Four horseman in Revelation

[Marty fox]

Thanks Marty… if you would, please let me know who you believe the little horn is and when did / does he arrive.

Also, what specifically do you disagree with in my interpretation that the papacy is the little horn.

Thanks so much and you and your family are always in my prayers. God bless always.

Thank you for those kind words and prayers.

I believe that Antiochus Epiphanes was the little horn

 

[CTK]

Thank you for those kind words and prayers.

I believe that Antiochus Epiphanes was the little horn

Marty, here is just a cut / paste narrative found in the chapter 7 commentary on Daniel. The little horn cannot come until the cross that occurs during the reign of pagan Rome - the 4th kindom.

Reflective Narrative:
Hidden in the Feet, Revealed in the Horns: God’s Law and God’s People and the coming little horn​

In the grand statue of Daniel 2, four earthly kingdoms rise in succession—each revealed by God as a separate layer of different metals. But it is the fourth kingdom, made of iron, that demands our closest attention. This kingdom, which we know as pagan Rome, was powerful and unrelenting. And yet, God showed that something radical would take place within it.

At the feet of this statue—where iron is strangely mixed with clay—something extraordinary happens. A Stone, not cut by human hands, strikes the image at its feet (Daniel 2:34). This Stone is Christ, and His crucifixion marks the turning point of history. From that moment, the iron-and-clay mixture in the feet is broken apart. It is a spiritual event, not a political one—the clay that had been bound inside the empire of Rome is now separated.

But who is the clay? The answer lies in the way God is revealing His plan of restoration—not merely recounting the rise and fall of kingdoms, but telling a deeper story centered on His covenant people, their return to Jerusalem, and the arrival of the Messiah. At the heart of that story is “pottery clay”—a symbol of the faithful Jews who accepted Jesus after the cross and were softened and reshaped by His Spirit. Before the cross, they were held within the iron of the fourth kingdom—hidden and oppressed. After the cross, the separation of iron and clay symbolizes not only judgment, but freedom. The pottery clay is released—and with them, the Gospel begins to move outward.

Alongside the clay were the ten toes—present in the feet, but not emphasized in the dream itself. Before the cross, these toes were bound within the same iron structure that held the clay. But after the Stone strikes the feet, what had been hidden begins to appear outwardly in history. In Daniel 7, those toes reappear as ten horns growing out of the fourth beast. Horns represent authority, and this shift from toes to horns signals that what was once contained inside the fourth kingdom is now visible, active, and central to the unfolding prophetic story.

This tells us something profound: the ten toes and ten horns are not random anatomy or animal features. They represent the Ten Commandments of God—once bound up with a captive people, now brought into prophetic view as the standard of God’s kingdom confronting the nations touched by Rome. The Stone’s strike does more than fracture a statue; it breaks an invisible bondage. The Messiah enters the fourth kingdom at its weakest point—not to topple Rome with legions of angels, but to sever what no earthly army could touch: the spiritual captivity of His people. Those who receive Him are no longer merely subjects of Rome or keepers of an external code. They become pottery clay in the truest sense: softened, yielded, reshaped by the hands of the living God.

From that fracture point, something begins to happen that Daniel 2 anticipates and Daniel 7 unfolds.

The same people who once carried God’s Law within the confines of a single nation now step out into a pagan world with a message that is both old and new—old, because the Ten Words reveal the character of God; new, because the cross reveals the heart of God, and the Law is no longer merely written on stone but pressed into living hearts. The pottery clay does not abandon the Ten Words as it leaves the feet of the statue; it carries them, now joined to the Gospel of a crucified and risen Christ.

This is why Daniel 7 shows both the people and the “horns” appearing from within the fourth beast. The pottery clay do not rise in their own strength, and the horns do not represent a new law. Rather, what was hidden inside the feet—clay joined to iron, commandments held within a captive people—is now visible on the outside. The Ten Commandments, once contained within Israel under Rome’s heel, emerge as ten horns: visible, active, confronting kings, governors, philosophers, and commoners alike with the unchanging standard of God’s kingdom.

In this way, the Stone’s first strike does not yet grind the statue to powder—that is the work of the final judgment—but it does begin a quiet revolution. The clay is freed from iron’s grip. The Law is freed from national confinement. The Gospel and the commandments go out together, carried by men and women who have seen the crucified Messiah and cannot remain silent. The transformation from toes to horns, from captive clay to commissioned witnesses, is the story of how God turns a crushed people into a conquering testimony—one that will continue to challenge empires until the Stone fills the whole earth.

But there is another figure that rises: a little horn. He appears after the ten horns and brings a different spirit—clever, subtle, and ambitious. He speaks pompous words. And as history moves forward and the fourth beast’s pagan phase is “slain” (Daniel 7:11), this little horn does not fade. Instead, he grows in influence—redefining truth, reordering worship, and eventually turning his words against the Most High.

