Help... the four creatures in front of the throne in Revelation

[William Barton]

Wick Stick suggested:: >Sovereignty>

God is sovereign, hence we are predestined. I do not see how it could be otherwise.

The four creatures are cherubim.

 

[Wick Stick]

Wick Stick suggested:: >Sovereignty>

God is sovereign, hence we are predestined.

I do not see how it could be otherwise.

My understanding is thus:

God, being sovereign, has destined a certain group for salvation. In the New Testament we call it the Body of Christ or the Church. In the Old Testament, it was called Israel (but that turns out to be confusing because of all the people claiming to be Israel, who aren't actually Israel).

God has issued an invitation to all the people in all the nations, to come and become part of that group. He has removed those from the group who do not share the ethos of that group.

As individuals, it seems to me that we have been given a choice - join or not. A man's power to will and to do lies within the confines of what God has dictated in His sovereignty.

 

[William Barton]

Wick Stick noted: >angel means messenger...any messenger is potentially an angel>

IMO it means the word αγγελος has more than one definition.

The Oxford Greek Dictionary lists "messenger" as one definition, and it lists "semi-divine being" as another definition.

"Choice" is a human perspective.

 

[CTK]

CTK noted:

<That’s not a good answer to a very serious claim that God created sin.>

I suggest you read Romans 9:14-29, then send an email to the apostle Paul in heaven and tell him you know better.

IMO ultimately there is no totally "free will," rather that is a human perspective. We are all created beings. Shakespeare expressed it this way:

"All the world's a stage, and all the men and women merely players."
("As You Like It," spoken by Jaques)

I don’t see Romans 9:14–29 teaching that God created sin. That passage is about God’s sovereignty, mercy, judgment, and His right to use even rebellious people within His purposes. But using sinful choices is not the same as creating sin.

Scripture is very clear that God Himself is not the source of evil. James says, “God can’t be tempted by evil, and he himself tempts no one” (James 1:13). Sin comes when desire gives birth to disobedience (James 1:14–15). John also defines sin as lawlessness, not as something God created (1 John 3:4).

Genesis says everything God made was “very good” (Genesis 1:31). Sin entered the world through human disobedience, not because God created it (Romans 5:12).

So I would say God created beings capable of moral choice, but sin came through rebellion against God. God can judge sin, restrain sin, permit sin for a time, and even use sinful actions to accomplish His larger purpose—like Joseph said, “You meant evil against me, but God meant it for good” (Genesis 50:20). But that does not make God the creator of sin.

Romans 9 shows that God is sovereign over vessels of mercy and vessels of wrath, but it does not teach that God created their sin. It teaches that even human rebellion cannot overthrow His purpose.

 

[Wick Stick]

Sick stick noted: >angel means messenger...any messenger is potentially an angel>

IMO it means the word αγγελος has more than one definition.

The Oxford Greek Dictionary lists "messenger" as one definition and "semi -divine being" as another definition.

The dictionary is correct for its time. It was published in the 20th century.

Did the word have that meaning in the 1st century, though? I don't think so, but if you can prove otherwise, that would be a benefit to me.

 

[William Barton]

Wick Stick noted:

<I have found that debates on predestination and free will are usually all wrong-headed>

I've had that experience too. If someone wants my opinion, I will share it, and explain why I think that. Otherwise I let it go.

 

[William Barton]

I don’t see Romans 9:14–29 teaching that God created sin. That passage is about God’s sovereignty, mercy, judgment, and His right to use even rebellious people within His purposes. But using sinful choices is not the same as creating sin.

Scripture is very clear that God Himself is not the source of evil. James says, “God can’t be tempted by evil, and he himself tempts no one” (James 1:13). Sin comes when desire gives birth to disobedience (James 1:14–15). John also defines sin as lawlessness, not as something God created (1 John 3:4).

Genesis says everything God made was “very good” (Genesis 1:31). Sin entered the world through human disobedience, not because God created it (Romans 5:12).

So I would say God created beings capable of moral choice, but sin came through rebellion against God. God can judge sin, restrain sin, permit sin for a time, and even use sinful actions to accomplish His larger purpose—like Joseph said, “You meant evil against me, but God meant it for good” (Genesis 50:20). But that does not make God the creator of sin.

Romans 9 shows that God is sovereign over vessels of mercy and vessels of wrath, but it does not teach that God created their sin. It teaches that even human rebellion cannot overthrow His purpose.

