The Conundrum of Zechariah Ch. 14

[Davy]

What I'm trying to show you is that Zechariah 12-14 was set in that day in the first century.

These three chapters talk about the literal city and the Holy City the new Jerusalem the church. That how the three chapters make sense.

It talks about the events of 70AD and also the protection of the church who escaped when God opened up a symbolic valley for them to escape before the great siege by Rome the great army made up of many nations.

That's why the three chapter speak of Jerusalem being destroyed and also safely protected in the same text.

That's why it keeps stating "in that day" and keeps bringing up events of the first advent.

Nope. What you are doing is 'overlaying' a bunch of doctrines of men on top of that Zechariah 14 Chapter instead of reading and heeding it as written with common sense. Those ideas you infer are obviously a design by those who do not want the congregation to understand that Zechariah 14 Chapter is about Jesus' future SECOND COMING, back to the spot on earth where He ascended to Heaven from. You might as well take an axe and chop your Bible up in little pieces because of the way your doctrine has made void The Word of God.

 

[Earburner]

Wherein dwelleth righteousness can simply mean every single thing is dealt with fairly and righteously. It could mean no more crooked courts , crooked judges, crooked cops, crooked lawyers, so on and so on. And if anyone steps over the line during the millennium, it would mean they are dealt with in a righteous manner.

Even if I ditched the millennium after the 2nd coming idea, I still wouldn't interpret Zechariah 14 any differently. It would just mean things I currently take to be involving an era of time with a beginning and an end, I would simply apply them to all eternity instead. Of course though I can't see some things in Zechariah 14 involving all of eternity.. For example, verses 17-19 and maybe verses 6-7..

Therefore, it makes no sense for me to change my position on the millennium to begin with. Because now I have created a real problem concerning the text. Now I have verses 17-19 meaning all throughout eternity and maybe verses 6-7 as well, which would be absurd to take those verses to be meaning all throughout eternity. But it wouldn't be nor is absurd to take verses 8-11 to be meaning throughout all of eternity. Actually, that is what I already take them to mean. Except per my view verses 8-11 are not fulfilled unto the 7th trumpet has been fulfilled. I already laid out some of my reasoning as to why in other posts. Don't recall offhand which posts, though.

Because you worship the literal words of the Bible, you might not understand that which comes from the Holy Spirit (the mind of Christ-1 Cor. 2).

You probably have NEVER entertained the thought that the words: "wherein dwelleth righteousness", has nothing to do with this literal earth or our own human form of righteousness, but rather God's Righteousness of Himself, being 100% relative OF WHERE He is now permanently DWELLING.

Here is that scripture, that shall help you to understand WHERE IT IS that God's Righteousness DOES NOW DWELL, and shall continue to do so FOREVER:

2 Corinthians 4:7
But we have this treasure IN EARTHEN vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

Did you know that most all of churchianity has no idea of WHAT or WHO the NEW Earth actually is??
Here is a clue:
2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is [now spiritually] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Galatians 6:15
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but [rather] a NEW creature.

 

[Davy]

Because you worship the literal words of the Bible, you might not understand that which comes from the Holy Spirit (the mind of Christ-1 Cor. 2).

You probably have NEVER entertained the thought that the words: "wherein dwelleth righteousness", has nothing to do with this literal earth or our own human form of righteousness, but rather God's Righteousness of Himself, being 100% relative OF WHERE He is now permanently DWELLING.

Here is that scripture, that shall help you to understand WHERE IT IS that God's Righteousness DOES NOW DWELL, and shall continue to do so FOREVER:

2 Corinthians 4:7
But we have this treasure IN EARTHEN vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

Did you know that most all of churchianity has no idea of WHAT or WHO the NEW Earth actually is??
Here is a clue:
2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is [now spiritually] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Galatians 6:15
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but [rather] a NEW creature.

