Should we as Christians support the State of Israel ?

[Lizbeth]

Yes, he said that. I thought of starting a thread on how people reconcile that to him telling us to buy a sword.

How I reconcile it is about relying on God first, rather than our own abilities.

Another thread I thought of starting is about how we are supposed to be prepared and pray throughout, not “all we can do now is pray” without doing any normal prep. In the OT, the phrase was guard/gather your loins. Thread title: Should Christian’s Be Peaceful or Harmless?

Big difference. Peaceful implies capacity to wage war.

He only told His closest disciples to buy a sword, those who were accompanying Him to Gethsemane. And I believe it was meant to only be a deterrent so they wouldn't get scooped up along with Him.....because when Peter actually used the sword, how did Jesus respond?

Clearly we are instructed in the word to be wise as serpents, but harmless as doves.

 

[Wrangler]

Let me just mention that the translation you chose is incorrect

Huh? A distinction without a difference

salvation is from the Jews. (CSB

salvation is from the Jews. (ESV)

salvation is from the Jews. (NASB)

salvation comes from the Jews. (CJB)

Your question was to whom did God make his covenant.

The Biblical answer is the Jews.

You seem to think writing 12-paragraphs changes this basic fact.

So what does this passage actually say without the spin that you put on it?

I submit you are putting a spin on Scripture, which explicitly says we are grafted into the Jews gift of undeserved Grace (aka salvation), proving Replacement Theology false.

You can't even support your ridiculous idea that God is apolitical with all these verses talking about nations and the Israel nation in particular (aka the Jews). Honestly, everything you say on this point of political involvement is wrong. Every single thing! And it's wrong on multiple levels - past, present and future.

This verse might be reasonably taken to support your claim IF it said salvation comes from the individual man of Jesus. But it doesn't say that! It speaks of salvation coming through the collective, the nation of Israel, the Jewish people as a whole. Jesus is the PRINCE of peace, not the king, meaning, Ecclesiastes 3:8 remains applicable.

[there is] a time for war and a time for peace.​

Islam is at war with the people our salvation comes through, the only democracy in the Middle East, the tip of the spear in heading off Jihad in our streets. We should, therefore, support Israel for theological, moral and military reasons.

 

[Wrangler]

And I believe it was meant to only be a deterrent so they wouldn't get scooped up along with Him.....because when Peter actually used the sword, how did Jesus respond?

A detterent for the Apostles, not for Christ's sacrifice on the cross.

Clearly we are instructed in the word to be wise as serpents, but harmless as doves.

You must realize how being armed makes one not harmless, right?

 

[Lizbeth]

Yes, @Lizbeth ...Erika and her birth family are all connected with Israel/Mossad, Epstein, Trump, and the whole child trafficking thing.

Charlie was also born in, and groomed from young to go into the Christian evangelical spotlight. I'm not saying he never knew Christ. I believe he did, and the evidence being unearthed is that he was beginning to wake up to the wrongness of the genocide in Gaza, the Israeli involvement in that and trafficking, and when he turned down huge sums of money from Netanyahu, and also ordered a "DOGE-like" audit of his own organization to see where the money was going .....he was killed. He was supposed to influence the younger generation toward Zionism, and he was in line for a governmental role as well. But he was very much against a war with Iran, and told people closest to him that he believed he would die young. It seems this rebellion against his cult handlers was the reason for that.

Erika already had a history connection with human trafficking through her organization in Romania. She was connected with Trump, the military, Israel/Mossad ...and Trump is the one who introduced her to Charlie. She is several years older than him. She is what the cult calls a "honeypot." Charlie was oblivious ...but when he began to realize some shady business was going on, he ordered the audit. He was killed before that could happen.

Now, Erika is over the organization and all kinda of Zionism is being moved forward. She's being moved into the political realm. She, like Paula, has embraced her cult role rather than face persecution.

Another one is Pam Bondi. A young pretty blond never gets that close to a president ...especially Trump ....unless they've been born in, programmed, groomed, and handled. She has started breaking down bc of the Epstein fiasco and Trump has moved her out of her position to keep her from outing more info on him. Instead, Trump has placed his yes-man in her stead.

Yes, @Lizbeth ...Erika and her birth family are all connected with Israel/Mossad, Epstein, Trump, and the whole child trafficking thing.

Charlie was also born in, and groomed from young to go into the Christian evangelical spotlight. I'm not saying he never knew Christ. I believe he did, and the evidence being unearthed is that he was beginning to wake up to the wrongness of the genocide in Gaza, the Israeli involvement in that and trafficking, and when he turned down huge sums of money from Netanyahu, and also ordered a "DOGE-like" audit of his own organization to see where the money was going .....he was killed. He was supposed to influence the younger generation toward Zionism, and he was in line for a governmental role as well. But he was very much against a war with Iran, and told people closest to him that he believed he would die young. It seems this rebellion against his cult handlers was the reason for that.