IMO:
God is Creator--everything, every person, every thought, every molecule. It could not be otherwise, else God would not be sovereign. We are actors in a play.

 

[William Barton]

The dictionary is correct for its time. It was published in the 20th century.

Did the word have that meaning in the 1st century, though? I don't think so, but if you can prove otherwise, that would be a benefit to me.

 

[William Barton]

OK, the New testament is first century, how about Matthew 11:10:

"I will send my messenger" (Greek αγγελογ, accusative case of αγγελος).

If you are interested in a Greek dictionary, I suggest the Greek-English Lexicon (Liddell & Scott) available on Amazon.

 

[Wick Stick]

OK, the New testament is first century, how about Matthew 11:10:

"I will send my messenger" (Greek αγγελογ, accusative case).

Poor communication on my part. We agree that ἄγγελος means messenger.

My question was supposed to be whether it also meant "semi-divine being" in the 1st century. I don't find that meaning in New Testament times. The word seems to have acquired that meaning later - like 5th century AD-ish.

 

[William Barton]

Wick Stick noted:
<Poor communication on my part. We agree that ἄγγελος means messenger. My question was supposed to be whether it also meant "semi-divine being" in the 1st century.>

IMO:
"Divine/holy" in the lower sense applies to angels, since they serve God, as do believers.

 

[CTK]

??????

 

[William Barton]

I don’t see Romans 9:14–29 teaching that God created sin. That passage is about God’s sovereignty, mercy, judgment, and His right to use even rebellious people within His purposes. But using sinful choices is not the same as creating sin.

Scripture is very clear that God Himself is not the source of evil. James says, “God can’t be tempted by evil, and he himself tempts no one” (James 1:13). Sin comes when desire gives birth to disobedience (James 1:14–15). John also defines sin as lawlessness, not as something God created (1 John 3:4).

Genesis says everything God made was “very good” (Genesis 1:31). Sin entered the world through human disobedience, not because God created it (Romans 5:12).

So I would say God created beings capable of moral choice, but sin came through rebellion against God. God can judge sin, restrain sin, permit sin for a time, and even use sinful actions to accomplish His larger purpose—like Joseph said, “You meant evil against me, but God meant it for good” (Genesis 50:20). But that does not make God the creator of sin.

Romans 9 shows that God is sovereign over vessels of mercy and vessels of wrath, but it does not teach that God created their sin. It teaches that even human rebellion cannot overthrow His purpose.

 

[CTK]

@William Barton, I would ask you if you intend to reply to the post I sent you... Do you agree that sin is made by our choice or not? Thanks.

 

[William Barton]

>@William Barton,
I would ask you if you intend to reply to the post I sent you...
Do you agree that sin is made by our choice or not? Thanks<

1. We are all actors in a play, *making choices.*
2. God wrote the play.

 

[Wick Stick]

>@William Barton,
I would ask you if you intend to reply to the post I sent you...
Do you agree that sin is made by our choice or not? Thanks<

1. We are all actors in a play, *making choices.*
2. God wrote the play.

 

[William Barton]

If I write a story, and one of the characters dies when very young, is that the fault of the character?

 

[Wick Stick]

If I write a story, and one of the characters dies when very young, is that the fault of the character?

Probably not?

Minor character deaths in stories are often plot devices to establish that the situation is in fact serious, and let the reader know that characters can in fact die in this book. Major character deaths in stories are usually calculated pieces central to the story. Those are Author things.

There is a method for writing in which the author creates characters first, and then lets the story progress to a degree based on, "what would character X do in this situation?" I tried to write a book this way once, and never finished. My characters kept taking me to places that were digressions from my basic plot. I wonder if God has that issue with humanity?

 

[William Barton]

Wick Stick asked:

<Well, there's such a thing as will. Is there any such thing as un-free will?>

I suppose "no free will" equates to "unfree will."

We are born, we grow up, we look around us, we shrug our shoulders, and we never ponder WHERE ALL THIS CAME FROM.

One lady suggested to me, "It's always been here." In turn I suggested that we would then have traversed an infinite amount of time, which is a logical absurdity by the definition of infinity.

 

[William Barton]

Wick Stick asked:

>Are you perhaps speaking of sovereignty, rather than free will? God is sovereign. People are not.>

IMO:

"Sovereign" stems from Latin "superior" = "to extend above" (Oxford Latin Dictionary).

The characters in a novel have free will; the author wrote the book. God is the Author of our story.