JUSTIFICATION: Before God or Before Man? Examining James chapter 2

[amigo de christo]

If you are making a distinction between justification before God and before man, then that leaves room for someone to be justified before man while not being justified before God, however, I don’t see the value of this or of man seeing someone as being justified who is not justified before God or of James making this distinction.

and let us always remember these words FROM THE VERY CHRIST OF GOD .......
YE are those who justify yourselves BEFORE MEN .
And believe you me , THOSE hearts of theirs WERE FAR FROM GOD .
For what was good to them was abomination to GOD .
Many try and justify the false religoins of anti christ and of the religoin of all anti christs
which now has come to merge ALL religoins .
Acting as if , cliaming as IF , them JESUS CHRIST DENYING religons serve the same GOD WE DO .
Sorry soyeong , BUT while its true they all might serve the same god , IT DARN SURE AINT THE GOD I DO .
CAUSE had they served the same GOD i do , THEY have WELL BOWED THE KNEE TO JESUS CHRIST
and not to one of satans MANY religions , nor to his inclusive religoin by which he shall merge ALL OF THE DECIEVED .
SHEEP dont heed such a voice . I su ggest any one who is in any way connected
to anything or to anyone who in anyway supports ecumeincal co exist interfaith , TO GET THE HECK OUT
of such places and far from such faces . THEY ALL GOING DOWN ON JESUS DAY , UNDER SEVERE WRATH
upon them all . ITS JESUS PReaching TIME . TIME to teach all to observe ALL THINGS HE t aught .

 

[Soyeong]

1st. You will never become rightous.. Righteousness ny defenition is perfection..

We can't earn our righteousness even as the result of having perfect obedience to the Law of God because it was never given as a way of doing that in the first place. In Romans 3:21-22, it does not say that the Law and the Prophets testify that the righteousness of God comes as the result of perfect obedience, but rather the only way to become righteous that is testified about in the Law and the Prophets is through faith in Christ for all who believe.

2nd. Abraham was saved in Gen when he believed God. and God credited it to him as righteous. This was decaded before issac was even born. and even longer before Abraham offered his son.

Abraham was also justified in Genesis 12:1-5 before Genesis 15:6 when he obeyed the call to go to the place where he would receive his inheritance (Hebrews 11:8) and James 2:21-24 states that he was justified when he offered Isaac.

Hebrews 11 isd a faith hall of fame. God holds up people who should great deads of faith.. These people did not do these deeds to get saved. they did them because God saved them

If your trying to earn your enterance into heaven. You will faill.. Jesus said onlyy through him can you enter. Not through him and yourself..

They did not do those deeds either in order become saved or because God has saved them, but because God is saving them. Obedience to the Law of God has absolutely to do with trying to earn our entrance into the Kingdom of Heaven but rather the reason why our entrance into the Kingdom of Heaven requires us to choose to be workers of lawfulness is because that is the way to know Jesus (Matthew 7:21-23). It is contradictory to take the position that the way to enter into the Kingdom of Heave is only through God's Word made flesh but not through following his example of embodying God's Word. God graciously teaching us to embody His law is something that God is doing as part of His gift of salvation.

 

[Justified]

The word used for "justification" in the NT, dikaioo, has different meanings:

Thayer Definition:
1) to render righteous or such he ought to be
2) to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3) to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

In James 2:14-26, James uses it in the second sense--works are the evidence that a person saved. Paul, in Rom. 4 (and almost always), uses it in the first and third sense--being declared righteous.

That is why both can use the very same passage about Abraham and appear to come to opposing conclusions. Paul is saying that Abraham was declared righteous by his obedience to God and James is saying that his obedience in being willing to offer up Isaac was evidence of his already having been declared righteous by God.

 

[KUWN]

The word used for "justification" in the NT, dikaioo, has different meanings:

Thayer Definition:
1) to render righteous or such he ought to be
2) to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3) to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

In James 2:14-26, James uses it in the second sense--works are the evidence that a person IS?? saved. Paul, in Rom. 4 (and almost always), uses it in the first and third sense--being declared righteous.

Bear in mind that there are two different meanings for justification (or vindication). In James, one justification/vindication is before God and one justification/vindication is before man. Works do not prove salvation, otherwise the Pharisees were modal believers. NOT BY WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS. NOT OF WORKS LEST SOMEONE BOAST BEFORE GOD...

