The fallacy of believing Jesus was talking about the temple of stones on the Mount of Olives

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Spiritual Israelite

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Like I predicted, I knew you still would not get it because of your DENIAL or spiritual blindness.

I can see where you get your view from, but I don’t agree with limiting Matthew 24:1–2 to a strictly physical prediction about the temple buildings.

Scripture repeatedly uses temple and stone imagery to represent people and God’s covenant community.
But, when it does that it makes it clear when that is the case. There is no such indication whatsoever in Matthew 24:1-2. But, do you care about that? Of course not.

People are called ‘living stones,’
Yes, and when that is the case is there any question that it's talking about people instead of literal living stones? Of course not. Where is there any indication in Matthew 24:1-2 that it's talking about people rather than the literal physical temple buildings standing at that time?

and the New Testament church is described as the body of Christ. So symbolic meaning is not something added later—it is already built into how God uses this language.
This doesn't mean that you can conclude that every single mention of a temple is referring to the church. That's ridiculous.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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Okay, I am going to ask if you would please tell me why you made this statement. If we are to have a productive back and forth / give and take discussion on these difficult matters in Daniel, I am going to need to understand why you have no idea what I was saying.
Here is what you had said:

CTK said:
Of course I believe the 70 weeks of years prophecy has been fulfilled - completely by the Messiah. All of 9:24 was fulfilled at His coming. The 4th and final Great Jubilee cycle, which from a time perspective, runs parallel to the prophecy is unfinished because of their rejection and crucifixion of their Messiah. Same exact timeline but two separate elements to be fulfilled - the prophecy and the 4th Great Jubilee.
First, you said the 70 weeks of years prophecy has been fulfilled and then you talked about an element of it that is yet to be fulfilled. So, do you believe the 70 weeks of years prophecy is fulfilled or not? It can't be both fulfilled and yet to be fulfilled.
 

CTK

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Here is what you had said:

First, you said the 70 weeks of years prophecy has been fulfilled and then you talked about an element of it that is yet to be fulfilled. So, do you believe the 70 weeks of years prophecy is fulfilled or not? It can't be both fulfilled and yet to be fulfilled.
I believe I made it clear the 70 year prophecy was completely fulfilled by the Messiah despite that He was cut off in the midst of the week. There was no unfinished business- He fulfilled 9:24 and returned to His Father. “It is finished.”

I also spoke about the 490 year 4th and final Great Jubilee which ran concurrently with the 70 year prophecy- same starting point, same length of time, same ending date. However, because they rejected and crucified their Messiah exactly 3.5 years BEFORE the end of the Great Jubilee cycle they failed to complete the 4th Great Jubilee cycle.

Meaning, they must complete the remaining 3.5 years- no other group, church, etc., can complete it. And the Messiah can / will return only at the completion of this final GJ cycle.

And this is where the end time 1260 day prophecy comes in .. Whwn the time of the Gentiles is over God will remove the blindness from His people and they will go out and preach the Good News for those 1260 days 3.5 years) - no different than what Paul did after his Damascus experience. This represents His people being restored with their God and fulfill the 490 years of the 4th Great Jubilee which ran cycle.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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I believe I made it clear the 70 year prophecy was completely fulfilled by the Messiah despite that He was cut off in the midst of the week. There was no unfinished business- He fulfilled 9:24 and returned to His Father. “It is finished.”
Yeah, you were clear about that with one statement, but then you made another statement that seemed to contradict that. Can you not understand why I saw it that way?

I also spoke about the 490 year 4th and final Great Jubilee which ran concurrently with the 70 year prophecy- same starting point, same length of time, same ending date.
What does that have to do with the 70 weeks? I'm just trying to talk about the 70 week prophecy. No need to bring something else into the picture to make things confusing.

However, because they rejected and crucified their Messiah exactly 3.5 years BEFORE the end of the Great Jubilee cycle they failed to complete the 4th Great Jubilee cycle.
What does that even mean and what does it have to do with the 70 week prophecy?

