Linking a Man to an animal, is a sin - how much a slave to "linking with an animal" are Evolutionists (if sinning makes you a slave)?

[Armour of God]

These are just facts. Here's the testimony of a former YEC, a graduate of the Institute for Creation Research graduate school:
But eventually, by 1994 I was through with young-earth creationISM. Nothing that young-earth creationists had taught me about geology turned out to be true. I took a poll of my ICR graduate friends who have worked in the oil industry. I asked them one question.

"From your oil industry experience, did any fact that you were taught at ICR, which challenged current geological thinking, turn out in the long run to be true? ,"

That is a very simple question. One man, Steve Robertson, who worked for Shell grew real silent on the phone, sighed and softly said 'No!' A very close friend that I had hired at Arco, after hearing the question, exclaimed, "Wait a minute. There has to be one!" But he could not name one. I can not name one. No one else could either. One man I could not reach, to ask that question, had a crisis of faith about two years after coming into the oil industry. I do not know what his spiritual state is now but he was in bad shape the last time I talked to him.

And being through with creationism, I very nearly became through with Christianity. I was on the very verge of becoming an atheist.

Old Earth Creation Science Testimony - Why I Left Young Earth Creationism, by Glenn Morton

A Christian testimony from an old earth creationist. Why I Left Young Earth Creationism, by Glenn Morton

www.oldearth.org

I don't know why you keep bringing up YEC.
That's not what I was arguing

 

[rvmb]

These are just facts. Here's the testimony of a former YEC, a graduate of the Institute for Creation Research graduate school:
But eventually, by 1994 I was through with young-earth creationISM. Nothing that young-earth creationists had taught me about geology turned out to be true. I took a poll of my ICR graduate friends who have worked in the oil industry. I asked them one question.

"From your oil industry experience, did any fact that you were taught at ICR, which challenged current geological thinking, turn out in the long run to be true? ,"

That is a very simple question. One man, Steve Robertson, who worked for Shell grew real silent on the phone, sighed and softly said 'No!' A very close friend that I had hired at Arco, after hearing the question, exclaimed, "Wait a minute. There has to be one!" But he could not name one. I can not name one. No one else could either. One man I could not reach, to ask that question, had a crisis of faith about two years after coming into the oil industry. I do not know what his spiritual state is now but he was in bad shape the last time I talked to him.

And being through with creationism, I very nearly became through with Christianity. I was on the very verge of becoming an atheist.

Old Earth Creation Science Testimony - Why I Left Young Earth Creationism, by Glenn Morton

A Christian testimony from an old earth creationist. Why I Left Young Earth Creationism, by Glenn Morton

www.oldearth.org

Gen 1:1 I'm yet to be convinced that WAS approx 6000 years ago
Gen 1:26 I'm yet to be convinced that WASN'T approx 6000 years ago.

 

[Taken]

Linking a Man to an animal, is a sin …

God Created, Made and Established …
“KINDS” of BEINGS.

Celestial ONE Gender Male Beings…
Called: the HOST
Called: ANGELS
Called: MESSENGERS
Called: HOLY
Called: SONS of God
…That can NOT reproduce with their Same KIND.
…IT CAN against Gods Teaching reproduce with Human Females.

Two Distinct KINDS of (earthly) Beings…
Two Genders; Distinct Male and Female
* 1) Called ~ Animal KIND. (Broadly CATTLE)
* (male AND female) CAN ONLY reproduce with IT’S SAME KIND.

* 2) Called ~ Man KIND. (Broadly HUMAN)
* (male ) CAN ONLY reproduce with IT’S SAME KIND.
(Correction…applies to Male ONLY)

NEVER does Scripture Imply, Hint, Suggest or Teach…THAT
Animals AND Humans can reproduce.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

Armour of God…
May want to relook at a correction, and change your Like.

Female humans Have, Can reproduce with Angels. (Who are all males)

 

[Armour of God]

Armour of God…
May want to relook at a correction, and change your Like.

Female humans Have, Can reproduce with Angels. (Who are all males)

Yes they produced the Nephilim before the great flood. True?

 

[Armour of God]

@The Barbarian

TOE says that new sustainable species arise from random genetic mutation
What is the evidence for this?

 

[VictoryinJesus]

I defy it as a work of the Devil! Lord, we plead your blood over what "linking with an animal" robs us of, in Your Name Amen

Just putting it out there that I don’t believe we evolved from apes. Point is I’m not coming with motive to try to prove that argument.

Yet, the Bible often speaks in terms of men knowing they are beast. To me it’s not “let them see they are ancestors” to actual animals but in nature of spirit. For example when a snake crawled into our birdhouse and consumed the momma and her babies. While it was sad to me because I’d watched the momma feeding her babies everyday…it reminded me how the strong overpower the weak, trapping them caught unaware. It reminded me how we ought not to be this way to trap someone weak and devour them. Jesus Christ often referred to the religious leaders as serpents.

