The Third Woe

[Douggg]

The Yo-Yo theory is what you are pushing with a false Pre-trib Rapture doctrine that was first preached in a Christian church in 1830's Britain by John Nelson Darby. It says Jesus raptures the Church to Heaven prior to the trib, then returns with them after the trib, which is NOT written. That's definitely a Yo-Yo.

``I have never said that I am pre-trib. I am anytime rapture view. Anytime before the transgression of desolation (TOD) act by the Antichrist described in 2Thessalonians2:4. Which is what I show on all my charts.

Yo-Yo's go up and down. Without years of delay between the up and down. The post-trib view is the Yo-Yo view.

The anytime rapture view which will be anytime before the transgression of desolation (TOD) act by the Antichrist does not have the church going through the great tribulation like the post-trib view does.

The post-trib Yo-Yo view fails to acknowledge that the bride of Christ comes with Jesus from heaven, Revelation 7-8, Revelation 19:14.

Revelation 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

 

[Trekson]

Oh... I'm definitely not having difficulty with it, nor with following the Revelation 9 through 11 Chapters which gives the events of the LAST THREE TRUMPET-WOE PERIODS.


5th Trumpet - 1st Woe Period:

1. The angel ("star fallen from heaven", i.e., Satan, the angel of the bottomless pit) opens up the pit of hell with smoke coming out.
2. Description of the locusts rising out of the pit; the locusts originally warned about in the Book of Joel.
3. The locusts are shown to 'sting' like a scorpion only those NOT sealed with God's Seal.
4. The locusts are not allowed to hurt any green thing.
5. The locusts are like an army riding horses to battle, with the teeth of lions, but the faces of men, similar description given in Joel.
6. They have a king over them which is Satan, the angel of the bottomless pit.

All those above events happen WITHIN that 5th Trumpet - 1st Woe Period of Time.

Likewise, all the events written WITHIN the 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe happen WITHIN its Period. With the 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe, we see the existences of the new temple in Jerusalem, and the Jews that worship within, with the Gentiles treading the holy city for 42 months; and God's "two witnesses" coming to Jerusalem to prophesy against the beast for 1260 days (that same 42 month period given in days instead). Only once the "two witnesses" finish their 1260 days Testimony are they killed by the beast king who ascends out of the bottomless pit (i.e., Satan), with their dead bodies left laying in the plaza of Jerusalem for three and one half days, does the 7th Trumpet - 3rd Woe Period come, which is about Jesus' return and gathering of His saints.

And then the 7th Trumpet - 3rd Woe is about the events that happen with Christ's RETURN.

Revelation 10 is parenthetical, which means like a musical rest, a break in the description of events, so as to given a bit of other information, like when the 7th angel sounds, ALL Bible prophecy for this present world will be over.

Why did you stop and change the narrative about the 7th trump. which will be fulfilled the exact same way as the 5th and 6th, there is just more of it to fulfill? The 7th trump just has a larger period that ends w/ the first vial.

 

[ewq1938]

Sorry, but the 7th trump is 'not" the last trump spoken of by Paul.

No, it is definitely the 7th and last trump as the events he describes are what happen at the 7th trump.

 

[Davy]

Why did you stop and change the narrative about the 7th trump. which will be fulfilled the exact same way as the 5th and 6th, there is just more of it to fulfill? The 7th trump just has a larger period that ends w/ the first vial.

The 7th Trumpet we are shown in Revelation 10, that when it sounds, all Bible prophecy for this present world will be finished.

Rev 10:7
7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as He hath declared to His servants the prophets.
KJV

That means all the final events written of in Revelation 11 about the 7th Trumpet - 3rd Woe Period happen AT THE SAME TIME, on the same day, in the same hour even. That means all... of the following events...