THAT is PAGANISM DOCTRINE (Pantheism), because it negates that The Father has a form, or outward likeness, when the very first Bible Chapter, Genesis 1:26-27 declares God created man in HIS IMAGE LIKENESS, which means outward form, shape, etc.

It is the PAGANS who err in thinking that God is just some 'force' that exists in everything, and has no Entity or outward appearance of Himself. No, The Father has the image of man, just like our outward image. That image of man originates... from God's OWN Image Likeness in the Heavenly! He created the angels with that image of man also.

 

[Davidpt]

What I'm trying to show you is that Zechariah 12-14 was set in that day in the first century.

These three chapters talk about the literal city and the Holy City the new Jerusalem the church. That how the three chapters make sense.

It talks about the events of 70AD and also the protection of the church who escaped when God opened up a symbolic valley for them to escape before the great siege by Rome the great army made up of many nations.

That's why the three chapter speak of Jerusalem being destroyed and also safely protected in the same text.

That's why it keeps stating "in that day" and keeps bringing up events of the first advent.

You still don't get it. Not because you are unable to get it, but because you refuse to get it. 'In that day' can span several millennia. "In that day' is clearly meaning an era of time no matter how you look at it. It might be like someone giving the history of the USA from the 1700s through now, and then using 'in that day' throughout, but not providing any dates, etc. Anyone that would know the history of the USA and when the present time is in view, thus 'in that day', no one, and I mean no one, would remotely be thinking the 1700s are in view.

You are, seriously, trapped within a vacuum mindset, as is anyone else in this thread that insists 'in that day' can only be meaning the first century. Which then ignores context and defies common sense. What is the point of being intelligent if one doesn't even have good common sense to go along with it?

Some of you only want to be right even when you are clearly wrong, thus not be reasonable instead. Some of you, all you seem to care about is winning the argument, at any cost. Even it means throwing context and common sense out the window in order to do so. The analogy I used in the first paragraph, what is it about it that defies common sense?

Pride and doctrinal bias' are 2 of the main reasons why some of you are in limbo stuck in a vacuum mindset concerning Zechariah 14 and refuse to listen to reason. There is nowhere, and I mean nowhere, in all of Zechariah 14 that is involving events taking place in the first century, period. The exact same way per the analogy I used pertaining to the history of the USA from the 1700s through now. When the present time is in view, thus 'in that day', there is nowhere, and I mean nowhere, in all of that 'in that day' that is involving events taking place in the 1700s, period.


To demonstrate my analogy Chatgpt put the following together for me:

In That Day: Prophetic Scroll

• In that day, the people rose against distant rulers, fought for freedom, and endured great suffering to secure a new beginning.
  
• In that day, laws were established and the land expanded, while hearts were divided in conflict that left lasting scars.
  
• In that day, machines and smoke filled the towns, strangers came from far lands, and hunger swept the plains before hope returned.
  
• In that day, voices cried for justice, inventions and wonders connected the cities and nations, and the people faced storms that tested courage and unity.
  
• In that day, intelligence beyond human thought shaped life and work, energy flowed from sun and wind, space was reached beyond the sky, and the people wrestled with choices shaping the world for generations.

Timeline style visualization (era-by-era):

• Revolutionary era (1700s): The people rose against distant rulers, fought for freedom, and endured great suffering to secure a new beginning.
  
• Early nation-building (late 1700s–1800s): Laws were established and the land expanded, while hearts were divided in conflict that left lasting scars.
  
• Industrialization and immigration (1800s): Machines and smoke filled the towns, strangers came from far lands, and hunger swept the plains before hope returned.
  
• Modernization & 20th century challenges: Voices cried for justice, inventions and wonders connected the cities and nations, and the people faced storms that tested courage and unity.
  
