The fallacy of believing Jesus was talking about the temple of stones on the Mount of Olives

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Spiritual Israelite

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If I were to say to a JW, for example, that Christ is undeniably God, this means it is not true? This means it is not undeniable simply because this JW refuses to believe it?
You are not comparing like things here. There is overwhelming evidence in scripture showing that Jesus is God to the point where we can say that it undeniably teaches that Jesus is God. Contrastly, there is NOT overwhelming evidence in scripture to back up your claims about Daniel 9:27, so you can't reasonably claim that it undeniably says what you think it does. I do appreciate that you at least understand that it's partly talking about Jesus confirming the new covenant, but you get the rest of it wrong.
 

Davidpt

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Nonsense. Are you somehow not aware why the physical city and sanctuary were destroyed in 70 AD? It was because of the Jews having cutting off and rejecting the Messiah. The destruction of the city and the sanctuary has a direct relation to the Messiah being cut off.

It would be pretty silly of me, don't you think, if I interpret Matthew 24:15-21 to not be involving 70 AD, and that it is connected with Daniel 9:26, then take verse 26 to mean 70 AD? That is absurd, that is contradictory if one were to do that. It would mean a person doing that is confused and can't make up their mind about what they believe or not believe. Since both can't be true if Daniel 9:26 is connected with Matthew 24:15-21, and clearly it is, to then insist verses 15-21 are not meaning 70 AD, but Daniel 9:26 is.

If verses 15-21 do not equal 70 AD, then neither does verse 26 equal 70 AD. If verse 26 equals 70 AD, then so do verses 15-21 equal 70 AD. Those are the only valid options. Anything else is contradictory.
 
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grafted branch

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if the transgression upon a city is finished, that that means it still gets attacked in the future? Even today this same city is subject to attack and is attacked on occasion. Except the transgression upon it is supposed to already be finished.
In Daniel 9:24 the word “finished” is <3607> which means to restrain, to withhold, to shut up, to keep back. The noun form of that word <3608> means prison, confinement, enclosure.

Some people (including some Premill) are interpreting that to mean Satan being bound, the transgression isn’t finished, it’s restrained in prison for the millennium, then released.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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It would be pretty silly of me, don't you think, if I interpret Matthew 24:15-21 to not be involving 70 AD, and that it is connected with Daniel 9:26, then take verse 26 to mean 70 AD?
Of course it would, but where did I say that it would make sense for you to do that? Nowhere. I believe it's silly of you to not recognize that Daniel 9:26 is talking about the destruction of the physical city and sanctuary standing at the time He was cut off. You are completely missing the context of Daniel 9:26 and that contributes to you not understanding what Matthew 24:15-21 is about.

Also, I will point out once again how absurd it is for you to think that only Luke recorded Jesus's answer to the first question the disciples asked but not Matthew and Mark. That claim is completely ridiculous and unacceptable, but you won't admit it.

That is absurd, that is contradictory if one were to do that.
Why do you waste your time with ridiculous nonsense like this? Was I saying that you should continue to interpret Matthew 24:15-21 the way you currently do and that you only should correct your understanding of Daniel 9:26 so that your understanding of Daniel 9:26 would contradict your understanding of Matthew 24:15-21? No, I was not saying that. I'm saying you need to correct your understanding of both passages.

It would mean a person doing that is confused and can't make up their mind about what they believe or not believe. Since both can't be true if Daniel 9:26 is connected with Matthew 24:15-21, and clearly it is, to then insist verses 15-21 are not meaning 70 AD, but Daniel 9:26 is.
The point I'm making is that Daniel 9:26 is very clearly a reference to the destruction of the physical city of Jerusalem and physical sanctuary because it relates directly to the cutting off of the Messiah. The city of Jerusalem and the temple were destroyed because of the Jews rejecting Jesus as their Messiah and sentencing Him to be crucified. So, you should adjust your understanding of Matthew 24:15-22 and Mark 13:14-20 accordingly while not continuing to think that Matthew and Mark did not record Jesus's answer to the disciples' first question for some unknown, inexplicable reason.

If verses 15-21 do not equal 70 AD, then neither does verse 26 equal 70 AD. If verse 26 equals 70 AD, then so do verses 15-21 equal 70 AD. Those are the only valid options. Anything else is contradictory.
Of course. I did not say otherwise. You once again wasted your time posting something that had nothing to do with the point I was making.
 

CTK

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It would be pretty silly of me, don't you think, if I interpret Matthew 24:15-21 to not be involving 70 AD, and that it is connected with Daniel 9:26, then take verse 26 to mean 70 AD? That is absurd, that is contradictory if one were to do that. It would mean a person doing that is confused and can't make up their mind about what they believe or not believe. Since both can't be true if Daniel 9:26 is connected with Matthew 24:15-21, and clearly it is, to then insist verses 15-21 are not meaning 70 AD, but Daniel 9:26 is.