Before the little horn reaches the climax of judgment, Daniel 7:12 drops a remarkable—and often overlooked—key. “As for the rest of the beasts…” reaches back to Babylon, Medo-Persia, and Greece. Their dominion had already been taken away, yet Daniel is told that “their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.” That is not a throwaway line; it is a prophetic distinction between rule and residue.

It’s one of those “skipping sounds”—a subtle narrative shift that signals something more than it appears. Empires can lose political dominion and still remain alive through their ideas, methods, and spiritual DNA—carried forward into whatever follows. In other words, Daniel is telling us how history moves: kingdoms fall, but their legacies migrate. Babylon, Persia, and Greece do not continue as ruling powers, yet their influence endures—absorbed, repackaged, and transmitted into the next system. This is why the rise of the little horn is not merely a political shift inside the fourth beast; it is a transformation in which earlier currents continue flowing beneath the surface.

And what comes next is not immediately the end of the world, but the fourth kingdom’s internal change—pagan Rome giving way to a religious-political form. That transformation could not mature until after the Messiah’s first coming, when the Gospel was carried into the Gentile world and a new, predominantly Gentile church took root inside the fourth kingdom—soil in which the little horn would later grow.

At first, this Church was a living witness—clay set free, carrying the Ten Words and the Gospel into a pagan world. But as the number of believers grew, so did the need for leadership and organization. Over time, the Church’s structure began to mirror the empire in which it lived. Local elders and overseers gradually formed regional centers of authority. Bishops became the new “officials” of this spiritual realm, and among them, one city—and one office—would rise above the rest.

When pagan Rome finally fell, it did not simply vanish. A power vacuum opened, and the Gentile Christian church—already shaped by Roman patterns of governance—rose into it. Within a relatively short span, a religious-political system emerged that carried forward Roman structure, discipline, and strength. This new reality became known as Papal Rome.

At the head of this system stood the Bishop of Rome—long the most prominent figure in the Gentile Christian church. Over time, this bishop came to wield authority not only over the Church but over much of what had once been the Roman world. He would eventually be known as the Pope, and in prophetic language, as the little horn. His power did not come from military conquest. Rather, he inherited and repurposed the iron strength of pagan Rome, fulfilling the words of Daniel 2:41: “Yet the strength of the iron shall be in it.”

He would extend authority across nations—not in the name of Caesar, but in the name of Christ, though without the Spirit of Christ.

All of this—the outward revealing of the horns, the fall of pagan Rome, the continuation of the first three beasts’ influence, the rise of Papal Rome from within a predominantly Gentile church, and the ascent of the little horn—occurs well before the end of time. These developments belong to the long historical arc that begins at the cross and moves forward through history. The little horn will have his season. But his season will end. And when it does, the Son of Man will come with the clouds of heaven (Daniel 7:13), and the kingdom will be given not to the beast or the horn—but to the saints of the Most High. This is not just prophecy—it is promise.

​

 

[Marty fox]

Marty, here is just a cut / paste narrative found in the chapter 7 commentary on Daniel. The little horn cannot come until the cross that occurs during the reign of pagan Rome - the 4th kindom.

Reflective Narrative:
Hidden in the Feet, Revealed in the Horns: God’s Law and God’s People and the coming little horn​

In the grand statue of Daniel 2, four earthly kingdoms rise in succession—each revealed by God as a separate layer of different metals. But it is the fourth kingdom, made of iron, that demands our closest attention. This kingdom, which we know as pagan Rome, was powerful and unrelenting. And yet, God showed that something radical would take place within it.

At the feet of this statue—where iron is strangely mixed with clay—something extraordinary happens. A Stone, not cut by human hands, strikes the image at its feet (Daniel 2:34). This Stone is Christ, and His crucifixion marks the turning point of history. From that moment, the iron-and-clay mixture in the feet is broken apart. It is a spiritual event, not a political one—the clay that had been bound inside the empire of Rome is now separated.

But who is the clay? The answer lies in the way God is revealing His plan of restoration—not merely recounting the rise and fall of kingdoms, but telling a deeper story centered on His covenant people, their return to Jerusalem, and the arrival of the Messiah. At the heart of that story is “pottery clay”—a symbol of the faithful Jews who accepted Jesus after the cross and were softened and reshaped by His Spirit. Before the cross, they were held within the iron of the fourth kingdom—hidden and oppressed. After the cross, the separation of iron and clay symbolizes not only judgment, but freedom. The pottery clay is released—and with them, the Gospel begins to move outward.

