Rapture Thoughts of Some Early Church Leaders

[Trekson]

Christ "comes" in Rev 14.
Way before Rev 19.
Way way before the second coming.

Israel is represented in gomer. (Purchased in the end.)
She is referred to in the first miracle AT A WEDDING, when it was declared "....you saved the best for last."
"last" and "first" are interchangeable in God's plan.
The first becomes last, and the last becomes first.
Why do you think the blessing in the OT was to the second born ?
The Jews are the "first born".

Postrib rapture doctrine NEVER includes the bride and groom, nor the "first vs last" components.
Never.
Postrib rapture doctrine is 100% tribulation centered.
They neither understand the purpose of the trib, the rapture, the wedding in heaven, the bride/ groom component, nor who and what the 144,000 are.
Not to mention, they NEVER refer to the harvests or have ANY understanding of "firstfruits"
Flat out bizarre how tons of dynamics of end times is castvdown by them.
So much confusion and alterations/omissions.

Instead, all energy is over how brave they are for enduring the trib, and how evil we are for digging into our Bibles and placing verses on the table that go completely over their heads.

I show them over and over how all believers die that refuse the mark.
They refuse to process that information.

They CAN NOT admit the ark is in the heavens/ clouds during the flood/trib.
The fact, that Noah is gathered into the ark pretrib, (the ark being a type of heaven), and rises into the heavens and returns to earth postrib, is cast down by them....SMH

The Word "delusion", comes to mind.

Where do you see the blessing to the 2nd born. It's the first except for only a couple of occasions. If by "post trib" you mean post 70th week, then you are correct there is no rapture at that time, however, the GT will end by that time and the national salvation of Israel will come close to the middle of the week. You're also right that the bride will never get rapture as Rev. 19 show she is on earth awaiting the arrival of the bridegroom. Considering the paragraph before your last sentence, I would have to agree. Some believers will still be alive who have refused the mark as the rapture/resurrection is how Christ shortens the time of the GT upon the church.

 

[Trekson]

If you are preterist then that is a whole different bible, than my greek interlinear.

I most certainly am not a preterist, I'm a futurist, but if your bible is leading you to a pretrib understanding, perhaps you should change translations.

 

[rebuilder 454]

One has to deal w/ the NT not the old, in this regard. None of the disciples did and 1 Tim. 3:2 says a bishop/deacon "must" be the husband of only "one" wife. Christ isn't going to go contrary to His word.

I agree in part.
One thing to factor in: DAVID is the forerunner to Jesus and he had many wives.

IOW, It was "necessary" that the forerunner had many wives.
Jesus is the groom of all believers...many wives

 

[Trekson]

I agree in part.
One thing to factor in: DAVID is the forerunner to Jesus and he had many wives.

IOW, It was "necessary" that the forerunner had many wives.
Jesus is the groom of all believers...many wives

Sorry bro, but that is a nonsensical understanding. For that kind of stuff you have to stay w/ the NT. With that thinking one would be a Mormon.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Where do you see the blessing to the 2nd born. It's the first except for only a couple of occasions. If by "post trib" you mean post 70th week, then you are correct there is no rapture at that time, however, the GT will end by that time and the national salvation of Israel will come close to the middle of the week. You're also right that the bride will never get rapture as Rev. 19 show she is on earth awaiting the arrival of the bridegroom. Considering the paragraph before your last sentence, I would have to agree. Some believers will still be alive who have refused the mark as the rapture/resurrection is how Christ shortens the time of the GT upon the church.

Jacob and esau.
Solomon vs His older brother.
Efreim and Manassas
Isaac and Ismael
David over his older brothers
Joseph over his older brothers.
In none of all that did the firstborn receive the blessing.
You don't see the purpose in God's plan?

It ALL POINTS to the church and the ot covenant Jews.

