rise of the antichrist. This was generally accepted throughout the church at that time, and it was common for the church to pray to God that He would keep the Roman power intact in order to keep the antichrist to coming to power in their time. Interesting also is Tertullian’s reference to the ten kingdoms that would result from the break up of Rome. This is a direct reference to Daniel 7 and the ten horns that would grow from the 4th beast, Rome. The Antichrist, according to Bible scholars, was the 11th horn. Tertullian was using the historicist method of prophetic interpretation, that method which viewed prophecy as an historical unfolding throughout history from the time the prophecy was first given, and culminating at the second coming. This is significant when understanding Paul’s letter, because Paul is clear that the Antichrist would appear as soon as Rome moves aside, and that very same Antichrist would still be there to be judged at the second coming. Not futurist, not preterist, but a historicist approach, just like Tertullian.)

In yet another comment, Tertullian states: “The very end of all things threatening dreadful woes is only retarded by the continued existence of the Roman Empire.”

(“Apology,” chapter 32; Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. III, p. 43).

A little later Lactantius,. in the early fourth century wrote: “The subject itself declares that the fall and ruin of the world will shortly take place; except that while the city of Rome remains, it appears that nothing of this kind is to be feared. But when that capital of the world shall have fallen, and shall have begun to be a street, which the Sibyls (prophets) say shall come to pass, who can doubt that the end has now arrived to the affairs of men and the whole world? It is that city, that only, which still sustains all things.” (“The Divine Institutes,” book 7, chapter 25; Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. VII, p. 220).
 

Brakelite

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Also early in the fourth century Cyril of Jerusalem (318-386 A. D.)had this to say: “But this aforesaid Antichrist is to come when the times of the Roman Empire shall have been fulfilled, and the end of the world is drawing near. There shall rise up together ten kings of the Romans, reigning in different parts perhaps, but all about the same time; and after those an eleventh, the Antichrist, who by his magical craft shall seize upon the Roman power; and of the kings who reigned before him, ‘three he shall humble,’ and the remaining seven he shall keep in subjection to himself.” (Catechetical Lectures,” section 15, on II Thessalonians 2:4; Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, vol. VII, p. 108 [New York: The Christian Literature Company, 1895]).



(Author: Much could be said about this quote; he also is clearly linking the prophecy of Daniel to the text of Paul’s, agreeing with other eminent writers of his time that out of Rome would evolve ten kings, 3 of whom the antichrist would subdue. When the restrainer, Rome, was to be taken out of the way, and the horns of Daniel 7 arise, the antichrist would be revealed.)



Now I would present the testimony of Ambrose (died in 398): “After the falling or decay of the Roman Empire, Antichrist shall appear.” (Quoted in, Bishop Thomas Newton, Dissertations on the Prophecies, p. 463)……



….and Chrysostom (died in 407): “When the Roman Empire is taken out of the way, then he [the Antichrist] shall come. And naturally. For as long as the fear of this empire lasts, no one will willingly exalt himself, but when that is dissolved, he will attack the anarchy, and endeavor to seize upon the government both of man and of God.”



“Homily IV on 2 Thessalonians 2:6-9,” Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, vol. XIII, p. 389



[New York: Charles Scribner’s and Sons, 1905]…..



…and finally Jerome (died 420): “He that letteth is taken out of the way, and yet we do not realize that Antichrist is near.”



(Letter to Ageruchia, written about 409A. D. Letter 123, section 16; Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, vol. VI, p. 236



Jerome’s testimony is interesting. He admits and agrees with other early church fathers of his era that Rome was the restrainer, and had been removed in his (Jerome’s) lifetime. Yet it had not yet been made apparent who the power was that could definitively be called the Antichrist. Why? Because from Jerome’s perspective, he could not see all the signs of the Antichrist’s coming, as they had yet to be revealed in history. The capital of the empire had been removed to Constantinople, and the Gothic barbarian kings* were already well entrenched in ongoing battles and wars to decide who would rule over the territories not long since vacated by Rome, but the three horns to be subdued were still in power. When they were subdued, it would then be known by whose power they were done away, and the identity of Antichrist would be revealed.