• Present day (2026): Intelligence beyond human thought shaped life and work, energy flowed from sun and wind, space was reached beyond the sky, and the people wrestled with choices shaping the world for generations

As can be seen, no one would think, for example, in the day involving the latter(2026) is instead involving the former(1700s). Now simply apply the same logic throughout Zechariah 12-14. It's that simple. Zechariah 12-14 is not stuck in limbo in the first century. There is progression. The same way the USA was not stuck in limbo in the 1700s. There was progression, obviously,. And BTW, Chatgpt said my analogy was solid. Which means it found no holes in my analogy, which means it saw no need to debunk my analogy, that my analogy fit the point I'm trying to make via it perfectly..

 

[Earburner]

You don't understand about that other realm of Spirit.

That's not your problem. Your problem is 'your' fake Hollywood fleshy interpretation of the written Scripture.

God The Father, God The Son, and God The Holy Spirit, are separate expression of the One Godhead of three Persons. The Father did not die on the cross, The Son did. The Holy Spirit was not present with the Apostles during Christ's Ministry, still yet to be given. Old Testament Scripture shows The Father and The Son appearing separately in the Heavenly. Isaiah 9:6 calls The Son, "The mighty God", "The everlasting Father". The Son was never created; all things were created through The Son; The Son is the "express image of His person"; The Father ALSO HAS an outward Image likeness of man (Gen.1:26-27).

Before material creation came into existence, there was only the realm of Spirit, the Heavenly. God showed in Ezekiel 28 how the devil originally was created perfect in his ways, his job being to guard God's Throne. That was in the previous world, before the time of Adam and Eve, i.e., before... flesh creation of man.

There's so much... you just don't understand because of your fleshy carnal reasoning.

I am glad that you have finally addressed what I am saying. So then, I will repost your reply here and answer you directly:

You don't understand about that other realm of Spirit.

The other realm of Spirit??? What do you mean by that?

That's not your problem. Your problem is 'your' fake Hollywood fleshy interpretation of the written Scripture.

Becareful, you just might be blasphemous against God's Holy Spirit within me!!

God The Father, God The Son, and God The Holy Spirit, are separate expression of the One Godhead of three Persons.

Agreed! God the Father, and God the Son together....Are together the Holy Spirit of God.

The Father did not die on the cross, The Son did.

Agreed! That is why Jesus cried unto Him with the words: ".....why hast THOU forsaken me?"

The Holy Spirit was not present with the Apostles during Christ's Ministry, still yet to be given.

Who did you think God Father was/is??? Jesus said that God the Father was a Spirit, and I agree with Him.

So then, didn't the Holy Spirit of God, the Father Himself, enter into Jesus upon His baptism? He most surely DID!!
Jesus attested to that fact:
John 14:10-11
Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father [is] in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

I agree with Jesus and not church-ianity's idea that God the Father created another entity of Himself. There is NO scripture to prove that.
Only Jesus was brought forth from Everlasting. God the Father has always been Everlasting.
In other words, BEFORE the world was, Jesus was brought forth FROM OUT OF God the Father Himself.
Prov. 8:22-31

Old Testament Scripture shows The Father and The Son appearing separately in the Heavenly. Isaiah 9:6 calls The Son, "The mighty God", "The everlasting Father". The Son was never created; all things were created through The Son; The Son is the "express image of His person";

I Agree and disagree, as to what is figurative as opposed to that which is literal.
Strong's Number - G5481
Greek: χαρακτήρ
Transliteration: charaktēr
Pronunciation: khar-ak-tar'
Definition: From the same as G5482; a graver (the tool or the person) that is (by implication) engraving ([character] the figure stamped that is an exact copy or [figuratively] representation): - express image.
KJV Usage: express image (1x).
Occurs: 1
In verses: 1

The Father ALSO HAS an outward Image likeness of man (Gen.1:26-27).

I Disagree! God the Father is a Spirit, and according to Jesus, NO MAN has ever seen His shape or heard His voice.

Before material creation came into existence, there was only the realm of Spirit, the Heavenly. God showed in Ezekiel 28 how the devil originally was created perfect in his ways, his job being to guard God's Throne.

Yes. Satan was created as a being of spirit only.