Quote
""You're also right that the bride will never get rapture as Rev. 19 show she is on earth awaiting the arrival of the bridegroom. Considering the paragraph before your last sentence, I would have to agree. Some believers will still be alive who have refused the mark as the rapture/resurrection is how Christ shortens the time of the GT upon the church.""
1) actually in Rev 19 the church is in heaven.
That is a gimme.
2) the bride in heaven is called The WIFE in Rev 19. She becomes the wife in heaven.
3) there are no believers alive on earth that refuse the mark. We know this from Rev 13.
4) the time shortened is mid 7 yr trib for the elect ( the Jews) ....that is the gathering DURING the trib in Rev 14.
The Firstfruit Jews vividly depicted ( gathered first as firstfruits) , then main harvest Jews in vs 14 of rev 14.
Halfway through the 7yr trib is a harvest, depicted as "the days shortened for the elect.

Super simple and plain.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Sorry bro, but that is a nonsensical understanding. For that kind of stuff you have to stay w/ the NT. With that thinking one would be a Mormon.

Then please do not read Hebrews.
It is way over your head with tons of typology.

You will get only a history lesson in the bible, if the stories in it are one dimensional and mental.

IOW , all those OT stories, without spiritual discernment are abstracts.
No meaning.

I would hate to see your attitude with Jesus parables.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Sorry bro, but that is a nonsensical understanding. For that kind of stuff you have to stay w/ the NT. With that thinking one would be a Mormon.

I attend a Baptist Bible study 3 times a week, and I get basically the same fog out of them that you are experiencing, with any depth in the Old Testament types shadows, that Paul, Jesus, and the writer of Hebrews used in depth and understanding.

Mentalists are tedious to talk to.
The bible is a spirit book, written by the Spirit to spirit filled believers.

Calling God's book nonsensical shows me you are shallow and mental in God's word.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Then please do not read Hebrews.
It is way over your head with tons of typology.

You will get only a history lesson in the bible, if the stories in it are one dimensional and mental.

IOW , all those OT stories, without spiritual discernment are abstracts.
No meaning.

I would hate to see your attitude with Jesus parables.

Double post

 

[rebuilder 454]

Sorry bro, but that is a nonsensical understanding. For that kind of stuff you have to stay w/ the NT. With that thinking one would be a Mormon.

With that one dimensional approach you hamstring yourself and didn't even know the blessing of God, in God's plan and purpose goes to the second born.
I had to school you on that.
I we learned that dynamic in 1976 when I first got saved.
Such basic knowledge you have been robed of.
Definately fire those shallow teachers you are under.

 

[rebuilder 454]

I most certainly am not a preterist, I'm a futurist, but if your bible is leading you to a pretrib understanding, perhaps you should change translations.

Oh I can debate the very best of your teachers.
Ask one of your teachers for a postrib rapture verse.
Tell em you will wait for a response.
Then wait and wait and wait.
They, like you will not be able to give any.

We own end times big time.

 

[PinSeeker]

I most certainly am not a preterist, I'm a futurist, but if your bible is leading you to a pretrib understanding, perhaps you should change translations.

Well, one who holds to a "pretrib understanding" is, more broadly speaking, either historicist or futurist. But the historicist, futurist, and preterist schools of thought are all... wrong. It can looked at and discussed in much greater detail, of course, but even just from a 40,000 foot view, the Greek term "apokalypsis" (aποκάλυψις), which is found in Revelation 1:1, means "revelation" or "unveiling." So the book of Revelation is not about something that is yet future (futurism) or past (preterism) but of a present reality. And John calls what he's writing a prophecy; prophets wrote predominantly about present realities. John's purpose in writing it is to "pull back the curtain," if you will, to show what is literally going on around us right now. That's what John is "showing," in his visions... the very present spiritual war going on around us, both when he wrote it and now and at all times in between. That's the starting point for understanding John's revelation.

Grace and peace to you, Trekson.

 

[William Barton]

IMO the rapture is referenced in John 14:2-3, 1Corinthins 15:51-53, 1Thessalonians 4:15-17, Revelation 11:12, 14:16.

It occurs at the midpoint of the final seven years. The two witnesses (Revelation 11:3) are revived and raptured in Revelation 11:12.

 

[Trekson]

Jacob and esau.
Solomon vs His older brother.
Efreim and Manassas
Isaac and Ismael
David over his older brothers
Joseph over his older brothers.
In none of all that did the firstborn receive the blessing.
You don't see the purpose in God's plan?