That is why both can use the very same passage about Abraham and appear to come to opposing conclusions. Paul is saying that Abraham was declared righteous by his obedience to God and James is saying that his obedience in being willing to offer up Isaac was evidence of his already having been declared righteous by God.

Abraham vindicated (not proved he was saved) himself by offering up Isaac. He was declared righteous by his faith.

 

[Justified]

Bear in mind that there are two different meanings for justification (or vindication). In James, one justification/vindication is before God and one justification/vindication is before man.

Those would be uses of justification, but you have to prove that James such a distinction. I provided three definitions from Thayer's Greek Definitions.

Works do not prove salvation, otherwise the Pharisees were modal believers.

Of course, but good works are evidence of having been declared righteous nonetheless, according to Paul and James.

NOT BY WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS. NOT OF WORKS LEST SOMEONE BOAST BEFORE GOD...

That is speaking of salvation by works, not works that are evidence of salvation.

Abraham vindicated (not proved he was saved) himself by offering up Isaac.

What, exactly, do you mean by "vindicated" and in what way was he "vindicated"? It seems to me that your use of vindicated here is one and the same as "proved he was saved."

 

[amigo de christo]

Bear in mind that there are two different meanings for justification (or vindication). In James, one justification/vindication is before God and one justification/vindication is before man. Works do not prove salvation, otherwise the Pharisees were modal believers. NOT BY WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS. NOT OF WORKS LEST SOMEONE BOAST BEFORE GOD...


Abraham vindicated (not proved he was saved) himself by offering up Isaac. He was declared righteous by his faith.

Mr kuwn . Even the very works of the pharisees were seen and known BY GOD to be dead .
YE are they who just ify yourselves before men .
Plus they often taught precepts of men .
Their works they did were to be SEEN by men , to appear righteous unto men . BUT GOD knows
the heart of every man woman and child .
Not only what we do but why we do . You are correct though about it not being b y works of righteousness
that one can be truly justified before GOD .
ONLY ONE WAY . The just shall walk by faith .
And if ones faith BE NOT IN JESUS THE CHRIST , THERE FAITH BE NOT IN GOD .
Only ONE way to be justifed , made the righteousness of GOD , saved . HIS NAME BE JESUS THE CHRIST
and its absolutely dire that one BELIEVES on HIM .
Now for part two .
IF the jesus anyone cometh to honors and supports their sins , THIS IS the very jesus they have their faith in
One that has g iven them their sinful hearts lustful desires with a promise of salvation .
NOW by very denfintion , THAT jesus AINT JESUS . Its another jesus . And b eleive me , that jesus cannot
save you , me or any man . Its simply a lip only heart far from GOD delusion .
THE TRUE GOD changes the heart .
Many in even false religoins can give much to the poor , IT will profit them nothing and only damantion
awaits them all . For WHEN HE CALLED them b y the gospel THEY REJECTED .
Yes mr kuwn we are being lied to by interfaith interreligous anti christ dialouge for peace .
Its peace is not of GOD . FOR by its means to attain PEACE in this world , IT HAS DENIED THE ONLY ONE
b y whom WE MUST BELIEVE IN , for to attain peace with GOD .
The peace of GOD , IS THE GOSPEL of GOD . FOR unto all who do BELEIVE IN JESUS they have PEACE with GOD .
But woe unto all who joined hand in hand with this anti christ peace of this ecuemneical whore of all harlots .

 

[Titus]

When one is saved by God one is then justified by God,
Romans 5:8-9,
- but God commendeth His love toward us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us Much more then being now justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him

James is teaching on justification from God, therefore James chapter 2 is about what kind of faith saves.
James is not teaching, being already saved and our works justifies us before men.

Key verse,

James 2:14,
- what doth it profit my brethren though a man say he hath faith and have no works, can faith alone save him

James is teaching on what true saving faith is.
Not the modern day reinterpretation, that faith alone justifies then our works after we are saved justifies us before men.

Notice the examples James chooses to use for his answer to his question in James 2:14.