Meaning, they must complete the remaining 3.5 years- no other group, church, etc., can complete it.
How do you come to this conclusion?

And the Messiah can / will return only at the completion of this final GJ cycle.
How do you come to this conclusion?

And this is where the end time 1260 day prophecy comes in
I don't believe any of the time periods given in Revelation are meant to be understood literally, so I disagree with taking that as a literal 1260 days.

.. Whwn the time of the Gentiles is over God will remove the blindness from His people and they will go out and preach the Good News for those 1260 days 3.5 years) - no different than what Paul did after his Damascus experience. This represents His people being restored with their God and fulfill the 490 years of the 4th Great Jubilee which ran cycle.
God's people are those who belong to Christ (Galatians 3:26) and none of them are blind. Blindness has been removed from Israelite people over the past almost 2,000 years starting with some of those in Paul's day who had their blindness removed thanks to Paul's preaching (Romans 11:11-14).
 

CTK

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Yeah, you were clear about that with one statement, but then you made another statement that seemed to contradict that. Can you not understand why I saw it that way?


What does that have to do with the 70 weeks? I'm just trying to talk about the 70 week prophecy. No need to bring something else into the picture to make things confusing.


What does that even mean and what does it have to do with the 70 week prophecy?


How do you come to this conclusion?


How do you come to this conclusion?


I don't believe any of the time periods given in Revelation are meant to be understood literally, so I disagree with taking that as a literal 1260 days.


God's people are those who belong to Christ (Galatians 3:26) and none of them are blind. Blindness has been removed from Israelite people over the past almost 2,000 years starting with some of those in Paul's day who had their blindness removed thanks to Paul's preaching (Romans 11:11-14).


To be candid, I do feel that I’ve taken the time to lay out a fairly complete framework. At the same time, it seems there’s a reluctance to consider that prophecy—especially in Daniel and Revelation—often involves more than one layer of meaning or fulfillment.

One of the key things I’ve come to appreciate is how closely Daniel and Revelation are connected. It’s very difficult to interpret Revelation well without first working through Daniel, because Daniel identifies many of the key patterns—timing, actors, and structures—that are later presented symbolically in Revelation.

When you ask how I’ve arrived at these conclusions, the honest answer is that it came from spending 7 years working through Daniel carefully. What I found is that very few verses in Daniel stand alone. The early chapters connect with the later ones, and the book as a whole ties into the Gospels and Revelation. It really functions as an integrated system rather than isolated statements.

I also agree with you that Revelation is largely symbolic. But that doesn’t separate it from Daniel—it actually reinforces the connection, because many of those symbols appear to build on what Daniel already introduced.

To give you an example, when I worked through Daniel 9, I initially thought I had a solid understanding of the seventy weeks. But the more I looked at it, the more questions remained: Why does the timeline begin where it does? Why does the Messiah’s ministry appear to stop at the midpoint of the final week? How do we account for the remaining portion of that week? And how do these elements connect to what we see later in the Gospels and Revelation? Is there a true "gap" which just about everyone believes - whether the remaining 3.5 years or the entire 7 year period - last week have been thrown into the end times. And if so, does that mean that Jesus failed to complete all of 9:24? Everything in Daniel is connected, yet almost all interpret Daniel in a "historical" manner - how can we match these events and actors in Daniel to our history books. God is not writing a history book.

Let me ask you a quick question that arose during the same study on chapter 9 and the remaining 3.5 years of the final week.... can you tell me why the Messiah went to the cross at the 3.5 year marker? Why didn't He continue to the end of the final week? Can you find that answer in Revelation - NO, can you find that answer in the Gospels - YES. But again, unless one is willing to TRY and ensure there are no "hanging chads" if you will - either on the front or back end of the interpretation, you will usually not come to the right interpretation.