Rev 11:14-19
14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He shall reign for ever and ever."
16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17 Saying, "We give Thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, Which art, and wast, and art to come; because Thou hast taken to Thee Thy great power, and hast reigned."
18 And the nations were angry, and Thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear Thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in His temple the ark of His testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.
KJV

Notice on that 7th Trumpet - 3rd Woe Period is the time of God's "wrath" with that "Thy wrath is come", and it it is time with... the resurrection, i.e., the "time of the dead". That WRATH is the final wrath of the 7th Vial spoken of in Revelation 16, and on the 6th Seal.

So what I've been trying to get you to understand, is how each of the last three Trumpet-Woe periods have EVENTS that occur within each one. And the succeeding next Woe does not occur until all the EVENTS given within the specific Trumpet-Woe period are completed.

Furthermore, that God's final cup of WRATH occurs at "the time of the dead", i.e., the resurrection when Jesus returns, that points to the 6th Seal timing, the 7th Vial timing, and the 7th Trumpet timing. The 7th Seal is a type of 'selah' rest. So the wrath mentioned on the 6th Seal actually is represented by the final 7th Seal also. Jesus simply used the 7th Seal as a transition only. Thus Jesus comes on 7,7,7. Satan as the false-Messiah comes on 6,6,6.

 

[Trekson]

No, it is definitely the 7th and last trump as the events he describes are what happen at the 7th trump.

The events of the 7th trump ends w/ the 1st vial. The "last" trump is in correlation to the feast of trumpets.

 

[Trekson]

The 7th Trumpet we are shown in Revelation 10, that when it sounds, all Bible prophecy for this present world will be finished.

Rev 10:7
7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as He hath declared to His servants the prophets.
KJV

That means all the final events written of in Revelation 11 about the 7th Trumpet - 3rd Woe Period happen AT THE SAME TIME, on the same day, in the same hour even. That means all... of the following events...

Rev 11:14-19
14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He shall reign for ever and ever."
16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17 Saying, "We give Thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, Which art, and wast, and art to come; because Thou hast taken to Thee Thy great power, and hast reigned."
18 And the nations were angry, and Thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear Thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in His temple the ark of His testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.
KJV

Notice on that 7th Trumpet - 3rd Woe Period is the time of God's "wrath" with that "Thy wrath is come", and it it is time with... the resurrection, i.e., the "time of the dead". That WRATH is the final wrath of the 7th Vial spoken of in Revelation 16, and on the 6th Seal.

So what I've been trying to get you to understand, is how each of the last three Trumpet-Woe periods have EVENTS that occur within each one. And the succeeding next Woe does not occur until all the EVENTS given within the specific Trumpet-Woe period are completed.

Furthermore, that God's final cup of WRATH occurs at "the time of the dead", i.e., the resurrection when Jesus returns, that points to the 6th Seal timing, the 7th Vial timing, and the 7th Trumpet timing. The 7th Seal is a type of 'selah' rest. So the wrath mentioned on the 6th Seal actually is represented by the final 7th Seal also. Jesus simply used the 7th Seal as a transition only. Thus Jesus comes on 7,7,7. Satan as the false-Messiah comes on 6,6,6.

What is finished are the trumpet judgments, there is still more to come.

 

[ewq1938]

The events of the 7th trump ends w/ the 1st vial. The "last" trump is in correlation to the feast of trumpets.

That feast is not what Paul or John spoke about. The last trump is the last of the 7 end times trumps, the 7th and last being when Jesus returns and the dead resurrect.

 

[Trekson]

That feast is not what Paul or John spoke about. The last trump is the last of the 7 end times trumps, the 7th and last being when Jesus returns and the dead resurrect.

I'll post an article about how the feasts are part of the later days, In John 6 when they were speaking of the "last day", they were referencing the "last day" of the Feast of Tabernacles. That feast portrays the time when Messiah will 'tabernacle" (live amongst) w/ men on earth. That last day is when Christ returns at his 2nd advent.

 

[ewq1938]

I'll post an article about how the feasts are part of the later days, In John 6 when they were speaking of the "last day", they were referencing the "last day" of the Feast of Tabernacles. That feast portrays the time when Messiah will 'tabernacle" (live amongst) w/ men on earth. That last day is when Christ returns at his 2nd advent.

