Can One Be Christian and Not Believe In The Trinity?

[GodsGrace]

@GodsGrace

Look, look, look. I'll tell you what I don't understand about the trinity if you promise to stop the personal attacks. No more rude name calling like saying im not a christian or calling me lame. And I'll do the same including not calling you a liar.

Deal?

First let's get this straight.
YOU called ME dishonest.


Did you read the OP?
Do you understand what this thread is about?

All my posts to you and you to me were a waste of time.
I'm not here to waste my time but to have thoughful and serious dialogue.

I explained to you why the designation CHRISTIAN means something very specific.
If you believe that's a PERSONAL INSULT to you,,,I'm not sure we have anything further to discuss.

Since you're pretty new here,,,I'll give this one more shot.

What don't you understand about the trinity?

 

[Grailhunter]

3 Gods on 3 thrones. Yeshua siting on the right hand of the Father.
I believe in…
God the Father…Yahweh…God Almighty…Creator of Heaven and Earth and Adam and Eve…..

God the Son…Yeshua…the Son of God…Messiah…Savior…Redeemer.

The Holy Spirit…the unnamed God…helper…guide… teacher… strengthener….nurturer…..

The term Trinity was coined early on but was not defined as 3 in 1 until the 4th century.

The 3 in 1 formula was developed by the Roman Catholic Church and sadly adopted by Protestants.

One God in the Old Testament.....Yahweh said Himself several times.....I am the only God and there is no one like me.

In the New Testament 3 Gods....Yahweh.....Yeshus....The Holy Spirit.

The Apostles understood the supremacy and uniqueness of Yahweh and would say One True God.....and In verses would refer to God the Father as God and God the Son as Lord in the same verse. Example---->For the love of God and our Lord Jesus. Notice the ands.

The Father is greater than I and over 50 "My Father verses.

"Because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." This verse emphasizes the importance of acknowledging Jesus' lordship for salvation.” Romans 10:9: One God raised another.

"May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all." 2nd Corinthians" 13:14: Three Gods mentioned....Jesus as Lord and the love of God and the Holy Spirit.

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly realms." Ephesians 1:3: "God the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ"

"Then Jesus came to them and said, 'All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.'" This verse underscores Jesus' divine authority over all creation. Matthew 28:18: He did not give authority to Himself.

"Yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live." This verse emphasizes the unique position of Jesus as Lord in relation to God the Father." 1st Corinthians 8:6: One God and One Lord.

"Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah." This verse affirms Jesus' role as both Lord and Savior." Acts 2:36 "God has made"

“For God so loved the world, that He gave His [a]only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. John 3:16 Yahweh is the Father and He begot a Son Yeshua,

and behold, a voice out of the heavens said, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased.” Matthew 3:17 God was not pleased with Himself.

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings again Lambano,

God the Father did not beget another God.

Are you sure? How do you know?

To beget is to create. God created the human Jesus. You cannot create a God. When do you actually consider that God the Father created God the Son?

You did not quote my full statement above and as such you have not answered my question "When do you actually consider that God the Father created God the Son?" You only quoted the following prtion:

You cannot create a God.

God can do anything. Including begetting a Son of the same nature as Himself.

So to ask again: "When do you actually consider that God the Father created God the Son?" or when did God the Father beget God the Son?

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[soberxp]

They just don't want accept God made human in the image of God.
But human beings never be the one true God.
Jesus Christ is the first and last that God made prefect one in the image of God.
And all things were made for it, made in the image of God.
Also God was not made.....
God created everything not for something they claimed 3in1.
Jesus Christ really Won the whole world, cuz he is really What God wanted to make.
You couldn't say that God can't made one in his own image.
Because apart from Jesus Christ, none of us count as image of God.
We can only be regarded as a traitorous AI，The story of Skynet.

 

[PS95]

They just don't want to accept God made human in the image of God.
But human beings never be the one true God.
Jesus Christ is the first and last that God made prefect one in the image of God.
And all things were made for it, made in the image of God.
Also God was not made.....