So, how do I come to these conclusions? But confirming that the interpretation is supported by the previous prophetic verses given to us and they fit in very well with the latter prophetic verses - like the 3.5 years or 1260 days in Revelation.
 
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claninja

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Like I predicted, I knew you still would not get it because of your DENIAL or spiritual blindness.

I can see where you get your view from, but I don’t agree with limiting Matthew 24:1–2 to a strictly physical prediction about the temple buildings.

Scripture repeatedly uses temple and stone imagery to represent people and God’s covenant community. People are called ‘living stones,’ and the New Testament church is described as the body of Christ. So symbolic meaning is not something added later—it is already built into how God uses this language.

From that standpoint, when Jesus says ‘not one stone will be left upon another,’ he clearly referring to the removal the kingdom representative from the people of the old covenant (Israel), not merely the physical structure itself. This is the judgment upon THIS PEOPLE. Not physical stones in 70AD. Have you already forgotten that based on Christ's prophecy, the temple must destroyed and in three days he will rebuilt it. Clearly this did not take place in 70AD because you got the wrong stones of the temple to begin with! The Scribes and Pharisees did not understand it. AND Christ's disciples did not understand this either! No wondered they were still thought about beautiful stones of the buildings. You also should know that the disciples did not fully grasp this at the time, but later revelation through the Holy Spirit clarifies the deeper meaning. That’s why I read Matthew 24 in connection with passages like Luke 19 and the broader New Testament teaching on the true temple being God’s people.

How do you know scripture repeatedly uses stone imagery to represent God’s covenant community?
 

Spiritual Israelite

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To be candid, I do feel that I’ve taken the time to lay out a fairly complete framework. At the same time, it seems there’s a reluctance to consider that prophecy—especially in Daniel and Revelation—often involves more than one layer of meaning or fulfillment.
I see no indication of that at all in Daniel 9:24-27, so I don't think there is any basis for believing that in regards to that particular prophecy.

One of the key things I’ve come to appreciate is how closely Daniel and Revelation are connected. It’s very difficult to interpret Revelation well without first working through Daniel, because Daniel identifies many of the key patterns—timing, actors, and structures—that are later presented symbolically in Revelation.
I don't see it that way. Not that there isn't any insight that can be gained from the book of Daniel, but the book of Revelation is a New Testament book and it has a lot in common with the rest of the New Testament books as far as its focus on Jesus, the church and the enemies of Jesus and the church. So, I believe the way to understand Revelation is to understand what the rest of the New Testament teaches about things that are talked about in the book such as the way Christians should live their lives, persecution, overcoming temptations and the things of the world, Jesus reigning, believers being priests, the second coming of Christ, the resurrection of the dead and the judgment.

When you ask how I’ve arrived at these conclusions, the honest answer is that it came from spending 7 years working through Daniel carefully. What I found is that very few verses in Daniel stand alone. The early chapters connect with the later ones, and the book as a whole ties into the Gospels and Revelation. It really functions as an integrated system rather than isolated statements.

I also agree with you that Revelation is largely symbolic. But that doesn’t separate it from Daniel—it actually reinforces the connection, because many of those symbols appear to build on what Daniel already introduced.

To give you an example, when I worked through Daniel 9, I initially thought I had a solid understanding of the seventy weeks. But the more I looked at it, the more questions remained: Why does the timeline begin where it does? Why does the Messiah’s ministry appear to stop at the midpoint of the final week? How do we account for the remaining portion of that week?
Do you believe the remaining portion of the 70th week is fulfilled or not? I believe the way to account for the remaining portion of the week is to understand that the prophecy is in relation to Israel and the 70th week relates to the confirming of the new covenant. Christ's death obviously is what established the new covenant, but the confirming of the new covenant in Israel involved the preaching of the gospel of Christ in Israel before it went to the Gentiles. So, the remaining portion of the 70th week involves the preaching of the gospel in Israel. Sure, the prophecy doesn't explicitly tell us that, but it's a far better explanation than trying to claim that the remaining portion of the 70th week is unfulfilled. There is no indication whatsoever in the prophecy that there would be any gap or pause in any of the 70 weeks. A time period of 70 weeks (490 years) was determined from beginning to end to fulfill the six things listed in Daniel 9:24 as well as the confirming of the covenant, which we agree refers to the new covenant.

