Rapture Thoughts of Some Early Church Leaders

[Spiritual Israelite]

Right, I agree, in the sense that not all Christians are particularly gifted in the same way(s).

So, can you acknowledge then that not all Christians have the spiritual gift of faith just as not all Christians have the spiritual gift of speaking in tongues or the spiritual gift of healing and so on?

I agree, SI, but not in the sense that other Christians "can't do" the same things that Christians who are particularly gifted in these areas, but rather in the sense that those who are not particularly gifted in those areas will not be nearly as effective in doing these things as those who are... and who will be much more effective in one or two of the other things because they are particularly gifted in those other areas.

Ugh. This is not at all what Paul taught. You are adding things to scripture that are not taught anywhere in scripture. You should not do that. Nowhere does it say that all Christians have all of the spiritual gifts at one level or another. Nowhere. Why are you trying to force something into scripture that isn't there? Do you actually think you have the gift of speaking in tongues but just aren't very effective at it? Why would the Holy Spirit give someone a gift that isn't effective? That makes no sense.

It's meant in the same manner as, hey, golf is not a gift of the Spirit, of course... <smile> ...but I can play golf, and I'm actually pretty good at it, but I'm not nearly as talented as Jordan Speith or Rory McIlroy or Nelly Korda or Jin Young Ko, who are all obviously very gifted golfers. <smile> I mean come on.

No, you come on. This means that you are saying, for example, that you have the gift of speaking in tongues and the gift of interpreting tongues (if you really do have these gifts and have used them, then let me know and I'll edit my post). So, tell me how well you can speak in tongues and how well you can interpret tongues. It must be that you can do so to some extent, so tell me to what extent you are able to exercise those spiritual gifts.

We talk all the time about some being very gifted academically, smarter than others, but that does not also mean that those others are not smart. But those who are academically gifted can use those gifts for the benefit of others. Surely you understand that. We can speak in the same manner about the things the Spirit enables us and/or gifts us particularly to do.

What I understand is that you are going away from what Paul actually wrote. Nowhere did he indicate that all Christians have all of the spiritual gifts. Can you acknowledge this? You can speculate and talk about what is possible all you want, but there is no scripture you can point to which backs up your belief that all Christians have all of the spiritual gifts of the Spirit.

See above. You just will not make the distinction... but maybe you will at some point, because there is one to be made... between a) being particularly gifted in something and b) being able to do things, having the ability to do things but not being gifted in those things.

I will make that distinction if you can show me any scripture which makes that distinction in relation to spiritual gifts.

And I have said many times now that I agree with this and other statements you have made like it, but in the sense that we are not all gifted in any of these areas, including faith, to the same degree. Some are particularly gifted in one or more of those areas, and this is Paul's context.

Tell me to what degree you have the gifts of healing, miracles, speaking in tongues and interpreting tongues.

Just regarding faith, SI... I mean, I've pointed this out many times, and you know it very well... Paul says in Ephesians 2:4-8, speaking of all Christians, "God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which He loved us... made us alive together with Christ⁠ ~ by grace (we) have been saved... by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God." I know you would agree that we all have this faith. It is true of the other Spirit-given gifts, but for all then it is a matter of degree, and whether or not we are particularly gifted ~ and thus have those gifts of the Spirit ~ or not. This is what Paul clearly indicated. <smile>

What Paul clearly indicated is that salvation is not by our own works. He did not say it's not through our faith. He differentiated between faith and works. He indicated that good works are what we do after becoming saved (Eph 2:10). But, faith, by God's grace, is what results in salvation. God graciously offers all people salvation (Titus 2:11). Our responsibility is to call upon the Lord and place our faith in Jesus as our Lord and to believe that He died and rose again (Romans 10:9-12). To humble ourselves and acknowledge that we can't save ourselves and that only Jesus can save us and that He is Lord does not make salvation of ourselves. Instead, it's us acknowledging that salvation is of Jesus Christ and His work, not any work that we can do. He did all the work by suffering and dying for our sins.

 

[The Light]

I prefer the non spin version.
Mat 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

You must be trying to spin that passage from Matthew into this Jewish rapture, (in zero "power and great glory"):
Rev 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
Mid "7 yr blah blah" gathering of the Jews.

