The fallacy of believing Jesus was talking about the temple of stones on the Mount of Olives

[marks]

Right. I didn't say otherwise, but @claninja just doesn't get that.

I'm not interested in being a part of your badmouthing others.

 

[CTK]

I’ll admit im not totally familiar with dates. When did imperial Rome fall and when did papal Rome rise ?

I’ll admit im not totally familiar with dates. When did imperial Rome fall and when did papal Rome rise ?

The Fourth Kingdom, the Clay, and the Rise of the Little Horn​

Daniel does not present the fourth kingdom as a static power. Pagan Rome begins as the iron kingdom before the cross, ruling over the covenant people with military strength, legal authority, and imperial dominion. At that stage, the clay is present within the iron. God’s people are living under Rome’s rule, but they have not yet been separated from its control in the way Daniel’s prophecy later reveals.

That separation begins when the Stone strikes the image.

In Daniel 2:34, the Stone strikes the image at the feet, where iron and clay are joined together. This is not merely a symbol of destruction; it is also a symbol of separation. The coming of Christ exposes the difference between the clay and the iron. The Jewish people who receive Jesus as the Messiah are no longer simply clay trapped under Rome’s authority. They become pottery clay — softened, reshaped, and prepared by the hand of God. Through them, Jesus establishes His earthly church.

This is one of the consequences of the cross. The Stone does not immediately destroy Rome politically, but He does begin separating a people from within the Roman world. Those who receive Him go out into the empire preaching the good news. The early church begins as a servant body, shaped by the apostles, grounded in the testimony of Jesus, and moved by the Spirit of God. Yet from Rome’s perspective, this movement is illegal, disruptive, and dangerous. For roughly three centuries, the church remains under pressure, suspicion, and periodic persecution from pagan Rome.

Then the restraint begins to change.

In the early fourth century, Constantine’s legalization of Christianity changes the church’s outward position. What had once been persecuted becomes tolerated. What had once been illegal becomes accepted. And within a few generations, Christianity is no longer merely tolerated within the empire; it becomes the favored and then official religion of the Roman world. But this acceptance also creates a new danger. The church that began as a suffering, apostolic, servant body now begins to take on the structure, habits, and hierarchy of Rome itself.

This is where the clay and iron imagery becomes especially important. Daniel 2:41 says that the kingdom would be divided, yet “the strength of the iron shall be in it.” The iron does not disappear after the cross. Rome’s political, legal, administrative, and coercive strength remains present. But now that strength begins to mingle with the religious body that claims to represent Christ.

The church grows, but it also changes. As Gentile dominance increases, the church increasingly separates itself from its Jewish roots. Pagan customs, imperial patterns, and Roman forms of authority begin to enter the Christian system. Instead of remaining a simple apostolic body proclaiming salvation through the Messiah, the church becomes an organized imperial institution with bishops, centers of power, councils, offices, and a hierarchy that resembles the Roman system around it.

At this stage, the little horn has not yet appeared in its full prophetic form. The mystery of lawlessness may already be at work, but it is still restrained. Pagan Rome still dominates the structure. The church may be growing, but it remains under the shadow of imperial authority. The bishop of Rome is rising in influence, but he has not yet become the dominant religious-political power Daniel describes.

Daniel 7 helps us see the next stage. The little horn does not come from outside the fourth beast. It rises from the fourth beast itself, among the ten horns. Daniel says, “I considered the horns, and behold, there came up among them another horn, a little one” (Daniel 7:8). Later, the angel explains that this horn arises after the ten kings and becomes different from the first ones (Daniel 7:24). This means the little horn belongs to the Roman world, but it is not merely another political kingdom. It is different. It grows out of the same beast system, but it takes on a religious character.

That is why the fall of pagan Rome becomes so significant. In 476 AD, the Western Roman imperial structure collapses. In Daniel 7:11, the fourth beast is judged and its body is given to the burning flame. In historical terms, pagan Rome’s direct imperial restraint is removed. But the Roman system does not vanish. Its strength, structure, law, and authority continue in another form. The iron remains in the kingdom.

Now the bishop of Rome is no longer restrained in the same way by the old pagan imperial power. The Roman church can rise into the vacuum left by the collapse of the Western empire. The little horn begins to stand more visibly within the remains of the fourth kingdom. It is not Rome as pagan empire, but Rome as religious-political authority. It speaks in the name of God, claims authority over doctrine and worship, and begins to occupy a place within the visible church that belongs only to Christ.

