Hell as the default for humankind?

[soberxp]

User: What is the origin of the word "Hell"?

Assistant: The origin of the word "Hell" is a fascinating linguistic story. It doesn't come directly from Greek mythology, but rather evolved from a Germanic pagan concept into a Christian theological term.

In short, the origin of "Hell" can be traced back to an ancient Germanic word meaning "to cover" or "conceal," which evolved into "the hidden place of the dead," and eventually, under Christian influence, became "the place of everlasting fire for the punishment of the wicked."

2. Evolution in Old English
In Old English (spoken from roughly the 5th to the 12th century), this word evolved into hel or hell.

The Original Norse/Germanic Concept：Before the arrival of Christianity, the Germanic and Norse peoples (like the Anglo-Saxons) had their own concepts of the afterlife. Their "hell" was a relatively neutral, underground realm of the dead, similar to Helheim in Norse mythology. Most souls, whether they had done good or evil in life, would go there.

Interesting Connection：In Norse mythology, the female being who ruled this underworld was named Hel. She is directly related to the modern English word "Hell."

 

[Justified]

My use of the word justice there was in reference to the Christian definition of God's justice.

Don't try and backtrack. The Christian definition is the biblical definition and you provided no qualifications in your definition of that.

The Christian understanding is that we are not to take revenge because God is planning to do that.
Sinful for us but not for Him?

Yes, because he is perfectly holy and omniscient--he isn't doing it from a sinful heart or partial understanding. He is God, after all, who created us.

Countless billions have gone to the afterlife without having ever even heard of Christ.

Yes, they have.

They don't need a second chance, they need a first chance. And they will have it.

How so?

Every knee will bow and every tongue acknowledge Christ as Lord.

Yes, but not for salvation. Only those who bow the knee and confess Christ as Lord prior to death or Christ's return, will be saved. The rest do so on their way to judgement. That is what the Bible teaches. You don't have to like it, but it's true nonetheless.

So, the penalty for refusing a free gift (free = no strings attached) is to spend eternity apart from Him, which means burning in the lake of fire?

Yes, that is the clear teaching of Scripture. Why do you think Jesus's strongest warnings were about doing things to keep one from going to hell, like removing one's eye?

And this is a manifestation of God's holiness, righteousness, love, and equity?

Yes. You seem to want God to just let people off the hook, which is neither just nor loving nor righteous nor fair. As I stated at the outset, your understanding of God is significantly deficient.

What does one have to do to become a tyrant, if this is acceptable behavior?

That is blasphemous. You're treading on dangerous ground.

 

[St. SteVen]

How so?

Yes, but not for salvation. Only those who bow the knee and confess Christ as Lord prior to death or Christ's return, will be saved. The rest do so on their way to judgement. That is what the Bible teaches. You don't have to like it, but it's true nonetheless.

Everyone who has knees to bow and a tongue to speak, in heaven and on earth and under the earth (in the realm of the dead), will whole-heartedly, and without reservation, acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord. No one can say that “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit. If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” you will be saved. Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. (the reason for the bodily resurrection) Scriptural support below.

Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

1 Corinthians 12:3
Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says,
“Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

Romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart
that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Romans 14:9
For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that
he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

Note on "acknowledge" in Philippians 2:11 from Strong's Concordance
S1843 eksomologéō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 3670 /homologéō, "say the same thing about") – properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"), without reservation (no holding back).

Further reading: Isaiah 45:23; Romans 14:11; Revelation 15:4

 

[St. SteVen]

Yes. You seem to want God to just let people off the hook, which is neither just nor loving nor righteous nor fair.

No. I have maintained that there will be accountability.
Every nation, leader (both government and religious) and person will give an accounting for their behavior.
The goal is restoration. The healing of the nations.

 

[Bob]

Don't try and backtrack. The Christian definition is the biblical definition and you provided no qualifications in your definition of that.


Yes, because he is perfectly holy and omniscient--he isn't doing it from a sinful heart or partial understanding. He is God, after all, who created us.


Yes, they have.


How so?


Yes, but not for salvation. Only those who bow the knee and confess Christ as Lord prior to death or Christ's return, will be saved. The rest do so on their way to judgement. That is what the Bible teaches. You don't have to like it, but it's true nonetheless.


Yes, that is the clear teaching of Scripture. Why do you think Jesus's strongest warnings were about doing things to keep one from going to hell, like removing one's eye?


Yes. You seem to want God to just let people off the hook, which is neither just nor loving nor righteous nor fair. As I stated at the outset, your understanding of God is significantly deficient.