Alongside the clay were the ten toes—present in the feet, but not emphasized in the dream itself. Before the cross, these toes were bound within the same iron structure that held the clay. But after the Stone strikes the feet, what had been hidden begins to appear outwardly in history. In Daniel 7, those toes reappear as ten horns growing out of the fourth beast. Horns represent authority, and this shift from toes to horns signals that what was once contained inside the fourth kingdom is now visible, active, and central to the unfolding prophetic story.

This tells us something profound: the ten toes and ten horns are not random anatomy or animal features. They represent the Ten Commandments of God—once bound up with a captive people, now brought into prophetic view as the standard of God’s kingdom confronting the nations touched by Rome. The Stone’s strike does more than fracture a statue; it breaks an invisible bondage. The Messiah enters the fourth kingdom at its weakest point—not to topple Rome with legions of angels, but to sever what no earthly army could touch: the spiritual captivity of His people. Those who receive Him are no longer merely subjects of Rome or keepers of an external code. They become pottery clay in the truest sense: softened, yielded, reshaped by the hands of the living God.

From that fracture point, something begins to happen that Daniel 2 anticipates and Daniel 7 unfolds.

The same people who once carried God’s Law within the confines of a single nation now step out into a pagan world with a message that is both old and new—old, because the Ten Words reveal the character of God; new, because the cross reveals the heart of God, and the Law is no longer merely written on stone but pressed into living hearts. The pottery clay does not abandon the Ten Words as it leaves the feet of the statue; it carries them, now joined to the Gospel of a crucified and risen Christ.

This is why Daniel 7 shows both the people and the “horns” appearing from within the fourth beast. The pottery clay do not rise in their own strength, and the horns do not represent a new law. Rather, what was hidden inside the feet—clay joined to iron, commandments held within a captive people—is now visible on the outside. The Ten Commandments, once contained within Israel under Rome’s heel, emerge as ten horns: visible, active, confronting kings, governors, philosophers, and commoners alike with the unchanging standard of God’s kingdom.

In this way, the Stone’s first strike does not yet grind the statue to powder—that is the work of the final judgment—but it does begin a quiet revolution. The clay is freed from iron’s grip. The Law is freed from national confinement. The Gospel and the commandments go out together, carried by men and women who have seen the crucified Messiah and cannot remain silent. The transformation from toes to horns, from captive clay to commissioned witnesses, is the story of how God turns a crushed people into a conquering testimony—one that will continue to challenge empires until the Stone fills the whole earth.

But there is another figure that rises: a little horn. He appears after the ten horns and brings a different spirit—clever, subtle, and ambitious. He speaks pompous words. And as history moves forward and the fourth beast’s pagan phase is “slain” (Daniel 7:11), this little horn does not fade. Instead, he grows in influence—redefining truth, reordering worship, and eventually turning his words against the Most High.

Before the little horn reaches the climax of judgment, Daniel 7:12 drops a remarkable—and often overlooked—key. “As for the rest of the beasts…” reaches back to Babylon, Medo-Persia, and Greece. Their dominion had already been taken away, yet Daniel is told that “their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.” That is not a throwaway line; it is a prophetic distinction between rule and residue.

It’s one of those “skipping sounds”—a subtle narrative shift that signals something more than it appears. Empires can lose political dominion and still remain alive through their ideas, methods, and spiritual DNA—carried forward into whatever follows. In other words, Daniel is telling us how history moves: kingdoms fall, but their legacies migrate. Babylon, Persia, and Greece do not continue as ruling powers, yet their influence endures—absorbed, repackaged, and transmitted into the next system. This is why the rise of the little horn is not merely a political shift inside the fourth beast; it is a transformation in which earlier currents continue flowing beneath the surface.

And what comes next is not immediately the end of the world, but the fourth kingdom’s internal change—pagan Rome giving way to a religious-political form. That transformation could not mature until after the Messiah’s first coming, when the Gospel was carried into the Gentile world and a new, predominantly Gentile church took root inside the fourth kingdom—soil in which the little horn would later grow.

At first, this Church was a living witness—clay set free, carrying the Ten Words and the Gospel into a pagan world. But as the number of believers grew, so did the need for leadership and organization. Over time, the Church’s structure began to mirror the empire in which it lived. Local elders and overseers gradually formed regional centers of authority. Bishops became the new “officials” of this spiritual realm, and among them, one city—and one office—would rise above the rest.

When pagan Rome finally fell, it did not simply vanish. A power vacuum opened, and the Gentile Christian church—already shaped by Roman patterns of governance—rose into it. Within a relatively short span, a religious-political system emerged that carried forward Roman structure, discipline, and strength. This new reality became known as Papal Rome.