This is where Paul’s language in 2 Thessalonians 2 becomes so important. The man of lawlessness “sits in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.” This does not need to mean a man sitting inside a physical Jewish temple. When read alongside Daniel’s little horn, it points to a religious power taking its seat within the sphere of God’s people, claiming divine authority from within the church itself.

The restraint is removed in stages. First, the church is persecuted by pagan Rome. Then it is legalized under Constantine. Then it becomes joined to the Roman imperial structure. Then pagan Rome collapses in the West. Then the Roman bishopric rises in the power vacuum. And finally, under Justinian, the authority of the bishop of Rome is formally elevated, with 538 AD becoming significant in the historicist framework because the remaining political restraint is removed and the papal power can function more openly.

So the little horn does not appear suddenly and fully formed. It has a genesis, a path, and a progression. It begins in the post-cross world, after Christ establishes His church. It grows during the centuries when the church is moving from persecution to imperial acceptance. It gains structure as the church becomes Romanized. It gains freedom after the fall of pagan Rome. And it gains recognized authority when the Roman bishopric receives power over religious matters.

This progression supports the connection between Daniel’s little horn and Paul’s man of lawlessness. Both describe a power that rises from within, not merely from without. Both involve religious authority, not merely military conquest. Both exalt themselves in the sphere of God’s worship. Both corrupt truth while claiming to defend it. And both continue until God Himself brings judgment.

In this way, Daniel’s fourth kingdom progresses from pagan Rome, to the post-cross separation of the clay, to the persecuted apostolic church, to the imperial church, and finally to the rise of papal Rome as the little horn. The iron remains, but it is now carried through a religious system. The beast changes form, but its strength continues. And the little horn rises precisely where Daniel said it would — from within the fourth beast kingdom, after the earlier horns, speaking great words, opposing the Most High, and claiming authority over the people and worship of God.

 

[covenantee]

As to the temple, A.) I provided the BDAG lexicon which lists 2 Thessalonians 2:4 use of naos under uses consistent with the physical temple.

If 2 Thessalonians 2:4 is referring to the physical temple of God, what physical temple of God is that?

It can't be the temple of God in Jerusalem, because that temple was destroyed not many years after Paul wrote.

It can't be the temple of God in Revelation, because that temple is in heaven.

What else could it be?

 

[grafted branch]

The preterist framework is a joke. In no way, shape or form has Jesus yet returned while having His people gathered to Him "in the air".

A preterist could claim that Jesus has already returned and then refer to 1 Corinthians 2:10-16 and say the Holy Spirit teaches that, and those who don’t believe that way don’t have spiritual discernment. I don’t think that would be a correct way of using those verses but nevertheless someone could argue that way.

I seriously doubt there are two people on this forum that are in agreement on every verse. Only one interpretation can be correct and we might have a thread where several interpretations on a verse are being discussed and each person claims they have spiritual discernment and are being guided by the Holy Spirit.

What metric should we use to know if we have spiritual discernment on a particular verse or not? I know myself that I have thought in the past that I knew how to interpret a verse correctly and that I had spiritual discernment on that verse, only to later come to realize I wasn’t interpreting that verse correctly. What I thought was spiritual discernment wasn’t, I don’t think spiritual discernment means just feeling good about how someone interprets a verse, although we should feel joy from the Holy Spirit.

So how can a person know with absolute certainty that they have spiritual discernment that gives the correct interpretation of a verse?

 

[TribulationSigns]

If 2 Thessalonians 2:4 is referring to the physical temple of God, what physical temple of God is that?

It can't be the temple of God in Jerusalem, because that temple was destroyed not many years after Paul wrote.

It can't be the temple of God in Revelation, because that temple is in heaven.

What else could it be?

The confusion comes from failing to distinguish between Christ Himself, His true saints, and the outward corporate church.

Jesus Christ is the true Temple of God.

“Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.” He spoke of the temple of His body (John 2:19–21).

No abomination can stand in Him. No corruption can dwell in the Holy One of God.

The true elect who are born of His Spirit are also called the temple of God because Christ dwells in them. The Spirit of God does not share His dwelling place with lawlessness. The saints are washed, sanctified, and sealed in Christ.