Is this a joke? you are comparing how man is made in the image of God with how the WORD of God who created man in His own image and is Himself the EXACT representation of His father's nature with you? Hebrews 1
He is the very brilliance of His Father's glory! Heb 1. Are you?
He upholds the universe by the word of His power! Hebrews 1:3 Do you?
Yes, HIM who died on the cross was able to ALSO uphold the universe.
UNLESS you deny the scriptures.
You are daring to compare the one who ALL things were made by whether in heaven or earth with HIS creatures? Col 1
you are very confused.

 

[soberxp]

Is this a joke? you are comparing how man is made in the image of God with how the WORD of God who created man in His own image

Don't take things out of context.

 

[PS95]

Greetings again Lambano,



You did not quote my full statement above and as such you have not answered my question "When do you actually consider that God the Father created God the Son?" You only quoted the following prtion:


So to ask again: "When do you actually consider that God the Father created God the Son?" or when did God the Father beget God the Son?

Kind regards
Trevor

I will answer your last Q-
Having been raised in JW teachings and rejecting them as false- I have had to delve into this topic deeply.

Did God the Father create the Son?

If you are referring to Jesus in the flesh, and I assume that you are since you deny He lived in heaven prior to becoming flesh...
So under the assumption that we are referring to Jesus in the flesh only- I suppose you could refer to Him as being created in a sense, as far as His flesh only goes.. It is preferred to use the word, begotten. John referred to Jesus as the only begotten Son. We should also.

When did the Father beget the Son?
According to scripture- It is written in Acts 13 that Jesus was begotten at His resurrection. Ps 2:7 was fulfilled there claims the apostle.

Is it a natural assumption to say that Jesus was also begotten by the Father when He was born on earth? Sure. However, the scriptures do not apply PS 2:7 to His birth.


It is futile to discuss this further with you, Trevor, since you deny that when Jesus said that He came down from heaven-that he actually meant it literally. The WORD BECAME FLESH.
John 6:38
“For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.

Since you deny those plain words spoken- there is no point in discussing the Word who was in the beginning- before all time.

 

[PS95]

Don't take things out of context.

that's your reply? I noticed that about you. You have much to say but when confronted.. you clam up.

 

[soberxp]

that's your reply? I noticed that about you. You have much to say but when confronted.. you clam up.

Okay, the Bible never said Jesus Christ is the image of God.

Okay? That's your Trinity Bible.

 

[PS95]

Okay, the Bible never said Jesus Christ is the image of God.

Okay? That's your Trinity Bible.

No clue what you mean by trinity bible? Want to explain?
I did not say Jesus is not the image of God. I said he is.
The scriptures say this-
The Son is the image of the invisible God-- Col 1 ( yes the father is invisible-HOW can you see invisible?)
The scriptures also say this-
The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the EXACT representation of His nature, upholding all things by His powerful word.--
Hebrews 1

So much for my trinity bible.. maybe if you read your bible more it would be a good idea?

 

[PS95]

3 Gods on 3 thrones. Yeshua siting on the right hand of the Father.
I believe in…

Polytheism? 3 gods.. You don't seem to understand that thrones isn't literal. God doesn't actually sit on an actual throne. Throne denotes His power and authority.

God the Father…Yahweh…God Almighty…Creator of Heaven and Earth and Adam and Eve…..

Col 1 john1 WORD created..

God the Son…Yeshua…the Son of God…Messiah…Savior…Redeemer.

YHWH in OT is redeemer and savior..

The Holy Spirit…the unnamed God…helper…guide… teacher… strengthener….nurturer…..

God is all of those

The term Trinity was coined early on but was not defined as 3 in 1 until the 4th century.

yes, it was not defined yet because there were no real arguments over it

The 3 in 1 formula was developed by the Roman Catholic Church and sadly adopted by Protestants.

not the RCC- but all orthodox bishops were involved
- they had not yet split in 325

One God in the Old Testament.....Yahweh said Himself several times.....I am the only God and there is no one like me.

