THE FAKE KJV ONLY ARGUMENT

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Wrangler

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I imagine this made you very angry. Are any of those people here today?

Much love!
Only angry at IDOLATRY, as is Jesus' God is as well. See 2C.

I know the people believed they were giving me good direction. They were wrong, as one tends to be with IDOLATRY.

When I refer to my Bible's, I tend to downplay the translation except to compliment that particular addition. For instance, in Numbers the CEV translation combines 45 verses into one easy to read verse with a table rather than repeated the same sentence structure a mind-numbing amount of times.

In other words, I don't make doctrinal arguments based on one translation. KJVO folks tend to do this. That's why the translation is so important; their doctrine cannot with academic scrutiny. And that gets them all fired up, invoking all kinds of name calling.
 

Michiah-Imla

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@Michiah-Imla wrote' he claims he was saved by the KJV translation.

Yes I was.

You cannot make void the effects of the word of God.

“So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.” (Isaiah 55:11)

Now I need to back off because your drivel is stirring up my wrath.
 
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Wrangler

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Wrong!

“So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.” (Romans 10:17)

Whether the gospel is spoken to someone, is read to someone, or read by one’s own self, salvation can be found.

Your assertion is falsehood.
For some reason, you are attributing this verse to a translation in a language the words were not originally spoken. Very odd indeed.

By contrast, Aristotle invented logic. It is the idea of logic I value, not the translation of the book that I was introduced to the idea. It's so ridiculous when exposed by comparison but that is the nature of IDOLATRY.

Those opposed contradict themselves. "I'm not an IDOLATOR, I just equate the word of God with a manmade translation into a foreign tongue from the language God's words came to humanity.
 

Wrangler

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Yes I was.

You cannot make void the effects of the word of God.

“So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.” (Isaiah 55:11)

Now I need to back off because your drivel is stirring up my wrath.
Happens when IDOLATRY is exposed, wrath is stirred up. If you criticized any of the MANY translations I read, I wouldn't be upset one little bit. To each his own.

The KJVO crowd rejects that wisdom. There's is the best and anyone who says otherwise is an enemy of God and in league with the devil. You cannot even admit that Jesus did not speak the King's English and neither did Isaiah! Get ahold of yourself man.
 

Wrangler

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I took that mean the KJV TEXT resonated with him more Clearly to Grasp the intent and steps to take to become converted in Christ.

Glory to God,
Taken
I wish that were so but that is not what he wrote and that is not where the fanaticism of KJVO comes from. It's like they believe the trinity ought to be replaced with a quartnery.
  1. F
  2. S
  3. HS
  4. KJV
 
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Michiah-Imla

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For some reason, you are attributing this verse to a translation in a language the words were not originally spoken. Very odd indeed.

Your knowledge has you speaking like an idiot.

So You believe that someone has to hear the gospel in Greek to be saved?

Help me understand your lunacy.

On second thought, don’t!
 

Davy

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No, the fact that some are older isn't my deciding factor, how ever much you desire to impugn my POV.

Well, the age of the mss and the fact that they were buried in the sands of time . . . forget about your science so called, prioritizing those mss makes God false, because they were not available, while God, again, promised to preserve His Word to all generations. He didn't leave the world without a correct Bible for all those centuries.

Having studied manuscripts and translations for many years, I myself prefer the KJV. You don't have to. But apparently you do have to go after those who prefer the King James. That's you.

No surprises on this thread!

I'll leave you to it.

The 'best because it's the oldest' argument by Wescott and Hort doesn't work, and really is silly. There's tons of Gnostic writings twisting the Bible that were done in the 1st and 2nd centuries A.D., as the attack on written Bible Scripture started early by Gnosticism according to Irenaeus. Those Gnostic writings are older than Vaticanus and Sinaiticus, yet they are corruptions of the truth. So just because those Gnostic writings are older, that makes them true?
 