But Scripture also speaks of the outward visible congregation — the New Testament corporate body that bears God’s name on earth. This visible church contains both wheat and tares, wise and foolish virgins, faithful servants and evil servants. It is within this outward temple realm that corruption, apostasy, false prophets, and antichrists arise. Selah!

That is exactly Paul’s warning in 2 Thessalonians 2:4.

The man of sin does not sit in Christ Himself. Neither does he reign inside the truly regenerated elect. He sits in the professing temple — the unfaithful visible church claiming to belong to God while becoming corrupted from within.

This is why the apostles constantly warned about deception arising among the assemblies:

“From among your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things.” (Acts 20:30)

“There shall be false teachers among you.” (2 Peter 2:1)

“Even now are there many antichrists.” (1 John 2:18)

The mystery of iniquity was already working in the New Testament church, not in pagan Rome alone, not Jerusalem, not Captiol Hill, but inside the visible New Testament congregations all over the world where false shepherds exalted themselves in God’s house.

The temple in 2 Thessalonians 2:4 is therefore not a future rebuilt Jewish temple made with stones. Nor 70AD because God ended that Old Testament Congregation in judgment at the Cross. Nor is it heaven itself. It is the outward corporate temple of profession on earth — the visible church sphere where men claim divine authority while opposing the true Christ, where many churchgoers will believe their lies and receive the mark (being owned by Satan).

This is where the abomination stands. The abomination of desolation.

This is where God allows the false christs to rule in His unfaithful church as a judgment.

This is where the man of sin (false prophets and christs with spirit of antichrist) exalts himself “as God.”

And this is why the final apostasy and desolation must happen first before the Second Coming — because deception enters the house that claims to belong to God. The judgment must take place in His House, where we can only see the abomination of desolation stands in where it does not belong. Selah.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Imperial Rome fell in 476 AD/CE, and papal Rome "subdued" the first of the three kings of Daniel 7:24 in 493 CE.

You believe in Imperial Rome/Papal Rome crap? You believe Daniel 7:24 is talking about the Papal Church?!

No wonder that many people came up with Antiochus IV Epiphanes, the ten common market states, Roman Empire, or Papal Rome, etc. etc. etc. based on "world history." That is nothing but another well oiled myth, which proves that people like you are merely blindly reading from the script of the Premillennialism and Preterism handbook, and not from the Bible. You're following a man-made formula that changes like the weather. In the Bible Horns signify power (Daniel 8:7), the number 10 signifies its fullness, and they are kings illustrating their rule. Kings don't symbolize that they are Princes, Presidents, Leaders, kings, or Prime Ministers of any political nation or empire. God is talking about the rules of the beast through the fullness of the time of the end. The body of the beast are people - the false prophets and christs who are having enmity against Christ and His saints, the New Testament congregation, not the political nation of Israel.

Daniel 7:24-26

• "And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
• And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
• But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end."

Listen, the different countries of the world are not wearing out (causing affliction to) the saints as prophesied, it is the false Christs, false prophets, man of sin and his minions of the congregation of God. Sure, some countries are going to persecute Christians somewhere, but that has always been the case! But the great tribulation "FOR" the Church/Saints is something far more sinister and dangerous than beatings or killings. It is a deception so great of the false prophets and christs that if the days weren't shortened, there would be no flesh left on earth to be saved. When Revelation 17 says the 10 horns have received no kingdom yet, it is declaring they have not come to rule yet the saints, but their horn (power) comes in as the beast is loosed, as is illustrated in the context of the chapter. Clearly, God is not talking about Rome or Papal here...if you understand what the horn and beast as God defined these!

But, of course, if you want to keep looking at political nations and states and countries or certain "one man" as the beast or little horn to fit your doctrine, instead of allowing the Bible to interpret itself, you will never have any understanding of prophesy.

 

[covenantee]

You believe in Imperial Rome/Papal Rome crap? You believe Daniel 7:24 is talking about the Papal Church?!

Matthew 21:12
And Jesus went into His body of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in His body, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves,

 

[Jay Ross]

The confusion comes from failing to distinguish between Christ Himself, His true saints, and the outward corporate church.

Jesus Christ is the true Temple of God.

“Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.” He spoke of the temple of His body (John 2:19–21).