Yes, He does say that!! and yet His son is exactly like Him... Did God lie? Did he forget His own Son? Of course not. They are one. That is how He speaks of Him and His Son. Was God alone by Himself when he created all things? t
hat is what He said in
Isaiah 44:24--
24Thus says the LORD,
your Redeemer who formed you from the womb:
“I am the LORD,
who has made all things,
who alone stretched out the heavens,
who by Myself spread out the earth,

John teaches the Word who became flesh was with God and nothing was created without Him. john 1
Paul teaches that all things in heaven and earth were made by Him. Colossians 1
Hebrews 1 says the Son created

So does God consider HImself as ALONE when with HIS SON?

+YES

In the New Testament 3 Gods....Yahweh.....Yeshus....The Holy Spirit.

The Apostles understood the supremacy and uniqueness of Yahweh and would say One True God.....and In verses would refer to God the Father as God and God the Son as Lord in the same verse. Example---->For the love of God and our Lord Jesus. Notice the ands.

How else do we make the distinction between the persons? We call Father God and Son Lord. Makes perfect sense to me.

The Father is greater than I and over 50 "My Father verses.

Remember that Jesus "BECAME A SERVANT"
and humbled HIMSELF.
Philippians 2

"Because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." This verse emphasizes the importance of acknowledging Jesus' lordship for salvation.” Romans 10:9: One God raised another.

God raised Jesus. The son said he would raise Himself.. it also says the Spirit raised jesus.
one God.

"May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all." 2nd Corinthians" 13:14: Three Gods mentioned....Jesus as Lord and the love of God and the Holy Spirit.

polytheism

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly realms." Ephesians 1:3: "God the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ"

are you this confused? yes, He is the Father of HIs Son..

"Then Jesus came to them and said, 'All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.'" This verse underscores Jesus' divine authority over all creation. Matthew 28:18: He did not give authority to Himself.

Jesus when found in the flesh had given up His former existence.. Philippians 2 - He became a servant to His father, and for us.

"Yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live." This verse emphasizes the unique position of Jesus as Lord in relation to God the Father." 1st Corinthians 8:6: One God and One Lord.

The Father is still Lord ( lowercase) and is called Lord in the NT and Jesus called Him, Lord of heaven and earth.. Therefore- if saying One God the Father means that Jesus can't be God also- then the Father can't also be Lord.
That is not what that means!
he is making a distinction between persons for clarity when speaking of them. There are not many gods and many lords- they are fakes. There is one God and one Lord -and they are one. - not many-
My father and I are one.

"Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah." This verse affirms Jesus' role as both Lord and Savior." Acts 2:36 "God has made"

Yes, prior to that He was not the savior..

“For God so loved the world, that He gave His [a]only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. John 3:16 Yahweh is the Father and He begot a Son Yeshua,

Yes. the Word became flesh.

and behold, a voice out of the heavens said, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased.” Matthew 3:17 God was not pleased with Himself.

The Father and son are not the same person....

 

[JustMe]

Here's the NASB:

15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation: 16 for by (literally "in") Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or dominions, or rulers, or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

"Through", that dia in 16b, posits instrumentality in Creation, which requires existence prior to Creation. And the pro ("before") in verse 17 can mean either priority in time or priority in status.

LB: I think you are missing the main point and the context of this scripture passage written by Paul.

Regardless of the precision or the version/translation of scripture you have found for what you consider a key word regarding the Son’s pre-existence, in translating from Greek to English, Paul is not referring to Genesis at all here and thus Paul is not speaking of the Son of God preexisting before his natural birth as a human being.