If verses 15-21 do not equal 70 AD, then neither does verse 26 equal 70 AD. If verse 26 equals 70 AD, then so do verses 15-21 equal 70 AD. Those are the only valid options. Anything else is contradictory.
Reflective narrative:
The Restorative and the Destructive verses
- A Prophetic Divide​

Before continuing into the next two verses—arguably among the most controversial in all of Scripture—it is vital to pause and recognize the prophetic structure God has intentionally given Daniel in chapter 9. These four verses (vv.24–27) form a unified prophecy, yet they are clearly divided into two contrasting halves. Verses 24 and 25 are restorative in tone and purpose. Verses 26 and 27 are destructive—not in opposition to the Messiah, but revealing what must be removed, judged, and overturned because of His arrival. Both halves speak of the Messiah. But they speak of Him in different roles.

In verses 24 and 25, the Messiah is the provider of restoration. He comes to fulfill the covenant, to restore righteousness, to bring back God's presence, and to mark the beginning of a new and final spiritual era. These verses are filled with hope, clarity, and divine certainty. They serve as the prophetic counterpart to the interpretation sequences we saw in Daniel chapters 2, 7, and 8—anchored in time, orderly in structure, and centered on God’s redemptive work. Here, we are told when the Messiah will come, what will be restored before His arrival, and how His appearance fulfills the deepest promises of God. But then comes a turn. Verses 26 and 27 shift the tone. They describe what will happen after the Messiah is revealed, especially among those who reject Him. These verses deal with destruction, judgment, and desolation. They reveal the consequence of rejecting the covenant the Messiah came to confirm. And tragically, it is these two verses that have suffered the greatest distortion over time.

Historically, for centuries after Daniel’s prophecy, and throughout the early Church and the Reformation, interpreters rightly understood this passage as a reference to Christ—not a future antichrist. The Reformers correctly identified the papacy as the little horn described in Daniel 7 and 8, and as the persecuting power of Revelation 13 and 17. This view remained dominant for many generations. But in the late 1500s, a Jesuit priest named Francisco Ribera introduced a radically different interpretation. As part of the Counter-Reformation, Ribera sought to protect the papacy from Reformers' claims by proposing a futurist interpretation. According to this view, Daniel’s 70th week was not fulfilled by Christ but postponed into the distant future. Ribera asserted that the final week refers to a future antichrist who will:

Make a seven-year covenant with Israel.​
Break it after 3.5 years.​
Rebuild the Temple and reinstate sacrifices.​
Persecute believers during a final “tribulation.”​

This theory required inserting a 2,000-year gap between the 69th and 70th weeks—completely severing the prophetic flow of the seventy-week timeline. It effectively removed Christ from the final week and redirected attention away from His atoning work, placing it instead on a future antichrist figure. Though originally designed as a defensive maneuver against Protestant theology, Ribera’s theory gained traction and became widely accepted in modern dispensationalist teaching. However, this approach violates the structure God has given. The seventy weeks were declared “for your people and your holy city”—they are complete, continuous, and unbroken. The timeline is precise: it began in 457 BC and ends in 33/4 AD. The Messiah is revealed exactly on time—at the start of the final week—and fulfills the redemptive plan through His death, resurrection, and the sending of the Holy Spirit.

The seventieth week belongs to Christ, not to a mythical antichrist. So this is what Gabriel has shown Daniel so far:

457 BC marked the start of the fourth and final Great Jubilee cycle, the chazon vision, and the seventy-weeks prophecy.​
God would ensure the full restoration of Jerusalem—its city, its people, its Temple, its sacred vessels, and its covenant cycles—within 69 weeks (483 years).​
The Messiah would be the final element restored—symbolized by the Ark of the Covenant, the first item removed before the exile and the last to return.​
The Messiah would arrive on the first day of the final week, completing the prophecy.​
His role would include confirming the covenant, ending the sacrificial system, fulfilling the six divine objectives of verse 24, and ultimately facing the rejection that would result in judgment.​

Verses 24 and 25 show us the long-awaited arrival of the Messiah—the one who restores the holy things of God. Verses 26 and 27 will now reveal the cost of rejecting Him. The prophetic structure demands our attention. This is not just a passage to be decoded—it is a divine blueprint. The seventy weeks tell one complete story, in two parts: first restoration, then judgment. First the invitation, then the consequence.

It is not about a future despot.​
It is about the Messiah—Jesus Christ—and what He came to restore.​

With the foundation firmly laid, and the Messiah's role in the seventieth week clearly established, we now turn to the final two verses—those that shift from restoration to consequence. Here, Gabriel reveals what happens not only because the Messiah has come, but because He is rejected. The tone changes, the imagery darkens, and the prophecy moves from the hopeful fulfillment of God's plan to the sobering reality of judgment. Yet even in these verses, Christ remains at the center—both as the one who is “cut off” and the one who brings an end to the old order.







 

Davidpt

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Reflective narrative:
The Restorative and the Destructive verses
- A Prophetic Divide​

Before continuing into the next two verses—arguably among the most controversial in all of Scripture—it is vital to pause and recognize the prophetic structure God has intentionally given Daniel in chapter 9. These four verses (vv.24–27) form a unified prophecy, yet they are clearly divided into two contrasting halves. Verses 24 and 25 are restorative in tone and purpose. Verses 26 and 27 are destructive—not in opposition to the Messiah, but revealing what must be removed, judged, and overturned because of His arrival. Both halves speak of the Messiah. But they speak of Him in different roles.