That was in the previous world, before the time of Adam and Eve, i.e., before... flesh creation of man.

Previous world?? No, the world of spirit creatures is a world unto itself, and is still existent today, and is not separate from this physical world. They see us, but we cannot see them, unless they are revealed to us.

Before Jesus' death and resurrection, Satan had free access to the throne of God, as it is shown in Job 1:6-12.
However, after Jesus death and resurrection, Satan and all the fallen angels are now PERMANENTLY BOUND (imprisoned) to this planet earth's surface, never to re-enter back into God's heaven again, nor can they re-enter ANYONE who has been "born again of God's Holy Spirit".

There's so much... you just don't understand because of your fleshy carnal reasoning.

I understand far more than you realize.
I understand that you can't see (perceive) beyond the literal written words of the Bible.
Your discernment is from that of "the wisdom of men" from church-ianity, and NOT BY the Holy Spirit of God, who dwells within you.

 

[Truth7t7]

Ref. my post #48.
And still you are not paying attention!!!
Again, please read what Dan. 9:25 actually says in the first part of that verse. Then, if you can, please tell us the approximate time of when the going forth of the commandment historically took place.
Your clue is in Ezra 1-3 and 6:14

Dan. 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from "the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem" unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

I disagree with your opinion, as was shown in post #69 the commandment to restore and build Jerusalem is "Future" unfulfilled

 

[Davidpt]

I disagree with your opinion, as was shown in post #69 the commandment to restore and build Jerusalem is "Future" unfulfilled

Which defies common sense. Which equals in your case, meaning only in regards to this, thus not meaning this universally, someone that is intelligent but lacking good common sense.

 

[Truth7t7]

So, you're basically saying that we should just assume that the feast of tabernacles will be observed in some unknowable way in the new heavens and new earth. And you think this is supposed to be a convincing explanation for what Zechariah 14:16-21 is about?

Read It Again, Simple, Clear, Easy To Understand, You Have No Answer Because It's "Unknown" To Man In The Flesh, Will You Continue To Troll

I'm asking you what it will look like in the new heaven and earth, you don't have an answer because it's a mystery that no man knows, same applies to observance of the feast of tabernacles in the new heaven and earth

 

[Truth7t7]

Which defies common sense. Which equals in your case, meaning only in regards to this, thus not meaning this universally, someone that is intelligent but lacking good common sense.

Your opinion and nothing more, the commandment, building of the wall and street are "Future" events unfulfilled

 

[Davidpt]

Your opinion and nothing more

An opinion that doesn't defy common sense, though.

 

[Marty fox]

You still don't get it. Not because you are unable to get it, but because you refuse to get it. 'In that day' can span several millennia. "In that day' is clearly meaning an era of time no matter how you look at it. It might be like someone giving the history of the USA from the 1700s through now, and then using 'in that day' throughout, but not providing any dates, etc. Anyone that would know the history of the USA and when the present time is in view, thus 'in that day', no one, and I mean no one, would remotely be thinking the 1700s are in view.

You are, seriously, trapped within a vacuum mindset, as is anyone else in this thread that insists 'in that day' can only be meaning the first century. Which then ignores context and defies common sense. What is the point of being intelligent if one doesn't even have good common sense to go along with it?

Some of you only want to be right even when you are clearly wrong, thus not be reasonable instead. Some of you, all you seem to care about is winning the argument, at any cost. Even it means throwing context and common sense out the window in order to do so. The analogy I used in the first paragraph, what is it about it that defies common sense?

Pride and doctrinal bias' are 2 of the main reasons why some of you are in limbo stuck in a vacuum mindset concerning Zechariah 14 and refuse to listen to reason. There is nowhere, and I mean nowhere, in all of Zechariah 14 that is involving events taking place in the first century, period. The exact same way per the analogy I used pertaining to the history of the USA from the 1700s through now. When the present time is in view, thus 'in that day', there is nowhere, and I mean nowhere, in all of that 'in that day' that is involving events taking place in the 1700s, period.