Erika already had a history connection with human trafficking through her organization in Romania. She was connected with Trump, the military, Israel/Mossad ...and Trump is the one who introduced her to Charlie. She is several years older than him. She is what the cult calls a "honeypot." Charlie was oblivious ...but when he began to realize some shady business was going on, he ordered the audit. He was killed before that could happen.

Now, Erika is over the organization and all kinda of Zionism is being moved forward. She's being moved into the political realm. She, like Paula, has embraced her cult role rather than face persecution.

Another one is Pam Bondi. A young pretty blond never gets that close to a president ...especially Trump ....unless they've been born in, programmed, groomed, and handled. She has started breaking down bc of the Epstein fiasco and Trump has moved her out of her position to keep her from outing more info on him. Instead, Trump has placed his yes-man in her stead.

Yes....... a lot of very shady things going on. And it's easy to see how most of the women Trump appoints and hangs around with just happen to be attractive looking. While I agree with his political policies in principle, there are things I don't agree with in how he is carrying out some of the policies and most definitely don't agree with the life he has led or the kind of "ministries" he surrounds himself with.

But I believe the Lord is using him to take on one axis of evil.......and it.remains to be seen whether another axis of evil arises to take its place though. It's just like how in scripture, God uses one world kingdom to take on another world kingdom for His purposes. Persia (Cyrus) taking on Babylon. The Lord is on His throne in all these things.

 

[TLHKAJ]

But I believe the Lord is using him to take on one axis of evil.......and it.remains to be seen whether another axis of evil arises to take its place though. It's just like how in scripture, God uses one world kingdom to take on another world kingdom for His purposes. Persia (Cyrus) taking on Babylon. The Lord is on His throne in all these things.

This is where we differ on his role. I don't believe he's a Cyrus, but a Nimrod/Apollo. He does revere and honor him in his estate.

I also disagree with many of his policies ... specifically the ways he carries his policies out that result in destruction, poverty, and death.

 

[Dan Clarkston]

The Lord is on His throne in all these things.

Yep and He put Trump in warts and all because Trump would support Israel and Trump would not be a friend to abortion and sexual perversion along with booting out many illegal in the US.

These items alone are worth putting up with a few warts

 

[TLHKAJ]

Yep and He put Trump in warts and all because Trump would support Israel and Trump would not be a friend to abortion and sexual perversion along with booting out many illegal in the US.

These items alone are worth putting up with a few warts

God allows people to have what they cry out for. When they reject Him, He gives them a man who will bring judgment. This time is a doozy!

Of course he supports Israel, bc they believe he's their messiah, prince of peace, and king of Jerusalem.

I won't support a child rapist/trafficker in exchange for support of the synagogue of satan ... Ashkenazi jews ...those who say they are Jews and are not. That's the Word.

 

[Dan Clarkston]

Of course he supports Israel, bc they believe he's their messiah, prince of peace, and king of Jerusalem.

I won't support a child rapist/trafficker in exchange for support of the synagogue of satan ... Ashkenazi jews ...those who say they are Jews and are not. That's the Word.

Well then get you a sign and protest on the street corner with all the rest of them.

The Lord put Trump in to support Israel and do what is being down now which was foretold in Psalms 83 so deal with it.

 

[Dan Clarkston]

I won't support a child rapist/trafficker

Yeah so when was Trump convicted in criminal court for this and how many years did he serve in prison?

I'd like to see the proof of your claims.

 

[Wrangler]

If God was for Israel, no one could defeat them…..no man made weapons of mass destruction would be needed.

Just like if God was for delivering the Hebrews he’d need no man to talk to Pharoah … Oh wait!

 

[Dan Clarkston]

Just like if God was for delivering the Hebrews he’d need no man to talk to Pharoah … Oh wait!

He works thru men, which is why the Word of God took upon Himself flesh and became a man

Death came thru man so salvation must come through man

1 Corinthians 15:21
For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

This is due to the Lord having built His entire creation upon seedtime and harvest

 

[Aunty Jane]

@Wrangler this post by @soberxp completely demolished all your weak excuses....did you even read it?

If you did, you failed to address it, for obvious reasons.....

If you didn’t, then again, the reasons are obvious.

In Exodus and Deuteronomy, does God destroy enemies who obstruct His redemptive plan for the sake of that plan, or does He destroy people for the sake of Israel’s enemies? Please give your reasoned analysis.



