The Deception of Tithing and Paid Pastors

[Rockerduck]

The way I see it. Would you go to a church that doesn't have AC and Heat, and bathrooms? The church needs funds for that. Maybe in a small church you can show up in spring and not use the bathrooms. But I've been to close to 100 different church's and all had AC and Heat, and bathrooms. Even the smallest, that meets in a house. The more people in a house the more utility bills. So, even in a house church, your earnings will dwindle down fast, loosing a couple $100 a month to host in your house, if your neighbors don't complain about parking.

 

[TitusTwoWife]

where nothing is taught,

Each male in the assembly of church could participate and share, not just the pastor. It can easily be done.

 

[Behold]

The way I see it. Would you go to a church that doesn't have AC and Heat, and bathrooms? The church needs funds for that. Maybe in a small church you can show up in spring and not use the bathrooms. But I've been to close to 100 different church's and all had AC and Heat, and bathrooms. Even the smallest, that meets in a house. The more people in a house the more utility bills. So, even in a house church, your earnings will dwindle down fast, loosing a couple $100 a month to host in your house, if your neighbors don't complain about parking.

"It costs to reach the lost".

It cost Jesus His blood and body, and today it costs money to get the word out.
It costs money to help the needy.

Jesus told us that we are to give to the Poor.
Proverbs teaches the same.
In both cases this has to do with not just time and concern.., as when Jesus told us to "feed the poor".....and "take care of the "orphans and widows"....>He's talking about food, clothes, shelter..........all of this, and that CARE costs MONEY.

 

[Behold]

Each male in the assembly of church could participate and share, not just the pastor. It can easily be done.

But your way, is not how the NT directs the setting up of a Local Church., tho it might work out fine if you are going to have people over for a bible study.

In my Church, everyone is allowed to share, but not everyone is allowed to be the Pastor or the SS Teacher or the Music Team, or a Deacon or Deaconess.
My Church Home allows people to worship freely as they feel it.........they can dance in the aisles......or lift holy hands, or similar.
My Favorite Type of Chruch allows for total freedom to worship God, and if that "cuts the sermon short" then preach it another time.
In the NT, they had a few Preachers preaching per service........not just one.

What my church requires is that you are FAITHFUL to the Church, and that you can prove you have some solid understand of NT Doctrine that Paul teaches..... So, all of that includes more then just showing up for the blessings.
Most real churches are the same......as they are looking for something specific regarding a person they bring in to be a part of the Ministry Team.

 

[Rockerduck]

"It costs to reach the lost".

It cost Jesus His blood and body, and today it costs money to get the word out.
It costs money to help the needy.

Jesus told us that we are to give to the Poor.
Proverbs teaches the same.
In both cases this has to do with not just time and concern.., as when Jesus told us to "feed the poor".....and "take care of the "orphans and widows"....>He's talking about food, clothes, shelter..........all of this, and that CARE costs MONEY.

True, I was just starting with the costs of utilities alone. Yes, I've worked with food pantry's too. It took donations and volunteers to distribute it. In a half way house in S. Carolina that had a church and soup kitchen for the inmates, I helped out there too. They took up an offering to fund the soup kitchen to feed the many there. At a homeless ministry I belonged to only took donations for clothing and food also, but to travel to camps and they passed the plate in church for gas and transporting. Preaching the gospel isn't free no matter how you look at it today.

 

[TitusTwoWife]

The way I see it. Would you go to a church that doesn't have AC and Heat, and bathrooms? The church needs funds for that. Maybe in a small church you can show up in spring and not use the bathrooms. But I've been to close to 100 different church's and all had AC and Heat, and bathrooms. Even the smallest, that meets in a house. The more people in a house the more utility bills. So, even in a house church, your earnings will dwindle down fast, loosing a couple $100 a month to host in your house, if your neighbors don't complain about parking.

There are Christians meeting in these types of buildings without AC and bathrooms every week in other countries. In a house church, its no different expense wise than hosting football night at your house. Hospitality is a virtue and for the first three centuries of Christian history, believers met in houses.

 

[TitusTwoWife]

But your way, is not how the NT directs the setting up of a Local Church., tho it might work out fine if you are going to have people over for a bible study.

The elders, deacons, and pastors oversee a group edifying one another in a home church in the New Testament.

 

[TitusTwoWife]

Jesus told us that we are to give to the Poor.
Proverbs teaches the same.
In both cases this has to do with not just time and concern.., as when Jesus told us to "feed the poor".....and "take care of the "orphans and widows"....>He's talking about food, clothes, shelter..........all of this, and that CARE costs MONEY.

I agree. Let's give to the care of those in need  directly as we have opportunity. In no way do we need fancy buildings to do this. Every individual can help those in need directly.

