The Conundrum of Zechariah Ch. 14

[PeterAndroz]

What is your basis for believing that?

Do you believe the following verse will occur when what is described in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 occurs?

2 Thessalonians 1:10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.

I believe that the day when Jesus comes "to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe" will be the day that we are caught up to meet Him in the air and are then with Him forever, don't you?

Looking at 1 Thess 4:17
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Where does that verse teach how long THEM are in the clouds waiting for WE ?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Looking at 1 Thess 4:17
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Where does that verse teach how long THEM are in the clouds waiting for WE ?

It says that the resurrected dead in Christ will be caught up together with those who are alive and remain to meet the Lord in the air, so that implies that they are caught up together at the same time. Are you trying to claim that "we which are alive and remain" being caught up and the dead in Christ being caught up are two different events? If so, that is not what Paul is saying.

 

[PeterAndroz]

It says that the resurrected dead in Christ will be caught up together with those who are alive and remain to meet the Lord in the air, so that implies that they are caught up together at the same time. Are you trying to claim that "we which are alive and remain" being caught up and the dead in Christ being caught up are two different events? If so, that is not what Paul is saying.

1 Thess 4:17 says :-
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
To me it looks like WE are joining THEM in the clouds very quickly

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

1 Thess 4:17 says :-
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
To me it looks like WE are joining THEM in the clouds very quickly

I don't understand what you're trying to say. It's clear to me that Paul said the dead in Christ will first be resurrected and then right after that they, along with those who are alive and remain, will be caught up together at the same time to meet the Lord in the air.

 

[PeterAndroz]

I don't understand what you're trying to say. It's clear to me that Paul said the dead in Christ will first be resurrected and then right after that they, along with those who are alive and remain, will be caught up together at the same time to meet the Lord in the air.

Yes, that's also how I see it.
I don't see any significant time gap between 16 & 17.
1 Thess 4:16 ... and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
We then go and join them in the clouds
1 Thess 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds

 

[Truth7t7]

That's pretty much the doctrine of men called Amillennialism which wrongly believes on the day of Christ's future return God's new heavens and a new earth begins. No, only certain... changes happen on that "day of the Lord". You failed to address God's River of the Waters of Life written also in Ezekiel 47 which will issue out from the Millennial "sanctuary" ON EARTH when Jesus returns.

And is that River a literal River on the earth? You bet it is! That was revealed simply in the Genesis 2 Chapter as God's River flowed out of His Garden of Eden to feed four other rivers upon the earth, two of which still exist today, the Euphrates and the Tigris (Hiddekel).

The Tree of Life that will manifest on either side of that River, upon the earth, will be real too.

Silence "Why"?

Ezekiel Chapters 47-48 Is The Eternal Kingdom, "Dont Be Deceived"!​

Ezekiel Below Is (The Eternal Kingdom) Same River And Tree Of life, Same Fruit On The Tree, Same Leaves Of The Tree For Healing/Medicine, Same Gates Of New Jerusalem With The Names Of The 12 Tribes Of Israel

(The Eternal Kingdom)

Ezekiel 47:12KJV
12 And by the river upon the bank thereof, on this side and on that side, shall grow all trees for meat, whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed: it shall bring forth new fruit according to his months, because their waters they issued out of the sanctuary: and the fruit thereof shall be for meat, and the leaf thereof for medicine.

(The Eternal Kingdom)

Revelation 22:1-2KJV
1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

(The Eternal Kingdom)

Eternal "New Jerusalem"

Ezekiel 48:31KJV
31 And the gates of the city shall be after the names of the tribes of Israel: three gates northward; one gate of Reuben, one gate of Judah, one gate of Levi.

Revelation 21:12KJV
12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:

 

[Earburner]

What point are you intending to make by posting these verses as it relates to what I said?

I may be wrong, but It could be that he is relating to Jesus as He Himself is "The Truth", and for us, we are to know that we have received the Spirit of Christ (Rom. 8:9), as Jesus spoke of it in Rev. 3:20.

 

[Davy]

You will say that because you don't understand Isa. 55:8-9 and 1 Cor. 2:13.

Nah... you need to stick... to what the Zechariah 14 Chapter says as written. There is nothing... in that Zechariah 14 Chapter that is meant as spiritual allegory. It contains events some might find hard to believe, but that's nothing new for those type believers, they doubt many things written in God's Word, until they come true.

 

[Davy]

Ezekiel Below Is (The Eternal Kingdom) Same River And Tree Of life, Same Fruit On The Tree, Same Leaves Of The Tree For Healing/Medicine, Same Gates Of New Jerusalem With The Names Of The 12 Tribes Of Israel

The LORD left Bible Scripture like the following for those like myself who can easily understand that the wicked are NOT destroyed on the day of Christ's future return, which means NOT new heavens and new earth time yet.

Rev 22:14-15
14 Blessed are they that do His commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
KJV

That "tree of life" will manifest on earth with Christ's future 2nd coming. It also includes the return of God's River of Genesis 2, because that Tree of Life is watered by God's River which issues out from... Christ's Millennial SANCTUARY.