This is a very profound and important theological question. The key to understanding God’s actions in *Exodus* and *Deuteronomy* lies in recognizing that the two options are not mutually exclusive—they form a complete relationship of **purpose and means**.



Simply put, **God’s central purpose is to accomplish His redemptive plan, and destroying those who are theologically defined as “enemies obstructing that plan” is the necessary and just way to achieve that purpose.**



Below is a reasonable analysis from several levels.



### 1. Primary Motivation: The Accomplishment of the Redemptive Plan

From the beginning of *Exodus*, when God reveals Himself to Moses, He makes it clear that His purpose is first and foremost “redemption”:



- **He hears their suffering:** “I have come down to deliver them from the hand of the Egyptians and to bring them up from that land to a good and broad land, a land flowing with milk and honey.” (Exodus 3:8)

- **He will be their God:** The entire exodus event is not merely about liberation from slavery but about covenant relationship. “You have seen what I did to the Egyptians… Now therefore, if you will indeed obey my voice and keep my covenant, you shall be my treasured possession among all peoples.” (Exodus 19:4–5)



This shows that God’s ultimate purpose is to establish a kingdom of priests belonging to Him, through whom He will bless all nations. **The redemptive plan is the absolute “first cause.”**



### 2. Destroying Enemies: As “Clearing the Obstacles” to Redemption

In the advancement of the redemptive plan, two main “obstructers” appear. God’s dealings with them reveal the interweaving of **justice and redemption**.



#### A. Regarding Egypt: A Dual Act of Judgment and Deliverance

In *Exodus*, God does not destroy Egypt as soon as Israel suffers. The narrative unfolds as a **progressive confrontation**.



- **Pharaoh’s role:** Scripture repeatedly states both that “the LORD hardened Pharaoh’s heart” and that Pharaoh “hardened his own heart.” Narratively, this is a form of “juridical hardening”—God gave Pharaoh over to his stubbornness in order to demonstrate the futility of Egypt’s gods and Pharaoh’s power, and to display His own might through just judgment.

- **God’s declaration:** “I will stretch out my hand and strike Egypt with all my wonders that I will do in it; after that he will let you go.” (Exodus 3:20) Also, “The Egyptians shall know that I am the LORD.” (Exodus 7:5)

- **Analysis:** Here, destruction (the plagues and the Red Sea) is the means to **break through** the barrier to redemption. Egypt was not destroyed simply because it was “Israel’s enemy” in a nationalistic sense, but because Pharaoh set himself against God, holding God’s “firstborn son” (Israel), and thus became the object of divine judgment. **Redemption is the purpose; defeating the obstructer is the necessary warfare to achieve it.**



#### B. Regarding the Canaanite Nations: Judgment and the Preservation of Holiness

In *Deuteronomy*, God commands Israel to drive out and destroy the seven Canaanite nations. This is often a focal point of theological debate.



- **Not based on ethnic hatred:** Deuteronomy 9:4–5 explicitly states that God is driving out the Canaanites **“not because of your righteousness”** but because of **“the wickedness of these nations”** and to fulfill the oath He swore to the patriarchs.

- **The nature of “wickedness”:** Archaeological evidence and biblical descriptions (e.g., Leviticus 18) indicate that Canaanite culture was marked by extreme moral depravity, including child sacrifice, temple prostitution, and perverse sexual practices. God describes the land as “vomiting out” its inhabitants.

- **Analysis:** In this part of the narrative, God acts as the **cosmic Judge**. Israel serves as the instrument of His judgment. Deuteronomy warns that if Israel later commits the same evils, they too will be “vomited out” (Deuteronomy 28:63).

- **Underlying purpose:** If Israel entered Canaan and quickly assimilated to the local religions, the redemptive plan (bringing forth the Messiah from this people to bless all nations) would be strangled in its infancy. Therefore, **destroying the Canaanites was both a just judgment for their “iniquity being full” and a removal of the “source of infection” to preserve the purity of the redemptive plan.**



### 3. Theological Balance: Holy War and Grace

When analyzing these two books, two important balancing points must not be overlooked:



- **Precedent of grace:** Even in the midst of judgment, God shows that He is not merely the “God of Israel.” During the exodus, “a mixed multitude” (various non-Israelites) went up with Israel (Exodus 12:38) and were incorporated into the redeemed community. At Jericho, Rahab the prostitute (Joshua) was saved by faith and became an ancestor of David and Jesus. This shows that God’s focus was never narrowly on ethnic genocide, but on **judgment against sin** and **the establishment of a community of faith**.

