Was Mary Sinless?

[Randy Kluth]

From a discussion I had elsewhere on the nature of Sin...

His flesh had sin... Hear me out. The excuse given for why babies get cancer is that we live in a fallen world and the sins of their ancestors were passed down to them. Mary was Jesus flesh and blood Mother and she had to have sinned.... Even if she didn't King David had dude killed to sleep with Bathsheba.

I don't agree. Jesus' flesh and human spirit had no sin at all. Jesus was likely given Mary's DNA but without Joseph's DNA because Joseph would then have taken credit for a "Work" in producing Christ. Flawed Works had to be atoned for and could not produce Eternal Life. Jesus was Eternal Life and was the product of God's Work alone.

DNA can apparently produce defective combinations, but in Mary's case it appears that God "healed" any possible defects in the order of these chemical combinations and the state they were in. The flesh within her imperfect flesh was rendered perfect as far as Christ's being was concerned.

Because human Works are carried on through reproduction, all of mankind, except for Christ, have inherited a Sin Nature and cannot, apart from Christ's Grace, obtain Eternal Life. All of us inherit human DNA as well as a sin-infected human spirituality that disqualifies us from obtaining Eternal Life apart from Christ's Grace.

We all sin, even though through Christ our New Christian Nature may prevail over our Sin impulses--not perfectly but sufficient to show the Nature that we have chosen to reign in our lives. Inheriting human DNA means we inherit flawed Human Flesh. But the Sin is not in the fleshly flaws, eg diseases but rather in the spiritual corruption.

The flesh and the spirit are two separate things. Before we do any Sin we have already been born with a contaminated spiritual nature and will Sin as soon as we are able.

Again, the trial we undergo in life is in proving what Nature we wish to prevail--our New Nature from Christ, which desires to submit to Christ's Righteousness, or our carnal Nature, which wishes to make choices independent of God, even if at times those choices agree with God's choices.

The real battle is in choosing to partner with God *always,* because this proves what Nature we choose to have and to dominate in Eternity. It is not our Sin Nature that condemns us in Eternity. Rather, it is in our choice for Christ, producing a New Nature, or not.

 

[Armour of God]

Does the bible say that Mary was sinless?
I don't think so. Therefore i don't see how such an assumption can be made

 

[Jesussaves150]

Roman Catholic Church: Teaches that Mary was preserved from all stain of original sin from her conception and committed no personal sin during her life, as defined by the dogma of the Immaculate Conception. She is considered the "new ark of the covenant".

Eastern Orthodox Church:
Refers to Mary as Panagia ("All-Holy"), believing she was free from sin, though they do not typically define this through the Western concept of original sin.

Protestant Perspective: Generally believes, based on scripture (e.g., Romans 3:23), that all humans except Jesus have sinned. They argue that Mary’s own words in Luke 1:47 ("my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Savior") suggest she needed salvation.

Scriptural Arguments: Catholics often cite Gabriel's greeting ("full of grace," kecharitomene) in Luke 1:28 and Genesis 3:15 to support her unique purity. Others interpret this as Mary being highly favored rather than inherently sinless.

Islamic tradition, Mary (Maryam) is considered a, or perhaps the most, righteous and "purified" woman, chosen above all others, and
many Muslim scholars interpret that she and Jesus were protected by God from the touch of Satan at birth, rendering them sinless in a manner similar to, yet distinct from, the Catholic dogma of the Immaculate Conception.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints honors Mary as the chosen, virtuous mother of Jesus Christ, affirming the virgin birth. She is viewed as a "precious and chosen vessel" and a model of discipleship. However, Latter-day Saints do not pray to her or worship her, and they reject the doctrine of her perpetual virginity.

 

[rwb]

From a discussion I had elsewhere on the nature of Sin...


I don't agree. Jesus' flesh and human spirit had no sin at all. Jesus was likely given Mary's DNA but without Joseph's DNA because Joseph would then have taken credit for a "Work" in producing Christ. Flawed Works had to be atoned for and could not produce Eternal Life. Jesus was Eternal Life and was the product of God's Work alone.

DNA can apparently produce defective combinations, but in Mary's case it appears that God "healed" any possible defects in the order of these chemical combinations and the state they were in. The flesh within her imperfect flesh was rendered perfect as far as Christ's being was concerned.

Because human Works are carried on through reproduction, all of mankind, except for Christ, have inherited a Sin Nature and cannot, apart from Christ's Grace, obtain Eternal Life. All of us inherit human DNA as well as a sin-infected human spirituality that disqualifies us from obtaining Eternal Life apart from Christ's Grace.

We all sin, even though through Christ our New Christian Nature may prevail over our Sin impulses--not perfectly but sufficient to show the Nature that we have chosen to reign in our lives. Inheriting human DNA means we inherit flawed Human Flesh. But the Sin is not in the fleshly flaws, eg diseases but rather in the spiritual corruption.

The flesh and the spirit are two separate things. Before we do any Sin we have already been born with a contaminated spiritual nature and will Sin as soon as we are able.

Again, the trial we undergo in life is in proving what Nature we wish to prevail--our New Nature from Christ, which desires to submit to Christ's Righteousness, or our carnal Nature, which wishes to make choices independent of God, even if at times those choices agree with God's choices.

The real battle is in choosing to partner with God *always,* because this proves what Nature we choose to have and to dominate in Eternity. It is not our Sin Nature that condemns us in Eternity. Rather, it is in our choice for Christ, producing a New Nature, or not.

Mary eventually physically died! How then could she or any other human besides Jesus be sinless since death comes from sin?

 

[Wrangler]

I don't agree. Jesus' flesh and human spirit had no sin at all.

This is an unfounded axiom above our pay grade. So much “how many angels can dance on the head of a pin” manmade doctrine.

Scripture doesn’t say God likes ice cream. No need to go there if Scripture is silent on the matter. It’s irrelevant. Same with Mary being like everyone else, a sinner in need of a Savior.

 

[ProDeo]

Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

1Kings 8:46 “If they sin against you— for there is no one who does not sin—and you are angry with them and give them to an enemy, so that they are carried away captive to the land of the enemy, far off or near,

Ps 143:2 Enter not into judgment with your servant, for no one living is righteous before you.

1John 1:8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

And so was Mary, with sin, because we are born with sin.

Put 2 toddlers in a room with loads of beautiful toys, close the door and watch what is going to happen. They will enjoy all the toys one by one until........... one toddler wants to have the toy of the other toddler which the other toddler refuses to give. Then watch the violence.

Who told them ?

Nobody.

I often read (also in this thread), we live in a fallen creation / world, the concept of original sin as a result.

Why not say it more clear --> we are born as fallen creatures in need for Christ.

Depends on who you ask -

Augustine - nagging, pushing, persisting selfish babies who insist the mother's breast.

Paul - Efez 2:3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.

David - Ps 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Instead of sin-nature / original sin I suggest :

1. Fallen state.

2. In need for Christ.

 

[soberxp]

Her childbirth saved her.