I think it would be very helpful if I here provided a quote from the eminent Catholic historian, Cardinal Manning.



“Now the abandonment of Rome was the liberation of the pontiffs. Whatsoever claims to obedience the emperors may have made, and whatsoever compliance the Pontiff may have yielded, the whole previous relation, anomalous, and annulled again and again by the vices and outrages of the emperors, was finally dissolved by a higher power. The providence of God permitted a succession of irruptions, Gothic, Lombard, and Hungarian, to desolate Italy, and to efface from it every remnant of the empire.



The pontiffs found themselves alone, the sole fountains of order, peace, law, and safety. And from the hour of this providential liberation, when, by a divine intervention, the chains fell off from the hands of the successor of St. Peter, as once before from his own, no sovereign has ever reigned in Rome except the Vicar of Jesus Christ.”



(Henry Edward Manning, The Temporal Power of The Vicar of Jesus Christ, Preface, pp. xxviii, xxix. London: Burns and Lambert, 1862).



Manning has clearly given an excellent summary of history which directly correlates with the prophecies of Daniel and Paul. While attributing the fall of Rome to God and the rise of the papacy to Him also, Manning seems oblivious to the fact that he is revealing the perfect fulfillment of the prophecy of Paul and Daniel. That when Rome fell, the ten nations arose, three were subdued, and the ultimate victor was the papacy! It was the papacy itself that the empire of Rome was restraining. It was the papacy that arose after the establishment of the ten horns. It was the papacy that had a major role in the subjugation of the 3 horns because being Arian in belief they were directly opposed to the rule of the pontiffs. It will be the papacy that will still be here at the second coming. Therefore it is the papacy which perfectly fulfils the criteria demanded of it in order to be identified as the Antichrist. And that my friends are precisely the reasons all non-Roman Bible commentators from the time of the 6th century on were almost unanimous in identifying the papacy as the man of sin.

The power who entered the church (the temple of God) and by claiming the power to forgive sin, and shut out of heaven whom he will, and claiming universal spiritual and temporal authority over all the earth, thus claiming the prerogatives of God, “opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.”



* The ten kings who vied for power as the Roman Empire disintegrated before them and from which 7 nations of modern Europe can trace their descent are known by most historians as being the Anglo-Saxons (Britain), the Allamanni (Germany), the Franks (France), the Lombards (first around the Danube then Italy), Visigoths (Spain), Burgundians (Burgundy/Switzerland)) and the Suevi (Portugal).



These seven of the ten Barbarian kingdoms were converted to Christianity and submitted to the authority of the Bishop of Rome. However, three of the kingdoms converted to Christianity but embraced the heretical teachings of Arius. Arius (who was presbyter in Alexandria around the year 320 A. D.) taught that ‘Christ was created out of nothing as the first and greatest of all creatures’, very similar to Jehovah Witness teachings of today. The teachings of Arius were condemned in two great church councils, Nicea (325 A. D.) and Constantinople (381 A. D.). These three Arian kingdoms were a threat to the supremacy of the Bishop of Rome [later called the Pope]. To make a long story short, these three kingdoms eventually were uprooted by the imperial power acting under the influence of the Bishop of Rome. The Ostrogoths (originally from Yugoslavia), by order of the emperor, dealt the heretical Heruli a devastating defeat in 493 A. D.



It happened like this: The Pope requested the emperor to do something about the unorthodox Heruli. In response, the emperor sent Theodoric, king of the Ostrogoths to do battle with Odoacer, king of the Heruli. Odoacer was slain by Theodoric and the Heruli disappeared from history. Then the Vandals were crushed (in 534 A. D.) by Belisarius, general of emperor Justinian’s armies. But there was one remaining horn which needed to be uprooted, and it was the most formidable of all: the Ostrogoths. After the Ostrogoths conquered the Heruli, they became extremely powerful. They were also Arians, so the Bishop of Rome [the Pope] implored Justinian to uproot the Ostrogoths. There were several battles between Belisarius and the Ostrogoths. The decisive battle, however, was in February of the year 538. The armies of Justinian, as well as the ravages of disease, decimated the armies of the Ostrogoths, they were expelled from Rome and in short order, disappeared from the historical scene in Europe.