It ALL POINTS to the church and the ot covenant Jews.

Quote
""You're also right that the bride will never get rapture as Rev. 19 show she is on earth awaiting the arrival of the bridegroom. Considering the paragraph before your last sentence, I would have to agree. Some believers will still be alive who have refused the mark as the rapture/resurrection is how Christ shortens the time of the GT upon the church.""
1) actually in Rev 19 the church is in heaven.
That is a gimme.
2) the bride in heaven is called The WIFE in Rev 19. She becomes the wife in heaven.
3) there are no believers alive on earth that refuse the mark. We know this from Rev 13.
4) the time shortened is mid 7 yr trib for the elect ( the Jews) ....that is the gathering DURING the trib in Rev 14.
The Firstfruit Jews vividly depicted ( gathered first as firstfruits) , then main harvest Jews in vs 14 of rev 14.
Halfway through the 7yr trib is a harvest, depicted as "the days shortened for the elect.

Super simple and plain.

In the NT, the word 'elect" only refers to the church, 1 Pet. 1:2, and it wasn't used that often in the OT either. That the church is in heaven at Rev. 19, I agree, however, the wife is on earth. Rev. 13 does 'not" say there will be no believers left alive. Rev. 14 is the separating of the wheat and the chaff of the church. The 144,000 are exactly who the bible says they are.

 

[Trekson]

Then please do not read Hebrews.
It is way over your head with tons of typology.

You will get only a history lesson in the bible, if the stories in it are one dimensional and mental.

IOW , all those OT stories, without spiritual discernment are abstracts.
No meaning.

I would hate to see your attitude with Jesus parables.

Literal possibilities, perhaps true, perhaps not, Christ explains them all and if one sees them any differently, then they are wrong. Some typology yes, tons...nope.

 

[Trekson]

I attend a Baptist Bible study 3 times a week, and I get basically the same fog out of them that you are experiencing, with any depth in the Old Testament types shadows, that Paul, Jesus, and the writer of Hebrews used in depth and understanding.

Mentalists are tedious to talk to.
The bible is a spirit book, written by the Spirit to spirit filled believers.

Calling God's book nonsensical shows me you are shallow and mental in God's word.

Trying to fit spiritualism into a book that should be taken literally in most cases doesn't lead to the truth. Most of the OT believers were "not" spirit filled. I neve called the bible nonsensical, just some folks false understanding of it.

 

[Trekson]

Oh I can debate the very best of your teachers.
Ask one of your teachers for a postrib rapture verse.
Tell em you will wait for a response.
Then wait and wait and wait.
They, like you will not be able to give any.

We own end times big time.

Matt. 24:29-31, 1 Thess. 5:3-5, Eph. 6:13, 2 Thess. 2:3-4, 1 Pet. 4:17-19, Rev. 6:9-11, Rev. 7:9-14 shows the post GT raptured/resurrected church arriving in heaven, Rev. 12:17, Rev. 13:7-10. These are all post-persecution verses. If by post-trib you mean post 70th week, then I agree there is no rapture at that time. Now I know you'll say these aren't the church, they are trib saints, but there is no such group. They are the still here church! That theology was made up by pre-tribbers to account for all the places it still shows who can only be described as church people.

 

[Trekson]

Well, one who holds to a "pretrib understanding" is, more broadly speaking, either historicist or futurist. But the historicist, futurist, and preterist schools of thought are all... wrong. It can looked at and discussed in much greater detail, of course, but even just from a 40,000 foot view, the Greek term "apokalypsis" (aποκάλυψις), which is found in Revelation 1:1, means "revelation" or "unveiling." So the book of Revelation is not about something that is yet future (futurism) or past (preterism) but of a present reality. And John calls what he's writing a prophecy; prophets wrote predominantly about present realities. John's purpose in writing it is to "pull back the curtain," if you will, to show what is literally going on around us right now. That's what John is "showing," in his visions... the very present spiritual war going on around us, both when he wrote it and now and at all times in between. That's the starting point for understanding John's revelation.