Wake up. The coming of Jesus in Revelation 14 is the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24, and it is the Jews that are gathered from the earth.

Can we prove that by the Word of God. Sure. Those raptured sing the song of Moses. They are of the 12 tribes across the earth and there are 144,000 first fruits of this harvest.

Revelation 15
2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

Those that are raptured in Revelation 14 are the Jews, and they are the ones that get victory over the beast by the blood of the lamb. They are the ones that are raptured at the 6th seal and go through the great tribulation. The Church is already in heaven before the great tribulation.
Gods people are not appointed to wrath. That is why there is a rapture before the 7th seal is opened. That is why there is a great multitude, some of who come out of great tribulation at the marriage supper BEFORE the white horses event.

Maybe this will help:
We see Jesus come in power and great glory:
Rev 19
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

THAT...is "power and great glory."
(The post "7 yr blah blah" return in power.)

I'm not arguing about power and glory at the white horse's event. Even though it doesn't say Jesus comes in power and glory, I would have to believe that Jesus comes in power and glory any time He shows up with His angels.

One thing is for sure; we know that He shows up at the 6th seal in power and glory because the Word of God says He does.

Now you have changed your argument. Before you were arguing that Jesus does not come in power and glory at the 6th seal. Now you changed to the 6th seal is the 7 trumpet nonsense. Instead of putting things where the Word says they go, now you are trying to say that the 6th seal is the 7th trumpet.

....and that alone proves your timeline is off.
You also claim you are the only one that knows your interpretation.

Do you even know the PURPOSE OF THE "7 YR BLAH BLAH"?
THE PURPOSE OF THE RAPTURE?
THE PURPOSE OF THE GATHERING OF THE Jews ?
....OR WHY THE CHURCH IS IN HEAVEN DURING THE "7 YR BLAH BLAH"

Actual true end times doctrine is not a special understanding of one person.

In fact, that is a sure way to error by not being in alignment to the body of Christ.

Until you understand that Jesus comes immediately after the great tribulation for a harvest and sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth at the 6th seal, you will not understand end time.

If you think that the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 occurs at the 7th trumpet on white horses, you will not understand.

Why not try a timeline that has the great tribulation over at the 6th seal and the 7th seal containing the wrath of God........just like it says.

The great tribulation is not the wrath of God. Period.

 

[The Light]

The AC
Not , "a AC"
I dont need him to be "horus"

There is more than one Antichrist. There are the beast of the earth and the beast of the sea. These are the 7th and 8th kings.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

It's amazing that anyone would believe that Jesus will descend from heaven more than once in the future. Scripture never teaches such a thing. It's an utterly ridiculous thing to believe.

Acts 1:9 Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, 11 who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.”

Scripture teaches that Jesus will come from heaven once in the future and He will come in the same manner as He ascended to heaven, which was physically and visibly. The idea that He would also come from heaven some other time than what is described in Acts 1:11 is just plain stupid. That's as nicely as I can put it.

 

[Taken]

This is not correct. There was not 7 days allotted for Noah to load the animals. The animals were loaded in one day as the Word of God declares.

Seven Days before rains..

Thinking, Suspect… getting Animals “settled” is what I said… “not loading animals”.

 

[WPM]

It's amazing that anyone would believe that Jesus will descend from heaven more than once in the future. Scripture never teaches such a thing. It's an utterly ridiculous thing to believe.

Acts 1:9 Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, 11 who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.”

Scripture teaches that Jesus will come from heaven once in the future and He will come in the same manner as He ascended to heaven, which was physically and visibly. The idea that He would also come from heaven some other time than what is described in Acts 1:11 is just plain stupid. That's as nicely as I can put it.

He does not want to know. He is indoctrinated with the lie of Pretrib.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

He does not want to know. He is indoctrinated with the lie of Pretrib.

Agree, but I wasn't just talking about one person. All pre-tribs or mid-tribs or anyone else who thinks that Jesus will descend from heaven more than once in the future are just making that up. Nowhere does scripture teach that. Not even close. It's all from their wild imaginations.