- **Ultimate direction of redemption:** The entire Old Testament narrative points toward the New Testament. In *Exodus*, God is the warrior who defeats Pharaoh. But in the Gospel of John, when Jesus confronts the “ruler of this world” (Satan), He accomplishes redemption not by killing Roman soldiers, but through His sacrifice on the cross. **The physical “removal of enemies” in the Old Testament foreshadows Christ’s spiritual destruction of “the one who has the power of death” (Satan) and His tearing down of the dividing wall between peoples in the New Testament.**



### Conclusion

**God destroyed the enemies who obstructed His redemptive plan for the sake of that redemptive plan.**



Reversing the order—“destroying people for the sake of Israel’s enemies”—would reduce God to a tribal deity, contradicting the repeated emphasis in Scripture (especially Deuteronomy) that it was “not because of your righteousness.”



**A reasonable analysis is this:**

In *Exodus* and *Deuteronomy*, God acts as the **righteous cosmic King**. Within a specific historical context, He **judges those powers that, through their sin, have excluded themselves from grace and systematically obstruct His saving purposes**. He does this in order to **establish a holy covenantal people**, thereby **preparing the way for the ultimate salvation of all humanity through Jesus Christ**.



Therefore, the logical relationship between the two options is this: **the redemptive plan is the purpose; judgment on the enemies is the necessary and just surgery on “systemic evil” required to achieve that purpose.**

Those who do bother to read this in depth analysis will see the folly of your support for “the world” (the kingdom you live in) over your support for God’s Kingdom, which will need no military support from any humans with weapons, and which will crush all the kingdoms that rule satan’s world. (Dan 2:44) I support the one who can bring about world peace with an army that will make your military personnel look like toddlers with water pistols.

The old saying applies to many here supporting evil with more evil, not distinguishing between “the world” and “Christianity”...two opposing camps. (John 17:16; 18:36) You cannot have a foot in both.

And not distinguishing literal “Israel” from spiritual “Israel”.....the fact that you don’t support “replacement theology” is because it fights with your own...

God’s will is being done by those who have no blood on their hands or on their conscience because of who they are supporting in these last days. You have chosen your savior.....but he will be an abject disappointment...you see, “a man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still”....no more so that in your vain protests.

Let the readers see by the exchanges here who is speaking the truth from Scripture.

 

[Wrangler]

If you didn’t, then again, the reasons are obvious.

No. I didn’t read it. Didn’t see it really beyond being long. If I have time this weekend, I’ll check it out and may reply to anything new. Obvious reasons? LOL. You don’t address my points beyond putting them in quotes and repeating yourself. But want it presumed that that post is authoritative. Nice Appeal to Authority.

Via axiomatic analysis, I already know the post -if it advocates pacifism - is faulty. How? The historical record. Millions of a Christian’s for centuries acted with violence to defeat Islamic Jihad. The premise that the6 were all not true Christians is laughable, a made up standard.

 

[soberxp]

**Historically, the Crusades: Were they a resistance against the Islamic world or a quest for plunder?**

The motives of the Crusades were not singular. Rather, under the banner of religion, religious ideals were deeply intertwined with secular interests (such as the pursuit of wealth). The two exploited each other, making it difficult to simply label the Crusades as either "resistance" or "plunder."

### ️ The Slogan: Religious Zeal to "Recapture the Holy Land"

The most public and core justification for the Crusades was religious.

- **Recapturing the Holy Land:** At the time, Jerusalem was under Muslim control but remained profoundly important to Christians. In 1095, Pope Urban II called for the recapture of Jerusalem from the Seljuk Turks, promising that those who joined would receive **a plenary indulgence (forgiveness of all sins)** . This immense spiritual reward was an irresistible temptation for medieval Christians burdened by anxiety over sin.
- **Internal Consolidation:** Medieval Western Europe was fragmented by feudalism and rife with violence. Through the concept of "holy war," the papacy sought to channel internal conflicts outward, attempting to establish a world order centered on Rome.

### The Substance: Deeper Secular and Economic Motives

Beneath the veil of religious fervor, various secular, especially economic, motives provided the real driving force behind the Crusades.

- **The Dream of Land and Wealth for Nobles and Knights:** The system of primogeniture (inheritance by the eldest son) left many younger sons as landless knights. The fabled wealth of the Islamic East became their "Promised Land." The desire to seize land and wealth was a primary driver for feudal lords joining the Crusades.
- **The Commercial Ambitions of Merchants:** Merchants from Italian city-states like Venice and Genoa actively provided ships and financing for the Crusades. They sought to use military force to establish trading posts along the eastern Mediterranean coast, monopolizing the lucrative trade in spices, silk, and other luxury goods from the East while sidelining Arab and Byzantine competitors.
- **The Papacy's Quest for Power:** Pope Urban II clearly understood that successfully leading a "holy war" to reclaim the Holy Land would dramatically elevate Rome's authority, placing it above the secular rulers of Europe.