All examples given:
Demons faith,

Does the faith of demons save ? No
Their faith has no obedient works therefore not true Biblical saving faith.
Demons believing teaches nothing on justification before men.
The example of the demons faith does teach that belief alone is worthlesss.

Next example is Abraham.
James teaches that Abraham's faith has works.
James uses the story of Abraham sacrificing His son.
Abraham in his obedience to God by sacrificing his son, was justified before God.
Abraham sacrificing his son had nothing to do with proving his faith was genuine faith before men.
James' lesson about Abraham is his faith obeyed God therefore His faith worked the commandments of God. His faith that obeyed God justified him before God.

Next example is Rahab the harlot.
James 2:25,
- likewise also was Rahab the harlot not justified by works when she had received the messengers and had sent them out another way

James lesson to learn from Rahab is her faith obeyed God, therefore it was not alone.
She also worked/obeyed Gods commandments.
Rahab would have been killed by Gods people if she had not had faith in the true living God and helped hide His spies.
Hebrews 11:31,
- by faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not when she had received the spies with peace

James teaches Rahab's faith justified her because of her good deeds(works).
Her faith justified her before God not man.
Remember James is asking a salvation question about faith not about those already saved needing justification before men.

All these examples were chosen by James to teach obedient faith is what saves.
Not once did James teach faith alone justified/saved.
All James taught on faith with no obedience/alone is this...
Profits nothing, James 2:16
Is dead being alone, James 2:17; 20;26
Faith without works is not perfect, James 2:22 meaning fulfilled, brought to its intended end.

So what is the answer to James' question?
Answer is found in James 2:24,
- ye see then how by works a man(Abraham) is justified and not by faith alone

- for as the body without the spirit is dead so faith without works is dead also

 

[Titus]

Why would James teach about saving faith to his audience when they were already saved?
Throughout his letter James repeatedly warns them about deception, dead faith, judgment and failing to endure to the end.
James was not a believer in once saved always saved.

Listen to what James warns before chapter 2.
James 1:22,
- be ye  doers of the word and not hearers only deceiving yourselves

Also just because they are saved doesn't mean the already know it all.
I'm still learning how about you?

 

[Justified]

When one is saved by God one is then justified by God,
Romans 5:8-9,
- but God commendeth His love toward us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us Much more then being now justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him

James is teaching on justification from God, therefore James chapter 2 is about what kind of faith saves.
James is not teaching, being already saved and our works justifies us before men.

Key verse,

James 2:14,
- what doth it profit my brethren though a man say he hath faith and have no works, can faith alone save him

James is teaching on what true saving faith is.

That he is and he teaches that a true saving faith is evidenced by good works.

Not the modern day reinterpretation, that faith alone justifies then our works after we are saved justifies us before men.

By modern day reinterpretation you must then mean Paul's teaching on the matter:

Rom 3:28 For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.
Rom 3:29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also,
Rom 3:30 since God is one—who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. (ESV)

Eph 2:4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us,
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—
Eph 2:6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. (ESV)

Tit 3:4 But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared,
Tit 3:5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,
Tit 3:6 whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
Tit 3:7 so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
Tit 3:8 The saying is trustworthy, and I want you to insist on these things, so that those who have believed in God may be careful to devote themselves to good works. These things are excellent and profitable for people. (ESV)

It seems that Paul is quite clear: we are justified (declared righteous) by grace, through faith, as a gift of God, for the purpose of "good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."

Notice the examples James chooses to use for his answer to his question in James 2:14.

All examples given:
Demons faith,

Does the faith of demons save ? No
Their faith has no obedient works therefore not true Biblical saving faith.
Demons believing teaches nothing on justification before men.
The example of the demons faith does teach that belief alone is worthlesss.

No quite correct.

Jas 2:19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder!

James is saying that the demons believe in the existence of the one true God; but they do not have any sort of faith in God. This is speaking of mere mental assent, of believing something to be true, but that is quite apart from placing one's trust and faith in God.

Next example is Abraham.
James teaches that Abraham's faith has works.
James uses the story of Abraham sacrificing His son.
Abraham in his obedience to God by sacrificing his son, was justified before God.
Abraham sacrificing his son had nothing to do with proving his faith was genuine faith before men.
James' lesson about Abraham is his faith obeyed God therefore His faith worked the commandments of God. His faith that obeyed God justified him before God.