That is blasphemous. You're treading on dangerous ground.

Thank you for engaging.

It would appear all of us agree that the clear teaching of Scripture is: without accepting Christ as Savior (and living as Christ said we should), then that person will spend eternity suffering after death.

Well, suppose a person lives and exemplary life: loving God and loving neighbor, etc., but for some reason decides the let God be the judge, and not accept Jesus as savior. Does that mean, per scripture, the exemplary life counts for nothing in God’s eyes?

We are not meaning to sound heretical, but are having a hard time with this interpretation of God’s word.

Blessings.

 

[St. SteVen]

It would appear all of us agree that the clear teaching of Scripture is: without accepting Christ as Savior (and living as Christ said we should), then that person will spend eternity suffering after death.

Just to be clear, I do not agree with that.
I think your follow-up question is spot on.

Well, suppose a person lives and exemplary life: loving God and loving neighbor, etc., but for some reason decides the let God be the judge, and not accept Jesus as savior. Does that mean, per scripture, the exemplary life counts for nothing in God’s eyes?

Yes, it counts.

Romans 2:14-16 NIV
(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law,
do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves,
even though they do not have the law.
15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts,
their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts
sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)
16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets
through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

 

[Mark1230]

No.
I want a God who is in the redemption business, not the punishment business.

Jesus taught us that loving our enemies is godly behavior.
What should He do with His own enemies?

If the unregenerate are in no danger, then why the incarnation, the cross? If you are correct, the whole Calvary thing seems a bit over the top, does it not. You say you want a Savior who is in the redemption business. Redemption from what exactly?

 

[St. SteVen]

If the unregenerate are in no danger, then why the incarnation, the cross? If you are correct, the whole Calvary thing seems a bit over the top, does it not. You say you want a Savior who is in the redemption business. Redemption from what exactly?

On the contrary. Everyone is in danger.
Who was Jesus telling to cut off hands and pluck out eyes?
Believers or unbelievers?

The atonement paid the death penalty for all of humankind, not just the regenerate.

1 John 2:2 NIV
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

 

[Beebster]

The atonement paid the death penalty for all of humankind, not just the regenerate.

1 John 2:2 NIV
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

1Ti 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

Yup, that's everyone.

Mat 18:11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.

And that's everyone.

 

[Bob]

Thank you all for the discussion.

The question of an eternity of suffering in fire for the nonbeliever still needs clarification: truly an eternity, and not a finite time, with the positive aspects of the nonbeliever’s life taken into consideration?

Consider two people:

A: This person is a Model for Micah 6:8 throughout his life (he has acts justify, shows mercy, & walks humbly with God). Those who know him say that he has definitely chosen the Narrow Way. Yet, he balks at declaring Jesus his savior, even on his deathbed.
B: This person is a scoundrel, a cad, a jerk for most of his life. Those who know him say he has definitely chosen the Broad Way. Then, a week before he dies, he repents fully, declares Jesus as his savior, is baptized, and gives all he owns to charity.

When person A comes before God, is he to suffer for eternity, and not just a finite time?
When person B comes before God, does he become one with God?

Blessings.

 

[St. SteVen]

The question of an eternity of suffering in fire for the nonbeliever still needs clarification: truly an eternity, and not a finite time, with the positive aspects of the nonbeliever’s life taken into consideration?

There are three biblical doctrines of the final judgement.
All three are contradictory.
1) Damnationism (the forever burning hell)
2) Annihilationism (the wicked are destroyed)
3) Ultimate Restoration (everyone is corrected and redeemed)
Also known as Universalism.

 

[Jack]

The Plan?
- Create humankind in your own image.
- Give them free-will to choose.
- Pay their sin debt.
- Send them to Hell for not accepting a free gift.

What's wrong with this picture?

[

Jesus warned you several times. Stop complaining!

 

[Justified]

Everyone who has knees to bow and a tongue to speak, in heaven and on earth and under the earth (in the realm of the dead), will whole-heartedly, and without reservation, acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord. No one can say that “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit. If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” you will be saved. Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. (the reason for the bodily resurrection) Scriptural support below.

Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

1 Corinthians 12:3
Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says,
“Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

Romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart
that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Romans 14:9
For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that
he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

Note on "acknowledge" in Philippians 2:11 from Strong's Concordance
S1843 eksomologéō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 3670 /homologéō, "say the same thing about") – properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"), without reservation (no holding back).

Further reading: Isaiah 45:23; Romans 14:11; Revelation 15:4

This is a serious twisting of Scripture. Yes, no one can say Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit, but that is referring to now in terms of those who are saved.