So while I don’t believe we evolved from apes…I do see our old sin ways and spirit nature before Christ as animal. Is there any truth to we evolved from animal? I sure hope so but not from Apes…instead transformed by the mind of Christ into civil toward one another.

Now, people are going to make all sorts of excuses "it’s in the past" "it doesn't mean anything", but that's not good enough!

Paul spoke of we all have had our time in the ways of the flesh…to steal, kill, and destroy. I hear in your “it’s the past” observation that I don’t think we make excuses for the past but there is a past prior to from beast to the knowledge of the full grown man which is Christ.

 

[The Barbarian]

Genesis teaches that man is a created being apart from nature beginning with Adam and Eve .

Yes. Man came from the Earth like other animas. But then God directly gave him a living soul. And that makes all the difference. It's not our bodies; it's our spirit and soul.

 

[Taken]

Just putting it out there that I don’t believe we evolved from apes. Point is I’m not coming with motive to try to prove that argument.

Yet, the Bible often speaks in terms of men knowing they are beast. To me it’s not “let them see they are ancestors” to actual animals but in nature of spirit. For example when a snake crawled into our birdhouse and consumed the momma and her babies. Wild it was sad to me because I’d watched her feeding her babies everyday…it reminded me how the strong overpower the weak, trapping them caught unaware. It reminded me how we ought not to be it mankind’s nature to try to trap someone weak and devour them. Jesus Christ often referred to the religious leaders as serpents.

So while I don’t believe we evolved from apes…I do see our old sin ways and nature before Christ as animals. Is there any truth to we evolved from animals? I sure hope so but not from Apes…instead transformed by the mind of Christ into civil toward one another.





Paul spoke of we all have had our time in the ways of the flesh…to steal, kill, and destroy. I hear in your “it’s the past” observation that I don’t think we make excuses for the past but there is a past prior to from beast to the knowledge of the full grown man which is Christ.

Yes.

Beast prominently means…a literal Animal.

However there IS something called “PRECEPTS”… which means “BEHAVIOR”.

An Angel can “BEHAVE” like a Beast, be called a Beast…yet is still an Angel-Kind of Being.
(As well an Angel can Change it’s Looks, Look like a man, be called a man…yet is still an Angel-Kind of Being.)

A man can “BEHAVE” like a Beast, be called a Beast…yet is still a Man-Kind of Being.
(As well men / wo-man, can Change it’s Looks to Look like a man, woman, animal, an Angel, a beast, a monster…Be Called such things … yet it is still what it was ORIGINALLY Created, Formed, Made and Born.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

Yes. Man came from the Earth like other animas. But then God directly gave him a living soul. And that makes all the difference. It's not our bodies; it's our spirit and soul.

Difference…
spirits Yes.
souls No.

Animals also are given Souls.
Man is naturally created with a natural spirit…(called Truth in the man’s heart)

Animals are not created with natural “spirits”.
They DO NOT have the ability to choose to Believe IN God.
Thus they DO NOT have the ABILITY to SIN.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

Yes they produced the Nephilim before the great flood. True?

Agree.
They Who “Did”…were punished with separation from the Earth.

Do any Angels… continue that practice?
Mystery!

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Yes. Man came from the Earth like other animas. But then God directly gave him a living soul. And that makes all the difference. It's not our bodies; it's our spirit and soul.

1 Corinthians 15:45-49
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening (life-giving) spirit. [46] Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. [47] The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. [48] As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. [49] And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

Adam:
Living soul
Natural
Earthly
We have Bourne the image of the earthly

Christ:
A life-giving spirit
Spirit
The Lord from Heaven
Such are they also that are heavenly
We also bear the image of the heavenly

They are not the same.
No kudos to being “a living soul”
Nature teaches my eyes that animals are different from trees.
When they die I can deny something inside of them leaves.
Even my mother in the nursing home can see this. Even with dementia. She had a living breathing dog but once she went in the nursing home we gave her a battery operated pretend dog that breathes. If the batteries die and the battery operated dog dies…she sees its chest no longer breathe in and out. She notices too.

I said no kudos because we suggest living soul is a victory.
The second man(Christ) became a Life-giving, quickening Spirit. The image of not that which is natural but that of the Spirit of God.

 

[Armour of God]

Do any Angels… continue that practice?
Mystery!

The Nephilim were said to be giants so I think that practice stopped. I think God punished those angels and took them away. They were probably some or all of the angels that followed Satan

 

[The Barbarian]

@The Barbarian

TOE says that new sustainable species arise from random genetic mutation
What is the evidence for this?