 

[Trekson]

Okay, cool. But it is what it is. <smile>

I did not say faith ~ salvific faith ~ was given to all, but only to those of us who have been saved. This faith, Trekson, by definition, as I said, is given by God. We have the very definition of faith, in Hebrews 11:1... "faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen." We do not assure or convict ourselves of these things. We cannot, as self-assurance is really no assurance at all; it has to come to us from outside ourselves, has to be given by someone other than ourselves. And again, as Paul says in Ephesians 2:4-9, "God... made us alive together with Christ⁠ ~ by grace you have been saved... by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast." I know this is not your intent, but

Well, we Christians are not all gifted by the Spirit in the area of faith. But that's not to say that there are any Christians who don't have this salvific faith; that would be a contradiction of what Paul says in Ephesians 2. But yes, in Paul'sl context here in 1 Corinthians 12, the Christians who are especially gifted in faith, which like the other gifts is "empowered by the Spirit and apportioned to each..." (who is particularly gifted in this way) "...individually as He wills," can help other Christians in their faith, not in the sense of strengthening or giving them more faith, as only the Spirit can do that, but in the sense that the particular spiritual giftings that we have, whether wisdom, knowledge, faith, etc., are "for the common good," as Paul says there.


Even according to the definition of faith, again, given to us in Hebrews 11:1, "faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen," this cannot be true. I think you don't mean to do this, but in this statement, you make faith in God out to be a work of man and somehow meriting God's favor, which in effect makes God's grace (unmerited favor) into something other than grace, which is what Paul is saying in Romans 11:5-6, "at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace"... and a contradiction of what he has just said in Romans 9:16 about being on of God's elect, that "it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy", and what he says in Ephesians 2:8, "by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works..." John also says we Christians "were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God" (John 1:13).


Yes, I agree with this, actually... faith comes by hearing, as Paul says in Romans 10. But that word 'comes' is a key word there... <chuckles> As Jesus tells Nicodemus in John 3, "unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God... unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God... Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit."


Any secular faith... or faith of secular people... is a dead faith, which is to say not given by God and not effectual unto salvation, as James speaks of it in the James 2. Our good works are the result of and the natural outworking of the faith we have been given; if there are no good works, then any faith the person may have is a dead faith.


That's hopeful thinking, Trekson, and this salvific faith that we have is not that. <smile> It is a surety, the assurance of God of our salvation, which only He can give.


Disagree. Their actions were done in the faith they had been given, and outward evidence of it. And remember, all that is needed is faith as a mustard seed.


Ohhhhh, "dispensation..." <chuckles> That word/concept is so... troublesome... No, how people were required to live out their faith was different for the Israelites of old was different ~ because Jesus had not come yet ~ but the Gospel (good news) of grace, first proclaimed in Genesis 3:15, as been the same in substance ever since then. Again, fir Again, God has dealt with people in the same way since the events of Genesis 3, by grace. As I said, if it weren't for God's grace ~ if God actually gave us what we deserve ~ none of us would be here... <smile>

Grace and peace to you, Trekson.

None of Paul's teaching about grace were taught in the OT because it is a post crucifixion reality. Your quote: "how people were required to live out their faith was different for the Israelites of old was different ~ because Jesus had not come yet" is the very definition of what dispensationalism actually is, different ways God has dealt w/ humanity throughout scripture. It is Not a false pre-trib eschatology that many folks errantly try to claim that it is. It was Paul that first used the word for times in his teachings, not something created by Darby, he can be credited w/ the pretrib belief but that has nothing to do w/ dispensationalism.

 

[PinSeeker]

So, can you acknowledge then that not all Christians have the spiritual gift of faith just as not all Christians have the spiritual gift of speaking in tongues or the spiritual gift of healing and so on?

All Christians have faith, which is a gift of the Spirit, the gift of God. Faith is not, though, necessarily the particular gifting they have from the Spirit. Frankly, I'm not sure if that's just hard for you to understand or if you're just trying to, oh, make me contradict myself or something.

You are adding things to scripture that are not taught anywhere in scripture.

In your opinion. Okay, cool; got it. <smile>

This means that you are saying, for example, that you have the gift of speaking in tongues and the gift of interpreting tongues...