What do you mean by "was justified before God" and "justified him before God"?

All these examples were chosen by James to teach obedient faith is what saves.
Not once did James teach faith alone justified/saved.
All James taught on faith with no obedience/alone is this...
Profits nothing, James 2:16
Is dead being alone, James 2:17; 20;26
Faith without works is not perfect, James 2:22 meaning fulfilled, brought to its intended end.

So what is the answer to James' question?
Answer is found in James 2:24,
- ye see then how by works a man(Abraham) is justified and not by faith alone

- for as the body without the spirit is dead so faith without works is dead also

James can only be teaching that by faith alone is one justified and works are evidence of such, or else he is in direct contradiction to Paul in Romans 4, Eph. 2:4-10, and elsewhere.

The context is first speaking of how believers treat other believers, which leads to this:

Jas 2:14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?
Jas 2:15 If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food,
Jas 2:16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that?
Jas 2:17 So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
Jas 2:18 But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. (ESV)

James is clearly making the point that no works is evidence of a dead faith, hence its opposite--works are evidence of a true faith. These works include how believers who are wealthy and powerful treat those believers who are not.

Why would James teach about saving faith to his audience when they were already saved?
Throughout his letter James repeatedly warns them about deception, dead faith, judgment and failing to endure to the end.

Because, believers continually need to be reminded to examine themselves to see if they are of the faith:

2Co 13:5 Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you fail to meet the test! (ESV)

If a person thinks they are saved, but does not have good works, which can easily be seen in how they treat believers who are poor, then they need to take a serious look at what they claim to believe.

James was not a believer in once saved always saved.

That is going beyond anything James says. We would do well to stick to Scripture and not make assumptions about what the writers of the Bible did or did not believe.

Also just because they are saved doesn't mean the already know it all.
I'm still learning how about you?

Always.

 

[Titus]

Do you know how many verses you are asking him to give you? That has always been my pet peeve out here, we should all be familiar with the Scriptures so that we don't have to give ALL THE PASSAGES. If you don't know where all (or even one) the passages are, simply use a concordance, or google it.

Hello KUWN
I've already given the answer, Matthew 28:18-20.
The answer is in verse 20.

 

[Titus]

Hello, Justified

Geniune faith has works always
Faith is not true genuine faith if it does not obey God.
Please read my posts carefully before disagreeing.
I never said the demons had real faith.

 

[Justified]

Hello, Justified

Geniune faith has works always
Faith is not true genuine faith if it does not obey God.

Exactly. That is why a claim such as "All these examples were chosen by James to teach obedient faith is what saves," is problematic. Obedient faith cannot save; that is works salvation.

Genuine faith is evidenced by good works; a lack of good works is evidence of a dead faith. That is James's warning to those who claim to be of the faith. Those who claim to be believers must take stock of their lives to see if they really are of the faith or not.

Please read my posts carefully before disagreeing.

I never said the demons had real faith.

I never said that you said they had real faith. I was addressing the fact that you used the word "faith" in the context of saving faith: "Their faith has no obedient works therefore not true Biblical saving faith."

My point is that to use the word "faith" in regards to demons is incorrect, because it is mere mental assent they have, not faith. So, I too, recommend that you please read my posts carefully before disagreeing.

 

[mailmandan]

Genuine faith is evidenced by good works; a lack of good works is evidence of a dead faith. That is James's warning to those who claim to be of the faith. Those who claim to be believers must take stock of their lives to see if they really are of the faith or not.

Exactly! Man is saved through faith and not by works (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9); yet genuine faith is (evidenced) by works. (James 2:14-24)

*Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works.* (Romans 3:24-28; 2 Timothy 1:9)

It is through faith "in Jesus Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 4:5-6;  Philippians 3:9); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-24) *Perfect Harmony*

In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. *So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine.

Now in James 2:19, we see that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God," but they do not believe in/have faith in/trust in Jesus Christ for salvation. In other words, the demons do not believe in the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) and are not saved. Their trust and reliance are in Satan (and not in Jesus) as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works.

In James 2:24, James is not using the term "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3)

 

[Titus]

Genuine faith is evidenced by good works;

Correct
Logically faith alone meaning a persons faith that has not yet obeyed Jesus cannot be genuine.