You are mistaken. Why would Paul suddenly insert your Genesis theme into the topic of the Son of God’s preeminence over all creation, surpassing all other created beings made by his Father? He is speaking about other creatures like angels and human beings only! And Paul definitely not speaking of being preeminent over rocks and planets either of course.
The important point is understanding that being the firstborn of 'pas' or 'all' creation is limited to the new creation established by the Son of God at his resurrection and ascension after Pentecost, for the new believers, the Body of Christ or the infant church. This is what Paul is addressing here, not some imaginative idea of the Son as the creator of the universe and earth, which God the Father accomplished long ago. Also, why would Paul mention both IN heaven and ON earth as if retelling the Genesis account? Paul is describing God working through his Son, as he did on the Cross, to establish and gather new members of his Body, including angels, IN heaven and ON earth.


Just saying... this changes everything, doesn’t it? So, consider again: Is Paul talking about the original Genesis here, or the new 'Genesis' of believers and new thrones, dominions, rulers, and authorities under his command to build the Kingdom since the 1st century AD?

And if Paul is speaking of the church and more here over the original Genesis account, this certainly does not establish any pre-existence of Yeshua now does it.

And in verse 17, Yeshua does not hold the planets and Universe together and is some how before (pre-existed) all these physical things. That would be rather silly. He is before in authority and statue to all he holds and bonds together in himself since his ascension and today, at least his growing Body of believers and its structure.

 

[Armour of God]

First let's get this straight.
YOU called ME dishonest.


Did you read the OP?
Do you understand what this thread is about?

All my posts to you and you to me were a waste of time.
I'm not here to waste my time but to have thoughful and serious dialogue.

I explained to you why the designation CHRISTIAN means something very specific.
If you believe that's a PERSONAL INSULT to you,,,I'm not sure we have anything further to discuss.

Since you're pretty new here,,,I'll give this one more shot.

What don't you understand about the trinity?

Don't worry about it. Remember that you were calling us non Christians just for not understanding and you called me lame, thats a personal attack. I am willing to forget about that but I can see that you are very bitter, still holding resentment and narrow minded, not accepting that some people will not understand this complicated topic. Any discussion with you will be fruitless

May Gods peace and grace be with you

 

[TazzJazz]

I do have a verse for you but I would think the OP would want you to start a new thread as this is not what the thread is about . Tag me when and if you start a new thread . I will not reply again to you on this thread about the subject you started .

Phil2
12Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

I was only responding to your statement:

"Jesus Christ , the Son of God is our savior and we follow Him and keep His commandments as told to us in the New Testament .
That should cover it ."

And I completely agree! We must believe and accept that Jesus is our Savior, sent by God, His Father and ours. And if we want to be Christ's "friends", obedience is imperative. -- John 15:14

I was simply asking whether you thought the majority religions of Christendom have been obedient to Jesus in genuinely loving their brothers.
Jesus stressed obedience at Matthew 7:20-23, when He identified false Christians by their actions.... He called them "workers of evil", as the reason for His disapproval. What they believed and taught, Jesus didnt even mention. (Although it is important.)

 

[Lambano]

Isn't Arius the person who taught Arianism??
I do believe so.

He taught that Jesus is a man.

No, ma'am. That's not what Arius taught at all.

Arius - Wikipedia

"Many summary accounts present the Arian controversy as a dispute over whether or not Christ was divine....It is misleading to assume that these controversies were about 'the divinity of Christ'."

Arius taught that the Father begat the Son sometime in Eternity Past and that the Son was subordinate to the Father (a view apparently derived from Origen, and with Biblical support). The "co-eternal", "co-equal", and "consubstantial" clauses in the Nicene Creed were specifically aimed at Arius. But Arius affirmed the divinity of Christ.

 

[Grailhunter]

Polytheism? 3 gods.. You don't seem to understand that thrones isn't literal. God doesn't actually sit on an actual throne. Throne denotes His power and authority.

As long as you can find in scriptures that the thrones are not literal, I will be fine with that.
Maybe Yeshua resurrecting was not literal?
Maybe ascending to his Father was not literal?
Or that Yeshua was the Son of God was literal.
Raising Lazarus was not literal.
Salvation is not literal?
Where do you draw the line? Or do you just make it up as you go?