### Complexity and Evolution: From "Holy War" to Corrupted Campaigns

The Crusades spanned nearly 200 years (1096–1291), and their motives were not static. Over time, their character changed dramatically.

- **Atrocities and Distortion:** To finance their expeditions, many knights had to sell ancestral lands or take on crushing debts — the opposite of their initial hopes for riches. This immense sacrifice bred a distorted mentality, leading to widespread atrocities against Jewish and Muslim civilians along the way.
- **The "Color" Changes:** The best example of the Crusades' complex motives is the **Fourth Crusade (1202–1204)** . It completely deviated from its original purpose. Incited by Venetian merchants, the crusaders attacked and sacked **Constantinople (capital of the Byzantine Empire)** — fellow Christians — in a brutal orgy of looting and destruction.
- **Complete Corruption:** After Constantinople was sacked, the crusader leaders did not return the wealth. Instead, they carved up Byzantine territory and established the Latin Empire. This crusade had become nothing short of a naked war of plunder.

---

In summary, the Crusades were the product of multiple motives working together. Their complexity and ever-shifting nature are precisely what make them a true reflection of history. This two-century-long movement ultimately tarnished the ideal of "holy war," leaving behind a complicated and controversial legacy.

 

[soberxp]

In **1 Samuel 15**, where God commanded King Saul to completely destroy the Amalekites and all their possessions (including sheep and cattle), but Saul and the people were tempted and kept the best animals.

Here's the story:

### God's Command
God spoke to Saul through the prophet Samuel: *"Now go and strike Amalek and devote to destruction all that they have. Do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey."* (1 Samuel 15:3) This was a clear and non-negotiable command: the Israelites were not to take any plunder.

### Human Greed
Saul assembled 210,000 troops and won the battle. However, *"Saul and the people spared Agag and the best of the sheep, the oxen, the fattened calves, the lambs, and all that was good, and would not utterly destroy them. All that was despised and worthless they devoted to destruction."* (1 Samuel 15:9) They were tempted by the enemy's possessions and chose to partially disobey God.

### The Confrontation
God regretted making Saul king. When Samuel went to confront him, he heard the sound of sheep and cattle. He asked, *"What then is this bleating of sheep in my ears and the lowing of oxen that I hear?"* (1 Samuel 15:14)

Saul replied: *"They have brought them from the Amalekites, for the people spared the best of the sheep and oxen to sacrifice to the LORD your God, and the rest we have devoted to destruction."* (1 Samuel 15:15)

### The Lesson
Saul's excuse did not please God. Samuel spoke the famous words:
> *"Has the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to listen than the fat of rams."* (1 Samuel 15:22)

This story reveals a profound truth: **God values absolute obedience to His word more than any religious act or "spiritual excuse" that tries to disguise disobedience.** Saul attempted to keep the plunder on the pretext of offering sacrifices, which seemed pious but was actually an offense against God, and it ultimately cost him his kingdom.

 

[soberxp]

This question touches on a core issue in the study of the Crusades: the economic motives behind them. To put it simply, your hypothesis is largely valid, but the logical chain needs to be understood more precisely. The Crusades did indeed **economically open up trade routes to the East and greatly stimulate the prosperity of Mediterranean trade**. However, this was not the stated sacred purpose of "reclaiming the Holy Land" but rather a powerful underlying driver—especially the efforts of **Italian city-states** (such as Venice and Genoa) to **supplant Arab and Byzantine middlemen**.

Regarding your mention of "Persians" — in the context of the Crusades, they were not the main beneficiaries. The dominant power in Persia and Central Asia at the time was the **Seljuk Turks**. Their expansion into the Eastern Roman (Byzantine) Empire was precisely the **immediate trigger** for the First Crusade.

To clarify further, here are the key points:

### ️ The Mixed Motives of the Crusades: Economic Desires Behind the Religious Veneer

The motives of the Crusades were extremely complex, far from a simple religious war—they were a mix of religious fervor, economic greed, and political expansion.

* **Economic Drivers (fundamental force):** By the 11th century, the income from feudal estates in Western Europe could no longer satisfy the growing desires of feudal lords. Many landless knights yearned to plunder land and wealth in the prosperous East. At the same time, Italian merchants hoped to break the Arab and Byzantine monopoly on Eastern trade, establish direct trading posts on the eastern Mediterranean coast, and seize commercial control.
* **Religious Banner (ideological mobilization):** In a medieval society dominated by faith, the Church could effectively inflame popular religious fervor by rallying cries like "reclaim the Holy Land" and "rescue Eastern Christians." This gave the Crusades a sacred cloak and helped expand the Church's power.
* **Political Opportunity (historical trigger):** At the time, the rise of the Seljuk Turks seriously threatened the Byzantine Empire. Their continuous victories in Asia Minor provided the Pope with a perfect excuse to call for "aid to our Eastern brothers."

