This is the context of how Dan. 9:24-27 should be considered!

[ScottA]

I just believe what I read in the linear way it was written and it lines up w/ the rest of the prophetic narrative. I always find it amazing that folks can't see and understand this.

If that were actually the case, you would not try to translate or explain it. That is all fine for self-analysis, but to state what you "just believe" publicly as fact, is where it becomes a problem. Moreover, that practice is a violation of Matthew 16:17 and 1 Corinthians 14:28.

Please understand that there is a critical difference between the God-given gift of interpretation and one's own understanding--as “For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts" (Isaiah 55:9). Therefore, "Lean not on your own understanding" (Proverbs 3:5), and take great care not to claim or declare what has not been given to you directly from the God, understanding that to do so is anti-Christ (Matthew 16:17-18). Again, please understand that in Matthew 16:17-18 where Jesus declared how He would build His church--it was Jesus who declared that what Peter said was from the Father--not from his own understanding, not by men of flesh and blood.

 

[ScottA]

Name one what? I think "all" is pretty inclusive.

None of the prophecies from Rev. 6 to the end of the book have been fulfilled yet

"None of the prophecies from Rev. 6" that you claim have not "been fulfilled yet."

Name one such prophecy.

 

[Trekson]

There's nothing more linear than 70 determined fulfilled weeks.

You must be amazed with yourself, since you can't see and understand this.

The 70th week will come in God's timing, there is nothing about the word "determined" that implies they all have to be in one time period, that's your opinion.

 

[covenantee]

The 70th week will come in God's timing, there is nothing about the word "determined" that implies they all have to be in one time period, that's your opinion.

"Cut off" is not my opinion. That's your denial.

But there's no denying the Holy Spirit's inspiration of Daniel's declaration.

And no denying the witness and testimony of more than 1,700 years of the saints of the true Church of God.

 

[Trekson]

If that were actually the case, you would not try to translate or explain it. That is all fine for self-analysis, but to state what you "just believe" publicly as fact, is where it becomes a problem. Moreover, that practice is a violation of Matthew 16:17 and 1 Corinthians 14:28.

Please understand that there is a critical difference between the God-given gift of interpretation and one's own understanding--as “For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts" (Isaiah 55:9). Therefore, "Lean not on your own understanding" (Proverbs 3:5), and take great care not to claim or declare what has not been given to you directly from the God, understanding that to do so is anti-Christ (Matthew 16:17-18). Again, please understand that in Matthew 16:17-18 where Jesus declared how He would build His church--it was Jesus who declared that what Peter said was from the Father--not from his own understanding, not by men of flesh and blood.

I do believe that much of what I have learned comes straight from the HS throughout decades of study, I do so for the sake of other people who haven't seen what I see yet. Regarding 1 Cor. 14:28, I'm not speaking in tongues. Do you agree that the disciples and followers of Christ in His day saw something about Christ, the rest of the nation didn't? In their ministries, they spoke w/ certainly as if they were speaking the truth, they didn't waiver or say possibly or maybe. People tend to get all upset if one claims to have learned something from the HS that they haven't learned "yet" which is why I refrain from comments like, "thus saith the Lord", etc. Of course, like the rest of us, we have our own opinions on certain topics but I try to see things through the lens of the whole prophetic story. There are way more things I'm not sure about then there are about what I am. There are three or four topics that I believe w/ absolute certainty and that I won't waiver on because it was shown to me, but unfortunately because I said that, now folks will start believing I'm a nut case and that is pretty sad. When Daniel 12:4 said that both secular knowledge will increase the closer we get to the times of the end, I believed, many still can't get away from beliefs held centuries ago and that is sad as well. God can't show someone something new if they believe they know it all and have nothing more to learn about prophesy.

 

[Trekson]

"Cut off" is not my opinion. That's your denial.

But there's no denying the Holy Spirit's inspiration of Daniel's declaration.

And no denying the witness and testimony of more than 1,700 years of the saints of the true Church of God.

It's not my opinion either, but the timing of it is and I believe Messiah was cut off on the last day of the 69th week and history has been shown that to be true. If one doesn't think God was behind 1948 then they are willfully blinding themselves regarding prophecy. Here is a simple fact, Jewish prophecies can not be fully understood through a christian lens, we have to build upon the prophecy bases that God built for us in the OT, to reject them is to reject the truth.

 

[Trekson]

"None of the prophecies from Rev. 6" that you claim have not "been fulfilled yet."

Name one such prophecy.