1Co 12:2 You know that when you were pagans you were led astray to mute idols, however you were led.
1Co 12:3 Therefore I want you to understand that no one speaking in the Spirit of God ever says “Jesus is accursed!” and no one can say “Jesus is Lord” except in the Holy Spirit.
1Co 12:4 Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit;
1Co 12:5 and there are varieties of service, but the same Lord;

Look at the context. Paul is speaking of now, within the context of spiritual gifts and their use in the church. That has nothing to do with the end of the age when Christ comes in judgement:

Mat 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Do you really think that all unbeliever will say "Jesus is Lord" because they will have the Holy Spirit and so become saved? Are people saved and then thrown into eternal punishment? No. Unbelievers will finally admit that Jesus is Lord, but they will likely do so reluctantly, from a hardened heart, because they will see him as he is and realize there error in rejecting him their entire lives, and it will be too late for their salvation.

Again, the NT makes it clear that once we die or Christ returns, we face judgement. That judgement is eternal and it means we either spend eternity with God or eternity apart from him.

No. I have maintained that there will be accountability.
Every nation, leader (both government and religious) and person will give an accounting for their behavior.

It isn't about accountability, it's about punishment. God's justice demands punishment because he is also holy and loving.

The goal is restoration. The healing of the nations.

There is not only no stated goal of restoration in the entirety of Scripture, there is much against such a notion. One's behaviour is the evidence of one's salvation or lack thereof.

 

[Jack]

Universalism is spiritual suicide!

Revelation 20:10
10 They will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

 

[Justified]

Thank you for engaging.

It would appear all of us agree that the clear teaching of Scripture is: without accepting Christ as Savior (and living as Christ said we should), then that person will spend eternity suffering after death.

Well, suppose a person lives and exemplary life: loving God and loving neighbor, etc., but for some reason decides the let God be the judge, and not accept Jesus as savior. Does that mean, per scripture, the exemplary life counts for nothing in God’s eyes?

We are not meaning to sound heretical, but are having a hard time with this interpretation of God’s word.

Blessings.

If one doesn't "accept Jesus as savior," then it means they are not "loving God." Those are mutually exclusive ideas. So, yes, it means their "exemplary life counts for nothing in God's eyes."

Joh 1:11 He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him.
Joh 1:12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,

Joh 3:3 Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
...
Joh 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
Joh 3:15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.
Joh 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
Joh 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Joh 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

Joh 14:15 “If you love me, you will keep my commandments.
...
Joh 14:19 Yet a little while and the world will see me no more, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live.
Joh 14:20 In that day you will know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you.
Joh 14:21 Whoever has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me. And he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him.”
...
Joh 14:23 Jesus answered him, “If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.
Joh 14:24 Whoever does not love me does not keep my words. And the word that you hear is not mine but the Father's who sent me.

Joh 20:31 but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

There is and only one basis for salvation--repenting and putting one's faith in Christ, who he is and his work, and so received the free gift of salvation. Good works will never save anyone.

 

[Bob]

If one doesn't "accept Jesus as savior," then it means they are not "loving God." Those are mutually exclusive ideas. So, yes, it means their "exemplary life counts for nothing in God's eyes."

Joh 1:11 He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him.
Joh 1:12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,

Joh 3:3 Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
...
Joh 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
Joh 3:15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.
Joh 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
Joh 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Joh 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

Joh 14:15 “If you love me, you will keep my commandments.
...
Joh 14:19 Yet a little while and the world will see me no more, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live.
Joh 14:20 In that day you will know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you.
Joh 14:21 Whoever has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me. And he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him.”
...
Joh 14:23 Jesus answered him, “If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.
Joh 14:24 Whoever does not love me does not keep my words. And the word that you hear is not mine but the Father's who sent me.

Joh 20:31 but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

There is and only one basis for salvation--repenting and putting one's faith in Christ, who he is and his work, and so received the free gift of salvation. Good works will never save anyone.

Thank you for the long analysis.

Unfortunately, there remain questions for me (and possibly just me).

The one person (A) strives his whole life to love his neighbor as described in the law and as clarified by Jesus. His flaw: He does not declare Jesus as savior. The second person (B), mostly a scoundrel, accepts Jesus only at the end.

The primary question on the table is whether A is given ETERNAL punishment (as opposed to finite punishment).
The secondary question is whether B receives any punishment.

If the Bible is not clear, that is understandable.

Blessings.

 

[St. SteVen]

This is a serious twisting of Scripture. Yes, no one can say Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit, but that is referring to now in terms of those who are saved.