### The Crusades and the Silk Road: De Facto "Pathfinders"

Although the Crusaders mainly operated in the Levant (the eastern Mediterranean coast) and did not directly advance along the traditional overland Silk Road, their expeditions objectively and profoundly changed the East-West trade pattern:

1. **Opening Trade Routes:** The establishment of Crusader states provided European merchants with secure trading posts, allowing them to **bypass the existing Arab and Byzantine intermediary networks** and directly obtain Eastern luxury goods such as silk and spices.
2. **Boosting Mediterranean Trade:** The Crusades elevated Western Europe's foreign trade to new heights and greatly prospered Mediterranean commerce. Italian city-states like Venice and Genoa gained commercial hegemony as a result.
3. **Creating Demand for Direct Trade:** The exotic treasures and stories of the distant East brought back by Crusaders greatly stimulated consumer demand in European society, planting the seeds for the later Age of Discovery.

### ️ Clarifying the Role of "Persia": A Minor Player Overlooked by the Crusades

In the narrative of the Crusades, the region of Persia was far less important than you might assume.

* **Crusaders Never Reached Persia Proper:** Historically, Crusader military campaigns **never reached the core regions of Persia** (e.g., Baghdad), let alone directly impacted its commercial interests.
* **The Real Opponents Were the Seljuk Turks:** The power controlling Western Asia and Palestine, and acting as the main opponent of the Crusaders, was the **Seljuk Turks**. They were the primary obstacle blocking Europe's traditional trade routes to the East.
* **Trade Circumvented Persia:** While routes through the Persian Gulf were part of East-West trade, the new Mediterranean sea routes opened by the Crusaders bypassed the traditional overland routes through Persia, actually **weakening Persia's role as a trade entrepôt**.

### Summary

In essence, the Crusades were a **secular expedition cloaked in religious garb**. Their core driving force was the desire of Western European feudal lords and Italian merchants for Eastern wealth and trade. The result was the breaking of the old trade pattern and the reshaping of the Mediterranean's commercial landscape. Throughout this process, the true decisive actors who seized the greatest commercial benefits were the **Western European commercial city-states like Venice**, not the distant powers in Persia.

 

[soberxp]

**Question:** Who were the Seljuk Turks, and what is their relationship with the Turkic peoples who invaded China in history?

**Answer:**

The Seljuk Turks were, simply put, **a Turkic-speaking nomadic people who originated in Central Asia, migrated westward, and established a vast empire**. The Turkic peoples who invaded China (more accurately, fought prolonged wars with Chinese dynasties) in Chinese history refer mainly to the **Turkic Khaganate (including the Eastern and Western Turks) that existed on the Mongolian Plateau from the 6th to the 8th century**.

The relationship between them is quite direct: **the Seljuk Turks are precisely the descendants of the western branch of that Turkic Khaganate in Chinese history after its westward migration**. In other words, they are different branches of the same ethnic group at different historical stages and in different geographical regions.

To clarify further, here are the key points:

### 1. Who were the Seljuk Turks? (Core points recap)

- **Origin:** A nomadic people from the northern steppes of Central Asia, belonging to the **Oghuz tribal confederation** (Turkic-speaking).
- **Migration and Islamization:** Migrated westward around the 10th century and converted to **Sunni Islam**.
- **Empire building:** Rose to power in the 11th century, conquered Persia and Mesopotamia, took control of the Arab Abbasid Caliphate, and established the **Great Seljuk Empire**.
- **Key battle:** Defeated the Byzantine Empire at the **Battle of Manzikert** in 1071, occupying Anatolia.
- **Subsequent influence:** Its successor state, the **Sultanate of Rum**, eventually evolved into the **Ottoman Empire**.

### 2. What is their relationship with the Turkic peoples who invaded China in history?

**Essential relationship: Direct bloodline connection — ancestors and descendants.**

- **Common origin:** Both originated from the **Turkic Khaganate** (the "Turks" in Chinese historical records) that rose on the Mongolian Plateau in the mid-6th century. This Khaganate, centered on the Ashina clan, fought prolonged wars with the Sui and Tang dynasties.
- **Westward migration branch:** After the Turkic Khaganate collapsed under Tang attacks in the 8th century, the tribes of the **Western Turks** (especially the Oghuz tribes) migrated westward to Central Asia and the Caspian Sea region.
- **Seljuks as descendants of this westward migration:** In the 10th century, one branch of these westward-migrating Oghuz tribes—the **Qïnïq** clan—converted to Islam under their chieftain Seljuk, gradually becoming the **Seljuk people**. In other words, **the Seljuks are direct descendants of the Western Turkic tribes that migrated westward**.