Tithing makes people think they've done their duty to those in need even though only about 5 percent of the church budget usually goes to outreach.

There's usually a building fund at churches too. This is used by churches to remain in non profit status while growing the tithe base and funds of the church. They can grow in donations without losing tax-exempt status.

 

[Jay Ross]

Tithing makes people think they've done their duty

Within the Jewish culture, they tithed around 23% yearly on average. I wonder if people can be stretched that far, today, to rely on the Lord to help them stretch the 77% that they have retained to pay all of their bills and needs with God's help.

Tithing is not a requirement, but trusting God is, as He helps us live within what we retain.

 

[stevesonthebay]

I think Christ said to the disciples that they were to take nothing but the sandels on their feet and their bags. Which I assume had their only possessions.

I cannot remember if it was Paul or maybe Clement that said that a visiting elder should not ask for food. This was a way to decern if they were truely for Christ that they did not expect anything.

I think this is a good measure. In reality all Christians should be giving most of their things to help the church and poor. But Ithink this should be based on the same principle that its not about making the anyone or the church well off or be owed something.

There is pressure today to conform to the world to be relevant and look like they are well off or elite even. I think the opposite is what will make the church great again.

 

[marks]

Hospitality is a virtue and for the first three centuries of Christian history, believers met in houses.

Yes, they met in houses, but literally many 1,000's gathered for meetings, at the temple, the church in Antioch, the first first churches were what we would call "mega church".

Much love!

 

[marks]

I agree. Let's give to the care of those in need  directly as we have opportunity. In no way do we need fancy buildings to do this. Every individual can help those in need directly.

What do you have against our meeting in a building purchased for that use? What is wrong with several hundred of us gathering together? Why do you reject the idea that we can have a full time pastor who should have a nice house and medical insurance and good food? He works hard, he does well (total understatement), why shouldn't we support him and his family?

Do you think someone is being shortchanged because someone else is receiving our love? Do you realize the many good works we are accomplishing as a group that wouldn't happen if we were all collections of a dozen or so in a living room?

We wouldn't have built schools and orphanages in Africa. We would not be building homes for people in South America. We would not be sending out missionary teams throughout the world.

The previous pastor is currently living in a town on the edge of the Gobi desert in Mongolia, that has no Christian church, and no Christians when he went there. He's begun a house church with the converts, but this wouldn't happen without our financial base.

The property works well for VBS for the kids in summer. Afterward, the parents often start coming to church. We support Living Well and Love Life, who provide pregnant women alternatives to abortion.

I could go on and on and on.

Our pastor is an excellent Bible teacher, filled with the Spirit and with wisdom, and God has given opportunity for several hundred believers to be blessed with His good teaching.

I've been delivered from an evil by the prayers of our church.

I'm not saying we are not to have our personal ministry to others. I am saying that our church is a very good and vital place. And we do have a separate fund for property maintenance and building projects, so that we can give to that particular use if we wish, without having to use funds given for missions or outreach or what have you. We keep it separate so you can give as you wish for what use you wish. They actually have a number of accounts for this purpose.

When Jesus healed all who came to Him, the word for "multitudes" was used to describe the massive crowds. When the church at Antioch was spoken of, Luke wrote that Paul and others taught a "considerable multitude", that is, significantly larger crowds then came to Jesus.

There is nothing wrong with a large church, a small church, all are able to serve God's purpose. Maybe you've been burned by a church overly focused on money, I don't know. But in no wise does that define all churches.

Much love!

 

[marks]

1 Timothy 5:16-18 KJV
16) If any man or woman that believeth have widows, let them relieve them, and let not the church be charged; that it may relieve them that are widows indeed.
17) Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.
18) For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.

At the end of the day, this is the final word, given us by God. If you have a good pastor who is in it full time, pay him well.

Would you rather have the church leaders spending their time in prayer and in the Word, or would you have them waiting tables or making machine parts full time, with prayer and the Word to be worked in around that? I know my answer!

Much love!

 

[TitusTwoWife]

What do you have against our meeting in a building purchased for that use? What is wrong with several hundred of us gathering together? Why do you reject the idea that we can have a full time pastor who should have a nice house and medical insurance and good food? He works hard, he does well (total understatement), why shouldn't we support him and his family?

There's nothing wrong with a rented building for gatherings as long as the focus is on the gathering and not the building. The people are the church, not the building. Buildings can be fine if they are mainly just for function.

But building funds just to avoid financial accountability and the church business model of today are not biblical. Pastors can do extremely well and I have no issue with it. They can work a job like most people do. But tithing as we know it today is completely unbiblical. It causes the truth to be watered down because how can you properly rebuke and correct those you are dependent on?