 

[Grailhunter]

No, ma'am. That's not what Arius taught at all.

Arius - Wikipedia

"Many summary accounts present the Arian controversy as a dispute over whether or not Christ was divine....It is misleading to assume that these controversies were about 'the divinity of Christ'."

Arius taught that the Father begat the Son sometime in Eternity Past and that the Son was subordinate to the Father (a view apparently derived from Origen, and with Biblical support). The "co-eternal", "co-equal", and "consubstantial" clauses in the Nicene Creed were specifically aimed at Arius. But Arius affirmed the divinity of Christ.

Between the end of the biblical era and the Roman Ecumenical Councils that came up with the false doctrine of 3 in 1 formula for the Trinity. There were many thought about the Trinity but not the 3 in 1 concept. To sci-fi.
Yahweh and Yeshua and the Holy Spirit are all Gods.

 

[Lambano]

Regardless of the precision or the version/translation of scripture you have found for what you consider a key word regarding the Son’s pre-existence, in translating from Greek to English, Paul is not referring to Genesis at all here and thus Paul is not speaking of the Son of God preexisting before his natural birth as a human being

The echo of Genesis 1:26 in verse 15 does indeed harken back to the Creation narrative:

15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

 

[Lambano]

You did not quote my full statement above and as such you have not answered my question "When do you actually consider that God the Father created God the Son?"

"Begat" is the proper term.

Since Paul attributes instrumentality in Creation to the Son, it would logically be prior to Creation, what the theologians call "Eternity-Past". It is meaningless to ask time questions about matters that logically precede the creation of time.

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings PS95,

I will answer your last Q-
Having been raised in JW teachings and rejecting them as false- I have had to delve into this topic deeply.

I appreciate your response and anticipated "deep" insight. I am immediately cautious as you may still have some thoughts influenced by your former JW connections, or maybe you have swung to another extreme as a result of your new convictions. But let us proceed.

If you are referring to Jesus in the flesh, and I assume that you are since you deny He lived in heaven prior to becoming flesh...
So under the assumption that we are referring to Jesus in the flesh only- I suppose you could refer to Him as being created in a sense, as far as His flesh only goes.. It is preferred to use the word, begotten. John referred to Jesus as the only begotten Son. We should also.

I can tentatively agree with this, but I question what you would detail by your statement "as far as His flesh only goes". I suppose that unlike JWs you now believe in immortals souls with your new theology. How do you define "His flesh"? Did "His flesh" include his glory and character "full of grace and truth"? How do you apply this to John 1:14 "The Word was made flesh"?

When did the Father beget the Son?
According to scripture- It is written in Acts 13 that Jesus was begotten at His resurrection. Ps 2:7 was fulfilled there claims the apostle.
Is it a natural assumption to say that Jesus was also begotten by the Father when He was born on earth? Sure. However, the scriptures do not apply PS 2:7 to His birth.

When Jesus was raised from the dead and given immortality, this was a new birth, a resurrection, a new begettal. This does not negate that Jesus was conceived/born by God the Father and he is the only begotten of the Father, words which describe the process recorded in the narratives Matthew 1:20-21 and Luke 1:34-35. I do not take Psalm 2:7 as describing his birth.

It is futile to discuss this further with you, Trevor, since you deny that when Jesus said that He came down from heaven-that he actually meant it literally. The WORD BECAME FLESH.

I have a different view of "The WORD" in John 1:1,14, different to the JW view and the Trinitarian view. I consider the The Word is a personification similar to the Wise Woman of Proverbs 8 who was with God in the creation.

John 6:38
“For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
Since you deny those plain words spoken- there is no point in discussing the Word who was in the beginning- before all time.

I do not deny these words, but I do not believe that God the Son or Michael the Archangel or similar somehow inhabited Jesus or became transformed into Jesus. I believe that Exodus 3:14 should be translated as "I will be" and it is The One God, Yahweh, God the Father who came down from heaven in and through His Son, our Lord Jesus Christ.

Kind regards
Trevor