### 3. An illustrative metaphor

If we compare the **Turkic Khaganate in Chinese history** to the **main trunk** of a tree, then:
- The **Eastern Turks** (who gradually assimilated into other ethnic groups) are a branch growing eastward;
- The **Western Turks** are a thick branch growing westward;
- The **Seljuks** are the **major sub-branch** that grew from the Western Turk branch and eventually blossomed into a significant power.

### 4. Important clarification: They are not the same "invaders"

- **Different time periods:** The Turkic Khaganate in Chinese history was active from the **6th to 8th century**; the Seljuks rose in the **10th–11th century** — a gap of about 300 years.
- **Different geography:** The former operated mainly in the **Mongolian Plateau and northern China**; the latter in **Central Asia, West Asia, and Anatolia**.
- **Different historical roles:** The former were **northern adversaries of the Sui and Tang dynasties**; the latter were **opponents of Byzantium and the Crusaders**, with no direct interaction with ancient China.

### Summary in one sentence:

**The Seljuk Turks are descendants of the western branch of the Western Turkic Khaganate that appears in Chinese history. They share the same origin but represent different branches of Turkic peoples in different historical periods and geographical regions.**

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

Do you?.....Do you know that JW’s actively opposed Hitler’s regime by not supporting it...not giving the Nazi salute, or fighting in Hitler’s armed forces. We were persecuted and many were executed in the Nazi concentration camps for refusing to serve Hitler’s agenda....totally neutral to the whole war effort.

We were not fighting in a war where those who claimed to be Christians were killing their brothers in Christ just because of political ideologies (1 John 4:20-21)......not following corrupt world leaders, sending their young men and women to their deaths for purely political reasons......whose side was God on? Both claimed obedience to his teachings, but betrayed it by their actions.

No it doesn’t....religion never saved anyone...but obedience to Christ will.....and obedience means not returning evil for evil. The world can do that and justify....but we are to be “NO PART OF THE WORLD”.
God will hold the world to an accounting for its bloodshed.....

No human can give any nation a better future.....temporarily perhaps, but not long term. Only God’s Kingdom can bring lasting peace and security to the whole world....not just to parts of it while other parts are fighting and killing one another....peace and security for all.

You have no idea who are pulling his strings....he has no idea who are licking his boots either....not many of them do...

Reggie, I have already explained that there are no good guys in a world ruled by the devil. A lesser of two evils is not much of a choice....when you have an incorruptible King who is ruling his disciples right now, why serve another master?

What religious idols would that be, since we do not have any....God has always used men with spiritual qualification to guide and direct his people.....when has he ever left them without spiritual guidance.....?
He never left them to fend for themselves.

God’s word was used for the foundations of their beliefs and conduct, and they were obligated to obey all that God had told them....we follow the same pattern.....Christianity is not what you do...it’s who you are.
We serve Jesus Christ every day because he is part of who we are, guiding our journey. You obviously know nothing about us from personal experience.....you apparently judge us by hear-say.....they did that to Jesus too....(John 15:18-21)

I clearly understands all such things better than you.

All of the JW would of all been killed if it was up to your lot ! so you were saved by the people who put their neck on the line, and don't forget it !

JW are part of this world regardless.

JW do not serve Christ Jesus in fact, but are only a Religious Cult of Dupes. who sit on their arse and do nothing, because they are good for nothing ! Who sits back and lets Government peddle and makes an idol of that is Gay ? and backs up the abortions on demand, school system exploting children to be nazi like defenders of everything that is depraved !
JW could help out in such regards but only sit on your arse and do not bother to Vote ! so JW are guilty of letting the criminal element run loose.

All people who are not Saved are waiting for the Day that they think Jesus will come back ? to fix your misrable selves, but it will be Satan ! he comes first ! because of all of the un Saved Dupes let him to come to power ! because they serve nonsense !

Sure the Devil will fail in the end ! but at what cost ? JW do not care less about reality of fending off such. you all are on the path to Hell in fact ! that's why JW peddle against Jesus said about such in fact !

One has to be truly Saved now, to be of His ! not looking to the future after the Devil has his way ! for such is like Chooks to the slauter.

Christians should look to becoming truly Saved now ! so one truly understands what we are up against !

JW are slobs ! sure they have some things right and I am not bagging anyone themselves but for the Sect that leads people astray and all Religions are clearly a Buisness first and foremost in fact ! that's why they peddle nonsense and Lie ! One has to come out of the Religious world of deceptions and come truly to Christ Jesus ! as his Israel !