At the head of this system stood the Bishop of Rome—long the most prominent figure in the Gentile Christian church. Over time, this bishop came to wield authority not only over the Church but over much of what had once been the Roman world. He would eventually be known as the Pope, and in prophetic language, as the little horn. His power did not come from military conquest. Rather, he inherited and repurposed the iron strength of pagan Rome, fulfilling the words of Daniel 2:41: “Yet the strength of the iron shall be in it.”

He would extend authority across nations—not in the name of Caesar, but in the name of Christ, though without the Spirit of Christ.

All of this—the outward revealing of the horns, the fall of pagan Rome, the continuation of the first three beasts’ influence, the rise of Papal Rome from within a predominantly Gentile church, and the ascent of the little horn—occurs well before the end of time. These developments belong to the long historical arc that begins at the cross and moves forward through history. The little horn will have his season. But his season will end. And when it does, the Son of Man will come with the clouds of heaven (Daniel 7:13), and the kingdom will be given not to the beast or the horn—but to the saints of the Most High. This is not just prophecy—it is promise.

​

Thanks but that’s not how I see it. I see the little horn as Antiochus Epehanies and the fourth empire as Greece not Rome.

If the rock (the kingdom of God) didn’t strike the statue until Christ first came, then how could the rock destroy all four kingdoms with one strike when three of those kingdoms were long gone before Christ first came?

Daniel 2
44 “In the time of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed, nor will it be left to another people. It will crush all those kingdoms and bring them to an end, but it will itself endure forever

King Nebuchadnezzar was one of those kings and Babylon was one of those kingdoms that got crushed

 

[Marty fox]

Marty, here is just a cut / paste narrative found in the chapter 7 commentary on Daniel. The little horn cannot come until the cross that occurs during the reign of pagan Rome - the 4th kindom.

Reflective Narrative:
Hidden in the Feet, Revealed in the Horns: God’s Law and God’s People and the coming little horn​

In the grand statue of Daniel 2, four earthly kingdoms rise in succession—each revealed by God as a separate layer of different metals. But it is the fourth kingdom, made of iron, that demands our closest attention. This kingdom, which we know as pagan Rome, was powerful and unrelenting. And yet, God showed that something radical would take place within it.

At the feet of this statue—where iron is strangely mixed with clay—something extraordinary happens. A Stone, not cut by human hands, strikes the image at its feet (Daniel 2:34). This Stone is Christ, and His crucifixion marks the turning point of history. From that moment, the iron-and-clay mixture in the feet is broken apart. It is a spiritual event, not a political one—the clay that had been bound inside the empire of Rome is now separated.

But who is the clay? The answer lies in the way God is revealing His plan of restoration—not merely recounting the rise and fall of kingdoms, but telling a deeper story centered on His covenant people, their return to Jerusalem, and the arrival of the Messiah. At the heart of that story is “pottery clay”—a symbol of the faithful Jews who accepted Jesus after the cross and were softened and reshaped by His Spirit. Before the cross, they were held within the iron of the fourth kingdom—hidden and oppressed. After the cross, the separation of iron and clay symbolizes not only judgment, but freedom. The pottery clay is released—and with them, the Gospel begins to move outward.

Alongside the clay were the ten toes—present in the feet, but not emphasized in the dream itself. Before the cross, these toes were bound within the same iron structure that held the clay. But after the Stone strikes the feet, what had been hidden begins to appear outwardly in history. In Daniel 7, those toes reappear as ten horns growing out of the fourth beast. Horns represent authority, and this shift from toes to horns signals that what was once contained inside the fourth kingdom is now visible, active, and central to the unfolding prophetic story.

This tells us something profound: the ten toes and ten horns are not random anatomy or animal features. They represent the Ten Commandments of God—once bound up with a captive people, now brought into prophetic view as the standard of God’s kingdom confronting the nations touched by Rome. The Stone’s strike does more than fracture a statue; it breaks an invisible bondage. The Messiah enters the fourth kingdom at its weakest point—not to topple Rome with legions of angels, but to sever what no earthly army could touch: the spiritual captivity of His people. Those who receive Him are no longer merely subjects of Rome or keepers of an external code. They become pottery clay in the truest sense: softened, yielded, reshaped by the hands of the living God.

From that fracture point, something begins to happen that Daniel 2 anticipates and Daniel 7 unfolds.

The same people who once carried God’s Law within the confines of a single nation now step out into a pagan world with a message that is both old and new—old, because the Ten Words reveal the character of God; new, because the cross reveals the heart of God, and the Law is no longer merely written on stone but pressed into living hearts. The pottery clay does not abandon the Ten Words as it leaves the feet of the statue; it carries them, now joined to the Gospel of a crucified and risen Christ.