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doctrox

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when the word or phrase is still used in today's English, but with a totally different meaning. Nobody would know that they needed to look the meaning up - they'd just assume the current meaning.
Scripture itself interprets scripture, oftentimes within the very same verse. Most don't know that the Holy Bible (AV) has its own built-in dictionary.

But There are many passages that are omitted due to the usage of a different underlying Greek text.
This is the source of much damage within the body of Christ, because the "underlying Greek text[s ]" are demonstrably corrupted - every one of them.

You wrote: Westcott and Hort were mystics, spiritualists, and necromancers. They admitted ( where?) they were heretics.

Can you provide original sources for these claims!! Be sure to use the definitions that were attached to these words in the 1880s.
Here are your original sources; you are now accountable:

"How certainly I should have been proclaimed heretic!" - Life and Letters of Brooke Foss Westcott, p. 233.

In speaking of heretic Dr. Hampden, Westcott says, “If he be condemned, what will become of me?Life and Letters of Brooke Foss Westcott, p. 94.

And poor Hort, a textual "critic" admitting his cowardice in the face of his dangerous heresy:

[T]his may be cowardice -- I have a sort of craving that our text should be cast upon the world before we deal with matters likely to brand us with suspicion. I mean, a text issued by men who are already known for what will undoubtedly be treated as dangerous heresy, will have great difficulties in finding its way to regions which it might otherwise hope to reach, and whence it would not be easily banished by subsequent alarms.” (Hort’s letter to Westcott regarding their writing other things.) - Life and letters of Fenton John Anthony Hort, p. 445.

But wait! It gets far uglier:

The unsound doctrines in new versions cannot be examined without realizing that they are only symptoms of a disease that was contracted years ago.

New versions (and the ‘new’ church they are producing) owe their occult bend to their underlying Greek text, a novelty produced in the 1880’s by Brooke Foss Westcott, a London Spiritualist, and his cohort, Fenton John Anthony Hort. Secular historians and numerous occult books see Westcott as ‘the Father’ of the current channeling phenomenon, a major source of the ‘doctrines of devils’ driving the New Age movement.

The New Age movement’s expressed goal of infiltrating the evangelical church and gradually changing the bible to conform to its One World Religion is evident in the current new versions. Their words and doctrines prepare the apostate church of these last days to accept the Antichrist, his mark, image, and religion -- Lucifer worship.

This has taken place because the editors of the new versions, as well as the authors of the Greek editions, manuscripts, lexicons and dictionaries used in their compilation, hold beliefs which an orthodox Christian would find shocking. Research opens the door exposing them in seance parlors, mental institutions, prison cells and courtrooms for heresy trials. A surprising number of new version editors have permanently lost their ability to speak (five and still counting).

“But no doubt there was an element of mystery about Westcott. He took his turn preaching in chapel, but he dreaded and disliked the duty and he was quite inaudible.”
(Westcott, Vol. I, p. 198.)

“Dr. Butler calls him [Westcott]...mysterious...His voice reached but a few and was understood by still fewer.”
(Westcott, Vol. I, p. 272.)

Westcott and Hort wrote the Greek text underlying the new versions. A look into their private thoughts, via their personal correspondence preserved in their biographies, reveals the thoughts and activities of these men.

Their activities described here were occurring while they were deciding what does and does not belong in the bible.

Let’s take a look, via a timeline, at some of their New Age heresies (all emphasis mine).

1840
“...he took a strange interest in Mormonism...procuring and studying the Book of Mormon.”
(Westcott, Vol. I, pp. 19-20.)

1842
“In the evening I go with Tom to the wizard; but he does not dare perform before us.”
(Westcott, Vol. I, p. 9.)

1846
“...his diary tells of a walk to Girton with C. B. Scott in which metaphysics was discussed.”
(Westcott, Vol. I, p. 42.)

[R]efers to evangelicals as “dangerous” and “unsound.”
(Westcott, Vol. I, pp. 44-45.)