In verses 24 and 25, the Messiah is the provider of restoration. He comes to fulfill the covenant, to restore righteousness, to bring back God's presence, and to mark the beginning of a new and final spiritual era. These verses are filled with hope, clarity, and divine certainty. They serve as the prophetic counterpart to the interpretation sequences we saw in Daniel chapters 2, 7, and 8—anchored in time, orderly in structure, and centered on God’s redemptive work. Here, we are told when the Messiah will come, what will be restored before His arrival, and how His appearance fulfills the deepest promises of God. But then comes a turn. Verses 26 and 27 shift the tone. They describe what will happen after the Messiah is revealed, especially among those who reject Him. These verses deal with destruction, judgment, and desolation. They reveal the consequence of rejecting the covenant the Messiah came to confirm. And tragically, it is these two verses that have suffered the greatest distortion over time.

Historically, for centuries after Daniel’s prophecy, and throughout the early Church and the Reformation, interpreters rightly understood this passage as a reference to Christ—not a future antichrist. The Reformers correctly identified the papacy as the little horn described in Daniel 7 and 8, and as the persecuting power of Revelation 13 and 17. This view remained dominant for many generations. But in the late 1500s, a Jesuit priest named Francisco Ribera introduced a radically different interpretation. As part of the Counter-Reformation, Ribera sought to protect the papacy from Reformers' claims by proposing a futurist interpretation. According to this view, Daniel’s 70th week was not fulfilled by Christ but postponed into the distant future. Ribera asserted that the final week refers to a future antichrist who will:

Make a seven-year covenant with Israel.​
Break it after 3.5 years.​
Rebuild the Temple and reinstate sacrifices.​
Persecute believers during a final “tribulation.”​

This theory required inserting a 2,000-year gap between the 69th and 70th weeks—completely severing the prophetic flow of the seventy-week timeline. It effectively removed Christ from the final week and redirected attention away from His atoning work, placing it instead on a future antichrist figure. Though originally designed as a defensive maneuver against Protestant theology, Ribera’s theory gained traction and became widely accepted in modern dispensationalist teaching. However, this approach violates the structure God has given. The seventy weeks were declared “for your people and your holy city”—they are complete, continuous, and unbroken. The timeline is precise: it began in 457 BC and ends in 33/4 AD. The Messiah is revealed exactly on time—at the start of the final week—and fulfills the redemptive plan through His death, resurrection, and the sending of the Holy Spirit.

The seventieth week belongs to Christ, not to a mythical antichrist. So this is what Gabriel has shown Daniel so far:

457 BC marked the start of the fourth and final Great Jubilee cycle, the chazon vision, and the seventy-weeks prophecy.​
God would ensure the full restoration of Jerusalem—its city, its people, its Temple, its sacred vessels, and its covenant cycles—within 69 weeks (483 years).​
The Messiah would be the final element restored—symbolized by the Ark of the Covenant, the first item removed before the exile and the last to return.​
The Messiah would arrive on the first day of the final week, completing the prophecy.​
His role would include confirming the covenant, ending the sacrificial system, fulfilling the six divine objectives of verse 24, and ultimately facing the rejection that would result in judgment.​

Verses 24 and 25 show us the long-awaited arrival of the Messiah—the one who restores the holy things of God. Verses 26 and 27 will now reveal the cost of rejecting Him. The prophetic structure demands our attention. This is not just a passage to be decoded—it is a divine blueprint. The seventy weeks tell one complete story, in two parts: first restoration, then judgment. First the invitation, then the consequence.

It is not about a future despot.​
It is about the Messiah—Jesus Christ—and what He came to restore.​

With the foundation firmly laid, and the Messiah's role in the seventieth week clearly established, we now turn to the final two verses—those that shift from restoration to consequence. Here, Gabriel reveals what happens not only because the Messiah has come, but because He is rejected. The tone changes, the imagery darkens, and the prophecy moves from the hopeful fulfillment of God's plan to the sobering reality of judgment. Yet even in these verses, Christ remains at the center—both as the one who is “cut off” and the one who brings an end to the old order.








My position is that the final half of the 70th week is reserved for the 42 month reign of the beast. Where it attempts to undo everything Christ accomplished up through the first half of the 70th week, by directing worship to it and away from Christ. At least it makes sense out of this part---and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


Why would anyone assume that the consummation meant here is not meaning the completion of the 70 weeks? A lot of interpreters take it to be meaning 70 AD. Which would mean 70 AD ushered in the completion of the 70 weeks if the consummation meant is meaning the finishing of the 70 weeks. Of course though, the way some try and get around this altogether, this is not meaning during the 70th week, it is meaning outside of the 70th week, and that the 70th week concluded earlier, as in 40 years earlier. What then makes 70 AD relevant in this verse, per that scenario? What would 70 AD have to do with the 70 weeks being finished 40 years earlier, assuming they actually were finished? Why would 70 AD matter at that point? It doesn't add up.
 
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covenantee

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Reflective narrative:
The Restorative and the Destructive verses
- A Prophetic Divide​

Before continuing into the next two verses—arguably among the most controversial in all of Scripture—it is vital to pause and recognize the prophetic structure God has intentionally given Daniel in chapter 9. These four verses (vv.24–27) form a unified prophecy, yet they are clearly divided into two contrasting halves. Verses 24 and 25 are restorative in tone and purpose. Verses 26 and 27 are destructive—not in opposition to the Messiah, but revealing what must be removed, judged, and overturned because of His arrival. Both halves speak of the Messiah. But they speak of Him in different roles.