Grace and peace to you, Trekson.

LOL, Sorry, but the prophets hardly ever wrote for the people of their time. The average is 10-500 years in the future. The first prophecy of Gen. 3:15 took over 4000 yrs. to fulfill. The problem is trying to cram real time events into a prophesied future which all attempts to do so fail miserably.

 

[WPM]

Christ "comes" in Rev 14.
Way before Rev 19.
Way way before the second coming.

Israel is represented in gomer. (Purchased in the end.)
She is referred to in the first miracle AT A WEDDING, when it was declared "....you saved the best for last."
"last" and "first" are interchangeable in God's plan.
The first becomes last, and the last becomes first.
Why do you think the blessing in the OT was to the second born ?
The Jews are the "first born".

Postrib rapture doctrine NEVER includes the bride and groom, nor the "first vs last" components.
Never.
Postrib rapture doctrine is 100% tribulation centered.
They neither understand the purpose of the trib, the rapture, the wedding in heaven, the bride/ groom component, nor who and what the 144,000 are.
Not to mention, they NEVER refer to the harvests or have ANY understanding of "firstfruits"
Flat out bizarre how tons of dynamics of end times is castvdown by them.
So much confusion and alterations/omissions.

Instead, all energy is over how brave they are for enduring the trib, and how evil we are for digging into our Bibles and placing verses on the table that go completely over their heads.

I show them over and over how all believers die that refuse the mark.
They refuse to process that information.

They CAN NOT admit the ark is in the heavens/ clouds during the flood/trib.
The fact, that Noah is gathered into the ark pretrib, (the ark being a type of heaven), and rises into the heavens and returns to earth postrib, is cast down by them....SMH

The Word "delusion", comes to mind.

LOL. The men of ad hominem, avoidance and running. Your silence is deafening. You guys cannot abide the truth. Your doctrine and arguments are in tatters.

 

[William Barton]

IMO:
o Sixty nine sevens have passed.

o This leaves one seven for anti Christ.

o He confirms a covenant with the people for one seven (Daniel 9:27).

o He breaks it at the midpoint, declaring he is God. (Daniel 9:27).

o He is seized and thrown to hell when Jesus returns. (Revelation 19:20).

 

[rebuilder 454]

I most certainly am not a preterist, I'm a futurist, but if your bible is leading you to a pretrib understanding, perhaps you should change translations.

Oh I can debate the very best of your teachers.
Ask one of your teachers for a postrib rapture verse.
Tell em you will wait for a response.
Then wait and wait and wait.
They, like you will not be able to give any.

We own end time big time.

Matt. 24:29-31, 1 Thess. 5:3-5, Eph. 6:13, 2 Thess. 2:3-4, 1 Pet. 4:17-19, Rev. 6:9-11, Rev. 7:9-14 shows the post GT raptured/resurrected church arriving in heaven, Rev. 12:17, Rev. 13:7-10. These are all post-persecution verses. If by post-trib you mean post 70th week, then I agree there is no rapture at that time. Now I know you'll say these aren't the church, they are trib saints, but there is no such group. They are the still here church! That theology was made up by pre-tribbers to account for all the places it still shows who can only be described as church people.

You do not know the pretrib doctrine.
Of course those left behind martyrs , are the church.
They are tge 5 foolish virgins.
All 10 are virgins/saints.

5 worthy 5 foolish.
The rapture is worthy saints vs carnal saints.

Heaven authenticates via witnesses.
" let my word be confirmed in 2 or 3 witnesses."

1) Jesus said " pray That you may be counting worthy to escape the things about to come upon the Earth and stand before this son of god"
He said that to born again believers.

2) Jesus said " Because you have kept the word of my testimony. I will also keep you from the hour of testing that's about to come up on the whole world."

3) Jesus said "2 men will be in a bed. One will be taken the other 1 left. 2 women will be in a field, one will be taken in the other one left.

There are about 10 verses declaring the worthy of ones are taken in the rapture.

I could go deeper but you will trample the deeper things.
I am sure the virgin parable is risqué, as any allegory is trampled by you.