Show me one that was without resorting to symbolism because that is the wrong context to build upon.

 

[Trekson]

"Cut off" is not my opinion. That's your denial.

But there's no denying the Holy Spirit's inspiration of Daniel's declaration.

And no denying the witness and testimony of more than 1,700 years of the saints of the true Church of God.

Your quote: "And no denying the witness and testimony of more than 1,700 years of the saints of the true Church of God." Because of Dan. 12:4 there most certainly is!

 

[ScottA]

I do believe that much of what I have learned comes straight from the HS throughout decades of study, I do so for the sake of other people who haven't seen what I see yet. Regarding 1 Cor. 14:28, I'm not speaking in tongues. Do you agree that the disciples and followers of Christ in His day saw something about Christ, the rest of the nation didn't? In their ministries, they spoke w/ certainly as if they were speaking the truth, they didn't waiver or say possibly or maybe. People tend to get all upset if one claims to have learned something from the HS that they haven't learned "yet" which is why I refrain from comments like, "thus saith the Lord", etc. Of course, like the rest of us, we have our own opinions on certain topics but I try to see things through the lens of the whole prophetic story. There are way more things I'm not sure about then there are about what I am. There are three or four topics that I believe w/ absolute certainty and that I won't waiver on because it was shown to me, but unfortunately because I said that, now folks will start believing I'm a nut case and that is pretty sad. When Daniel 12:4 said that both secular knowledge will increase the closer we get to the times of the end, I believed, many still can't get away from beliefs held centuries ago and that is sad as well. God can't show someone something new if they believe they know it all and have nothing more to learn about prophesy.

It is as you say, you merely "believe."

 

[ScottA]

Show me one that was without resorting to symbolism because that is the wrong context to build upon.

You have failed to name one prophecy from Revelation 6 that is not fulfilled yet. Failed.

 

[covenantee]

It's not my opinion either, but the timing of it is and I believe Messiah was cut off on the last day of the 69th week and history has been shown that to be true. If one doesn't think God was behind 1948 then they are willfully blinding themselves regarding prophecy. Here is a simple fact, Jewish prophecies can not be fully understood through a christian lens, we have to build upon the prophecy bases that God built for us in the OT, to reject them is to reject the truth.

Daniel declares that 70 weeks are cut off, which history has confirmed, and which precludes the dispensationalized decapitation of the 70th week.

The application of Jewish interpretation, which is interpretation by an antichrist, to prophecy about Christ; is a blasphemous abomination of desecration.

This is a Christian forum. If you want to promote pharisaic talmudic zionism, there are other forums which will gladly accommodate you.

 

[covenantee]

Your quote: "And no denying the witness and testimony of more than 1,700 years of the saints of the true Church of God." Because of Dan. 12:4 there most certainly is!

So you deny that there has been witness and testimony of more than 1,700 years of the saints of the true Church of God.

Nothing to do with Daniel 12:4.

 

[claninja]

None of the prophecies from Rev. 6 to the end of the book have been fulfilled yet and timing depends on one's perception. In heaven time, it's only been a couple of days.

Does Jesus, being in heaven, have a different perspective of time than an angel, being in heaven, does?

Also, How do you know it’s only been a couple of days in heaven ( assuming you are referring to 1000 years as a day)? Couldn’t it also just as equally have been millions/billions of years in heaven (since the saying also goes - a day is as 1000 years to God)?

 

[claninja]

Show me one that was without resorting to symbolism because that is the wrong context to build upon.

5th seal.

the first century destruction of Jerusalem fulfills God’s VENGEANCE in regards to all that was written (Luke 21:22) and Jesus charged the first century Pharisees/scribes/religous leaders/etc…with all the righteous blood shed since the foundation of the earth (Matthew 23:35).

So the question becomes, is the vengeance upon those on earth to placate the dead martyrs, as recorded in the fifth seal, completely unrelated to any vengeance spoken about in the OT?

 

[Trekson]

Does Jesus, being in heaven, have a different perspective of time than an angel, being in heaven, does?

Also, How do you know it’s only been a couple of days in heaven ( assuming you are referring to 1000 years as a day)? Couldn’t it also just as equally have been millions/billions of years in heaven (since the saying also goes - a day is as 1000 years to God)?

A thousand years is the only comparative time frame we are given. It is a description of the time variance but I suppose it could be longer or shorter but not by much. If Jesus and the angel are in heaven at the same time, then yes, they would both be on heaven time.