In verses 24 and 25, the Messiah is the provider of restoration. He comes to fulfill the covenant, to restore righteousness, to bring back God's presence, and to mark the beginning of a new and final spiritual era. These verses are filled with hope, clarity, and divine certainty. They serve as the prophetic counterpart to the interpretation sequences we saw in Daniel chapters 2, 7, and 8—anchored in time, orderly in structure, and centered on God’s redemptive work. Here, we are told when the Messiah will come, what will be restored before His arrival, and how His appearance fulfills the deepest promises of God. But then comes a turn. Verses 26 and 27 shift the tone. They describe what will happen after the Messiah is revealed, especially among those who reject Him. These verses deal with destruction, judgment, and desolation. They reveal the consequence of rejecting the covenant the Messiah came to confirm. And tragically, it is these two verses that have suffered the greatest distortion over time.

Historically, for centuries after Daniel’s prophecy, and throughout the early Church and the Reformation, interpreters rightly understood this passage as a reference to Christ—not a future antichrist. The Reformers correctly identified the papacy as the little horn described in Daniel 7 and 8, and as the persecuting power of Revelation 13 and 17. This view remained dominant for many generations. But in the late 1500s, a Jesuit priest named Francisco Ribera introduced a radically different interpretation. As part of the Counter-Reformation, Ribera sought to protect the papacy from Reformers' claims by proposing a futurist interpretation. According to this view, Daniel’s 70th week was not fulfilled by Christ but postponed into the distant future. Ribera asserted that the final week refers to a future antichrist who will:

Make a seven-year covenant with Israel.​
Break it after 3.5 years.​
Rebuild the Temple and reinstate sacrifices.​
Persecute believers during a final “tribulation.”​

This theory required inserting a 2,000-year gap between the 69th and 70th weeks—completely severing the prophetic flow of the seventy-week timeline. It effectively removed Christ from the final week and redirected attention away from His atoning work, placing it instead on a future antichrist figure. Though originally designed as a defensive maneuver against Protestant theology, Ribera’s theory gained traction and became widely accepted in modern dispensationalist teaching. However, this approach violates the structure God has given. The seventy weeks were declared “for your people and your holy city”—they are complete, continuous, and unbroken. The timeline is precise: it began in 457 BC and ends in 33/4 AD. The Messiah is revealed exactly on time—at the start of the final week—and fulfills the redemptive plan through His death, resurrection, and the sending of the Holy Spirit.

The seventieth week belongs to Christ, not to a mythical antichrist. So this is what Gabriel has shown Daniel so far:

457 BC marked the start of the fourth and final Great Jubilee cycle, the chazon vision, and the seventy-weeks prophecy.​
God would ensure the full restoration of Jerusalem—its city, its people, its Temple, its sacred vessels, and its covenant cycles—within 69 weeks (483 years).​
The Messiah would be the final element restored—symbolized by the Ark of the Covenant, the first item removed before the exile and the last to return.​
The Messiah would arrive on the first day of the final week, completing the prophecy.​
His role would include confirming the covenant, ending the sacrificial system, fulfilling the six divine objectives of verse 24, and ultimately facing the rejection that would result in judgment.​

Verses 24 and 25 show us the long-awaited arrival of the Messiah—the one who restores the holy things of God. Verses 26 and 27 will now reveal the cost of rejecting Him. The prophetic structure demands our attention. This is not just a passage to be decoded—it is a divine blueprint. The seventy weeks tell one complete story, in two parts: first restoration, then judgment. First the invitation, then the consequence.

It is not about a future despot.​
It is about the Messiah—Jesus Christ—and what He came to restore.​

With the foundation firmly laid, and the Messiah's role in the seventieth week clearly established, we now turn to the final two verses—those that shift from restoration to consequence. Here, Gabriel reveals what happens not only because the Messiah has come, but because He is rejected. The tone changes, the imagery darkens, and the prophecy moves from the hopeful fulfillment of God's plan to the sobering reality of judgment. Yet even in these verses, Christ remains at the center—both as the one who is “cut off” and the one who brings an end to the old order.



Amens bro.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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I’m using ‘gap’ in the prophetic sense---a gap in fulfillment, not a break in the text itself. The passage moves from the events surrounding Jerusalem’s fall to the still future coming of the Son of Man, which suggests a long interval between those fulfillments. So maybe I'm using the wrong term then? I'm simply meaning that there are 2000 years between Luke 21:20 and verse 27. That assuming that Christ returns sometime soon, like within 50 years or less.

But in Matthew 24, from verse 15 to verse 30, there is not this same 2000 years between these verses.
Why not? There is no basis whatsoever for your claim. In each case, there is a description of an event that requires those in Judea to flee to the mountains followed some verses later by a description of the second coming of Christ. There is nothing explicit in Luke 21 telling us that there is a time period of at least 2,000 years between Luke 21:20 and Luke 21:27 and, yet, you can still discern that. But, somehow, it's not possible for there to be 2,000 years between a description of an event requiring people in Judea to flee to the mountains and the second coming of Christ in Matthew 24? Where is the consistency in this? If there can be 2,000 years between Luke 21:20 and Luke 21:27 then there is no basis for thinking that there can't also be 2,000 years between Matthew 24:15 and Matthew 24:30. You have to resort to denying that Luke 21:20-24a and Matthew 24:15-22 are parallel passages in order to draw this conclusion despite them so clearly being parallel passages.

