crowns, no crowns, Revelation 17, Revelation 12, Revelation 13

[ewq1938]

No, there will be two persons cast into the lake of fire in Revelation 19:20, the day that Jesus returns.

Rev 19 shows one person beast and the kingdom beast so not two people. No biblical writer ever wrote of two such end times people.

 

[Douggg]

Rev 19 shows one person beast and the kingdom beast so not two people. No biblical writer ever wrote of two such end times people.

Revelation 16:13, it shows three persons. Satan, the beast-king, the false prophet.

Revelation 16:13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.

out of the mouth of the dragon (Satan). Who will be Indwelling the speaking statue image of the beast-king.
out of the mouth of the beast (king).
out of the mouth of the false prophet.

Satan will be cast into the bottomless pit in Revelation 20:1-3.

The beast (king) and false prophet will be cast into the lake of fire in Revelation 19:20.

 

[ewq1938]

Revelation 16:13, it shows three persons. Satan, the beast-king, the false prophet.

Of the two beasts of Rev 13 etc, one is a kingdom just like in Daniel 7, and the other one is the FP who is a person. You keep thinking the kingdom beast is a person when it is not.

 

[Douggg]

Of the two beasts of Rev 13 etc, one is a kingdom just like in Daniel 7, and the other one is the FP who is a person. You keep thinking the kingdom beast is a person when it is not.

It is the head on the beast out of the sea that becomes the beast king. The kingdom of the beast-king is in Revelation 13:1-2.

In Revelation 13:3, one of the seven heads on the beast will be mortally wounded but healed. That mortally/wounded but healed head is the beast-king, a person, in Revelation 13::3-8. It obviously talking about the beast as being a person in these verses.

3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

 

[ewq1938]

It is the head on the beast out of the sea that becomes the beast king.

Rev does not speak of anything of the sort. Instead, it says the heads are mountains which are areas of land, not kings/people...Rev 17

 

[Douggg]

Rev does not speak of anything of the sort. Instead, it says the heads are mountains which are areas of land, not kings/people...Rev 17

Mountains are not "him"s. Neither are kingdoms "him" s. Mountains and Kingdoms are "it"s.

In Revelation 13:3-8, the text is referring to "him" - a person.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Mountains are not "him"s. Neither are kingdoms "him" s. Mountains and Kingdoms are "it"s.

In Revelation 13:3-8, the text is referring to "him" - a person.

Do you not have any idea of how symbolism works?

Revelation 17:3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. 4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication: 5 And upon her forehead was a name written, Mystery, Babylon The Great, The Mother Of Harlots And Abominations Of The Earth. 6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

So, when this passage refers to "her", that means it's referring to a person? Using the logic you use regarding the reference to "him" in Revelation 13, that is what you would have to conclude. But, of course, the passage is not referring to a person. So, your argument that references to the beast as "him" in Revelation 13 mean that the beast is a person is not valid. Symbolic entities can be referred to as "him" or "her" without referring to human beings.

 

[Douggg]

Do you not have any idea of how symbolism works?

Revelation 17:3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. 4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication: 5 And upon her forehead was a name written, Mystery, Babylon The Great, The Mother Of Harlots And Abominations Of The Earth. 6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

So, when this passage refers to "her", that means it's referring to a person? Using the logic you use regarding the reference to "him" in Revelation 13, that is what you would have to conclude. But, of course, the passage is not referring to a person. So, your argument that references to the beast as "him" in Revelation 13 mean that the beast is a person is not valid. Symbolic entities can be referred to as "him" or "her" without referring to human beings.

A woman is a "her". So what's the problem ?

A mountain is an "it".

 

[ewq1938]

Mountains are not "him"s. Neither are kingdoms "him" s. Mountains and Kingdoms are "it"s.

And the word is an it (neuter noun) in the Greek manuscripts. "him" in the English translation is misleading which is why any serious bible student needs to take Greek language courses to learn these things.

In Revelation 13:3-8, the text is referring to "him" - a person.

Nope. The Greek writing by John proves that wrong.

 

[Douggg]

And the word is an it (neuter noun) in the Greek manuscripts. "him" in the English translation is misleading which is why any serious bible student needs to take Greek language courses to learn these things.

Nope. The Greek writing by John proves that wrong.

You don't think that the translators of the kjv bible understood Greek ?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

A woman is a "her". So what's the problem ?

Are you even trying to see my point? Put more effort into this, Douggg. Do you think the following is talking about a literal woman when it refers to "her"?