This is why Daniel 7 shows both the people and the “horns” appearing from within the fourth beast. The pottery clay do not rise in their own strength, and the horns do not represent a new law. Rather, what was hidden inside the feet—clay joined to iron, commandments held within a captive people—is now visible on the outside. The Ten Commandments, once contained within Israel under Rome’s heel, emerge as ten horns: visible, active, confronting kings, governors, philosophers, and commoners alike with the unchanging standard of God’s kingdom.

In this way, the Stone’s first strike does not yet grind the statue to powder—that is the work of the final judgment—but it does begin a quiet revolution. The clay is freed from iron’s grip. The Law is freed from national confinement. The Gospel and the commandments go out together, carried by men and women who have seen the crucified Messiah and cannot remain silent. The transformation from toes to horns, from captive clay to commissioned witnesses, is the story of how God turns a crushed people into a conquering testimony—one that will continue to challenge empires until the Stone fills the whole earth.

But there is another figure that rises: a little horn. He appears after the ten horns and brings a different spirit—clever, subtle, and ambitious. He speaks pompous words. And as history moves forward and the fourth beast’s pagan phase is “slain” (Daniel 7:11), this little horn does not fade. Instead, he grows in influence—redefining truth, reordering worship, and eventually turning his words against the Most High.

Before the little horn reaches the climax of judgment, Daniel 7:12 drops a remarkable—and often overlooked—key. “As for the rest of the beasts…” reaches back to Babylon, Medo-Persia, and Greece. Their dominion had already been taken away, yet Daniel is told that “their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.” That is not a throwaway line; it is a prophetic distinction between rule and residue.

It’s one of those “skipping sounds”—a subtle narrative shift that signals something more than it appears. Empires can lose political dominion and still remain alive through their ideas, methods, and spiritual DNA—carried forward into whatever follows. In other words, Daniel is telling us how history moves: kingdoms fall, but their legacies migrate. Babylon, Persia, and Greece do not continue as ruling powers, yet their influence endures—absorbed, repackaged, and transmitted into the next system. This is why the rise of the little horn is not merely a political shift inside the fourth beast; it is a transformation in which earlier currents continue flowing beneath the surface.

And what comes next is not immediately the end of the world, but the fourth kingdom’s internal change—pagan Rome giving way to a religious-political form. That transformation could not mature until after the Messiah’s first coming, when the Gospel was carried into the Gentile world and a new, predominantly Gentile church took root inside the fourth kingdom—soil in which the little horn would later grow.

At first, this Church was a living witness—clay set free, carrying the Ten Words and the Gospel into a pagan world. But as the number of believers grew, so did the need for leadership and organization. Over time, the Church’s structure began to mirror the empire in which it lived. Local elders and overseers gradually formed regional centers of authority. Bishops became the new “officials” of this spiritual realm, and among them, one city—and one office—would rise above the rest.

When pagan Rome finally fell, it did not simply vanish. A power vacuum opened, and the Gentile Christian church—already shaped by Roman patterns of governance—rose into it. Within a relatively short span, a religious-political system emerged that carried forward Roman structure, discipline, and strength. This new reality became known as Papal Rome.

At the head of this system stood the Bishop of Rome—long the most prominent figure in the Gentile Christian church. Over time, this bishop came to wield authority not only over the Church but over much of what had once been the Roman world. He would eventually be known as the Pope, and in prophetic language, as the little horn. His power did not come from military conquest. Rather, he inherited and repurposed the iron strength of pagan Rome, fulfilling the words of Daniel 2:41: “Yet the strength of the iron shall be in it.”

He would extend authority across nations—not in the name of Caesar, but in the name of Christ, though without the Spirit of Christ.

All of this—the outward revealing of the horns, the fall of pagan Rome, the continuation of the first three beasts’ influence, the rise of Papal Rome from within a predominantly Gentile church, and the ascent of the little horn—occurs well before the end of time. These developments belong to the long historical arc that begins at the cross and moves forward through history. The little horn will have his season. But his season will end. And when it does, the Son of Man will come with the clouds of heaven (Daniel 7:13), and the kingdom will be given not to the beast or the horn—but to the saints of the Most High. This is not just prophecy—it is promise.

​

Hello again just seeing if you saw post #43 but no rush if your busy, just wondering if you have seen this view before.

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings Marty Fox,

I see the little horn as Antiochus Epehanies and the fourth empire as Greece not Rome.

That is a fairly popular view of the abomination of Desolation, but in a sense Antiochus Epiphanies was a shadow of what would happen with Rome and the Temple in AD 70.

I believe that Jesus is quoting / alluding to Daniel 8:
Matthew 24:15-16 (KJV): 15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Daniel 8:9-14 (KJV): 9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land. 10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them. 11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down. 12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered. 13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot? 14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

I also believe that the time period of 2300 is from Alexander the Great slaying the Persians in BC 334-333 to AD 1967 when the Jews regained Jerusalem.

of God) didn’t strike the statue until Christ first came, then how could the rock destroy all four kingdoms with one strike when three of those kingdoms were long gone before Christ first came?