Therefore, verses 15-21 can't be involving 70 AD. Because if it is, that would undeniably indicate that the coming meant in verse 30 is not the 2nd coming of Christ in the end of this age. IOW, the coming meant in verse 30 has to immediately follow the tribulation of days meant in verses 15-21, the fact there are no other tribulation of days mentioned after verse 22. Plus, I argue that verses 23-28 are meaning during verses 15-21, and that verses 23-28 are also involving 2 Thessalonians 2. Good luck any Amil that is not a Preterist, but agrees with them about verses 15-21, getting 2 Thessalonians 2 to somehow fit the first century leading up to 70 AD.
Why do you endlessly make straw man arguments? You obviously don't even understand what Amils like me believe. You have proven that over and over again. So, you can't refute what you don't even understand. I am an example of the Amil that is not a Preterist that you mentioned. Why would I want to try to get 2 Thessalonians 2 to fit the first century leading up to 70 AD when that's not how I interpret 2 Thessalonians 2?

It's clues like these why it is no wonder some of us reject that verses 15-21 involve 70 AD. But who cares about any clues, right?
You apparently don't. You just have no idea how little sense that you make. You're not even thinking about how senseless it is to see a 2,000 year time period between the description of an event involving people having to flee Judea into the mountains and the second coming of Christ in one passage (in Luke 21) and claiming that, somehow, the same can't be true in relation to the description of an event involving people having to flee Judea into the mountains and the second coming of Christ in another passage (in Matthew 24 and Mark 13).
 

CTK

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My position is that the final half of the 70th week is reserved for the 42 month reign of the beast. Where it attempts to undo everything Christ accomplished up through the first half of the 70th week, by directing worship to it and away from Christ. At least it makes sense out of this part---and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


Why would anyone assume that the consummation meant here is not meaning the completion of the 70 weeks? A lot of interpreters take it to be meaning 70 AD. Which would mean 70 AD ushered in the completion of the 70 weeks if the consummation meant is meaning the finishing of the 70 weeks. Of course though, the way some try and get around this altogether, this is not meaning during the 70th week, it is meaning outside of the 70th week, and that the 70th week concluded earlier, as in 40 years earlier. What then makes 70 AD relevant in this verse, per that scenario? What would 70 AD have to do with the 70 weeks being finished 40 years earlier, assuming they actually were finished? Why would 70 AD matter at that point? It doesn't add up.
Thanks David and if you do not mind, I would like to discuss our (all within this forum that are participating) different interpretations on this very difficult topic. There are so many separate elements mentioned in your reply. They certainly do interact or connect with each other but perhaps we might attempt to pull each of them out of the equation before we put them back together so they speak to all of the issues / elements not only within Daniel or Matthew but also in Revelation. And of course, you are correct, the verses within those 3 books and others must agree and present one seamless interpretation.

So, what I would like to suggest (initially) is to pull out each issue / element found within your comment above and then we can offer our interpretations on them before we put them back together:

1) Is the second half of the 70th week reserved for the conflict with the beast in Revelation?

2) How or does this affect the worship of Christ during the first half of the final week? Does it take away from the completion of His mission given to Him by God?

3) Why was He crucified in the "midst of the week"? There was still another 3.5 years of the final week, didn't God "set aside" the final week of the prophecy for Jesus to fulfill His requirements? After all, didn't God specifically "set aside" the first 7 weeks of 49 years of the prophecy for His people to complete their part of the restoration process (the physical elements)?

4) What is meant by the AOD, and when does this event take place?

5) What is meant by the term "desolation" and who or what is "desolated"? Does this refer to a physical element or a spiritual one?

6) Who is this "desolation" being "poured out on"? Given this language, does it seem to refer to a physical element-Temple?

7) Does the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD close out the 70 weeks of years prophecy? Did its destruction HAVE to take place within the 490 year prophecy?

8) Did God have a special reason for waiting 40 years before the Temple would be destroyed - after the cross?

9) What do we do, if anything, with the final 3.5years after the cross? Are they simply ignored and discussed no further or is there a purpose for them?

10) Is there any sort of "gap" pretaining to this prophecy?

I think the above questions that I have pulled out of your comments might provide a nice start to addressing the verses in Daniel, Matthew and even in Revelation. But before we begin to discuss our individual interpretations (HOPEFULLY, ONE AT A TIME), those that have been responding to this post might be willing to add their own questions to the above before we begin?


Thanks.
 

covenantee

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Why not? There is no basis whatsoever for your claim. In each case, there is a description of an event that requires those in Judea to flee to the mountains followed some verses later by a description of the second coming of Christ. There is nothing explicit in Luke 21 telling us that there is a time period of at least 2,000 years between Luke 21:20 and Luke 21:27 and, yet, you can still discern that. But, somehow, it's not possible for there to be 2,000 years between a description of an event requiring people in Judea to flee to the mountains and the second coming of Christ in Matthew 24? Where is the consistency in this? If there can be 2,000 years between Luke 21:20 and Luke 21:27 then there is no basis for thinking that there can't also be 2,000 years between Matthew 24:15 and Matthew 24:30. You have to resort to denying that Luke 21:20-24a and Matthew 24:15-22 are parallel passages in order to draw this conclusion despite them so clearly being parallel passages.