The gospel of Jesus Christ must first be believed, Romans 10:17.
Then once an individual comes to belief it must be obeyed.

The faith only gospel teaches salvation comes only by belief alone.
No obedience required.

After salvation one begins to obey God.
It is fundamentally impossible to be saved by Jesus' gospel before it is obeyed.

Hebrews 5:8-9,
- though Jesus were a Son yet He learned He obedience by the things which He suffered and being made perfect He became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey Him


Salvation is not unconditional.
If God requires only one condition: belief in Jesus.
Then that would be obedience to the gospel.
Jesus requires more from us than just mental belief in Jesus.

All of the new testament commandments are not required for the alien sinner to be saved.
Many commandments must be obeyed after we are saved.
Heres Jesus' gospel unto salvation.

Hear the gospel Romans 10:17
Believe the gospel Roman 10:17; John 3:16
Repent of our sinful rebellion against God, Acts 2:38; Acts 17:30-31
Confess our faith that Jesus is the Son of God, Romans 10:9-10 ; Acts 8:37; 1Timothy 6:12
Be baptized for the forgiveness of sins, Acts 2:37-38; Acts 22:16; Mark 16:15-16
Live faithfully till death, Revelation 2:10

Even belief is a command, 1John 3:23-24.
We cannot cherry pick which commandments we want to obey to be saved.
All of the gospel must be obeyed.

The faith alone gospel says no obedience to be saved which is a contradiction in their own doctrine.
They teach you just believe in Him.
That requires obedience to the command to believe.

So the only way you can remove works which is obedience to be saved is to remove faith itself.
John 6:28-29 belief in Jesus is a work according to Jesus.

Faith is more than just mental assent.

Since this false gospel has contradictions we know it is from man not God.

To understand what I'm teaching you must know I'm not speaking of all the different kinds of works in the Bible.

There are works that are obedience to God.
There are works of merit that are not possible, Ephesians 2:8-9.
There are works of the Spirit that the saved work.
There are works of carnality.
Many, many works in the Bible.

So I'm not treaching a works based gospel which is trying to merit salvation through ones own works.

I'm teaching true Biblical saving faith that always obeys what God commands.
The true gospel is Grace through faith.
We are saved by Grace.
But Gods grace is conditional.
God does not impart grace to the unbeliever.
God imparts grace to those who believe and choose by free will to give or submit their lives to Christ.
That is being saved by Grace through faith as the gospel teaches.

 

[Justified]

Logically faith alone meaning a persons faith that has not yet obeyed Jesus cannot be genuine.

Not so. Again, what does Paul say:

Eph 2:4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us,
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—
Eph 2:6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. (ESV)

Tit 3:4 But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared,
Tit 3:5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,
Tit 3:6 whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
Tit 3:7 so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. (ESV)

According to Paul, when are we saved and when do works come into the picture?

The gospel of Jesus Christ must first be believed, Romans 10:17.
Then once an individual comes to belief it must be obeyed.

Now you're contradicting the claim you just made above.

The faith only gospel teaches salvation comes only by belief alone.
No obedience required.

Who actually teaches that? I have never heard anyone teach that no obedience is required. Yet, I have heard many times that we are justified by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.

After salvation one begins to obey God.

"After;" exactly.

It is fundamentally impossible to be saved by Jesus' gospel before it is obeyed.

Then you are in disagreement with the NT. You are teaching salvation by works and contradicting your statement immediately above. Is it before or after? You must make up your mind.

Hebrews 5:8-9,
- though Jesus were a Son yet He learned He obedience by the things which He suffered and being made perfect He became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey Him

And what is this supposed to show?

Salvation is not unconditional.
If God requires only one condition: belief in Jesus.
Then that would be obedience to the gospel.
Jesus requires more from us than just mental belief in Jesus.

All of the new testament commandments are not required for the alien sinner to be saved.
Many commandments must be obeyed after we are saved.
Heres Jesus' gospel unto salvation.