I consider that the stone strikes all of the kingdoms of men in the future, at his second coming.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[CTK]

Hello again just seeing if you saw post #43 but no rush if your busy, just wondering if you have seen this view before.

Thank you and I will look at your response this evening, best wishes!

 

[Marty fox]

Greetings Marty Fox,

That is a fairly popular view of the abomination of Desolation, but in a sense Antiochus Epiphanies was a shadow of what would happen with Rome and the Temple in AD 70.

I believe that Jesus is quoting / alluding to Daniel 8:
Matthew 24:15-16 (KJV): 15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Daniel 8:9-14 (KJV): 9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land. 10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them. 11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down. 12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered. 13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot? 14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

I also believe that the time period of 2300 is from Alexander the Great slaying the Persians in BC 334-333 to AD 1967 when the Jews regained Jerusalem.

I consider that the stone strikes all of the kingdoms of men in the future, at his second coming.

Kind regards
Trevor

Did you see post #43?

 

[William Barton]

They are in the seals, and the seals describe events that happen in the trumpets, all of which are end times events ie: events arounds the timeframe of the tribulation which IMO happens in the few years prior to the second coming.

Does anyone have a fairly good understanding of who these 4 horseman represent?

Do they take place during / at the end times or are they affecting us today (and by today I mean during the past XXX years after the cross)?

Thanks.

IMO "four horsemen" (Revelation 6:1-8) is figurative/apocalyptic language .

o White horse = war in Middle East
o Red horse = more war in Middle East
o. Black horse = famine caused by all this war
o Pale horse = death due to war, starvation, pestilence

 

[William Barton]

Does anyone have a fairly good understanding of who these 4 horseman represent?

Do they take place during / at the end times or are they affecting us today (and by today I mean during the past XXX years after the cross)?

Thanks.

IMO:
The four horsemen are part of a figurative rendition of end-times in the Middle East, which will involve war.
o The white horse denotes war.
o. The red horse denotes escalated war.
o The black horse denotes famine resulting from war.
o. The pale horse denotes pestilence due to ravages of war.

 

[CTK]

IMO:
The four horsemen are part of a figurative rendition of end-times in the Middle East, which will involve war.
o The white horse denotes war.
o. The red horse denotes escalated war.
o The black horse denotes famine resulting from war.
o. The pale horse denotes pestilence due to ravages of war.

Thank you . Let me ask to to consider something. In the book of Daniel we find that God reveals the 4 and only 4 kingdoms that are included in His plan of restoration and salvation for His people, His city and as a result of their rejection of Him, He will also reveal His plan of salvation for all mankind in chapter 9.

That is what the book of Daniel is all about. But God will give us His prophecies as His people travel back from Babylon to Jerusalem.

As you are aware, He also gives us more information for us to see regarding these 4 kingdoms by using different symbols for these kingdoms in chapter 7 and 8. Meaning, God will frequently take a reality and break it into different ways of viewing it.

I think the perfect example is in Revelation where in chapters 2 and 3, He will discuss His ONE church in 7 very different ways. He goes into details for each church, but there is only ONE CHURCH.

In Revelation He discusses His ONE church in 7 ways, His bowls, trumpets and seals in separate ways as well.

So, if we look at chapter 6 we also find He speaks of 4 horsemen. Do you think it is possible that these 4 horsemen represent ONE power where God is revealing to us how he will go against His people, His church, and even God Himself in 4 different ways OVER THE COURSE of time UNTIL HIS RETURN (notice- this power is NOT AN ENDTIME POWER but will continue until the end.

So, this power (little horn of Daniel 7 and 8) will gain power through the methods described in the 4 riders? Thanks

 

[William Barton]

IMO:
In Revelation 6:1-7:
o Trumpet = Call to order
o Scroll = Reading of accusations against sinful race
o Bowl = hot oil applied (common means of torture)

"Four horses" (Revelation 6:2-7 represent ravages of war. Today we use tanks instead of horses.

 

[William Barton]

Thank you . Let me ask to to consider something. In the book of Daniel we find that God reveals the 4 and only 4 kingdoms that are included in His plan of restoration and salvation for His people, His city and as a result of their rejection of Him, He will also reveal His plan of salvation for all mankind in chapter 9.

That is what the book of Daniel is all about. But God will give us His prophecies as His people travel back from Babylon to Jerusalem.

As you are aware, He also gives us more information for us to see regarding these 4 kingdoms by using different symbols for these kingdoms in chapter 7 and 8. Meaning, God will frequently take a reality and break it into different ways of viewing it.