No prophecy of the endtimes and second coming ever mention a Jewish feast. It does not exist in NT prophecy so the last trump is the last of the 7.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The Three Woes.

Rev. 8:13 - " And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!"

The first woe is completed by the 5th trump as found in Rev.9:12 - "One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter."
The second woe is completed by the 6th trump and after the Jerusalem earthquake that destroys a tenth of the city and kills 7000 Rev.11:13-14. - "The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly."

The third woe sounds at the 7th trump ( the last time a “woe” is mentioned in Revelation in the KJ ) and is found in Rev. 11:15 - Just after the 7th trump sounds there is a short interlude in the narrative. The 7th trump completes the wrath of the Lamb and the angels are speaking forward in faith about what will come when the wrath of God is completed. Rev. 12:12 tells us what the third woe is" Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time."

This third and final time a woe is mentioned is connected to the originating verse, Rev. 8:13 by the phrase, “woe to the inhabiters of the earth” (This is also the last time that phrase is used in the KJ). Since this is the case, shortly after this verse we find in Rev. 12:14 - "And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent."

We also see in Rev. 13:5 that the Beast out of the Sea (the a/c) is given the equivalent time of 42 months.

As we all know the underlined times given means 3 1/2 yrs. So, here is the inescapable conclusion. At least the first six trumpet judgments must be concluded before the middle of the 70th week.

I've come up with another question and a possible, tentative alternative for my fellow futurists.
Who said that all the seals must be within the context of the 70th week? I've always believed they were but is there any scriptural "proof"?

Here's my tentative alternative. Could WW3 as shown in the 2nd seal begin the 70th week and could the a/c make a covenant based on that war that begins the week? The 1st seal doesn't imply that is when the covenant is signed. The a/c will need some time to earn his rep, so to speak and he comes conquering by deception, not war. Some event has to put him in the limelight for the folks in Rev. 13:4 to say what they do!
What do you guys think?

You correctly indicated that the third woe sounds at the seventh trumpet because the last three woes are said to be directly related to the last three trumpets in Revelation 8:13. But, then you proceeded to claim that the third woe is described in Revelation 12:12. No, you had it right the first time. The third woe is related directly to the seventh trumpet and the seventh trumpet events are described in Revelation 11:15-18, not in Revelation 12.

 

[Douggg]

The third woe is related directly to the seventh trumpet and the seventh trumpet events are described in Revelation 11:15-18, not in Revelation 12.

In Revelation 11:15-18, where does "woe to the inhabiters of the earth" appear in those verses ?

The third woe to the inhabiters of the earth" is in Revelation 12:12, Satan having great wrath.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

In Revelation 11:15-18, where does "woe to the inhabiters of the earth" appear in those verses ?

Nowhere, but where does that phrase appear in the descriptions of the fifth trumpet (first woe) in Revelation 9:1-11 or the sixth trumpet (second woe in Revelation 9:13-21? Nowhere. So, your point is...pointless. It's obvious that Revelation 11:15-18 describes the seventh trumpet and it's also obvious that the seventh trumpet correlates with the third woe. So, the third woe is described in Revelation 11:15-18.

The third woe to the inhabiters of the earth" is in Revelation 12:12, Satan having great wrath.

View attachment 81072

LOL!!! You have the 7th trumpet/3rd Woe beginning before the 5th trumpet/1st woe. That is absolutely ludicrous. Just because you see a phrase in one verse that matches another phrase in another verses doesn't automatically make those verses directly related. How can you not know that? Look what doing that results in. You not being able to count from 1 to 3 and from 5 to 7. The order of woes is not the third woe followed by the first woe and then the second woe. That makes calling them the first, second and third woes pointless. The order of woes is obviously the first, then the second and then the third. You turn simple things into convoluted messes for no good reason.

The fact that the third woe follows the fulfillment of the first two woes is made very clear in this verse...

Revelation 11:14 The second woe is past. Behold, the third woe is coming quickly.