There is some debate as to why the operations of the little horn should be restricted to the western hemisphere of the old Roman territories. The eastern portion of that empire was eventually taken by Islam, so the question is often asked, why cannot Islam be the Antichrist? I think that the following quote from the eminent Bible scholar and historian Sir Isaac Newton asa quoted by Thomas Newton, gives the answer.



“Antichrist, then (as the Fathers delight to call him), or the little horn, is to be sought among the ten kingdoms of the western Roman Empire. I say of the western Roman Empire, because that was properly the body of the fourth beast; Greece, and the countries which lay eastward of Italy belonged to the third beast; for the former beasts were still subsisting, though their dominion was taken away. ‘As concerning the rest of the beasts,’ saith Daniel, ‘they had their dominion taken away; yet their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.’ Daniel 7:12. ‘And therefore,’ as Sir Isaac Newton rightly infers, ‘all four beasts are still alive, though the dominion of the three first be taken away. The nations of Chaldea and Assyria are still the first beast. Those of Media and Persia are still the second beast. Those of Macedon, Greece and Thrace, Asia Minor, Syria, and Egypt, are still the third. And those of Europe, on this side of Greece, are still the fourth. Seeing therefore the body of the third beast is confined to the nations on this side the river Euphrates, and the body of the fourth beast is confined to the nations on this side of Greece; we are to look for all the four heads of the third beast among the nations on this side the river Euphrates; and for all the eleven horns of the fourth beast, among the nations on this side of Greece.” (Thomas Newton, Dissertations on the Prophecies, pp. 239, 240).
 
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Davy

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Who said anything about a false Messiah? The man of sin is just that. The personification of lawlessness, the mystery of iniquity. The fulfillment of Daniel 7's little horn who thinks to change times and laws. God's laws.

Apostle Paul in 2 Thess.2 said it, because he was referring to the same one Jesus was warning about in Matthew 24:23-26, which in the Greek is about a pseudo-Christ, which means 'false-Messiah'. The word in the Greek of Matthew 24:24 translated by the KJV translators as "false Christs" is actually singular pseudochristos. Dr. James Strong in his Strong's Exhaustive Concordance defined pseudochristos as 'a spurious Messiah'.

Lord Jesus said that false-Messiah will work great signs and wonders that IF it were possible, would deceive even His very elect. Apostle Paul in 2 Thess.2:9 referred to that miracle working by that "man of sin", showing he was pointing to the same pseudo-Christ in Jerusalem that Jesus warned of coming to Jerusalem to fulfill the "abomination of desolation" prophecy.

Now that you are caught up on that... and can't make any excuses that you don't know about that...
 
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Davy

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As for 2 Thess. 2:4...

The false-Messiah subject is not just about 2 Thess.2:4, it is about the whole section of 2 Thess.2:1 through 12.

2
And the Dragon gave him his power, his SEAT, and much authority." Revel. 13:2

The above verses are perhaps, alongside Daniel 7 and Revelation 13, the most significant texts in the entire word of God as to revealing the identity of the Antichrist of scripture.

The Revelation 13:1-2 verses refer to the BEAST KINGDOM that comes up out of the SEA of waters. It is NOT the Antichrist. It is his system of control over the earth. That's why it is defined as having TEN HORNS, which are ten kings, AND SEVEN HEADS, which are seven mountains or continents, AND TEN CROWNS, which are ten powers. In Revelation 17:15 Lord Jesus defined the 'waters' as meaning peoples, nations, multitudes, and tongues. It is silly to think that represents a singular person. You have wrongly used the pronouns like "his" and "him" in that Rev.13:1-3 section to define that 1st beast, which per the real signs given there is about a kingdom beast, a system the Antichrist will setup.