Revelation 17:3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. 4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication: 5 And upon her forehead was a name written, Mystery, Babylon The Great, The Mother Of Harlots And Abominations Of The Earth. 6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

Is it talking about a literal woman when it talks about the harlot in Revelation? No, it's not. The harlot is a symbolic entity, not a literal one. The text refers to that symbolic entity called a harlot, a woman and Babylon as "her". That symbolic entity does not represent a literal woman. Likewise, the beast is a symbolic entity referred to sometimes as "him" (sometimes as "it"), but that doesn't make the beast symbolically represent a literal man any more than the harlot Babylon symbolically represents a literal woman just because it refers to that symbolic entity as "her".

 

[ewq1938]

You don't think that the translators of the kjv bible understood Greek ?

Sometimes bias creeps in. Why don't you explain how someone translates a neuter noun as a masculine noun?

 

[Douggg]

Sometimes bias creeps in. Why don't you explain how someone translates a neuter noun as a masculine noun?

I am not going to get into the Greek grammar issues.

btw, separate question - is 1938 of ewq, the year of your birth ?

 

[ewq1938]

I am not going to get into the Greek grammar issues.

Well, it's extremely important. Even in English, is a neuter noun a he or an it?

btw, separate question - is 1938 of ewq, the year of your birth ?

No. It is just random numbers.

 

[Davy]

Davy,

Revelation 16:13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.

out of the mouth of the dragon (Satan). Who will be Indwelling the speaking statue image of the beast-king.

Satan will be the beast king. That is learned by putting together the revelations about him in Rev.9, Rev.11, Rev.12, Rev.13, and Rev.17. He is the beast that ascends up out of the bottomless pit that will kill God's "two witnesses" in Jerusalem. And that "bottomless pit" is simply a place in the Heavenly like Hades.

out of the mouth of the beast (king)

The Revelation 'beast' idea is applied 2 ways, about a beast kingdom, and a beast king. Rev.16:13 is about the beast CONCEPT, as a ROLE.

out of the mouth of the false prophet

Satan will not be any of the 7 kings of Revelation 17:10.

The false prophet idea is about Satan in the ROLE of false prophet. He is coming to mimic Lord Jesus, Who also was a Prophet.

Furthermore, we 'know'... the "beast" and "false prophet" represent ROLES only that are destroyed at Christ's appearing. We know they CANNOT be flesh men, simply because no flesh-born soul is cast into the "lake of fire" until AFTER God's Great White Throne Judgment of Rev.20.

 

[William Barton]

Rev 19 shows one person beast and the kingdom beast so not two people. No biblical writer ever wrote of two such end times people.

Do you not have any idea of how symbolism works?

Revelation 17:3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. 4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication

 

[Douggg]

Well, it's extremely important. Even in English, is a neuter noun a he or an it?

"he" is a pronoun. Not a noun. "he" refers to a male.

 

[Davy]

"he" is a pronoun. Not a noun. "he" refers to a male.

If you are relying on the KJV pronouns used in the 1st beast description to define that 1st beast that comes up out of the "sea", then you have already missed which beast those Revelation 13:1-3 are pointing to. Regardless of the pronouns there of "his" and "him" which the KJV translators used, the actual subject there is the beast KINGDOM of ten horns, seven heads, and ten crowns, a SYSTEM.

 

[Douggg]

Satan will be the beast king.

Davy,

In Revelation 20:1-3, Satan will be cast into the bottomless pit upon Jesus's return.

Differently, the beast-king and the false prophet will be cast in the lake of fire, in Revelation 19:20, at Jesus's return.

Furthermore, we 'know'... the "beast" and "false prophet" represent ROLES only that are destroyed at Christ's appearing. We know they CANNOT be flesh men, simply because no flesh-born soul is cast into the "lake of fire" until AFTER God's Great White Throne Judgment of Rev.20.

The beast-king and false prophet are exceptions. They will be cast into the lake of fire the day of Jesus's return.

 

[Douggg]

If you are relying on the KJV pronouns used in the 1st beast description to define that 1st beast that comes up out of the "sea", then you have already missed which beast those Revelation 13:1-3 are pointing to. Regardless of the pronouns there of "his" and "him" which the KJV translators used, the actual subject there is the beast KINGDOM of ten horns, seven heads, and ten crowns, a SYSTEM.

Revelation 13:1-2 is the beast kingdom.

Revelation 13:3 then turns the focus to beast-king as one of the heads mortally wounded, but healed.