And how do these elements connect to what we see later in the Gospels and Revelation? Is there a true "gap" which just about everyone believes - whether the remaining 3.5 years or the entire 7 year period - last week have been thrown into the end times.
No, there is no gap. And what do you mean just about everyone believes that? That isn't true.

And if so, does that mean that Jesus failed to complete all of 9:24?
Of course He didn't.

Let me ask you a quick question that arose during the same study on chapter 9 and the remaining 3.5 years of the final week.... can you tell me why the Messiah went to the cross at the 3.5 year marker? Why didn't He continue to the end of the final week?
See above. The rest of the week was for the purpose of preaching the gospel of Christ to Israel before it went to the Gentiles in order to confirm the new covenant to them.

Can you find that answer in Revelation - NO, can you find that answer in the Gospels - YES.
And what do you think the answer is exactly?

But again, unless one is willing to TRY and ensure there are no "hanging chads" if you will - either on the front or back end of the interpretation, you will usually not come to the right interpretation.

So, how do I come to these conclusions? But confirming that the interpretation is supported by the previous prophetic verses given to us and they fit in very well with the latter prophetic verses - like the 3.5 years or 1260 days in Revelation.
You lost me here. Do you believe that the 1260 days in Revelation represents the last 3.5 years of the 70th week? If so, do you believe that those 1260 days are literal days and were fulfilled during the last half of the 70th week? Or do you think those 1260 days are yet future? If so, I'm not sure how you can claim that you believe the 70 weeks are completely fulfilled.
 

CTK

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I see no indication of that at all in Daniel 9:24-27, so I don't think there is any basis for believing that in regards to that particular prophecy.


I don't see it that way. Not that there isn't any insight that can be gained from the book of Daniel, but the book of Revelation is a New Testament book and it has a lot in common with the rest of the New Testament books as far as its focus on Jesus, the church and the enemies of Jesus and the church. So, I believe the way to understand Revelation is to understand what the rest of the New Testament teaches about things that are talked about in the book such as the way Christians should live their lives, persecution, overcoming temptations and the things of the world, Jesus reigning, believers being priests, the second coming of Christ, the resurrection of the dead and the judgment.


Do you believe the remaining portion of the 70th week is fulfilled or not? I believe the way to account for the remaining portion of the week is to understand that the prophecy is in relation to Israel and the 70th week relates to the confirming of the new covenant. Christ's death obviously is what established the new covenant, but the confirming of the new covenant in Israel involved the preaching of the gospel of Christ in Israel before it went to the Gentiles. So, the remaining portion of the 70th week involves the preaching of the gospel in Israel. Sure, the prophecy doesn't explicitly tell us that, but it's a far better explanation than trying to claim that the remaining portion of the 70th week is unfulfilled. There is no indication whatsoever in the prophecy that there would be any gap or pause in any of the 70 weeks. A time period of 70 weeks (490 years) was determined from beginning to end to fulfill the six things listed in Daniel 9:24 as well as the confirming of the covenant, which we agree refers to the new covenant.


No, there is no gap. And what do you mean just about everyone believes that? That isn't true.


Of course He didn't.


See above. The rest of the week was for the purpose of preaching the gospel of Christ to Israel before it went to the Gentiles in order to confirm the new covenant to them.


And what do you think the answer is exactly?