I think the perfect example is in Revelation where in chapters 2 and 3, He will discuss His ONE church in 7 very different ways. He goes into details for each church, but there is only ONE CHURCH.

In Revelation He discusses His ONE church in 7 ways, His bowls, trumpets and seals in separate ways as well.

So, if we look at chapter 6 we also find He speaks of 4 horsemen. Do you think it is possible that these 4 horsemen represent ONE power where God is revealing to us how he will go against His people, His church, and even God Himself in 4 different ways OVER THE COURSE of time UNTIL HIS RETURN (notice- this power is NOT AN ENDTIME POWER but will continue until the end.

So, this power (little horn of Daniel 7 and 8) will gain power through the methods described in the 4 riders? Thanks

I would say Revelation 6:1-14 indicates war:

o White horse = a leader focused on *conquest*
o Red horse/sword = *blood shed* in wartime
o Black horse/denarius = *poverty* due to war (denarius=one day's pay)
o Pale (Greek χλωρος) horse = color of *death* due to war.

I want to emphasize this is all Middle Eastern, *not* the U.S.

 

[CTK]

I would say Revelation 6:1-14 indicates war:

o White horse = a leader focused on *conquest*
o Red horse/sword = *blood shed* in wartime
o Black horse/denarius = *poverty* due to war (denarius=one day's pay)
o Pale (Greek χλωρος) horse = color of *death* due to war.

I want to emphasize this is all Middle Eastern, *not* the U.S.

Yes, but do you think these 4 views / behaviors / conducts express the actions in one individual- that being the little horn of Daniel 7 and 8?

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings again CTK,

Yes, but do you think these 4 views / behaviors / conducts express the actions in one individual- that being the little horn of Daniel 7 and 8?

The little horns of Daniel 7 and 8 are not the same as each other. The little horn of Daniel 7 is the development of the Papacy while the little horn of Daniel 8 is the development of the Pagan Roman Empire which crucified Jesus and destroyed the Temple in AD 70. The four Horsemen are events and judgements on the subsequent Pagan Roman Empire from AD 96 - 312.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[CTK]

Greetings again CTK,

The little horns of Daniel 7 and 8 are not the same as each other. The little horn of Daniel 7 is the development of the Papacy while the little horn of Daniel 8 is the development of the Pagan Roman Empire which crucified Jesus and destroyed the Temple in AD 70. The four Horsemen are events and judgements on the subsequent Pagan Roman Empire from AD 96 - 312.

Kind regards
Trevor

Thank you for your response. I believe the little horn of Daniel 7 is being introduced for the first time..

The little horn is first seen TO COME OUT of the 4th beast in the early verses of chapter 7. He comes out after the 10 horns are also found to come out of the 4th beast.

Then we find that in 7:11 (476 AD) that pagan Rome - the 4th beast is slain. Please keep in mind there are ONLY 4 kingdoms that God brought out of the sea (meaning in His plan of restoration and salvation- “Book of Daniel”), but as we saw in chapter 2 (verses 41-44), there will indeed be a “divided kingdom.” That “divided kingdom” is the 4th kingdom and after 476 AD, the Gentile Christian church, which had become quite powerful over the past 400 years, will succeed pagan Rome.

Still only 4 kingdoms in God’s plan but now the “divided kingdom” takes the throne. This power, which once “came out” of pagan Rome will now “sit atop” the 4th kingdom beast.

He was identified as the most powerful bishop within the church, but will soon become known as the papacy, but prophetically as the little horn. And now, this little horn will be given power over ALL churches and even civil matters (officially) by Justinian in 538 AD.

In chapter 8 we are now given much more information about this little horn figure who rules over papal Rome.

If you notice in chapter 8, God will purposely identify only 3 powers: He excludes any discussion regarding Babylon. He excludes any discussion about pagan Rome but He has us focus ONLY on those powers where He identifies with HORNS.

The second kingdom is ruled by Darius and Cyrus - 2 horns, the third kingdom is ruled by Alexander- 1 horns, and then He identifies (again, not a kingdom and not pagan Rome) but the little horn .

So, it is the POWERS and not the kingdoms in chapter 8 that are being focused on . And it is within chapter 8 that God will provide much detail on his (little horn) actions, behaviors, etc.

It was pagan Rome that crucified the Messiah. It was pagan Rome that saw its demise in 476 AD (7:11) and it was the little horn of Daniel 7 that had now come to “sit atop” the 4th beast kingdom that will become known as papal Rome.

And this “little horn” will continue until he is destroyed without human hands (by God Himself when He returns).