You somehow have the third woe starting before the second woe, yet this verse clearly indicates that the third woe quickly follows the completion of the second woe. Very simple. And you still don't get it. Sad.

 

[Douggg]

The fact that the third woe follows the fulfillment of the first two woes is made very clear in this verse...

Revelation 11:14 The second woe is past. Behold, the third woe is coming quickly.

Revelation 11:14 The second woe is past. Behold, the third woe is coming quickly.

The term "is past" does not mean fulfilled already, but is past as far as being told what it will be.

Similarly, the term "is past" is used in Revelation 9:12, after the first woe was explained what it will be.

Revelation 9:12 One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter.

Then in remainder of Revelation 9 it was explained what the second woe will be.

"is past" just means explained already. Not fulfilled already.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Revelation 11:14 The second woe is past. Behold, the third woe is coming quickly.

The term "is past" does not mean fulfilled already,

Yes, it does. Stop turning simple things into convoluted things, Douggg. Unless you don't want to be taken seriously. In that case, keep doing that.

but is past as far as being told what it will be.

LOL. No. Ridiculous. You are blatantly twisting the text to fit your doctrine and everyone here can see that. You have no shame.

Similarly, the term "is past" is used in Revelation 9:12, after the first woe was explained what it will be.

So, do you not think the first woe is literally past (completed) after Revelation 9:1-11 is fulfilled?

Revelation 9:12 One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter.

Then in remainder of Revelation 9 it is identified what the second woe will be.

"is past" just means explained already. Not fufilled already.

Wrong. You can't be taken seriously when you try to promote ridiculous nonsense like this.

 

[Douggg]

So, do you not think the first woe is literally past (completed) after Revelation 9:1-11 is fulfilled?

The first woe, the second woe, third woe are all future, not yet fulfilled.

 

[Douggg]

Wrong. You can't be taken seriously when you try to promote ridiculous nonsense like this.

None of the woes have been fulfilled yet. You don't understand the usage of the term "is past" as meaning explained already.

Revelation 11:14 The second woe is past [explained already] ; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly [explained what it will be]. Which was explained in Revelation 12:12.

 

[ewq1938]

Revelation 11:14 The second woe is past. Behold, the third woe is coming quickly.

The term "is past" does not mean fulfilled already,

lol, that is obviously incorrect. Verse 4 does say the second woe is fulfilled in the timeframe of that passage and events.

Same meaning here:

Rev 9:12 One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter.

 

[Trekson]

No prophecy of the endtimes and second coming ever mention a Jewish feast. It does not exist in NT prophecy so the last trump is the last of the 7.

Sorry, the three fall feasts are indeed aspects of the 2nd coming and things don't have to stated out right for them to be true. That's why study is necessary. Most folks look at prophecy and see only the headlines. For a truer understanding one has to dig a little deeper than that.

 

[Trekson]

You correctly indicated that the third woe sounds at the seventh trumpet because the last three woes are said to be directly related to the last three trumpets in Revelation 8:13. But, then you proceeded to claim that the third woe is described in Revelation 12:12. No, you had it right the first time. The third woe is related directly to the seventh trumpet and the seventh trumpet events are described in Revelation 11:15-18, not in Revelation 12.

The trump events consist mostly of everything between when it is sounded to the 1st vial in Rev. 16. Parts of 12 & 13 are pauses to add more details about things that are already happening, but 14:6-16:1 are included w/ the 7th trump as well. And Jesus specifically told us what part of the 7th trump, the 3rd woe was. If you don't want to believe Him, that's up to you.

 

[Douggg]

lol, that is obviously incorrect. Verse 4 does say the second woe is fulfilled in the timeframe of that passage and events.

You made a typo, not verse 4, but verse 14. Revelation 11:14.

The second woe describes a third of mankind killed by an army numbering 200,000, 000. Is anything written in Revelation 11:3-13 describing such an event ? No it does not. Because the phrase "is past" does not mean "fulfilled already". Instead, "is past" means "explained already".