It means, SI, that speaking and/or interpreting tongues may or may not be my dominant gift of the Spirit. And it's not. I am not particularly gifted in that area; my particular gifting is regarding two or three different things other than that one. But that does not also mean that I can't do it at all; because I have the Spirit, I can do it, just not as well as other Christians, and as such it is not my dominant spiritual gift ~ just as, SI, what I am particularly gifted by the Spirit to do other Christians may not be able to do as well as I. Paul is saying in 1 Corinthians 12 ~ and also in Romans 12 ~ of particular giftings of the Spirit to particular Christians, and not whether or not any or all Christians merely have some ability to speak in or interpret tongues. The latter is not in view.

As I have said before, this is not a hill to die on for either of us. Grace and peace to you.


necessarily.

What Paul clearly indicated is that salvation is not by our own works. He did not say it's not through our faith.

We are saved, SI ~ born again by God's Holy Spirit ~ by grace through faith, and this is not our own doing, but the gift of God. And in this way, we are created ~ re-created, really ~ for these good works, that we might walk in them. This is exactly what Paul says in Ephesians 2.

He differentiated between faith and works. He indicated that good works are what we do after becoming saved...

Which I've said many times, including just above.

But, faith, by God's grace, is what results in salvation.

This is absolutely incorrect. I'm not sure if this is what you are insinuating or not, but I'm going to say it here yet again: we do not... cannot... manufacture our own faith or give faith to ourselves. To think that... again, if you do... is to turn the very definition of faith in Hebrews 11:1 ~ the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen ~ on its ear. We cannot give ourselves this assurance or conviction; to think we can is necessarily to think we can grant or confer salvation upon ourselves, which of course we cannot do. Who then can be saved? With man this is impossible, but what is impossible with man is possible with God (Luke 18:26-27).

God graciously offers all people salvation (Titus 2:11).

Ah yeah, here we go yet again... <chuckles> I'm sure this has been going back and forth and through and around your mind since our last... "conversation" <smile> ...weeks ago.

Our responsibility is to call upon the Lord and place our faith in Jesus...

No, our responsibility is that once we have received this faith ~ by grace, of course ~ it to go out and walk according to what God has created us for and called us to do (Ephesians 2:10), to walk according to and in step with the Spirit and bearing the fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23). These are our good works, to love God and love others in various ways. It's not merely a responsibility, really, but a labor of love, and a joy. But yes, we are required to do these things. The curious thing is that, even though I have said this many, many times, you have accused me many times before of denying it., which... is just a very curious thing... <smile>

...humble ourselves and acknowledge that we can't save ourselves and that only Jesus can save us and that He is Lord does not make salvation of ourselves. Instead, it's us acknowledging that salvation is of Jesus Christ and His work, not any work that we can do. He did all the work by suffering and dying for our sins...

I'm glad to know you know this. Not that I didn't before now, but ~ and I'm not trying to be disparaging in any way ~ by saying some of the things you keep saying, like "faith, by God's grace, is what results in salvation" and "Our responsibility is to call upon the Lord and place our faith in Jesus," you're really inadvertently contradicting this very statement of yours here. In the same breath, no less, which is quite astounding. You don't think so. Well, okay. You don't mean to, I'm sure of that. But the implication, or the effect, is really unavoidable; effectively, that's exactly what you're doing. Again, absolutely no offense intended.


Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

None of Paul's teaching about grace were taught in the OT because it is a post crucifixion reality.

In your opinion. Yeah, got it, loud and clear. And I'm perfectly fine with you saying the same thing right back to me. As far as I know though, Moses's teachings about grace were taught in the OT.... and the prophets... <chuckles> Jesus said so... <chuckles>

Your quote: "how people were required to live out their faith was different for the Israelites of old was different ~ because Jesus had not come yet" is the very definition of what dispensationalism actually is, different ways God has dealt w/ humanity throughout scripture.

No, because it's not about how God has dealt with humanity, per se. Faith was the thing then, too, but Jesus had not yet come, so the law was their tudor, as Paul says in Galatians 3. We do not need this tudor anymore, because we have seen the Real Thing, Jesus. Again, the only real difference is that they were looking forward in faith to Jesus and His death and resurrection, and we are looking back on Jesus and His death and resurrection.