I think it's Best be prepaired, than just sit back and cop a hell of a hiding. Communism is coming it's on it's way and they will kill all religious people regardless ! for their can only be one religion to Socialist Communist and that is of Mans works madness ! Void of Christ Jesus !
Such is a Virtueless spineless people in fact who are owened like Slaves !

The wrighting is on the wall ! They can not even even tell what a woman is ! yet get away with such outright dribble ! it's clearly due to deceptions and Delusions that they are clearly under ! why such because of they Idolise the lowest common denominator and that all people are equal !

Fact is that not all people are equal at all ! was Moses etc etc equal ! Equal under God only ! that's a big diffrence, to this world !
Equality in this world is truly based on people becoming just only Slaves ! who swallow deceptions because they are under delusions.

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

**Question:** Who were the Seljuk Turks, and what is their relationship with the Turkic peoples who invaded China in history?

**Answer:**

The Seljuk Turks were, simply put, **a Turkic-speaking nomadic people who originated in Central Asia, migrated westward, and established a vast empire**. The Turkic peoples who invaded China (more accurately, fought prolonged wars with Chinese dynasties) in Chinese history refer mainly to the **Turkic Khaganate (including the Eastern and Western Turks) that existed on the Mongolian Plateau from the 6th to the 8th century**.

The relationship between them is quite direct: **the Seljuk Turks are precisely the descendants of the western branch of that Turkic Khaganate in Chinese history after its westward migration**. In other words, they are different branches of the same ethnic group at different historical stages and in different geographical regions.

To clarify further, here are the key points:

### 1. Who were the Seljuk Turks? (Core points recap)

- **Origin:** A nomadic people from the northern steppes of Central Asia, belonging to the **Oghuz tribal confederation** (Turkic-speaking).
- **Migration and Islamization:** Migrated westward around the 10th century and converted to **Sunni Islam**.
- **Empire building:** Rose to power in the 11th century, conquered Persia and Mesopotamia, took control of the Arab Abbasid Caliphate, and established the **Great Seljuk Empire**.
- **Key battle:** Defeated the Byzantine Empire at the **Battle of Manzikert** in 1071, occupying Anatolia.
- **Subsequent influence:** Its successor state, the **Sultanate of Rum**, eventually evolved into the **Ottoman Empire**.

### 2. What is their relationship with the Turkic peoples who invaded China in history?

**Essential relationship: Direct bloodline connection — ancestors and descendants.**

- **Common origin:** Both originated from the **Turkic Khaganate** (the "Turks" in Chinese historical records) that rose on the Mongolian Plateau in the mid-6th century. This Khaganate, centered on the Ashina clan, fought prolonged wars with the Sui and Tang dynasties.
- **Westward migration branch:** After the Turkic Khaganate collapsed under Tang attacks in the 8th century, the tribes of the **Western Turks** (especially the Oghuz tribes) migrated westward to Central Asia and the Caspian Sea region.
- **Seljuks as descendants of this westward migration:** In the 10th century, one branch of these westward-migrating Oghuz tribes—the **Qïnïq** clan—converted to Islam under their chieftain Seljuk, gradually becoming the **Seljuk people**. In other words, **the Seljuks are direct descendants of the Western Turkic tribes that migrated westward**.

### 3. An illustrative metaphor

If we compare the **Turkic Khaganate in Chinese history** to the **main trunk** of a tree, then:
- The **Eastern Turks** (who gradually assimilated into other ethnic groups) are a branch growing eastward;
- The **Western Turks** are a thick branch growing westward;
- The **Seljuks** are the **major sub-branch** that grew from the Western Turk branch and eventually blossomed into a significant power.

### 4. Important clarification: They are not the same "invaders"

- **Different time periods:** The Turkic Khaganate in Chinese history was active from the **6th to 8th century**; the Seljuks rose in the **10th–11th century** — a gap of about 300 years.
- **Different geography:** The former operated mainly in the **Mongolian Plateau and northern China**; the latter in **Central Asia, West Asia, and Anatolia**.
- **Different historical roles:** The former were **northern adversaries of the Sui and Tang dynasties**; the latter were **opponents of Byzantium and the Crusaders**, with no direct interaction with ancient China.

### Summary in one sentence:

**The Seljuk Turks are descendants of the western branch of the Western Turkic Khaganate that appears in Chinese history. They share the same origin but represent different branches of Turkic peoples in different historical periods and geographical regions.**

Bagging the Crusades are we. Fool ! Idolising Islam are we ? and idolising Maxrism and Communism as well ?

 

[soberxp]

Bagging the Crusades are we. Fool ! Idolising Islam are we ? and idolising Maxrism and Communism as well ?

Don't talk to me about historical nihilism.