The actual Antichrist in that Revelation 13 Chapter begins at Revelation 13:11 which is about the "dragon", and he is called the "another beast", a second beast, which is about the beast king. The title "dragon" is another title for Satan himself per Rev.12:9. He (that "dragon", Satan) is also the subject of the Revelation 13:4 through 8 verses.

Look up what Hippolytus said about the coming Antichrist.
 

Brakelite

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Now you well know Paul never claimed there won't be another stone temple built in Jerusalem. You have no Biblical foundation for insinuating such a fib.
You are accusing me of lying by saying Paul affirmed there was to be no third temple? Where did I say that? What I am saying is that you have no foundation for creating an entire thesis on the belief that there is going to be one. Particularly when the temple Paul mentioned is the temple of God, with the man of sin abiding within it claiming to be God by pretending to practise prerogatives that belong only to God. Like forgiving sin. Just accept what Paul is saying at face value. If it isn't God's temple as stated, who's is it?
What is amazing is that you have totally... MISSED the fact that IF... Christ's Church is meant by that "temple of God" that "man of sin" would VIOLATE The Church by claiming to be GOD!
Exactly the point. But the mistake you are making is the Jesuit deception you have fallen for, that the antichrist is an individual. It isn't. It's a succession of individuals prediding over an institution that claims to have replaced Christ on earth. The true meaning of the word, anti-Christos.
Jesus warned of coming to Jerusalem to fulfill the "abomination of desolation" prophecy.
Did He? Jesus didn't say anything of the sort. The abomination that maketh desolate had a double application. Daniel warned of this. The first fulfillment came at the time of the destruction of the temple in 70ad. The abomination of desolation was the Roman army planting their idolatrous standards on holy ground. This is exactly the same as an apostate Roman Catholic Church sitting among God's people... the church the true temple of the Spirit of God... purporting to speak for all Christendom while promoting its own pagan dogmas and idolatrous practises, teaching as doctrine the commandments of men making meaningless the commandment of God.
Now that you are caught up on that... and can't make any excuses that you don't know about that...
That's arrogant to the extreme, oh,great source of all truth.
 
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Davy

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You are accusing me of lying by saying Paul affirmed there was to be no third temple? Where did I say that? What I am saying is that you have no foundation for creating an entire thesis on the belief that there is going to be one. Particularly when the temple Paul mentioned is the temple of God, with the man of sin abiding within it claiming to be God by pretending to practise prerogatives that belong only to God. Like forgiving sin. Just accept what Paul is saying at face value. If it isn't God's temple as stated, who's is it?

That is where you are so in error; a standing stone temple built by the orthodox Jews in Jerusalem for the end is a Biblical REQUIREMENT of prophecy from the Book of Daniel. Lord Jesus even quoted... that future prophecy from the Book of Daniel when He was giving the Signs of the End about the coming "great tribulation". You speaking against the 2 Thessalonians 2:4 verse, which is about that coming event of the Antichrist in Jerusalem setting up an IDOL "abomination of desolation" in a stone temple, shows you are pushing a political agenda against... The Word of God.


Matt 24:15-16
15 When ye therefore shall see
the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
16 Then let them which be in
Judaea flee into the mountains:
KJV


That "holy place" in "Judaea" means in JERUSALEM, at another STONE TEMPLE, and specifically a "holy place" that is holy to the Jews. That is pointing DIRECTLY to the existence of a NEW 3RD STONE TEMPLE in Jerusalem built by the Jews for the coming tribulation. The coming "great tribulation" is the timing Lord Jesus was giving that event for there in Matthew 24, and in Mark 13.