No abomination can stand in Him. No corruption can dwell in the Holy One of God.

The true elect who are born of His Spirit are also called the temple of God because Christ dwells in them. The Spirit of God does not share His dwelling place with lawlessness. The saints are washed, sanctified, and sealed in Christ.

In the John 2:18-21 the following is stated: -

​

John 2:18-21: - 18 On account of this, the Jews demanded, “What sign can You show us to prove Your authority to do these things?”​

​

19 Jesus answered, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up again.”​

​

20 “This temple took forty-six years to build,” the Jews replied, “and You are going to raise it up in three days?”​

​

21 But Jesus was speaking about the temple of His body. 22 After He was raised from the dead, His disciples remembered that He had said this. Then they believed the Scripture and the word that Jesus had spoken.​

​

BSB​

Now the interesting questions that needs to be asked is, "Who will cause the Temple to be destroyed as spoken about in 2 Chronicles 7:19-22?": -

​

2 Chronicles 7:19-22: - 19 "But if you turn away and forsake the statutes and commandments I have set before you, and if you go off to serve and worship other gods, 20 then I will uproot Israel from the soil I have given them, and I will banish from My presence this temple I have sanctified for My Name. I will make it an object of scorn and ridicule among all the peoples.​

​

​

​

21 "And when this temple has become a heap of rubble, all who pass by it will be appalled and say, ‘Why has the LORD done such a thing to this land and to this temple?’ 22 And others will answer, ‘Because they have forsaken the LORD, the God of their fathers, who brought them out of the land of Egypt, and have embraced other gods, worshiping and serving them—because of this, He has brought all this disaster upon them.’”​

NKJV​

And "When will the temple become a heap of rubble as spoken about in 2 Chronicles 7:19-22?"

The answer to the first question, Is the people of the nation of Israel, led by the Temple's High Priests, Priests, Scribes as Pharisees.

And the answer to the second question as recorded in the Historical record is 70 AD.

My next question is, if the temple is destroyed around 40 years later, then Christ was not literally talking about the temple of His body being destroyed, and being raised again three days after His crucifixion, when He was resurrected three days later, which is the traditional understanding given for this passage of John.

If Jesus was saying that after the temple was destroyed by the Israelites in 70 AD, that in three days, He would raise it up again. The people who requested by what authority Jesus had cleansed the temple were astounded when they heard Jesus say that He would rebuild the temple within three days, but Jesus' time frame to rebuild the temple was in the distant future around 3,000 plus years into the future, when He will cause the righteous Saints to assemble together to form the temple to worship with Christ, God on the refurbished earth.

Tribulation Signs, I would suggest that you have not meditated long enough on the John 2:18-22 verses to fully understand what Jesus had actually stated.

Shalom

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

A preterist could claim that Jesus has already returned and then refer to 1 Corinthians 2:10-16 and say the Holy Spirit teaches that, and those who don’t believe that way don’t have spiritual discernment. I don’t think that would be a correct way of using those verses but nevertheless someone could argue that way.

I seriously doubt there are two people on this forum that are in agreement on every verse. Only one interpretation can be correct and we might have a thread where several interpretations on a verse are being discussed and each person claims they have spiritual discernment and are being guided by the Holy Spirit.

What metric should we use to know if we have spiritual discernment on a particular verse or not? I know myself that I have thought in the past that I knew how to interpret a verse correctly and that I had spiritual discernment on that verse, only to later come to realize I wasn’t interpreting that verse correctly. What I thought was spiritual discernment wasn’t, I don’t think spiritual discernment means just feeling good about how someone interprets a verse, although we should feel joy from the Holy Spirit.

So how can a person know with absolute certainty that they have spiritual discernment that gives the correct interpretation of a verse?

In the case of 2 Thessalonians 2:4, we know that it relates to a time before Jesus comes and we are gathered to Him, right? We can know that by reading the preceding verses. Jesus has not yet come and His people have not yet been gathered to Him, so the temple of God that Paul references in the verse has to be a temple that will exist when Jesus comes again. The physical temple obviously was destroyed long ago. You and I both know it can't be talking about some future physical temple. So, what does that leave? A spiritual temple. And we know that every other time Paul used the word "naos", it referred to a spiritual temple of God, whether it was in reference to our bodies or to the corporate body of Christ (the church).