It is Not a false pre-trib eschatology that many folks errantly try to claim that it is

I absolutely agree with you about pre-tribulation... stuff... and dispensationalism, and pre- and post-millennialism (although I'm not sure where you are on that but that's not part of this conversation) and all the... stuff... that goes with it. <smile>

Grace and peace to you.

 

[WPM]

None of Paul's teaching about grace were taught in the OT because it is a post crucifixion reality. Your quote: "how people were required to live out their faith was different for the Israelites of old was different ~ because Jesus had not come yet" is the very definition of what dispensationalism actually is, different ways God has dealt w/ humanity throughout scripture. It is Not a false pre-trib eschatology that many folks errantly try to claim that it is. It was Paul that first used the word for times in his teachings, not something created by Darby, he can be credited w/ the pretrib belief but that has nothing to do w/ dispensationalism.

Grace?

Nonsense.

The elect have always experienced salvation by way of God's grace (it is therefore unmerited). Gen 6:8 states: "Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD."

No wonder you avoid the biblical rebuttals. You are espousing a false gospel.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

All Christians have faith, which is a gift of the Spirit, the gift of God. Faith is not, though, necessarily the particular gifting they have from the Spirit. Frankly, I'm not sure if that's just hard for you to understand or if you're just trying to, oh, make me contradict myself or something.

What don't you understand about Paul saying that not all Christians have all of the gifts of the Spirit? I'm not trying to make you do anything. You're making yourself look bad here with the way you are interpreting 1 Corinthians 12:9.

1 Corinthians 12:28 And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret?

What are your answers to the questions Paul asked in this passage? Yes to all of them?

Here's a challenge for you. Find any commentary on 1 Corinthians 12:9 that agrees with your interpretation of the verse. I highly doubt that you can even find any Calvinist who agrees with your interpretation of that verse.

It means, SI, that speaking and/or interpreting tongues may or may not be my dominant gift of the Spirit. And it's not. I am not particularly gifted in that area;

So, you are claiming to have the gifts of speaking in tongues and interpreting tongues, but they're just not two of your best gifts?

my particular gifting is regarding two or three different things other than that one.

Your particular gifting? Where does scripture ever speak of having particular gifts of the Holy Spirit in contrast to non-particular gifts of the Holy Spirit?

But that does not also mean that I can't do it at all; because I have the Spirit, I can do it, just not as well as other Christians, and as such it is not my dominant spiritual gift ~ just as, SI, what I am particularly gifted by the Spirit to do other Christians may not be able to do as well as I.

This is truly unbelievable. Paul very clearly indicated that not all Christians have all of the gifts of the Spirit and here you are denying that. Unreal.

Paul is saying in 1 Corinthians 12 ~ and also in Romans 12 ~ of particular giftings of the Spirit to particular Christians, and not whether or not any or all Christians merely have some ability to speak in or interpret tongues. The latter is not in view.

Show me where he mentions "particular" gifts of the Spirit or even hints at such a thing.

As I have said before, this is not a hill to die on for either of us. Grace and peace to you.

Maybe not, but it can't be ignored how dishonestly you are dealing with 1 Corinthians 12:9. How do you think your interpretations of any verse or passage should be taken seriously when you butcher verses like 1 Corinthians 12:9 so badly?

We are saved, SI ~ born again by God's Holy Spirit ~ by grace through faith, and this is not our own doing, but the gift of God. And in this way, we are created ~ re-created, really ~ for these good works, that we might walk in them. This is exactly what Paul says in Ephesians 2.

Read the text again. Try to take your Calvinist lenses off so that you can read it objectively.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

When Paul says salvation is "not of yourselves", he's not saying that it's not of God's grace through our faith, he's saying that it's "not of works" that we could boast about. Faith isn't something we can boast about. It's the opposite of boasting. Faith involves humbling yourself and submitting yourself to Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior while trusting in Him rather than yourself or anyone else for salvation. Does that seem like something that someone can boast about? Of course not. But, if someone thinks they can earn their salvation by works? They could boast about that if that was possible. But salvation is not of works, not of ourselves, or else we could boast about saving ourselves.