 

[Trekson]

5th seal.

the first century destruction of Jerusalem fulfills God’s VENGEANCE in regards to all that was written (Luke 21:22) and Jesus charged the first century Pharisees/scribes/religous leaders/etc…with all the righteous blood shed since the foundation of the earth (Matthew 23:35).

So the question becomes, is the vengeance upon those on earth to placate the dead martyrs, as recorded in the fifth seal, completely unrelated to any vengeance spoken about in the OT?

If we are speaking of God's vengeance, there is a lot more to come, with the trumpet and vial judgments and Armageddon. There are a lot of unfulfilled prophecies in the OT still to come. Regarding the martyrs of the 5th seal, it is unknown if they have been adding to from the beginning of the church or just in the context of the 70th week. My opinion is that they are part of the GT upon the church in the context of the 70th week. To answer your question, yes I believe the trumpet and vials are retaliation for the satan's wrath upon the church per Rev. 12:17. The possible first mention of the a/c's wrath is found in Dan. 7:25 which is echoed in Rev. 13:7 and there is also Dan. 12:1. There may be some in the other prophetic books but these are all I can think of at this moment. I do appreciate the sincerity of your questions and the politeness with which you ask them even if you don't end up seeing them as I do.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

It's not my opinion either, but the timing of it is and I believe Messiah was cut off on the last day of the 69th week

You are blatantly twisting scripture to make it say what you want it to say. It specifically says that the Messiah would be cut off AFTER the 69th week, not at the end of it. Why are you so dishonest with scripture? Are you that desperate to believe what you want to believe, that you are even willing to change scripture to make it fit your doctrine? Do you think God doesn't know what you're doing to His word?

Daniel 9:25 “Know therefore and understand, That from the going forth of the command To restore and build Jerusalem Until Messiah the Prince, There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; The street shall be built again, and the wall, Even in troublesome times.
26 “And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall [j]be cut off, but not for Himself; And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined.

The word "after" does NOT mean "at the end of". The text indicates that He would be cut off some time after the end of the 69th week without specifying how long after. But, what comes after the 69th week is the 70th week, so that means it's saying He would be cut off during the 70th week. Not at the end of the 69th week, as you falsely claim.

 

[jeffweeder]

It specifically says that the Messiah would be cut off AFTER the 69th week, not at the end of it.

Daniel 9:25 “Know therefore and understand, That from the going forth of the command To restore and build Jerusalem Until Messiah the Prince, There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;

Clearly Messiah is due to arrive after 69 weeks. He arrived and was empowered at his baptism to....,

24 “Seventy weeks [of years, or 490 years] have been decreed for your people and for your holy city (Jerusalem),

to finish the transgression,
to make an end of sins,
to make atonement (reconciliation) for wickedness,
to bring in everlasting righteousness (right-standing with God),
to seal up vision and prophecy and prophet,
and to anoint the Most Holy Place.


Jesus completed the work.

 

[claninja]

A thousand years is the only comparative time frame we are given. It is a description of the time variance but I suppose it could be longer or shorter but not by much. If Jesus and the angel are in heaven at the same time, then yes, they would both be on heaven time.

I think the point, according to the Peter reference , is that God is outside of time. I don’t think it’s a formula for converting heavenly time. 2,000 years on earth is like 2 days (1000 years as a day) OR 730,000,000 million years (a day as 1,000 years) from Gods perspective.

But God can communicate when things are for the distant future in terms of human time, (like Daniel 8:26). So it doesn’t make much sense why God would say things are near “in heaven time”, which could mean millions of years or days.

Why wouldn’t Christ just say it’s for a distant time, just like the angel did in Daniel 8?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Clearly Messiah is due to arrive after 69 weeks.

Yes. The key word there being "after" and not "at the end of", as some try to say in their efforts to change the text. So, not only was He cut off after the 69th week ended, but He arrived after it ended, also. Good point. For people to say He was cut off at the end of the 69th week is just a case of blatantly twisting the text.

He arrived and was empowered at his baptism to....,

24 “Seventy weeks [of years, or 490 years] have been decreed for your people and for your holy city (Jerusalem),

to finish the transgression,
to make an end of sins,
to make atonement (reconciliation) for wickedness,
to bring in everlasting righteousness (right-standing with God),
to seal up vision and prophecy and prophet,
and to anoint the Most Holy Place.


Jesus completed the work.

Yes. As only He could do. It's mind boggling to see these dispensationalists trying to claim that the people of Israel can accomplish those things themselves. Such blasphemy.