This is not the pattern Jesus and the disciples laid down and causes many to say that churches are greedy and corrupt and obsessed with money.

 

[TitusTwoWife]

Would you rather have the church leaders spending their time in prayer and in the Word, or would you have them waiting tables or making machine parts full time, with prayer and the Word to be worked in around that? I know my answer!

Is there something wrong with Paul? He made tents for a living.

 

[TitusTwoWife]

17) Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.

Honor and pay aren't the same thing.

 

[TitusTwoWife]

Check this out

2 Thessalonians 3:6-12
King James Version
6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.

7 For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you;

8 Neither did we eat any man's bread for nought; but wrought with labour and travail night and day, that we might not be chargeable to any of you:

9 Not because we have not power, but to make ourselves an ensample unto you to follow us.

10 For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.

 

[NayborBear]

Because of the "blindness" that comes with a "Great Commission Only" doctrine, or message, that seems to permeate in the "realm of hirelings?" The only GOOD news is?: "You keep buying Hope?" "I'll keep SELLING it!"

Not a good future for ones' like these!

Truth be told?
Many "bad actors" doing bad things in the "NAME of the Lord!"
Which? Comes out like this!:
Ezekiel 13:
3 Thus saith the Lord God; Woe unto the foolish prophets, that follow their own spirit, and have seen nothing!
4 O Israel, thy prophets are like the foxes in the deserts.
6 They have seen vanity and lying divination, saying, The Lord saith: and the Lord hath not sent them: and they have made others to hope that they would confirm the word.
9 And mine hand shall be upon the prophets that see vanity, and that divine lies: they shall not be in the assembly of my people, neither shall they be written in the writing of the house of Israel, neither shall they enter into the land of Israel; and ye shall know that I am the Lord God.
18 And say, Thus saith the Lord God; Woe to the women that sew pillows to all armholes, and make kerchiefs upon the head of every stature to hunt souls! Will ye hunt the souls of my people, and will ye save the souls alive that come unto you?
19 And will ye pollute me among my people for handfuls of barley and for pieces of bread, to slay the souls that should not die, and to save the souls alive that should not live, by your lying to my people that hear your lies?
20 Wherefore thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.
21 Your kerchiefs also will I tear, and deliver my people out of your hand, and they shall be no more in your hand to be hunted; and ye shall know that I am the Lord.

You cannot "Preach/Teach" at a 3rd or 4th grade level and EXPECT to "educate" people to the level of the "Higher Calling of God" Disciples that is also contained WITHIN the Great Commission.
And the continuation of this? Is what is known as Insanity!
Doing the same thing the same way, expecting better results!

 

[marks]

Honor and pay aren't the same thing.

Look at the context.

1 Timothy 5:16-18 KJV
16) If any man or woman that believeth have widows, let them relieve them, and let not the church be charged; that it may relieve them that are widows indeed.
17) Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.
18) For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.

And compare to,

1 Corinthians 9:4-12 KJV
4) Have we not power to eat and to drink?
5) Have we not power to lead about a sister, a wife, as well as other apostles, and as the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas?
6) Or I only and Barnabas, have not we power to forbear working?
7) Who goeth a warfare any time at his own charges? who planteth a vineyard, and eateth not of the fruit thereof? or who feedeth a flock, and eateth not of the milk of the flock?
8) Say I these things as a man? or saith not the law the same also?
9) For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?
10) Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.
11) If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things?
12) If others be partakers of this power over you, are not we rather? Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ.

This is clearly about material support.

Much love!

 

[marks]

There's nothing wrong with a rented building for gatherings as long as the focus is on the gathering and not the building. The people are the church, not the building. Buildings can be fine if they are mainly just for function.

But building funds just to avoid financial accountability and the church business model of today are not biblical. Pastors can do extremely well and I have no issue with it. They can work a job like most people do. But tithing as we know it today is completely unbiblical. It causes the truth to be watered down because how can you properly rebuke and correct those you are dependent on?

This is not the pattern Jesus and the disciples laid down and causes many to say that churches are greedy and corrupt and obsessed with money.

I'm not talking about tithing, that was for Israel. Our pastor is not dependent on the congregation. He's not a hireling. He depends on God. And why rent a building? That's just money gone, if you can purchase. And of course . . . of course! people are the church, the body of Christ. What do you think we want a building for except for its functionability?

You are stereotyping churches unfairly, I hope you will realize that. I'm sure there are many just as you describe, but your broad brush is slapping paint where it does not belong.

You are sitting in judgment of things you do not know. Come to my church, get to know us, then tell me what you think of our congregation, and that we have a building. But otherwise you are taking some bad experience you had somewhere else, and are assuming that's what everyone is like. Thankfully that's just not true.

Much love!