Why do you endlessly make straw man arguments? You obviously don't even understand what Amils like me believe. You have proven that over and over again. So, you can't refute what you don't even understand. I am an example of the Amil that is not a Preterist that you mentioned. Why would I want to try to get 2 Thessalonians 2 to fit the first century leading up to 70 AD when that's not how I interpret 2 Thessalonians 2?


You apparently don't. You just have no idea how little sense that you make. You're not even thinking about how senseless it is to see a 2,000 year time period between the description of an event involving people having to flee Judea into the mountains and the second coming of Christ in one passage (in Luke 21) and claiming that, somehow, the same can't be true in relation to the description of an event involving people having to flee Judea into the mountains and the second coming of Christ in another passage (in Matthew 24 and Mark 13).
More amens bro.
 
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Davidpt

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Thanks David and if you do not mind, I would like to discuss our (all within this forum that are participating) different interpretations on this very difficult topic. There are so many separate elements mentioned in your reply. They certainly do interact or connect with each other but perhaps we might attempt to pull each of them out of the equation before we put them back together so they speak to all of the issues / elements not only within Daniel or Matthew but also in Revelation. And of course, you are correct, the verses within those 3 books and others must agree and present one seamless interpretation.

So, what I would like to suggest (initially) is to pull out each issue / element found within your comment above and then we can offer our interpretations on them before we put them back together:

1) Is the second half of the 70th week reserved for the conflict with the beast in Revelation?

2) How or does this affect the worship of Christ during the first half of the final week? Does it take away from the completion of His mission given to Him by God?

3) Why was He crucified in the "midst of the week"? There was still another 3.5 years of the final week, didn't God "set aside" the final week of the prophecy for Jesus to fulfill His requirements? After all, didn't God specifically "set aside" the first 7 weeks of 49 years of the prophecy for His people to complete their part of the restoration process (the physical elements)?

4) What is meant by the AOD, and when does this event take place?

5) What is meant by the term "desolation" and who or what is "desolated"? Does this refer to a physical element or a spiritual one?

6) Who is this "desolation" being "poured out on"? Given this language, does it seem to refer to a physical element-Temple?

7) Does the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD close out the 70 weeks of years prophecy? Did its destruction HAVE to take place within the 490 year prophecy?

8) Did God have a special reason for waiting 40 years before the Temple would be destroyed - after the cross?

9) What do we do, if anything, with the final 3.5years after the cross? Are they simply ignored and discussed no further or is there a purpose for them?

10) Is there any sort of "gap" pretaining to this prophecy?

I think the above questions that I have pulled out of your comments might provide a nice start to addressing the verses in Daniel, Matthew and even in Revelation. But before we begin to discuss our individual interpretations (HOPEFULLY, ONE AT A TIME), those that have been responding to this post might be willing to add their own questions to the above before we begin?


Thanks.

I'll start with the following for now.
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3) Why was He crucified in the "midst of the week"? There was still another 3.5 years of the final week, didn't God "set aside" the final week of the prophecy for Jesus to fulfill His requirements? After all, didn't God specifically "set aside" the first 7 weeks of 49 years of the prophecy for His people to complete their part of the restoration process (the physical elements)?
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Why not at the end of the 70th week? Therefore, there would be no questions pertaining to the 2nd half. Right? Yet He was crucified in the middle of the week, and then we are presented with this to contend with--and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


Then eventually the NT comes about and that it is revealed to us that there is a period of time set aside involving a 42 month reign of the beast. What does one week consist of? 7 Years. What is half of 7 years. 42 months. Is someone trying to tell us something here? Or are we supposed to be so doctrinally biased that we simply ignore and disregard clues like these?

In my mind Scripture interprets Scripture. When Daniel 9 was written, it was already known that there would be a 42 month reign of the beast reserved for the final days of this age. I'm not meaning it was known to the readers of the OT. I'm meaning it was known to God. It's not like the NT comes along first, and now all of a sudden God decides there needs to be a time period reserved for the beast. IOW, it was the plan all along. Way before Christ was born, way before the NT was written, then eventually revealed through books, such as Revelation. These things were already decided.

So when I read things like Daniel 9:26, I apply it spiritually to the time of the 42 month reign of the beast. Because, obviously, the 2nd temple will have already been destroyed by that point. Keeping in mind that the 42 month reign of the beast was already planned when Daniel 9 was written. Except it wasn't revealed until the NT was written.

What's ironic about it. Most interpreters insist Scripture interprets Scripture, but then contradict that by insisting someone's interpretation, such as mine, is incorrect, regardless that I used Scripture to interpret Scripture in order to arrive at what I did. At least I can explain the 2nd half from the text itself. Others would have us believe that the remainder of Daniel 9:27 after Christ goes to the cross, is not pertaining to the remainder of the week, it is pertaining to something outside of the 70th week, 70 AD to many of these interpreters. Then you have to explain what this consummation is all about, and why 70 AD would be relevant in regards to it.
 