This is absolutely incorrect. I'm not sure if this is what you are insinuating or not, but I'm going to say it here yet again: we do not... cannot... manufacture our own faith or give faith to ourselves.

I already addressed this in post 419. You are absolutely wrong about this. You have no viable explanation for the passages I referenced in that post which show that God holds each person responsible for putting his or her own faith in Jesus Christ for salvation. If God gives people faith then that makes a mockery out of Paul and Silas telling the jailer that he had to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ to be saved without first telling him that he had to wait and see if he was one of the lucky ones who God gives faith to in order to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. It also makes a mockery of Jesus Himself for telling people that what they had to do that God requires in order to labor "for the food which endures to everlasting life" was to "believe in Him whom He sent." (John 6:27-29). According to your doctrine He should have said told them that there is nothing they can do to obtain eternal life except wait to see if they were lucky enough to be one of God's chosen ones that He gives faith to unto salvation and eternal life. If God gives people saving faith then it also makes a mockery of Jesus for marveling at the faith of the centurion whose servant Jesus healed. As if Jesus, who is God, would ever marvel at anyone's faith if He gave it to them? As if He forgot how much faith He gave the centurion?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

To think that... again, if you do... is to turn the very definition of faith in Hebrews 11:1 ~ the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen ~ on its ear.

We've already been over the fact that you don't understand what Hebrews 11:1 means multiple times. Did you forget?

We cannot give ourselves this assurance or conviction; to think we can is necessarily to think we can grant or confer salvation upon ourselves, which of course we cannot do. Who then can be saved? With man this is impossible, but what is impossible with man is possible with God (Luke 18:26-27).

You have no understanding of Hebrews 11:1 whatsoever. Look at it in context. You seem to always forget to look for context in scripture.

It looks like you are using the ESV translation here. Other translations word it differently, but I can make my point using that translation.

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. 2 For by it the people of old received their commendation. 3 By faith we understand that the universe was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things that are visible. 4 By faith Abel offered to God a more acceptable sacrifice than Cain, through which he was commended as righteous, God commending him by accepting his gifts. And through his faith, though he died, he still speaks.

If you really want to understand what faith is and who is responsible for generating it, then you need to look at the verses which follow Hebrews 11:1 instead of interpreting the verse in isolation from the rest of the verses and the rest of scripture. Notice in verse 2 that "the people of old" were commended for their faith. Why would that be if faith was given to them? There would be nothing for them to be commended about if the faith didn't come from them and was given to them. Then notice verse 4. Abel was commended for his faith because by faith he made a more acceptable sacrifice to God than Cain did. Again, why would Abel be commended for his faith if it didn't come from himself but was rather given to him by God? There would be nothing for anyone to be commended for in relation to faith if it comes from God. Only God would be commended for faith in that case.

Ah yeah, here we go yet again... <chuckles> I'm sure this has been going back and forth and through and around your mind since our last... "conversation" <smile> ...weeks ago.

You always flatter yourself. Your arrogance is off the charts. As if I have nothing better to do than think about our conversation from weeks ago? Get over yourself already. I think I've told you that multiple times and you still never seem to get over yourself.

No, our responsibility is that once we have received this faith ~ by grace, of course ~ it to go out and walk according to what God has created us for and called us to do (Ephesians 2:10), to walk according to and in step with the Spirit and bearing the fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23). These are our good works, to love God and love others in various ways. It's not merely a responsibility, really, but a labor of love, and a joy. But yes, we are required to do these things. The curious thing is that, even though I have said this many, many times, you have accused me many times before of denying it., which... is just a very curious thing... <smile>

Of denying what exactly? What I say that you deny is that we are required to choose to have faith in Christ and that saving faith is not given to us. You still deny that. I never said you denied the other things you said here.

I'm glad to know you know this. Not that I didn't before now, but ~ and I'm not trying to be disparaging in any way ~ by saying some of the things you keep saying, like "faith, by God's grace, is what results in salvation" and "Our responsibility is to call upon the Lord and place our faith in Jesus," you're really inadvertently contradicting this very statement of yours here.

No, I did not contradict what I said at all. You just don't understand it from your biased, Calvinist perspective. I guarantee that you can't even explain why I supposedly contradicted my previous statement. That's why you didn't even attempt to do so.