Dan 11:31-35
31 And arms shall stand on his part, and
they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.
33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.
34 Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries.
35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.
KJV


That above is what the "vile person" will do, which represents Apostle Paul's "son of perdition" or "man of sin" in 2 Thess.2. Paul didn't even have to go further in pointing out just who that "man of sin" actually is, because the brethren already knew it was the coming pseudo-Christ that Lord Jesus warned of in His Olivet discourse!

Matt 24:23-26
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, "Lo, here is Christ, or there"; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26
Wherefore if they shall say unto you, "Behold, He is in the desert"; go not forth: "behold, He is in the secret chambers"; believe it not.
KJV

KJV "false Christs" is pseudo-Christos in the Greek, which Strong's defined as "a spurious Messiah", about a singular false-Messiah.

Where would that "secret chambers" be that some will claim that false Messiah will be? It is inside the future new 3rd temple the Jews will build in Jerusalem for the END. Orthodox unbelieving Jews in today's nation of Israel already have the materials ready to build it! They even have the cornerstone cut!

And the fact that the "temple of God" phrase in 2 Thess.2 CANNOT mean Christ's Church is because NO man, NO angel, NOT even Satan, can corrupt the TRUE Church of The Spirit which has Lord Jesus Christ as its Head Cornerstone!
 

covenantee

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That is where you are so in error; a standing stone temple built by the orthodox Jews in Jerusalem for the end is a Biblical REQUIREMENT of prophecy from the Book of Daniel. Lord Jesus even quoted... that future prophecy from the Book of Daniel when He was giving the Signs of the End about the coming "great tribulation". You speaking against the 2 Thessalonians 2:4 verse, which is about that coming event of the Antichrist in Jerusalem setting up an IDOL "abomination of desolation" in a stone temple, shows you are pushing a political agenda against... The Word of God.


Matt 24:15-16
15 When ye therefore shall see
the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
16 Then let them which be in
Judaea flee into the mountains:
KJV


That "holy place" in "Judaea" means in JERUSALEM, at another STONE TEMPLE, and specifically a "holy place" that is holy to the Jews. That is pointing DIRECTLY to the existence of a NEW 3RD STONE TEMPLE in Jerusalem built by the Jews for the coming tribulation. The coming "great tribulation" is the timing Lord Jesus was giving that event for there in Matthew 24, and in Mark 13.

Dan 11:31-35
31 And arms shall stand on his part, and
they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.
33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.
34 Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries.
35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.
KJV


That above is what the "vile person" will do, which represents Apostle Paul's "son of perdition" or "man of sin" in 2 Thess.2. Paul didn't even have to go further in pointing out just who that "man of sin" actually is, because the brethren already knew it was the coming pseudo-Christ that Lord Jesus warned of in His Olivet discourse!

Matt 24:23-26
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, "Lo, here is Christ, or there"; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26
Wherefore if they shall say unto you, "Behold, He is in the desert"; go not forth: "behold, He is in the secret chambers"; believe it not.
KJV

KJV "false Christs" is pseudo-Christos in the Greek, which Strong's defined as "a spurious Messiah", about a singular false-Messiah.

Where would that "secret chambers" be that some will claim that false Messiah will be? It is inside the future new 3rd temple the Jews will build in Jerusalem for the END. Orthodox unbelieving Jews in today's nation of Israel already have the materials ready to build it! They even have the cornerstone cut!

And the fact that the "temple of God" phrase in 2 Thess.2 CANNOT mean Christ's Church is because NO man, NO angel, NOT even Satan, can corrupt the TRUE Church of The Spirit which has Lord Jesus Christ as its Head Cornerstone!
Dispensationalized delusion.

Debunked. :laughing:
 
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Brakelite

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That is where you are so in error; a standing stone temple built by the orthodox Jews in Jerusalem for the end is a Biblical REQUIREMENT of prophecy from the Book of Daniel. Lord Jesus even quoted... that future prophecy from the Book of Daniel when He was giving the Signs of the End about the coming "great tribulation". You speaking against the 2 Thessalonians 2:4 verse, which is about that coming event of the Antichrist in Jerusalem setting up an IDOL "abomination of desolation" in a stone temple, shows you are pushing a political agenda against... The Word of God.