You lost me here. Do you believe that the 1260 days in Revelation represents the last 3.5 years of the 70th week? If so, do you believe that those 1260 days are literal days and were fulfilled during the last half of the 70th week? Or do you think those 1260 days are yet future? If so, I'm not sure how you can claim that you believe the 70 weeks are completely fulfilled.
I believe we have studied Daniel very differently and have different interpretations. Thanks.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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I believe we have studied Daniel very differently and have different interpretations. Thanks.
Apparently so. That's your only response to everything I said? No specific thoughts at all on anything I said? I'm still not clear if you think the 70th week is completely fulfilled right up until the end of the 70th week. So, do you believe that is the case or not? Do you believe that the reference to 1260 days in Revelation represents the second half of the 70th week? It seems that you do. And it seems that you take it as a literal 1260 days? If so, when do you believe they took place or do you believe they will take place in the future?
 

CTK

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Apparently so. That's your only response to everything I said? No specific thoughts at all on anything I said? I'm still not clear if you think the 70th week is completely fulfilled right up until the end of the 70th week. So, do you believe that is the case or not? Do you believe that the reference to 1260 days in Revelation represents the second half of the 70th week? It seems that you do. And it seems that you take it as a literal 1260 days? If so, when do you believe they took place or do you believe they will take place in the future?
I have repeatedly given you a detailed response to the 70 weeks. I have gone into great details at times - and have even read where you do not think it is appropriate to write such long resolve cut paste the narratives that clearly offer my hand interpretations

So, I don’t believe we need to continue—- your primary response in most cases is “ I don’t see that in Daniel or Revelation…”

I think we should just move on. Best wishes.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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I have repeatedly given you a detailed response to the 70 weeks. I have gone into great details at times - and have even read where you do not think it is appropriate to write such long resolve cut paste the narratives that clearly offer my hand interpretations

So, I don’t believe we need to continue—- your primary response in most cases is “ I don’t see that in Daniel or Revelation…”

I think we should just move on. Best wishes.
I'm fine with moving on, but you can't take a short bit of time to just tell me when you believe the 1260 days referenced in Revelation took place or will take place and whether you think it represents the second half of the 70th week or not?
 

CTK

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I'm fine with moving on, but you can't take a short bit of time to just tell me when you believe the 1260 days referenced in Revelation took place or will take place and whether you think it represents the second half of the 70th week or not?
I have already answered those questions. Please take a short bit of time and re-read some of my responses to you- you should not have a problem seeing them. Best wishes.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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I have already answered those questions. Please take a short bit of time and re-read some of my responses to you- you should not have a problem seeing them. Best wishes.
I know you think you answered those questions, but not in a way that I could understand. And it would take a good amount of time to re-read all your mostly long responses. I'm not going to do that. I'm asking for clarification. Is it not acceptable to you that someone might not understand some things that you say? It's very odd that you're not willing to take a minute to answer my question in order to clarify what you believe about the 70th week and the 1260 days. But, whatever.
 

CTK

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I know you think you answered those questions, but not in a way that I could understand. And it would take a good amount of time to re-read all your mostly long responses. I'm not going to do that. I'm asking for clarification. Is it not acceptable to you that someone might not understand some things that you say? It's very odd that you're not willing to take a minute to answer my question in order to clarify what you believe about the 70th week and the 1260 days. But, whatever.
I am sorry but I have answered those questions a few times in addition to the long narratives I sent you. I would kindly ask you to re-read my responses #’s 258, 265, 287, 303, and 305.

Thanks so much.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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I am sorry but I have answered those questions a few times in addition to the long narratives I sent you. I would kindly ask you to re-read my responses #’s 258, 265, 287, 303, and 305.

Thanks so much.
I re-read those responses and I don't see clear answers to my questions there. You make things confusing by referring to some "fourth and final Great Jubilee cycle". What is that and where do you get that from in scripture? I see you reference that multiple times, but I don't see any explanation for what that is exactly. You apparently see that as being something completely separate from the 70 week prophecy?
 