Observed speciations.
Dobzhansky T. Drosophila Miranda, a New Species.
Genetics. 1935 Jul;20(4):377-91. doi: 10.1093/genetics/20.4.377.
PMID: 17246767; PMCID: PMC1208619.

Even many creationists now admit the evolution of new species, genera, and sometimes families:

As creationists, we must frequently remind detractors that we do not deny that species vary, change, and even appear over time...Before the time of Charles Darwin, a false idea had crept into the church—the belief in the “fixity” or “immutability” of species. According to this view, each species was created in precisely the same form that we find it today. The Bible nowhere teaches that species are fixed and unchanging.

Speciation

Speciation, the formation of new species, is not evolution in action. Rather, it demonstrates the incredible variety God put within each created kind.

answersingenesis.org

Most informed creationists now set a limit at a "kind", sometimes called a "baramin" a neologism from Hebrew. The idea is that evolutionary change can only proceed to a certain point, after which there is some kind of so-far undetected barrier to further change. Usually, that hypothesized barrier is around the level of family. This was confirmed to me in an email conversation with John Woodmorappe of the ICR. The idea that God could not do this by random mutation is refuted by Thomas Aquinas, who pointed out that Divine Providence could happen by necessity or by contingency as God desires.

St. Thomas Aquinas: Summa Theologica - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

ccel.org

One Biblical problem for this approach is the Bible's comment that bats and birds are the same kind. This tells us that "kind" in the Bible is a functional classification, not a taxonomic one. And a further problem, as noted by YEC Dr. Kurt Wise:
Darwin’s fourth expectation — of stratomorphic series — has been confirmed by such examples as the early bird series,33 the tetrapod series,34,35 the whale series,36 the various mammal series of the Cenozoic37 (for example, the horse series, the camel series, the elephant series, the pig series, the titanothere series, etc.), the Cantius and Plesiadapus primate series,38 and the hominid series.39 Evidence for not just one but for all three of the species level and above types of stratomorphic intermediates expected by macroevolutionary theory is surely strong evidence for macroevolutionary theory. Creationists therefore need to accept this fact.
Dr. Kurt Wise, Toward a Creationist Understanding of Transitional Forms

Dr. Wise goes on to predict that there may be, in the future, a logical creationist theory to account for these problems. But at present, there is none.

Have I mentioned YEC Dr. Gerald Aardsma, whose Biblical Geochronology hypothesis is that the evidence for common descent and great age is a sort of "backstory" God made to match the creation of the universe about 6000 years ago? It's worth a look.

The Biblical Chronologist

Bible chronology, history, and archaeology answers backed by informed, scholarly, conservative research.

www.biblicalchronologist.org

Speciation is not a problem for YEC as most YECs now interpret Scripture. They see descent not as a single tree, but as a series of bushes from a number of original created kinds. Ironically, this idea is consistent with Darwin's original expectation, that God might have created a number of such kinds.

 

[Armour of God]

Observed speciations.
Dobzhansky T. Drosophila Miranda, a New Species.
Genetics. 1935 Jul;20(4):377-91. doi: 10.1093/genetics/20.4.377.
PMID: 17246767; PMCID: PMC1208619.

Even many creationists now admit the evolution of new species, genera, and sometimes families:

As creationists, we must frequently remind detractors that we do not deny that species vary, change, and even appear over time...Before the time of Charles Darwin, a false idea had crept into the church—the belief in the “fixity” or “immutability” of species. According to this view, each species was created in precisely the same form that we find it today. The Bible nowhere teaches that species are fixed and unchanging.

Speciation

Speciation, the formation of new species, is not evolution in action. Rather, it demonstrates the incredible variety God put within each created kind.

answersingenesis.org

Most informed creationists now set a limit at a "kind", sometimes called a "baramin" a neologism from Hebrew. The idea is that evolutionary change can only go proceed to a certain point, after which there is some kind of so-far undetected barrier to further change. Usually, that hypothesized barrier is around the level of family. This was confirmed to me in an email conversation with John Woodmorappe of the ICR. The idea that God could not do this by random mutation is refuted by Thomas Aquinas, who pointed out that Divine Providence could happen by necessity or by contingency as God desires.

St. Thomas Aquinas: Summa Theologica - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

ccel.org

One Biblical problem for this approach is the Bible's comment that bats and birds are the same kind. This tells us that "kind" in the Bible is a functional classification, not a taxonomic one. And a further problem, as noted by YEC Dr. Kurt Wise:
Darwin’s fourth expectation — of stratomorphic series — has been confirmed by such examples as the early bird series,33 the tetrapod series,34,35 the whale series,36 the various mammal series of the Cenozoic37 (for example, the horse series, the camel series, the elephant series, the pig series, the titanothere series, etc.), the Cantius and Plesiadapus primate series,38 and the hominid series.39 Evidence for not just one but for all three of the species level and above types of stratomorphic intermediates expected by macroevolutionary theory is surely strong evidence for macroevolutionary theory. Creationists therefore need to accept this fact.
Dr. Kurt Wise, Toward a Creationist Understanding of Transitional Forms

Dr. Wise goes on to predict that there may be, in the future, a logical creationist theory to account for these problems. But at present, there is none.