“New doubts and old superstitions and rationalism, all trouble me...I cannot determine how much we must believe; how much in fact is necessarily required of a member of the church.”
(Westcott, Vol. I, pp. 46-47.)

1847
“So wild, so skeptical am I; I cannot yield.”
(Westcott, Vol. I, p. 52.)

1848
Hort refers to the “...fanaticism of bibliolaters.” He remarks, “The pure Romish view seems to me nearer and more likely to lead to truth than the evangelical.”
(Hort, Vol. I, pp. 76-77)

“Protestantism is only parenthetical and temporary.”
(Hort, Vol. II, p. 31.)

1850
Hort speaks of “...confused evangelical notions...” He says, “I spoke of the gloomy prospect should the Evangelicals carry on their present victory.”
(Hort, Vol. I, pp. 148, 160.)

Westcott was, “troubled in thought about this passage” (blasphemy against the Spirit).
(Westcott, Vol. I, p. 109.)

1851
Hort joins the ‘Philosophical Society’ and comments, “Maurice urged me to give the greatest attention to Plato and Aristotle and to make them the center point of my reading.”
(Hort, Vol. I, pp. 202, 93.)

Hort refers to, “the common orthodox heresy: inspiration.”
(Hort, Vol. I, p. 181.)

Westcott was ordained a ‘priest’ in the Anglican church.

1852
Westcott, in speaking of Revelation, admits, “On this, my views are perhaps extreme.”
(Westcott, Vol. I, p. 225.)

Referring to the traditional Greek Text, then currently in use, Westcott says, “I am most anxious to provide something to replace them.” He admits the drastic changes he plans and calls it, “our proposed recension of the New Testament.”
(Westcott, Vol. I, p. 229.)

1853
Hort “was diligently preparing for his ordination” into the Anglican priesthood. “It was during these weeks with Mr. Westcott, who had come to see him [Hort] at Umberslacle, that the plan of a joint revision of the text of the Greek Testament was first definitely agreed upon.”
(Hort, Vol. I, p. 240.)

“About this time Mr. Daniel Macmillan suggested to him [Hort] that he should take part in an interesting and comprehensive ‘New Testament Scheme’. Hort was to edit the text in conjunction with Mr. Westcott, the latter was to be responsible for a commentary, and Lightfoot was to contribute a New Testament Grammar and Lexicon.” (Hort, Vol. I, p. 241.) “He and I are going to edit a Greek text of the New Testament some two or three years hence if possible.” (Hort, Vol. I, p. 250.) “We came to a distinct and positive understanding about our Greek Text and the details thereof. We still do not wish to be talked about but are going to work at once and hope we may have it out in a little more than a year. This of course gives good employment.”
(Hort, Vol. I, p. 264.)

1856
“Campbell’s book on the Atonement...unluckily he knows nothing except Protestant theology.”
(Hort, Vol. I, p. 322.)

“I hope to go on with the New Testament Text more unremittingly.”
(Hort, Vol. I, p. 355.)

1857
“I am just now chiefly occupied about a proposed Cambridge translation of the whole of Plato...another scheme likely to be carried out if a publisher can be found.”
(Hort, Vol. I, p. 349.)

“The principle literary work of these years was the revision of the Greek Text of the New Testament. All spare hours were devoted to it.” “Evangelicals seem to me perverted...There are, I fear, still more serious differences between us on the subject of authority, especially the authority of the Bible.” “At present many orthodox but rational men are being unawares acted upon by influences which will assuredly bear good fruit in due time if the process is allowed to go on quietly; but I fear that a premature crisis would frighten back many into the merest traditionalism.”
(Hort, Vol. I, p. 400.)

1860
“If only we speak our minds, we shall not be able to avoid giving grave offense to...the miscalled orthodoxy of the day.”
(Hort, Vol, I, p. 421.)

“I...looked at the Christian Observer[‘s]...condemnation of my heresy.”
(Westcott, Vol. I, p. 241.)