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Spiritual Israelite

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I'll start with the following for now.
-------------------------
3) Why was He crucified in the "midst of the week"? There was still another 3.5 years of the final week, didn't God "set aside" the final week of the prophecy for Jesus to fulfill His requirements? After all, didn't God specifically "set aside" the first 7 weeks of 49 years of the prophecy for His people to complete their part of the restoration process (the physical elements)?
----------------------------------
Why not at the end of the 70th week? Therefore, there would be no questions pertaining to the 2nd half. Right? Yet He was crucified in the middle of the week, and then we are presented with this to contend with--and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


Then eventually the NT comes about and that it is revealed to us that there is a period of time set aside involving a 42 month reign of the beast. What does one week consist of? 7 Years. What is half of 7 years. 42 months. Is someone trying to tell us something here? Or are supposed to be so doctrinally biased that we simply ignore and disregard clues like these?
You mean like how you ignore the clue given in Daniel 9:26 showing what the consummation resulting in desolation is about in verse 27?

In my mind Scripture interprets Scripture.
So, why don't you use Daniel 9:26 to interpret verse 27? Why don't you use NT verses to interpret Daniel 9:24 like many others, including myself, do? Instead, you try to relate unrelated verses because of not understanding the big picture.

When Daniel 9 was written, it was already known that there would be a 42 month reign of the beast reserved for the final days of this age. I'm not meaning it was known to the readers of the OT. I'm meaning it was known to God. It's not like the NT comes along first, and now all of a sudden God decides there needs to be a time period reserved for the beast. IOW, it was the plan all along. Way before Christ was born, way before the NT was written, then eventually revealed through books, such as Revelation. These things were already decided.

So when I read things like Daniel 9:26, I apply it spiritually to the time of the 42 month reign of the beast. Because, obviously, the 2nd temple will have already been destroyed by that point. Keeping in mind that the 42 month reign of the beast was already planned when Daniel 9 was written. Except it wasn't revealed until the NT was written.

What's ironic about it. Most interpreters insist Scripture interprets Scripture, but then contradict that by insisting someone's interpretation, such as mine, is incorrect, regardless that I used Scripture to interpret Scripture in order to arrive at what I did.
It's fine that you try to use scripture to interpret scripture. No one is saying you shouldn't do that. You just don't do it very well a lot of times and you end up trying to relate unrelated scriptures. Those who disagree with you are also trying to use scripture to interpret scripture so it's not as if you're the only one trying to do that.
 

CTK

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I'll start with the following for now.
-------------------------
3) Why was He crucified in the "midst of the week"? There was still another 3.5 years of the final week, didn't God "set aside" the final week of the prophecy for Jesus to fulfill His requirements? After all, didn't God specifically "set aside" the first 7 weeks of 49 years of the prophecy for His people to complete their part of the restoration process (the physical elements)?
----------------------------------
Why not at the end of the 70th week? Therefore, there would be no questions pertaining to the 2nd half. Right? Yet He was crucified in the middle of the week, and then we are presented with this to contend with--and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


Then eventually the NT comes about and that it is revealed to us that there is a period of time set aside involving a 42 month reign of the beast. What does one week consist of? 7 Years. What is half of 7 years. 42 months. Is someone trying to tell us something here? Or are we supposed to be so doctrinally biased that we simply ignore and disregard clues like these?

In my mind Scripture interprets Scripture. When Daniel 9 was written, it was already known that there would be a 42 month reign of the beast reserved for the final days of this age. I'm not meaning it was known to the readers of the OT. I'm meaning it was known to God. It's not like the NT comes along first, and now all of a sudden God decides there needs to be a time period reserved for the beast. IOW, it was the plan all along. Way before Christ was born, way before the NT was written, then eventually revealed through books, such as Revelation. These things were already decided.

So when I read things like Daniel 9:26, I apply it spiritually to the time of the 42 month reign of the beast. Because, obviously, the 2nd temple will have already been destroyed by that point. Keeping in mind that the 42 month reign of the beast was already planned when Daniel 9 was written. Except it wasn't revealed until the NT was written.

What's ironic about it. Most interpreters insist Scripture interprets Scripture, but then contradict that by insisting someone's interpretation, such as mine, is incorrect, regardless that I used Scripture to interpret Scripture in order to arrive at what I did. At least I can explain the 2nd half from the text itself. Others would have us believe that the remainder of Daniel 9:27 after Christ goes to the cross, is not pertaining to the remainder of the week, it is pertaining to something outside of the 70th week, 70 AD to many of these interpreters. Then you have to explain what this consummation is all about, and why 70 AD would be relevant in regards to it.
Thanks David, but I noticed that you had commented on more than one element. This will cause us, especially me, to provide a lengthy response that is more like a “buckshot “ approach rather than a rifle fire that is focused on one target.

Ok, you have selected # 3 which deals with the “midst of the week” crucifixion. Just staying with this one topic I would ask you and others to offer their thoughts on this… do you think God did not have a reason? Thanks.
 

CTK

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I'll start with the following for now.
-------------------------
3) Why was He crucified in the "midst of the week"? There was still another 3.5 years of the final week, didn't God "set aside" the final week of the prophecy for Jesus to fulfill His requirements? After all, didn't God specifically "set aside" the first 7 weeks of 49 years of the prophecy for His people to complete their part of the restoration process (the physical elements)?
----------------------------------
Why not at the end of the 70th week? Therefore, there would be no questions pertaining to the 2nd half. Right? Yet He was crucified in the middle of the week, and then we are presented with this to contend with--and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


Then eventually the NT comes about and that it is revealed to us that there is a period of time set aside involving a 42 month reign of the beast. What does one week consist of? 7 Years. What is half of 7 years. 42 months. Is someone trying to tell us something here? Or are we supposed to be so doctrinally biased that we simply ignore and disregard clues like these?