But the implication, or the effect, is really unavoidable; effectively, that's exactly what you're doing. Again, absolutely no offense intended.

If that's the case, then please explain why you think that instead of just making that claim with no explanation as to why you're making it.

 

[The Light]

Seven Days before rains..

Thinking, Suspect… getting Animals “settled” is what I said… “not loading animals”.

This is also not correct. Noah is not in the ark with the animals 7 days before the rain.

 

[WPM]

Agree, but I wasn't just talking about one person. All pre-tribs or mid-tribs or anyone else who thinks that Jesus will descend from heaven more than once in the future are just making that up. Nowhere does scripture teach that. Not even close. It's all from their wild imaginations.

I see the Pretribs cannot answer one single Posttrib question or rebut one argument. They are definitely on the ropes. Pretrib is dead in the water. I predicted their downfall over a year ago.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I see the Pretribs cannot answer one single Posttrib question or rebut one argument.

Nothing new there. They rarely even try to do so. Probably because they know when they do try to do so, they just end up embarrassing themselves with a bunch of incoherent gibberish.

They are definitely on the ropes. Pretrib is dead in the water. I predicted their downfall over a year ago.

Yeah, it's been dead since a year ago when there were multiple threads that thoroughly refuted pretrib. The only way anyone who read our arguments against pretrib can remain a pretrib is because that's just what they want to believe no matter how much evidence is against it. And there's a huge mountain of scriptural evidence against it, as you know.

 

[ewq1938]

The passage is dealing with Gods intervention in sodom , not the world.

The world was unaffected because only certain local cities were destroyed.

Yes all. everything that had the breath of life perished, unless on the ark. 8 people

Only locally, just as is found in the story of Lot.

LOL
God commands all people everywhere to repent before Jesus returns at the second coming to judge eternally....act 17

The unsaved are not judged at the second coming. That happens over a thousand years after.

 

[Taken]

This is also not correct. Noah is not in the ark with the animals 7 days before the rain.

According to Scripture, YOU are in ERROR.
And because of YOUR ERROR, YOU made a false allegation Against what another member said.


Gen.7

[1] And the LORD said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation.
[2] Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.
[3] Of fowls also of the air by sevens, the male and the female; to keep seed alive upon the face of all the earth.
[4] For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth.
[5] And Noah did according unto all that the LORD commanded him.
[6] And Noah was six hundred years old when the flood of waters was upon the earth.
[7] And Noah went in, and his sons, and his wife, and his sons' wives with him, into the ark, because of the waters of the flood.
[8] Of clean beasts, and of beasts that are not clean, and of fowls, and of every thing that creepeth upon the earth,
[9] There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah.
[10] And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

All pre-tribs or mid-tribs or anyone else who thinks that Jesus will descend from heaven more than once in the future are just making that up. Nowhere does scripture teach that. Not even close. It's all from their wild imaginations.

I see the Pretribs cannot answer one single Posttrib question or rebut one argument. They are definitely on the ropes. Pretrib is dead in the water. I predicted their downfall over a year ago.

The Problem with men such as yourselves…
Is “gaslighting”, then disagreeing with your “own” claims.

There ARE multiple threads for reference on this topic…

Where are the multiple Claims Quoted of multiple Returns?

Where are the multiple Claimed unanswered questions Quoted?

And are you able / willing to Answer Questions?

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[The Light]

According to Scripture, YOU are in ERROR.

You are either reading a different book than I am, or you are not understanding what you are reading. The first thing the Lord told Noah was to come and enter the ark.

Genesis 7
1 And the Lord said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation.

2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.

3 Of fowls also of the air by sevens, the male and the female; to keep seed alive upon the face of all the earth.

4 For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth.

5 And Noah did according unto all that the Lord commanded him.

The Word says that Noah, his family and all of the animals entered the ark on the same day. That day was the day the Lord told him to enter the ark.

Genesis 7
13 In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark;

14 They, and every beast after his kind, and all the cattle after their kind, and every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind, and every fowl after his kind, every bird of every sort.

And because of YOUR ERROR, YOU made a false allegation Against what another member said.

I am not the one in error, so I am not the one making a false allegation.