Speciation is not a problem for YEC as most YECs now interpret Scripture. They see descent not as a single tree, but as a series of bushes from a number of original created kinds. Ironically, this idea is consistent with Darwin's original expectation, that God might have created a number of such kinds.

You've disappointed me.
I thought you would do better
I was ready to refute the evidence of new species occurring from genetic mutation but you haven't even been able to give one example of it so I don't even have to.
It refutes itself.
New species have not been observed to come from genetic mutation.
I can elaborate if you like but it looks like you have conceded the fact.

So then seeing you supplied no evidence for it do you agree that new species do not come from random genetic mutation?

PS your still persisting with your straw man YEC. Again, I'm not arguing that

 

[The Barbarian]

Gen 1:1 I'm yet to be convinced that WAS approx 6000 years ago
Gen 1:26 I'm yet to be convinced that WASN'T approx 6000 years ago.

Someone was building things in Jericho over 12,000 years ago. But we don't actually know when Adam and Eve were given living souls. For a time, some people adopted polygenism, arguing that not everyone today is a descendant of those two.

Polygenism has historically been heavily used in service of white supremacist ideas and practices, denying a common origin between European and non-European peoples.[2][3] It can be distinguished between Biblical polygenism, describing a Pre-Adamite or Co-Adamite origin of certain races in the context of the Genesis narrative of Adam and Eve, and scientific polygenism, attempting to find a taxonomic basis for ideas of racial science.

Polygenism - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Personally, I believe that Adam and Eve lived long before Jericho was constructed. That is consistent with both scientific data and Scripture.

 

[Armour of God]

@The Barbarian

So then seeing you supplied no evidence for it do you agree that new species do not come from random genetic mutation?

 

[Taken]

The Nephilim were said to be giants so I think that practice stopped. I think God punished those angels and took them away. They were probably some or all of the angels that followed Satan

We don’t learn from Scripture have a Figure of a giants Height…
However we do learn from Scripture a giants Bed size, that would accommodate a giants body…

13.5 Feet long
6 Feet wide

We can surmise a bed would be slightly longer than the giants actual height…

I think it is reasonable to believe Angels tower well over 13 feet, and off-springs of Angels and Female Human women… 13 feet upward.

I think it is reasonable to believe … world average height of adult men is
5’ 5”- 5’10”
average height of adult women is
4’10”- 5’ 5”

And most adults sleep in a bed that is:
6.5 Feet in length.

If giants as well slept in beds longer in length, Than their height…
Their average height seems plausible would be About 12 Feet Tall.

A “boy” (David) estimating 5’ tall, against a giant 12’ tall … an astounding 7’ difference in height…
And not to forget…that one giant had his 4 (giant brothers with him).

David… a boy with courage AND wisdom…

1 Sam 17:
[40] And he took his staff in his hand, and chose him five smooth stones out of the brook, and put them in a shepherd's bag which he had, even in a scrip; and his sling was in his hand: and he drew near to the Philistine.

Lesson… Be prepared!

Agree… no recordable humans… 12’ + tall.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[The Barbarian]

Female humans Have, Can reproduce with Angels. (Who are all males)

Angels were created as immaterial spirits. They don't reproduce at all. They are neither male nor female. God may give them a temporary material body to interact with us, but that is not what they are.

 

[The Barbarian]

So then seeing you supplied no evidence for it

Observed speciation is indeed evidence for it. If by "evidence" you mean specific mutations, yes, there is the evolution of O. gigas from O. lamarckana by a specific polyploidy mutation.

A PRELIMINARY NOTE ON THE CHROMOSOMES OF OEligNOTHERA LAMARCKIANA AND ONE OF ITS MUTANTS, O. GIGAS - PubMed

A PRELIMINARY NOTE ON THE CHROMOSOMES OF OEligNOTHERA LAMARCKIANA AND ONE OF ITS MUTANTS, O. GIGAS

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Because O. gigas cannot reproduce with O. lamarckana, they are, by definition, two species.

So observed speciation by random mutation is an observed fact.
As I pointed out, such evolution is not controversial for most young Earth creationists. Indeed, some of them deny that it's evolution at all, since it doesn't produce a new family or class of organisms.

As you know, even Darwin saw speciation as evolution. Speciation is now differentiated as "macroevolution", the evolution of new species, while change in allele frequencies that does not result in speciation is termed "microevolution."