 

[grafted branch]

In the case of 2 Thessalonians 2:4, we know that it relates to a time before Jesus comes and we are gathered to Him, right? We can know that by reading the preceding verses. Jesus has not yet come and His people have not yet been gathered to Him, so the temple of God that Paul references in the verse has to be a temple that will exist when Jesus comes again. The physical temple obviously was destroyed long ago. You and I both know it can't be talking about some future physical temple. So, what does that leave? A spiritual temple. And we know that every other time Paul used the word "naos", it referred to a spiritual temple of God, whether it was in reference to our bodies or to the corporate body of Christ (the church).

Sure, if we know Jesus didn’t come in 70AD then that makes sense. Someone may argue that it takes spiritual discernment to know that there was a coming in 70AD and therefore your argument doesn’t make sense.

You have used physical evidence and logic in the past to conclude that there wasn’t a 70AD coming, but if that coming has to be spiritually discerned then a preterist could point to 1 Corinthians 2:13 and say man’s wisdom uses physical evidence and logic but the Holy Spirit teaches a 70AD coming.

How can we know if we are using spiritual discernment or not?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Sure, if we know Jesus didn’t come in 70AD then that makes sense. Someone may argue that it takes spiritual discernment to know that there was a coming in 70AD and therefore your argument doesn’t make sense.

Sure, someone could argue that, but that means nothing to me if they can't back up that claim with scripture.

You have used physical evidence and logic in the past to conclude that there wasn’t a 70AD coming, but if that coming has to be spiritually discerned then a preterist could point to 1 Corinthians 2:13 and say man’s wisdom uses physical evidence and logic but the Holy Spirit teaches a 70AD coming.

Why are you going on about spiritual discernment when I didn't say anything about that in the post you had responded to?

How can we know if we are using spiritual discernment or not?

1 Corinthians 2:10 But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Scripture is inspired by the Holy Spirit. Paul indicated that the deep things of God, which I would say include some of the things we talk about on this forum, can't be understood by the natural man (a person without the Holy Spirit) because they are spiritually discerned. That means we need the Holy Spirit's help to discern the deep things of God in scripture. Do you agree with that?

As for how we know if we are using spiritual discernment or not, I don't know how to answer that exactly, but I'll try.

John 14:26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.

Do you never feel like the Holy Spirit is teaching you something? I'm not talking about Him just revealing something to you out of the blue, but showing you what something means in scripture? If you do, then how would you explain how you know that the Holy Spirit is doing that? I guess the way we can know is if our interpretations consistently line up with what is taught in scripture as a whole. The Holy Spirit can help us with that. So, in the case of 2 Thessalonians 2:4, we can look at the first few verses to see the context of it in terms of what time period it relates to. Based on the context established in those verses, it relates to a time period just before the second coming of Christ when we are gathered to Him. The Holy Spirit can then bring our attention to 1 Thess 4:14-17 where Paul wrote about Jesus coming, the dead in Christ being resurrected and all of us (resurrected dead in Christ and those who are alive and remain) being gathered to Him "in the air". Is there any scripture which would indicate that could have already happened? I don't believe so. So, we can then discern that the temple of God in 2 Thessalonians 2:4 has to be a temple that exists at the time Jesus returns and we are gathered to Him in the air in the future. Since God does not dwell in temples made with hands (Acts 7:48, Acts 17:24), that means it has to refer to a spiritual temple. And every other time Paul wrote about the temple (Greek: naos) it referred to a spiritual temple (temple of our bodies or the church). So, we can know that we are using spiritual discernment if we are being led by the Holy Spirit to make sure our interpretations line up with scripture as a whole and don't contradict any other scriptures.

 

[grafted branch]

Sure, someone could argue that, but that means nothing to me if they can't back up that claim with scripture.

Well, I don’t want to get into that debate but those who believe in a 70AD coming do back it up with scripture that says things like “last hour” and “I am coming soon”. I know you have an interpretation that explains why those phrases were used and why there was still approximately 2,000 years and counting till His coming, and you also use scripture but only one interpretation can be correct.

That means we need the Holy Spirit's help to discern the deep things of God in scripture. Do you agree with that?

If it comes down to what the Holy Spirit has revealed to us and we have two different interpretations on the deep things of God, then someone doesn’t have the Holy Spirit revealing things to them while they themselves are convinced otherwise. Satan comes as an angel of light so I guess we should conclude that’s what’s going on.