“If you make a decided conviction of the absolute infallibility of the New Testament a sine qua non for cooperation, I fear I could not join you.”
(Hort, Vol. I, p. 420.)

“[M]y doubts about infallibility [remain]. Lightfoot wants you to take Hebrews, if it does not go to Benson [Ghostly Guild].”
(Hort, Vol. I, p. 422.)

..continued...
 
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doctrox

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“I reject the word infallibility of Holy Scriptures overwhelmingly.”
(Westcott, Vol. I, p. 207.)

“I am also glad that you take the same provisional ground as to infallibility that I do...In our rapid correspondence about the New Testament, I have been forgetting Plato. (Hort’s letter to Lightfoot, Hort, Vol. I, p. 424.)

1861
“...imputations of heresy and the like against me.”
(Westcott, Vol. I, p. 222.)

1865
“[T]he idea of La Salette [appearances of the Virgin] was that of God revealing Himself, now, not in one form, but in many.”
(Westcott, Vol. I, p. 251.)

During his trip to visit the shrine of the Virgin he stopped in Milan to make “examination of the Muratorian Fragment of the Canon.”
(Westcott, Vol. I, p. 254.)

1866
“All the questionable doctrines which I have ever maintained are in it.”
(Westcott, Vol. I, p. 290.)

1869
“We must somehow contrive...some way of adding to income.”
(Hort, Vol. II, p. 108.)

“Dr. Westcott and myself have for about seventeen years been preparing a Greek text...we hope to have it out early next year.”
(Hort, Vol. II, p. 137.)

“...strike blindly...much evil would result from the public discussion.”
(Westcott, Vol. I, p. 229.)

1871
“I shall aim at what is transcendental in many people's eyes...I suppose I am a communist by nature.”
(Westcott, Vol. I, p. 309.)

Westcott, Hort, and Lightfoot were invited to join the Revision Committee of the New Testament. “Westcott believes we ought to seize the opportunity especially since we three are on the list.”
(Hort, Vol, II, p. 133.)

1873
“Truth is so wonderfully large.”
(Westcott, Vol. I, p. 333.)

1881
“...our Bible as well as our Faith is a mere compromise.”
(Westcott, On the Canon of the New Testament: A General Survey, p. vii.)

1882
“The truth seems to me to be so overwhelmingly vast and manifold that I shrink from drawing any outline except provisionally.”
(Westcott, Vol. II, p. 79)

1889
“Life and truth grow more and more mysterious.”
(Westcott, Vol. II, p. 61.)

1893
“He sometimes with much seriousness professed to be much drawn to beer...”
(Westcott, Vol. II, p. 178.)

“His zeal in the cause of pure beer involved him in a correspondence which was published in the newspapers in the later part of 1893 and his picture together with some of the following words spoken by him, was utilized for the adornment of the advertisement of a brewer of pure beer.” “My idea is that they might have a public house in which good beer alone would be sold...I consider pure beer...to be an innocent and wholesome beverage...substitutes for malt...is not what the purchaser demands nor expects.” [Westcott’s letter written to Brewer’s Society in complaint against inferior beer]
(Westcott, Vol. II, pp. 218-219, 177.)

1899
"But from my Cambridge days I have read the writings of many who are called mystics with much profit."
(Westcott, Vol. II, p. 309.)

Both Westcott and Hort assert that the devil is not a person but a general "power of evil."
(Westcott, The Epistles of St. John: the Greek text, with notes and essays, p. 106.)

Hort’s hostility to the well-known Trinity verse, I John 5:7+8, haunts his writings. “i John v. 7 might be got rid of in a month...” he stabs. (Hort, Vol. II, p. 128.) Today one NIV editor admits, “It is the strongest statement in the KJV on the Trinity.” (The NIV: The Making of a Contemporary Translation, p. 56.) So out it goes from the NIV; its omission is masked to readers because the NIV steals some of verse 8 and calls it verse 7. The NASB’s sleight of hand instead slipped out some of verse 6 and calls it 7.

