So... here it is: our being born again of the Spirit "is an act of the Holy Spirit"... previous to which we were dead in our sin,... That's good so far... <smile> Yeah, in which case we would never put our faith in Him.
Here you are again making a claim that is never taught in scripture. Why do you think you can do that? Do you think you have more authority than scripture itself? Where does scripture teach that being dead in sins means that someone can't put their faith in Jesus Christ. Show me.
You don't understand what being dead in sins means. People who are dead in sins can do all kinds of things. They can make decisions about where to go to college, who to marry, what career they want to pursue, where they want to live and many other things, including moral decisions. So, people who are dead in sins regularly make many decisions, but somehow they are not able to decide whether to accept or reject Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior? How does that make any sense?
No, being dead in sins means someone is separated from a personal relationship with God. It has nothing to do with what someone is capable of doing or not. Death is separation. When someone physically dies, their soul and spirit separates from their body. Not sure if you believe in eternal torment or annihilation, but if you believe in the latter, then you understand that the second death results in eternal conscious separation from God. So, you attribute things to being dead in sins that scripture never does.
Jesus said that sinners are sick. If your understanding of what it means to be dead in sins was accurate then there is no way, shape or form that sinners could be considered to be sick. Yet, that is what Jesus taught.
Mark 2:15 Now it happened, as He was dining in
Levi’s house, that many tax collectors and sinners also sat together with Jesus and His disciples; for there were many, and they followed Him. 16 And when the scribes and Pharisees saw Him eating with the tax collectors and sinners, they said to His disciples, “How
is it that He eats and drinks with tax collectors and sinners?” 17
When Jesus heard it, He said to them, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.”
So, Jesus said that sinners are sick and in need of a physician (Him) to heal them. And He said that He calls sinners to repentance. He said that after being questioned why He was eating and drinking with tax collectors and sinners. That means He was calling people like them to repentance, so the reason He spent time with them was because of His desire for them to repent of their sins. We both know that all people are sinners (Romans 3:23). So, are there any sinners who Jesus does not call to repentance? No. He simply said He calls sinners to repentance and did not make any exceptions. So, He clearly understood that sinners who are dead in sins, yet also spiritually sick are all capable of repenting of their sins and putting their faith in Him. You deny that, but Jesus clearly taught it.
But continuing on you say, "He makes us born again after we have accepted Christ and put our faith in Him in order to make us into born again... children... of God..." I, uh, you know, I'm sorry, I truly am, but I can't help but laugh... I mean, that's like saying in baseball that a batter can't hit a home run until the pitcher actually pitches the ball (which is correct, of course), but the batter hits the homer and then the pitcher actually pitches the ball after the batter has already hit it (which is impossible)... Yes, I know how ludicrous that sounds, but that's what you're doing. Oh... he "free-willed" it out of the park, and then the pitcher actually pitched the ball...
This doesn't even deserve a response. What a bunch of incoherent gibberish. Do you actually think ridiculous arguments like this are going to convince me that what you believe is true? No chance. Use scripture to support your claims, not ludicrous, nonsensical analogies.
No, Jesus is the Author and Finisher... Founder and Perfector... of our faith (Hebrews 12:2).
Again, you misinterpret yet another verse. Here is a serious question for you. Do you ever ask God for wisdom in understanding His word? You can do that and He will answer if you don't doubt (James 1:5-7). You misinterpret so much scripturer that it boggles my mind. You allow doctrinal bias to cloud your vision. You clearly don't interpret scripture objectively. What that verse is saying is that He is the author, finisher, founder and perfector of Christianity. The Christian faith. Not of my individual faith or your individual faith. You continue to prove that you don't even know what faith is.
As is so often the case, you fail to take other scripture into consideration while interpreting any given verse or passage. Look at this passage..
Romans 4:1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? 2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3
What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” 4 Now
to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness. 6 David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom
God credits righteousness apart from works: 7 “Blessed are those whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered. 8 Blessed is the one whose sin the Lord will never count against them.
If faith was given to us and Jesus was the author or giver of our personal faith, then that would contradict what passages like the above indicate because, in that case, faith would only be accounted or credited to Jesus as righteousness, not to the one who has faith. Yet, the passage above credits Abraham for his faith, not God. And his faith is contrasted with works. It says Abraham was not justified by works, but he was justified by his faith. Yet, you try to say that faith is a work. No, not in the sense of the type of works that we are not saved by that would give us cause for boasting.
So, can you tell me why you draw conclusions from verses like Hebrews 12:2 without taking other scriptures like Romans 4:1-8 into consideration? Don't you want to have beliefs which don't contradict any scriptures? Don't you want to have beliefs that can be reconciled with all of scripture?
He is responsible for it beginning and coming to full fruition. You know, to understand how faith works in us, and God's working faith in us, Romans 4 is fantastic.
Wow! I posted the above before seeing this. This is truly mind boggling. How can you reference Romans 4 in support of your beliefs when your beliefs contradict what is written in Romans 4, as I showed above?
You should clearly see there that faith is not the prerequisite of our salvation (it cannot be, because we don't have it unless God gives it to us ~ again, His assurance and conviction by the Spirit, the very definition of faith; we cannot have it before He gives it (see my baseball analogy again <smile>) but rather the vehicle through which we are saved. I mean, read what God says about Abraham in Romans 4, particularly that Abraham's faith did not make him righteous, but that through faith ~ God's assurance ~ God credited him with righteousness.
Goodness gracious. You just have no idea of what you're saying here. How could Abraham's faith be credited as righteousness if it wasn't his own faith? That makes no sense whatsoever. I am astounded at how much scripture you misinterpret.
It was an action of God, His work.
What?! Nowhere does it say that. It says "Abraham believed God". You act as if it says God gave Abraham faith, but it clearly says Abraham put his faith in God. That's not something that can be forced. God does not force anyone to believe in Him. He wants people to believe in Him willingly. And Abraham did and it was credited to him as righteousness. Not that Abraham was righteous. He was a sinner like everyone else. But, God can count or credit faith as righteousness in the sense that it's the right thing to do. It's what God wants us to do. To humble ourselves and submit ourselves to Him. So, an act of submission indicating that someone is acknowledging that they are not righteous is counted as righteousness because it is what God requires of us. Nowhere does it teach that Abraham's faith was given to him rather than it being his own free will decision to believe in God.
And not only that, but also that Abraham "grew strong in his faith as he gave glory to God, fully convinced that God was able to do what he had promised." He did not give himself faith, nor did he make it stronger.
Where does it actually say that his faith was not actually his own faith? Nowhere! You keep making claims that are not actually written in scripture. Why?