In my mind Scripture interprets Scripture. When Daniel 9 was written, it was already known that there would be a 42 month reign of the beast reserved for the final days of this age. I'm not meaning it was known to the readers of the OT. I'm meaning it was known to God. It's not like the NT comes along first, and now all of a sudden God decides there needs to be a time period reserved for the beast. IOW, it was the plan all along. Way before Christ was born, way before the NT was written, then eventually revealed through books, such as Revelation. These things were already decided.

So when I read things like Daniel 9:26, I apply it spiritually to the time of the 42 month reign of the beast. Because, obviously, the 2nd temple will have already been destroyed by that point. Keeping in mind that the 42 month reign of the beast was already planned when Daniel 9 was written. Except it wasn't revealed until the NT was written.

What's ironic about it. Most interpreters insist Scripture interprets Scripture, but then contradict that by insisting someone's interpretation, such as mine, is incorrect, regardless that I used Scripture to interpret Scripture in order to arrive at what I did. At least I can explain the 2nd half from the text itself. Others would have us believe that the remainder of Daniel 9:27 after Christ goes to the cross, is not pertaining to the remainder of the week, it is pertaining to something outside of the 70th week, 70 AD to many of these interpreters. Then you have to explain what this consummation is all about, and why 70 AD would be relevant in regards to it.
David, sorry but you are right, Scripture does interpret Scripture. But more often than not, it is usually SO difficult to find the pieces that fit along side of them.

Do you agree that God had set aside the last 7 years for Christ? (This is directly connected to the 3.5 year issue you selected).?
 

Davidpt

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Some people (including some Premill) are interpreting that to mean Satan being bound, the transgression isn’t finished, it’s restrained in prison for the millennium, then released.

Does that mean it also includes some Amils interpreting it in that manner as well? Of course though, they wouldn't be taking the millennium to be future still. But that is beside the point. TBH, this is the first I have ever heard of anyone viewing it in this manner. Therefore, I'm not exactly certain what you are meaning?
 

Davidpt

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David, sorry but you are right, Scripture does interpret Scripture. But more often than not, it is usually SO difficult to find the pieces that fit along side of them.

Do you agree that God had set aside the last 7 years for Christ? (This is directly connected to the 3.5 year issue you selected).?

Per my view, Christ is still involved during the 42 month reign of the beast since it is Him that puts an end to it's reign. Where I then connect that with Daniel 8:25 and this---he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.


Where I take the Prince of princes to be meaning Christ. Who else could it be meaning if not Christ? And if this one stands up against Christ, it will apparently be involving an era of time rather than just one single day, or one single moment.
 

CTK

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Per my view, Christ is still involved during the 42 month reign of the beast since it is Him that puts an end to it's reign. Where I then connect that with Daniel 8:25 and this---he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.


Where I take the Prince of princes to be meaning Christ. Who else could it be meaning if not Christ? And if this one stands up against Christ, it will apparently be involving an era of time rather than just one single day, or one single moment.
But w
 

CTK

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Per my view, Christ is still involved during the 42 month reign of the beast since it is Him that puts an end to it's reign. Where I then connect that with Daniel 8:25 and this---he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.


Where I take the Prince of princes to be meaning Christ. Who else could it be meaning if not Christ? And if this one stands up against Christ, it will apparently be involving an era of time rather than just one single day, or one single moment.
But what about # 3? Was the last 7 years set aside just for the Messiah to complete His mission? Why crucified in the “midst of the 7 years?

You are certainly right about 8:25. But he, the one who goes against God is revealed not only in chapter 8 but in 7 and 11. But that discussion should probably come much later.

I believe If we focus on 9:24-27 we will definitely answer the questions above including #3.
 

Davidpt

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But what about # 3? Was the last 7 years set aside just for the Messiah to complete His mission? Why crucified in the “midst of the 7 years?

You are certainly right about 8:25. But he, the one who goes against God is revealed not only in chapter 8 but in 7 and 11. But that discussion should probably come much later.

I believe If we focus on 9:24-27 we will definitely answer the questions above including #3.


So are you saying we should be able to determine that from verses 24-27 alone? If so, I'm not seeing how unless it involves putting the 2nd half of the week on hold, then fulfilling it later. But apparently you don't see it that way yourself.
 

CTK

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So are you saying we should be able to determine that from verses 24-27 alone? If so, I'm not seeing how unless it involves putting the 2nd half of the week on hold, then fulfilling it later. But apparently you don't see it that way yourself.
Thank you, but I am not saying that. But I am saying it is so difficult at times to discover or uncover the reason why God would place something in His scriptures.—- because there is nothing that does have a purpose. We may never find them until we come face to face with Him but we can ask “why is He telling us this, or does this mean something else?

But what if this issue does tie into something else AND it does not detract from the prophecy AND it does not contradict or prevent one your own interpretations?

What is your understanding of points #1,2, 9 and 10?