To demonstrate my analogy Chatgpt put the following together for me:

In That Day: Prophetic Scroll

• In that day, the people rose against distant rulers, fought for freedom, and endured great suffering to secure a new beginning.
• In that day, laws were established and the land expanded, while hearts were divided in conflict that left lasting scars.
• In that day, machines and smoke filled the towns, strangers came from far lands, and hunger swept the plains before hope returned.
• In that day, voices cried for justice, inventions and wonders connected the cities and nations, and the people faced storms that tested courage and unity.
• In that day, intelligence beyond human thought shaped life and work, energy flowed from sun and wind, space was reached beyond the sky, and the people wrestled with choices shaping the world for generations.

Timeline style visualization (era-by-era):

• Revolutionary era (1700s): The people rose against distant rulers, fought for freedom, and endured great suffering to secure a new beginning.
• Early nation-building (late 1700s–1800s): Laws were established and the land expanded, while hearts were divided in conflict that left lasting scars.
• Industrialization and immigration (1800s): Machines and smoke filled the towns, strangers came from far lands, and hunger swept the plains before hope returned.
• Modernization & 20th century challenges: Voices cried for justice, inventions and wonders connected the cities and nations, and the people faced storms that tested courage and unity.
• Present day (2026): Intelligence beyond human thought shaped life and work, energy flowed from sun and wind, space was reached beyond the sky, and the people wrestled with choices shaping the world for generations

As can be seen, no one would think, for example, in the day involving the latter(2026) is also involving the former(1700s). Now simply apply the same logic throughout Zechariah 12-14. It's that simple. Zechariah 12-14 is not stuck in limbo in the first century. There is progression. The same way the USA was not stuck in limbo in the 1700s. There was progression, obviously,. And BTW, Chatgpt said my analogy was solid. Which means it found no holes in my analogy, which means it saw no need to debunk my analogy, that my analogy fit the point I'm trying to make via it perfectly..

The history of the first century confirms my view

The shepherd was struck and the sheep scattered

They looked on Jesus when He was pierced and mourned

The Holy Spirit poured out and cleansed people from their sins

Jesus stood on the mount of olives

literal Jerusalem was besieged and taken captive

Spiritual Jerusalem was saved in 70AD

The Holy Sprit went to the world from Jerusalem though the deciples

 

[Earburner]

I disagree with your opinion, as was shown in post #69 the commandment to restore and build Jerusalem is "Future" unfulfilled

Please, you are now not even making sense with the order of time and the context by which God has brought about the TWO (past and present) manifestations of His Grace, through Jesus.

Firstly, is that of Jesus being the Lamb of God who taketh away the sin of the world.

Secondly, is that of Jesus sending to us through God the Father, the Gift of His Holy Spirit (John 14:23; Rev. 3:20), whereby since Pentecost, New Heavenly Jerusalem has been, and still is being safely inhabited.

Thirdly, is the The Lord of Glory, Jesus Himself, to Visibly return in flaming fire to physically Redeem His resurrected church of the Saints made Immortal, being ALL who are "born again" of the Holy Spirit, to BE WHERE He Himself IS.

 

[Truth7t7]

An opinion that doesn't defy common sense, though.

That's your opinion once again

 

[Truth7t7]

Please, you are now not even making sense with the order of time and the context by which God has brought about the TWO (past and present) manifestations of His Grace, through Jesus.

Firstly, is that of Jesus being the Lamb of God who taketh away the sin of the world.

Secondly, is that of Jesus sending to us through God the Father, the Gift of His Holy Spirit (John 14:23; Rev. 3:20), whereby since Pentecost, New Heavenly Jerusalem has been and still is being safely inhabited.

Thirdly, is the The Lord of Glory, Jesus Himself, to Visibly return in flaming fire to physically Redeem His resurrected church of the Saints Immortal, being ALL who are born again of the Holy Spirit, to BE WHERE He Himself IS.