Matt 24:15-16
15 When ye therefore shall see
the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
16 Then let them which be in
Judaea flee into the mountains:
KJV


That "holy place" in "Judaea" means in JERUSALEM, at another STONE TEMPLE, and specifically a "holy place" that is holy to the Jews. That is pointing DIRECTLY to the existence of a NEW 3RD STONE TEMPLE in Jerusalem built by the Jews for the coming tribulation. The coming "great tribulation" is the timing Lord Jesus was giving that event for there in Matthew 24, and in Mark 13.

Dan 11:31-35
31 And arms shall stand on his part, and
they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.
33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.
34 Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries.
35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.
KJV


That above is what the "vile person" will do, which represents Apostle Paul's "son of perdition" or "man of sin" in 2 Thess.2. Paul didn't even have to go further in pointing out just who that "man of sin" actually is, because the brethren already knew it was the coming pseudo-Christ that Lord Jesus warned of in His Olivet discourse!

Matt 24:23-26
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, "Lo, here is Christ, or there"; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26
Wherefore if they shall say unto you, "Behold, He is in the desert"; go not forth: "behold, He is in the secret chambers"; believe it not.
KJV

KJV "false Christs" is pseudo-Christos in the Greek, which Strong's defined as "a spurious Messiah", about a singular false-Messiah.

Where would that "secret chambers" be that some will claim that false Messiah will be? It is inside the future new 3rd temple the Jews will build in Jerusalem for the END. Orthodox unbelieving Jews in today's nation of Israel already have the materials ready to build it! They even have the cornerstone cut!

And the fact that the "temple of God" phrase in 2 Thess.2 CANNOT mean Christ's Church is because NO man, NO angel, NOT even Satan, can corrupt the TRUE Church of The Spirit which has Lord Jesus Christ as its Head Cornerstone!
Conjecture and assumption. There is not one specific text in all scripture stating what you claim. You are relying on your own understanding, not revelation. Where the Bible explicitly states the church or the individual as the temple of God, you deny, deny, deny. The only time where Paul mentions the temple of God without explanation. you perceive he is not speaking the truth.
Paul explicitly explains that the temple of God will house the antichrist. You cannot turn around and claim such is impossible, when scripture states categorically that it is not only possible, but will be a fulfillment of prophecy. And it was fulfilled, by the papal apostasy sitting in God's church claiming to be God by overuling God's commandments thus claiming authority higher than God.
That word apostasy in Greek denotes divorce. One cannot be divorced without first having a right relationship. Therefore the antichrist can absolutely sit in God's church, just as Paul said.
 

Davy

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Conjecture and assumption. There is not one specific text in all scripture stating what you claim. You are relying on your own understanding, not revelation. Where the Bible explicitly states the church or the individual as the temple of God, you deny, deny, deny. The only time where Paul mentions the temple of God without explanation. you perceive he is not speaking the truth.
Paul explicitly explains that the temple of God will house the antichrist. You cannot turn around and claim such is impossible, when scripture states categorically that it is not only possible, but will be a fulfillment of prophecy. And it was fulfilled, by the papal apostasy sitting in God's church claiming to be God by overuling God's commandments thus claiming authority higher than God.
That word apostasy in Greek denotes divorce. One cannot be divorced without first having a right relationship. Therefore the antichrist can absolutely sit in God's church, just as Paul said.



And that happened back 1990...

Interest in rebuilding the Temple in Jerusalem rose to a fever pitch last October when a group calling themselves the “Temple Mount Faithful” attempted to lay a cornerstone for the “Third Temple” at the Western Wall plaza. Denied a place near the wall, Yehuda Cohen and his followers placed the stone at a nearby quarry, awaiting the day when it would be put “in its rightful place.” Two years ago, at the 20-year commemoration of the reunification of Jerusalem, the same group was sounding the shofar and laying claim to the sacred Mount for the Messiah and His Temple.