Hear the gospel Romans 10:17
Believe the gospel Roman 10:17; John 3:16
Repent of our sinful rebellion against God, Acts 2:38; Acts 17:30-31
Confess our faith that Jesus is the Son of God, Romans 10:9-10 ; Acts 8:37; 1Timothy 6:12
Be baptized for the forgiveness of sins, Acts 2:37-38; Acts 22:16; Mark 16:15-16
Live faithfully till death, Revelation 2:10

Even belief is a command, 1John 3:23-24.
We cannot cherry pick which commandments we want to obey to be saved.
All of the gospel must be obeyed.

You keep conflating obedience as the evidence of salvation--a person who is truly saved will genuinely want to obey God--with salvation by works. It's either one or the other, not both.

The faith alone gospel says no obedience to be saved which is a contradiction in their own doctrine.

They teach you just believe in Him.
That requires obedience to the command to believe.

One cannot believe if God isn't already working in the heart to cause one to believe. Salvation is work of God from start to finish.

So the only way you can remove works which is obedience to be saved is to remove faith itself.
John 6:28-29 belief in Jesus is a work according to Jesus.

Which cannot be done without God already at work in the heart.

Faith is more than just mental assent.

Of course.

Since this false gospel has contradictions we know it is from man not God.

To understand what I'm teaching you must know I'm not speaking of all the different kinds of works in the Bible.

There are works that are obedience to God.
There are works of merit that are not possible, Ephesians 2:8-9.
There are works of the Spirit that the saved work.
There are works of carnality.
Many, many works in the Bible.

So I'm not treaching a works based gospel which is trying to merit salvation through ones own works.

But you are, and you are not. Again, you need to figure out which position you're going to stay with.

I'm teaching true Biblical saving faith that always obeys what God commands.
The true gospel is Grace through faith.
We are saved by Grace.
But Gods grace is conditional.
God does not impart grace to the unbeliever.
God imparts grace to those who believe and choose by free will to give or submit their lives to Christ.
That is being saved by Grace through faith as the gospel teaches.

That is salvation by works, since you're basing it on the requirement for a person to believe. That is the opposite of salvation by grace.

Notice this key claim of Pauls:

Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—

How do spiritually dead people make a choice by their free will to submit to Christ? They can't and, according to Jesus, they won't:

Joh 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
Joh 3:19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil.
Joh 3:20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. (ESV)

 

[Titus]

Correct
Logically faith alone meaning a persons faith that has not yet obeyed Jesus cannot be genuine.

Not so. Again, what does Paul say:

You already admitted yourself faith cannot be genuine if it has no works.

Genuine faith is evidenced by good works; a lack of good works is evidence of a dead faith.

You are contradicting yourself.

 

[Justified]

You already admitted yourself faith cannot be genuine if it has no works.

As I have stated several times—you have to keep it in context—true faith produces good works, but good works do not save.

You are contradicting yourself.

How so, exactly?

 

[Titus]

As I have stated several times—you have to keep it in context—true faith produces good works, but good works do not save.


How so, exactly?

True faith cannot be absent of good works, Ephesians 2:10.
Therefore what is faith that has no good works?
If your faith in Jesus never obeyed any of His commandments ever. Would that be genuine faith?
We both agree genuine faith obeys God.
So trying to be saved by a faith that has never worked obedience to God is not a genuine saving faith.
James defines faith that has no works as a dead faith.
Anyone who claims they are saved by a faith with no works is trying to be saved with a dead faith.

James 2:20,
- but wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead

By dead James means it is worthlesss.
James is so plain. He says faith that obeys is what justifies not faith alone(no obedience).

You cannot claim the faith that saved you had no obedience.
Then claim the only faith that is geniune must have works.
That is a logical contradiction.

Genuine faith is evidenced by good works; a lack of good works is evidence of a dead faith.

 

[Justified]

True faith cannot be absent of good works, Ephesians 2:10.

Of course, and we must be careful to note that according to Eph. 2:10, believers are “created in Christ Jesus for good works . . . that we should walk in them.” That means that one is a believer first and then they do the good works that “God prepared beforehand.” The wording is very important.

Therefore what is faith that has no good works?
If your faith in Jesus never obeyed any of His commandments ever. Would that be genuine faith?
We both agree genuine faith obeys God.
So trying to be saved by a faith that has never worked obedience to God is not a genuine saving faith.
James defines faith that has no works as a dead faith.
Anyone who claims they are saved by a faith with no works is trying to be saved with a dead faith.