Or, we could say what the deep things the Holy Spirit reveals is those things that all believers have in common, such as Jesus is the Messiah, there is no forgiveness of sins without Him, and so on. I have a hard time believing that anyone who doesn’t interpret 2 Thessalonians 2:4 the only one true way doesn’t have the Holy Spirit working in their lives, or that the Holy Spirit only teaches “all things” to some believers but not others.

 

[marks]

How can we know if we are using spiritual discernment or not?

It seems to me that a number of people mislabel "magical thinking" as "spiritual discernment".

The only way someone will know if their "spiritual discerment" is correct is if it is explicitly supported by the Word of God.

"This means that, and that means this" only carries authority if the Bible actually states it.

Much love!

 

[grafted branch]

It seems to me that a number of people mislabel "magical thinking" as "spiritual discernment".

The only way someone will know if their "spiritual discerment" is correct is if it is explicitly supported by the Word of God.

"This means that, and that means this" only carries authority if the Bible actually states it.

Much love!

Yea, that’s probably the key thing, it has to be explicitly stated in the Bible, like Jesus is the Messiah.

John 20:31 But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Well, I don’t want to get into that debate but those who believe in a 70AD coming do back it up with scripture that says things like “last hour” and “I am coming soon”. I know you have an interpretation that explains why those phrases were used and why there was still approximately 2,000 years and counting till His coming, and you also use scripture but only one interpretation can be correct.

Uh huh.

If it comes down to what the Holy Spirit has revealed to us and we have two different interpretations on the deep things of God, then someone doesn’t have the Holy Spirit revealing things to them while they themselves are convinced otherwise. Satan comes as an angel of light so I guess we should conclude that’s what’s going on.

Yep.

Or, we could say what the deep things the Holy Spirit reveals is those things that all believers have in common, such as Jesus is the Messiah, there is no forgiveness of sins without Him, and so on.

Even the natural man can understand those simple things. I don't think that's what Paul is talking about in 1 Corinthians 2:9-16. If you look at 1 Corinthian 3 you can see that Paul figuratively differentiates between milk and solid food. I would relate the deep things of God to the solid food that Paul indicated represents things that even babes in Christ (immature Christians) are not yet able to understand.

I have a hard time believing that anyone who doesn’t interpret 2 Thessalonians 2:4 the only one true way doesn’t have the Holy Spirit working in their lives,

Where did I ever say that? Nowhere.

or that the Holy Spirit only teaches “all things” to some believers but not others.

Didn't say that, either. Since you obviously don't understand my point in bringing up spiritual discernment, it's best to not bother continuing this discussion.

 

[grafted branch]

Where did I ever say that? Nowhere.

Right, you didn’t say that and I don’t believe that either. Would you then say each of the Amil, Premil, and Preterist views of 2 Thessalonians 2 are taught by the Holy Spirit, even though each of the views don’t agree with each other?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Right, you didn’t say that and I don’t believe that either.

So, why did you say "I have a hard time believing that anyone who doesn’t interpret 2 Thessalonians 2:4 the only one true way doesn’t have the Holy Spirit working in their lives" to me then?

Would you then say each of the Amil, Premil, and Preterist views of 2 Thessalonians 2 are taught by the Holy Spirit, even though each of the views don’t agree with each other?

No, of course not. Not all of those views can be true. The Holy Spirit would never contradict Himself.

 

[TribulationSigns]

In the John 2:18-21 the following is stated: -

​

John 2:18-21: - 18 On account of this, the Jews demanded, “What sign can You show us to prove Your authority to do these things?”​

​

19 Jesus answered, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up again.”​

​

20 “This temple took forty-six years to build,” the Jews replied, “and You are going to raise it up in three days?”​

​

21 But Jesus was speaking about the temple of His body. 22 After He was raised from the dead, His disciples remembered that He had said this. Then they believed the Scripture and the word that Jesus had spoken.​

In John 2:18-21. Christ was giving a sign to HIS PEOPLE, the Jews, they they will be the one who came and destroy the temple and the sanctuary (Christ), per Daniel 9:26. Christ rebuilt it and confirmed a covenant with New Testament congregation, the church. Nothing to do with 70AD, third temple in Israel, or 3,000 years in the future as you think.