Revelation picks up where Daniel leaves off. In chapters 2 and 3 God reveals His ONE and only church in 7 different ways (because after the cross His disciples will go out into the Roman Empire preaching the Good News). This early church will see tremendous growth during the coming 400 years. And this is where Revelation talks about His church- after the cross.

God has purposely revealed His ONE CHURCH in 7 ways over the following 2000 years. And He is also revealing the ONE little horn who will go against His church, His people, His laws, and even God Himself, in 4 different ways.

The white rider represents the little horn who comes to power WITHOUT war or military means (thus no arrows), and he also will wear white as though he is righteous and represents God.

Then, the red rider comes after him. This is not a new rider but the same little horn who now has been in power but now uses military means to conquer. This is indeed consistent with the centuries after 500 AD when he first came to power. Now, he uses whatever military or violent actions are necessary to conquer or put down ANY that disagree with him . These can be seen in the Inquisitions, the Crusades and so many other war and destruction handed out by the papacy. Even Christians who would not accept the papacy (divinity, forgive sins, God on earth, etc.) would be tortured and murdered in the millions. So, he is not a new rider but the same rider that becomes murderous and extremely violent.

Now, we could continue moving on to the last 2 riders, but I think you can see how this little horn will continue to adopt even more practices or behaviors to continue “conquering.”

By the way, the black rider will cause famine - this is not meant to imply a lack of food or nourishment. It means the papacy will indeed keep the Word of God away from the church members. Only they will have access to the Bible, they will write it in Latin (no one but the priests could read - especially Latin), it was a death penalty to even have a bible. The papacy would indeed keep God’s Word from the church.

And of course the last rider brings death because everyone who places their faith in this false gospel of the little horn will find eternal death.

Please give this some thought and I look forward to your comments.

 

[WalterandDebbie]

Does anyone have a fairly good understanding of who these 4 horseman represent?

Do they take place during / at the end times or are they affecting us today (and by today I mean during the past XXX years after the cross)?

Thanks.

Hello CTK, Yes, Great questions, Does anyone have a fairly good understanding of who these 4 horseman represent? Do they take place during / at the end times or are they affecting us today (and by today I mean during the past XXX years after the cross)? at DuckDuckGo

Love, Walter and Debbie

 

[WalterandDebbie]

Thursday, 4-23-26 5th. Day Of The Weekly Cycle, IYAR 5, 5786 35th. Spring Day 19th. Day Of The Omer

Does anyone have a fairly good understanding of who these 4 horseman represent? Do they take place during / at the end times or are they affecting us today (and by today I mean during the past XXX years after the cross)? / OT and NT at DuckDuckGo

DuckDuckGo. Privacy, Simplified.

duckduckgo.com

Love, Walter and Debbie

 

[William Barton]

Yes, but do you think these 4 views / behaviors / conducts express the actions in one individual- that being the little horn of Daniel 7 and 8?

IMO:
"Anointed Ruler" (Daniel 9:25) = Jesus (Isaiah 61:1).
"Little horn" (Daniel 7:8) = Antichrist

 

[CTK]

IMO:
"Anointed Ruler" (Daniel 9:25) = Jesus (Isaiah 61:1).
"Little horn" (Daniel 7:8) = Antichrist

Yes, 9:25 is indeed the Messiah,

The little horn of Daniel 7 and 8 and in 11 (as well as in Revelation) is the antangonist that "will continue until His return where he will be destroyed without human hand." But the open question I would like to ask you is to identify who this "little horn" is..... Do you find he is indeed the papacy that comes out of the 4th kingdom of pagan Rome AFTER it is destroyed in 476 AD (Daniel 7:11)? Thanks.
)

 

[William Barton]

IMO "four horsemen" (Revelation 6:1-8) is figurative/apocalyptic language .

o White horse = war in Middle East
o Red horse = more war in Middle East
o. Black horse = famine caused by all this war
o Pale horse = death due to war, starvation, pestilence

Yes, 9:25 is indeed the Messiah,

The little horn of Daniel 7 and 8 and in 11 (as well as in Revelation) is the antangonist that "will continue until His return where he will be destroyed without human hand." But the open question I would like to ask you is to identify who this "little horn" is..... Do you find he is indeed the papacy that comes out of the 4th kingdom of pagan Rome AFTER it is destroyed in 476 AD (Daniel 7:11)? Thanks.
)

The Catholic Church was holding the Middle East together for many years. The Pope had an army. Eventually some Catholics got upset that the Pope was calling himself the Vicar of Christ (God tells the Pope, the Pope relays the message). These Catholics protested, forming "Protestant" denominations, and inappropriately reading the Pope into the Bible.

I see the "Little Horn" to be a charismatic person who brokers a peace between Israel and other Middle-Eastern Countries, supports rebuilding the Jewish Temple, then takes his seat there, showing himself to be God (2Thessalonians 2:4).