So, what it plainly says can't be true?
Because it doesn't fit your doctrine.

What makes a doctrine false?

What makes a doctrine false? Please quote what you would like to respond to. Thanks. 1. You've never heard it before. (knee-jerk defensive response) 2. You have heard of it before, but assume it's false. (haven't looked into it) 3. Doesn't align with your church's doctrine (your church...

www.christianityboard.com

 

[Justified]

Thank you for the long analysis.

Unfortunately, there remain questions for me (and possibly just me).

The one person (A) strives his whole life to love his neighbor as described in the law and as clarified by Jesus. His flaw: He does not declare Jesus as savior. The second person (B), mostly a scoundrel, accepts Jesus only at the end.

The primary question on the table is whether A is given ETERNAL punishment (as opposed to finite punishment).
The secondary question is whether B receives any punishment.

If the Bible is not clear, that is understandable.

The Bible is clear. A person can do all the good works they want, even works done in Christ's name, but the central issue is whether or not he knows them, that is, whether or not they belong to him by having repented and put their faith in him and his work on the cross:

Mat 7:21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’
Mat 7:23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

There is only one way to heaven and it isn't through self-righteousness, through ones good works even if they were done in the name of Christ.

As for "punishment," you need to clarify what you mean by that.

Person A, if he hasn't believed in the name of Jesus, as per the previous passages I gave, which is to say that he hasn't repented and put his faith in Jesus and his salvific work, then he will spend eternity apart from God. If person B has truly repented and turned to Christ, he will spend eternity with God.

 

[Justified]

So, what it plainly says can't be true?
Because it doesn't fit your doctrine.

No, it's because you are ignoring a lot of other biblical context. I have provided ample evidence that where a person spends eternity is determined by whether or not they have accepted God's free gift of salvation by faith, and there is only one period of time in which that can happen--this life. Once a person dies or Christ returns, they face judgement. Nowhere is it stated in Scripture that a person can go from hell (the lake of fire) to heaven. These states are eternal, hence Jesus's severe warnings:

Mat 5:29 If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell.
Mat 5:30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into hell.

Mat 18:7 “Woe to the world for temptations to sin! For it is necessary that temptations come, but woe to the one by whom the temptation comes!
Mat 18:8 And if your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life crippled or lame than with two hands or two feet to be thrown into the eternal fire.
Mat 18:9 And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into the hell of fire.

He is saying that it is better to enter eternal life with God missing a foot or an eye than to be thrown into hell. There can be no stronger warning than that. Most people will end up in hell for eternity:

Mat 7:13 “Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many.
Mat 7:14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.

Therefore, when Paul writes that every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord, it cannot be referring to the salvation of everyone. Even if it is a true acknowledgement that Jesus is Lord, and it very well is likely, it will not save; it is too late.

Even now, could an unsaved person merely say the words "Jesus is Lord"? Yes. Would that mean they are filled with the Spirit and so are saved? Not at all. Faith is necessary; they actually have to believe that what they're saying is true:

Rom 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.
Rom 10:11 For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.”
Rom 10:12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him.
Rom 10:13 For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

We have one chance in this life to do so and after comes the judgement:

Heb 9:27 And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment,

Those who reject Christ in life will spend eternity apart from him.

 

[Beebster]

No, it's because you are ignoring a lot of other biblical context. I have provided ample evidence that where a person spends eternity is determined by whether or not they have accepted God's free gift of salvation by faith, and there is only one period of time in which that can happen--this life. Once a person dies or Christ returns, they face judgement. Nowhere is it stated in Scripture that a person can go from hell (the lake of fire) to heaven. These states are eternal, hence Jesus's severe warnings:

Mat 5:29 If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell.
Mat 5:30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into hell.

Mat 18:7 “Woe to the world for temptations to sin! For it is necessary that temptations come, but woe to the one by whom the temptation comes!
Mat 18:8 And if your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life crippled or lame than with two hands or two feet to be thrown into the eternal fire.
Mat 18:9 And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into the hell of fire.

He is saying that it is better to enter eternal life with God missing a foot or an eye than to be thrown into hell. There can be no stronger warning than that. Most people will end up in hell for

And did you cut your right eye out? Surely it's caused you to sin.

How many limbs have lopped off that have undoubtedly caused you to sin?

Oh wait, that gift is free only if you maim yourself right?

The Christian hell is a myth and thereby the lake of fire cannot possibly be hell.

Christ, as usual, was speaking in figurative language so that man could not understand