You’re conflating salvation (justification) by grace, through faith, as a gift of God (meaning it is not by works) that results in good works, with a claim to salvation that never works. As a result, you’re promoting salvation by works.

James 2:20,

- but wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead

By dead James means it is worthlesss.
James is so plain.

Yes, I know; I have said as much.

He says faith that obeys is what justifies not faith alone(no obedience).

But the issue is what is meant by “justifies.” I have asked you this before, in post #169 above, and you did not answer. I provided the definitions previously, HERE.

You cannot claim the faith that saved you had no obedience.

Then claim the only faith that is geniune must have works.
That is a logical contradiction.

No, it isn’t. You’re just not understanding. Perhaps you don’t fully understand how the NT talks of salvation. It speaks of it as a past event (justification), a past event and ongoing process (sanctification), and a future fulfillment (glorification).

The moment a person is justified (declared righteous), they are saved. There are no works observable in a moment, don’t you agree? And so a truly justified person will start to want to do and then actually do good works, as the Holy Spirit begins to renew them. That is evidence of having been declared righteous.

 

[Titus]

James 2:20,
- but wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead

Yes, I know; I have said as much

Then why are you teaching me a faith with no works, what James describes as dead faith,
Is how we are saved?
James teaches a dead faith is worthless. Only faith that works justifies according to James.
Do you not realize you are contradicting James on which faith justifies.
You claim its before works.
James teaches faith is dead until it has works, then it justifies.

Of course, and we must be careful to note that according to Eph. 2:10, believers are “created in Christ Jesus for good works . . . that we should walk in them.” That means that one is a believer first and then they do the good works that “God prepared beforehand.” The wording is very important

You have rightly divided this verse. Well done

You are correct that one is a believer first.
Again it is a logical impossibility for someone to work obedience to God before they have faith/trust in Him.
Ephesians 2:10 is speaking of the good works that the saved do... not works to be saved, you are correct.

So the natural progression of every alien sinner is in this order: Romans 10:17 Hear the gospel. Then they believe the gospel. Then they obey/work the gospel.

What you are getting wrong is, in your doctrine works only come after salvation.
In the true gospel of Jesus Christ. Works come as a result of faith before salvation and then following salvation known as faithfulness.

So saving faith includes obedience.
Then after salvation faith continues to include obedience.

That is the faith that James teaches saves. Otherwise if you have belief only. You are claiming you were saved by a dead faith.

It is impossible to be saved without obedience to the gospel.

Belief itself is a commandment, therefore believing in Jesus is working the commandment to believe.

There is no such thing as salvation without an obedient faith.

If you just believe you are doing a work.
This is a Biblical fact and this is why faith alone salvation is a fictious made up false gospel.

John 6:28-29,
- then said they unto Jesus, what shall we do that  we might work the works of God,
Jesus answered and said unto them, this is the work of God, that ye believe on Him whom He hath sent

Notice they asked Jesus how they might work the works of God.
Jesus told them believing in Him is how one works the works of God.
According to Jesus belief in Him is a work.

Every commandment that is obeyed is doing a work.
Doing what the word says is a work.
Dont mistake these works as God doing this work because Jesus says works of God.
God does not believe for you.

"Work of God" means what God requires of you.
This idea of faith did not originate in mans mind.
Man did not come up with faith in Jesus.
Faith in Christ is from Gods mind.
And God requires you to believe in Jesus.
Thus these are works of God.
If they were works of man, then it would be what man requires from you to do/work.
Since belief is a requirement from God, this requirement is a work of God.

God does not work His commandments that He tells us to obey.
But they are His commandments so when we work them we are working the works of God.

1John 3:23-24,
- and this is Gods commandment that  we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another as He gave  us commandment

When you believe you have obeyed a commandment therefore you have worked a work of God.

Hopefully you can see now that it is logically impossible to be saved by belief and no obedience/works.

As I have already stated. The only way to be saved by Grace alone and no works is to remove faith from the gospel as a requirement for salvation.

A salvation with no works would be Grace alone meaning no faith required.

Faith alone salvation is fictitious and contradictory.
It makes no sense because God Himself made belief a commandment and that makes belief a work.

Can you work/obey any commandment and it not be a work? No, it is impossible.

The faith that saves is the faith that obeys.