Now the interesting questions that needs to be asked is, "Who will cause the Temple to be destroyed as spoken about in 2 Chronicles 7:19-22?": -

​

2 Chronicles 7:19-22: - 19 "But if you turn away and forsake the statutes and commandments I have set before you, and if you go off to serve and worship other gods, 20 then I will uproot Israel from the soil I have given them, and I will banish from My presence this temple I have sanctified for My Name. I will make it an object of scorn and ridicule among all the peoples.​

​

21 "And when this temple has become a heap of rubble, all who pass by it will be appalled and say, ‘Why has the LORD done such a thing to this land and to this temple?’ 22 And others will answer, ‘Because they have forsaken the LORD, the God of their fathers, who brought them out of the land of Egypt, and have embraced other gods, worshiping and serving them—because of this, He has brought all this disaster upon them.’”​

NKJV​

And "When will the temple become a heap of rubble as spoken about in 2 Chronicles 7:19-22?"

This fulfillment happened when the Kingdom of Judah fell into widespread idoltary and rebellion against God. The temple was destroyed by the armies of Nebuchadnezzar II during the Babylonian conquest of Jersualem. But note that the RESPONSIBILITY fell primarily on:

1.) The kings of Judah who promoted idolatry,
2.) false prophets and corrupt priests,
3.) and the people who followed pegan worship.

For example, some of the worst kings mentioned in Scirpture include:

• Manasseh
• Amon

And the true prophets repeatedly warned Judah before destruction came, including:

• Jeremiah
• Isaiah
• Ezekiel

And the actual destruction of the temple is described in:

• 2nd Kings 25
• 2nd Chronicles 36
• Jeremiah 52

The answer to the first question, Is the people of the nation of Israel, led by the Temple's High Priests, Priests, Scribes as Pharisees.

? What first question?

And the answer to the second question as recorded in the Historical record is 70 AD.

Nope. Nothing to do with 70AD. You wish but this is not what God talked about.

My next question is, if the temple is destroyed around 40 years later, then Christ was not literally talking about the temple of His body being destroyed, and being raised again three days after His crucifixion, when He was resurrected three days later, which is the traditional understanding given for this passage of John.

Chuckle, go talk with the Preterists and some confused amillennialists on this. I do not support 70AD theory.

If Jesus was saying that after the temple was destroyed by the Israelites in 70 AD, that in three days, He would raise it up again. The people who requested by what authority Jesus had cleansed the temple were astounded when they heard Jesus say that He would rebuild the temple within three days, but Jesus' time frame to rebuild the temple was in the distant future around 3,000 plus years into the future, when He will cause the righteous Saints to assemble together to form the temple to worship with Christ, God on the refurbished earth.

3,000 plus years? LOL. Nope this is not what Christ was referring to at all. Unless you have the chapter and verse that supports your 3,000 years nonsense.

Tribulation Signs, I would suggest that you have not meditated long enough on the John 2:18-22 verse to fully understand what Jesus had actually stated.

I would suggest that you look yourself in the mirror and repeat what you said. :)

 

[Jay Ross]

I would suggest that you look yourself in the mirror and repeat what you say to yourself. :)

Tat Tat

 

[grafted branch]

So, why did you say "I have a hard time believing that anyone who doesn’t interpret 2 Thessalonians 2:4 the only one true way doesn’t have the Holy Spirit working in their lives" to me then?

Because that’s my personal belief, I (grafted branch) have a hard time believing that anyone who doesn’t interpret 2 Thessalonians 2:4 the only one true way doesn’t have the Holy Spirit working in their lives.

No, of course not. Not all of those views can be true. The Holy Spirit would never contradict Himself.

Ok, I agree. I haven’t heard anyone on this forum claim they believe the Bible says something that they know the Holy Spirit doesn’t.

Here’s what we can observe about ourselves, we all have the Holy Spirit in our lives, and we all think the Holy Spirit is teaching us, and we all come to different interpretations. I would say that the Holy Spirit Himself doesn’t teach how to determine when our interpretations come from Him, else we would all agree on the entire Bible as we would abandon all interpretations that didn’t come from Him.

If you agree so far then anyone claiming their view is correct because the Holy Spirit taught them that view, that person making that statement is ignoring the observation I just cited above and, well, I personally tend to be highly skeptical of that person’s views.