All modern translations use W-H as its basis.

Caveat emptor.
 
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KUWN

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“I reject the word infallibility of Holy Scriptures overwhelmingly.”
(Westcott, Vol. I, p. 207.)

“I am also glad that you take the same provisional ground as to infallibility that I do...In our rapid correspondence about the New Testament, I have been forgetting Plato. (Hort’s letter to Lightfoot, Hort, Vol. I, p. 424.)

1861
“...imputations of heresy and the like against me.”
(Westcott, Vol. I, p. 222.)

1865
“[T]he idea of La Salette [appearances of the Virgin] was that of God revealing Himself, now, not in one form, but in many.”
(Westcott, Vol. I, p. 251.)

During his trip to visit the shrine of the Virgin he stopped in Milan to make “examination of the Muratorian Fragment of the Canon.”
(Westcott, Vol. I, p. 254.)

1866
“All the questionable doctrines which I have ever maintained are in it.”
(Westcott, Vol. I, p. 290.)

1869
“We must somehow contrive...some way of adding to income.”
(Hort, Vol. II, p. 108.)

“Dr. Westcott and myself have for about seventeen years been preparing a Greek text...we hope to have it out early next year.”
(Hort, Vol. II, p. 137.)

“...strike blindly...much evil would result from the public discussion.”
(Westcott, Vol. I, p. 229.)

1871
“I shall aim at what is transcendental in many people's eyes...I suppose I am a communist by nature.”
(Westcott, Vol. I, p. 309.)

Westcott, Hort, and Lightfoot were invited to join the Revision Committee of the New Testament. “Westcott believes we ought to seize the opportunity especially since we three are on the list.”
(Hort, Vol, II, p. 133.)

1873
“Truth is so wonderfully large.”
(Westcott, Vol. I, p. 333.)

1881
“...our Bible as well as our Faith is a mere compromise.”
(Westcott, On the Canon of the New Testament: A General Survey, p. vii.)

1882
“The truth seems to me to be so overwhelmingly vast and manifold that I shrink from drawing any outline except provisionally.”
(Westcott, Vol. II, p. 79)

1889
“Life and truth grow more and more mysterious.”
(Westcott, Vol. II, p. 61.)

1893
“He sometimes with much seriousness professed to be much drawn to beer...”
(Westcott, Vol. II, p. 178.)

“His zeal in the cause of pure beer involved him in a correspondence which was published in the newspapers in the later part of 1893 and his picture together with some of the following words spoken by him, was utilized for the adornment of the advertisement of a brewer of pure beer.” “My idea is that they might have a public house in which good beer alone would be sold...I consider pure beer...to be an innocent and wholesome beverage...substitutes for malt...is not what the purchaser demands nor expects.” [Westcott’s letter written to Brewer’s Society in complaint against inferior beer]
(Westcott, Vol. II, pp. 218-219, 177.)

1899
"But from my Cambridge days I have read the writings of many who are called mystics with much profit."
(Westcott, Vol. II, p. 309.)

Both Westcott and Hort assert that the devil is not a person but a general "power of evil."
(Westcott, The Epistles of St. John: the Greek text, with notes and essays, p. 106.)

Hort’s hostility to the well-known Trinity verse, I John 5:7+8, haunts his writings. “i John v. 7 might be got rid of in a month...” he stabs. (Hort, Vol. II, p. 128.) Today one NIV editor admits, “It is the strongest statement in the KJV on the Trinity.” (The NIV: The Making of a Contemporary Translation, p. 56.) So out it goes from the NIV; its omission is masked to readers because the NIV steals some of verse 8 and calls it verse 7. The NASB’s sleight of hand instead slipped out some of verse 6 and calls it 7.

All modern translations use W-H as its basis.