I have responded to this same question/statement many times

I Disagree With Your Beliefs and teachings

 

[Truth7t7]

The Amillennialist doctrine is a design of 'men', and not from God. A believer on Amill has to dump many Bible Scriptures in order to believe it. You will discover this eventually, whether you like it or not.

Actually the very opposite of your words is true, you falsely believe and teach Jesus Is going to return and rule on this very earth in a Millennium, this is "100% False"

The future man proclaiming to be God Messiah to the Jews and Jesus returned in Jerusalem will be (The Man Of Sin/The Beast/The Antichrist) Beware!

Jesus will return in fire and final judgment dissolving this earth by fire (The End) 2 Peter 3:10-13

Jesus Is The Lord

 

[Earburner]

I have responded to this same question/statement many times

I Disagree With Your Beliefs and teachings

Of course you will disagree! To some degree, visible worldly church-ianity still rules your human mind.

You can deny truth all the day long, but You still can NOT disprove the FACT that God the Father HAD TO PERMANENTLY DWELL within His Spiritual/Immortal Son FIRST, IN ORDER FOR God the Father HIMSELF (a Spirit) TO PERMANENTLY take up residence WITHIN US!
TOGETHER, they ARE the Holy Spirit!!

All the dogma and religious doctrines about "God in three persons, blessed trinity" is nothing more than an empty mantra that proves and supports nothing!!
By believing in that mantra, it judges NO ONE unto eternal condemnation, nor does it Save anyone unto the uttermost for Eternity.

 

[Truth7t7]

You can deny truth all the day long, but You still can NOT disprove the FACT that God the Father HAD TO PERMANENTLY DWELL within His Spiritual/Immortal Son FIRST, IN ORDER FOR God the Father HIMSELF TO PERMANENTLY take up residence WITHIN US!
TOGETHER, they ARE the Holy Spirit!!

God the Father doesn't dwell within human believers, God the Holy Spirit does, I Disagree with your "Jehovah's Witness" false teaching, and your denial of the "Godhead" Father, Son, Holy Spirit, being separate known as the "Trinity"

I won't deviate from the topic at hand, there is a Triune Godhead, no further argument on this fact

 

[Davidpt]

Of course you will, to some degree, visible worldly church-ianity still rules your human mind.

You can deny truth all the day long, but You still can NOT disprove the FACT that God the Father HAD TO PERMANENTLY DWELL within His Spiritual/Immortal Son FIRST, IN ORDER FOR God the Father HIMSELF TO PERMANENTLY take up residence WITHIN US!
TOGETHER, they ARE the Holy Spirit!!

All the dogma and religious doctrines about "God in three persons, blessed trinity" is nothing more than an empty mantra that proves and supports nothing!!
By believing in that mantra, it judges NO ONE unto eternal condemnation, nor does it Save anyone unto the uttermost for Eternity.

It's mind blowing enough that there could be one being that has no beginning. I can't even comrehend how that is even possible to have always existed without a beginning. I don't question it, I just can't comprehend it. Imagine there then being 3 beings with no beginning. That's what has always perplexed me about the trinity. Yet the trinity is my position as well.

 

[Davidpt]

God the Father doesn't dwell within human believers, God the Holy Spirit does, I Disagree with your "Jehovah's Witness" false teaching, and your denial of the "Godhead" Father, Son, Holy Spirit, being separate known as the "Trinity"

I won't deviate from the topic at hand, there is a Triune Godhead, no further argument on this fact

Is he a JW? I thought all JWs were Premil, except he is Amil. JWs are a cult. You can't have some of them being Amil and some being Premil. That's not how religious cults operate.

 

[Truth7t7]

Is he a JW? I thought all JWs were Premil, except he is Amil. JWs are a cult. You can't have some of them being Amil and some being Premil. That's not how religious cults operate.

I didn't state "He" was a JW, his teaching in denial of the Godhead is found within the cult of the "Jehovahs Witnesses"