CTK

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I re-read those responses and I don't see clear answers to my questions there. You make things confusing by referring to some "fourth and final Great Jubilee cycle". What is that and where do you get that from in scripture? I see you reference that multiple times, but I don't see any explanation for what that is exactly. You apparently see that as being something completely separate from the 70 week prophecy?
Please see #287, thanks.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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Please see #287, thanks.
Based on that post it appears that you do not believe that the last 3.5 years of the 70th week are yet fulfilled which means you see a pause or gap in the 70th week. The text of Daniel 9:24 does not allow for any pause or gap in any of the 70 weeks. For 70 weeks (490 years) to be determined means that a 70 week (490 year) time period was determined for the six things listed in Daniel 9:24 and the confirming of the covenant mentioned in Daniel 9:27 to be fulfilled. So, it's not possible that the 70th week is not yet completely fulfilled.
 

Jay Ross

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Based on that post it appears that you do not believe that the last 3.5 years of the 70th week are yet fulfilled which means you see a pause or gap in the 70th week. The text of Daniel 9:24 does not allow for any pause or gap in any of the 70 weeks. For 70 weeks (490 years) to be determined means that a 70 week (490 year) time period was determined for the six things listed in Daniel 9:24 and the confirming of the covenant mentioned in Daniel 9:27 to be fulfilled. So, it's not possible that the 70th week is not yet completely fulfilled.

When we consider Daniel 9:24-27, the six prophecies span 490, 483, 2000 years with verse 27 spanning around 24 years in our distant future at the end of the seventh age. The second and fourth prophetic days only spanning around three or so days.

Forcing our understanding on scripture is not profitable for us to do.
 
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Spiritual Israelite

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When we consider Daniel 9:24-27, the six prophecies span 490, 483, 2000 years with verse 27 spanning around 24 years in our distant future at the end of the seventh age. The second and fourth prophetic days only spanning around three or so days.

Forcing our understanding on scripture is not profitable for us to do.
kk.gif


That nonsense doesn't deserve any other response beyond hysterical laughter. Please let us know if you ever decide to get serious.
 
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TribulationSigns

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Where is any of this taught in Matthew 24?

Once again, that's a terrible way for you to try to exegete the Scriptures. Where is it found in Isaiah 40:2 when God was saying to comfort Jerusalem, He was talking about people, not a literal city? It's not found there; it is found in other Scriptures that are relevant to it and explain it. Likewise, in Numbers 20:11 where Moses smote the rock, where is it written there that the Rock symbolized Christ? ...it's not. The truth of this is found in other passages and chapters of Scripture that illuminate this gospel truth (Ps 78:20). e.g.

1st Corinthians 10:4
  • "And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ."
To try to exegete Scripture without the qualification of Scripture is a fool's errand. Because Scripture is not understood in a vacuum. It is understood by the time-honored edict of God for us to study to show ourselves approved or accepted of God, as faithful workmen (2nd Timothy 2:15) that we rightly discern it as truthful messengers of God's glorious word. Because:

Proverbs 25:2
  • "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter."
It is an honor to search out what God's word means, and it is to the glory of God. If God intended for everyone to understand Scripture correctly, He would not have spoken in parables, or had it written in esoteric language, or mysterious imagery and cryptic terminology. Where is it written in Matthew 24 that when God said, "ye shall hear of wars and rumors of wars, see that ye be not troubled," He wasn't referring to literal, physical ways, but spiritual warfare? The truth of these wars is found in other Scriptures! If someone hearing rumors about literal wars was a sign, then that would be no sign. Because we have always had, and always will have, rumors of war on the sin-cursed earth. But open warfare with God is something that never happens until the love of God grows cold in the world. THEN, you have a sign that the coming of Christ is near. Selah!

My point is that it doesn't have to be taught in Matthew chapter 24 like you think, because no Scripture stands as an island. Scripture "must" be interpreted by Scripture rather than man. Or to put it another way, "the Bible is its own interpreter!"

Selah!