Caveat emptor.
I get the feeling that you are not well studied on Textual Criticism. Not one quote would confirm your assertions on the KJV.

The fact of the matter is you should not be reading TRANSLATIONS or VERSIONS. All of us should be studying from the NT manuscripts, and those that are closest to the Originals and their copies. It is sheer laziness to not teach Greek and Hebrew because most students don't want to do that. They are lazy and the reason they study the Versions and Translations, is because they are not serious bible students.
 

doctrox

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I get the feeling that you are not well studied on Textual Criticism.
It is unwise to rely on your "feeling" - even as you're unable to refute the requested and copious documentation; you remain accountable.

Not one quote would confirm your assertions on the KJV.
What "assertions"?

The fact of the matter is you should not be reading TRANSLATIONS or VERSIONS. All of us should be studying from the NT manuscripts, and those that are closest to the Originals and their copies. It is sheer laziness to not teach Greek and Hebrew because most students don't want to do that. They are lazy and the reason they study the Versions and Translations, is because they are not serious bible students.
...no discernment there, just more of the same humanistic bloviation. Truth is, even a child understands scripture (but evidently you don't).

And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. 2 Tim. 3:15-17 AV

Notice that even a child understands the holy scriptures -- no middlemen wanna-be ‘scholars’ required!

Notice that it is God who gives scripture -- not man. Man does not even feature in this verse.

Notice that the purpose of God, giving to man, God’s inspired scripture is so “that the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.”

False though commonly stated among KJVO.
Rather, the posted documentation is overwhelming; likewise, your naivete.
 
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Armour of God

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I have no problem with the NIV rendering here.



There are many.

But here’s one where the NIV is saying something different from the KJV.

Mark 1:41

KJV

[41] And Jesus, moved with compassion, put forth his hand, and touched him, and saith unto him, I will; be thou clean.

(NIV)

Jesus was indignant. He reached out his hand and touched the man. “I am willing,” he said. “Be clean!”

But There are many passages that are omitted due to the usage of a different underlying Greek text.

Do a search and you will see.

With that particular passage ESV says
"Moved with pity"

NASB says
"Moved with compassion"

I like to use different modern versions cos we often get different perspectives.

The KJV is just too hard for me with its old English. It confuses me
 
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rockytopva

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Any threat of KJVO is pure paranoia schizophrenia as who is like that these days? As far as interpretation a speaker will read from scripture and the listeners will see what they can gather from his interpretation. Even if all read from the KJV they would bring out different messages out of their studies. This is what made people like John Bunyan great... Their ability to bring out uniqueness out of their studies. John Owen, when asked by King Charles why he, a great and learned scholar, went to hear an uneducated tinkerer like John Bunyan preach had this to say: "I would willingly exchange my learning for the tinkerer's power of touching men's hearts."
 

rockytopva

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I will go to church and the message outline will be presented on a screen. I don’t know what version the text is based on but know it reads differently from mine. I would think it rude to ask the speaker what version he is reading out of so I don't ask. I still have the KJV Open Bible given to me by the Freewill Baptist church decades ago. That church has been long ago closed up and I miss the people. The KJV Open Bible will always be a treasured possession of mine.
 

doctrox

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I like to use different modern versions cos we often get different perspectives.
For I am the Lord, I change not (Mal. 3).

Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever. (Heb. 13).

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: that the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. (2 Tim. 3).

The KJV is just too hard for me with its old English. It confuses me
Whenever one relies on his carnal mind to understand any-thing, he is subjecting himself to something other than a truthful answer.

Rather, If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all liberally and without reproach, and it will be given to him. (James 1).

At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. (Mat. 11).
 

rvmb

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With that particular passage ESV says
"Moved with pity"

NASB says
"Moved with compassion"

I like to use different modern versions cos we often get different perspectives.

The KJV is just too hard for me with its old English. It confuses me
>>>"""The KJV is just too hard for me with its old English. It confuses me
Try the :- AKJV - American King James Version
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