Do you not recall the following distinction between Christ's Millennial reign, and then the later new heavens and new earth timing, per the following?...

Rev 21:21-22
21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.
22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
KJV

The future Millennium reign by Lord Jesus and His elect involves the Millennial "sanctuary" of Ezekiel 47 from which God's River flows from that feeds the Tree of Life on earth. But in the later new heavens and a new earth, there will not be a sanctuary, or temple, for the full Godhead will return to earth (to include The Father).

 

[HeReigns]

There is NO CONUNDRUM with Zechariah 14 except by those who refuse to believe that the Daniel 9:27 symbolic "one week" (70th) has not been fulfilled yet today.


The events in Zechariah 14 parallel the events for the end all throughout the New Testament Books. In particular, the two angels that appeared to Christ's Apostles at the Mount of Olives revealed Lord Jesus will return in like manner as He was seen ascending to Heaven from that Mount of Olives. The Zechariah 14 Scripture completes that picture, because it says Jesus' feet will touch down on the Mount of Olives at His future return.

But what has men's doctrines done with how Jesus returns? A good portion of deceived brethren think they are going to be raptured to heaven off the earth to live in the clouds above the earth, when that ain't gonna' happen. It is not written. That idea happened because of Biblically illiterate men trying to preach when God didn't call those. They are almost totally ignorant of how Apostle Philip was "caught up" and relocated to another place ON EARTH after he had witnessed to the Ethiopian in the chariot.

When Lord Jesus returns on the "last trump", those of us still alive on earth will be suddenly 'changed', casting off our flesh body with our "spiritual body" revealed, and then "caught up" to Jesus and the asleep saints He brings with Him on His way to.................... the Mount of Olives on earth. That Zechariah 14 Chapter simply completes that picture. Apostle Paul did not show exactly where... Christ's Church will be brought to after being "caught up", but Zechariah 14 does show it.


So when one hears of Christ Jesus gathering His faithful Church to any other place besides the Mount of Olives on earth, then you know they are pushing doctrines of men, and not staying with the actual Bible Scripture.

Different people often seem to have different parts of the truth. I'm wondering if the Mount of Olive being split in two to provide a way of escape is allegorical and alluding to the way of escape spoken of here:

1Co 10:13
There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

That way of escape is through Christ.....His body was broken on the cross (and His side split with the spear), the veil in the temple was split in two, Abraham's dream of the sacrificed animals being split in two and the clay vessel (us) passing through them. Jesus laid down His will to the Father in Gethsemane, which is on the Mount of Olives, to do the Father's will and die on the cross (as we likewise are to die to ourselves). Jesus' feet touched the Mount of Olives often with His first coming, but He said His second coming will not be in such a way that we may say lo here He is, or there He is. Overcoming in a trail/temptation is through being wholly submitted to the Father's will and being dead to our will, as a living sacrifice.....we "escape" the temptation/trial by our spirit being translated into the heavenly realm, so to speak, experiencing it's joy, peace and rest, even while the physical and soul self is enduring the trial. And I keep in mind that we are comparing "spiritual with spiritual" in scripture.

So much of what was written in the old testament is depicting and pointing ahead to the first coming of Christ and the gospel, and fulfilled by it.

 

[Davy]

Different people often seem to have different parts of the truth. I'm wondering if the Mount of Olive being split in two to provide a way of escape is allegorical and alluding to the way of escape spoken of here:

1Co 10:13
There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

That way of escape is through Christ.....His body was broken on the cross (and His side split with the spear), the veil in the temple was split in two, Abraham's dream of the sacrificed animals being split in two and the clay vessel (us) passing through them. Jesus laid down His will to the Father in Gethsemane, which is on the Mount of Olives, to do the Father's will and die on the cross (as we likewise are to die to ourselves). Jesus' feet touched the Mount of Olives often with His first coming, but He said His second coming will not be in such a way that we may say lo here He is, or there He is. Overcoming in a trail/temptation is through being wholly submitted to the Father's will and being dead to our will, as a living sacrifice.....we "escape" the temptation/trial by our spirit being translated into the heavenly realm, so to speak, experiencing it's joy, peace and rest, even while the physical and soul self is enduring the trial. And I keep in mind that we are comparing "spiritual with spiritual" in scripture.

So much of what was written in the old testament is depicting and pointing ahead to the first coming of Christ and the gospel, and fulfilled by it.

No escape, but it won't harm those who might be there, except... the 7,000 of Revelation 11 that will be destroyed on that day of Christ's return. Remember, on Paul's "last trump", those of us still on earth are all 'changed' "at the twinkling of an eye" to our spiritual bodies. When Jesus returns, God's consuming fire is going to destroy man's works off this earth, but not literally the earth itself, and some earth changes will begin on that day, which is why Zechariah 14 then speaks of the living waters flowing from God's River having returned to earth.

What I'm pointing to is the world to come; it's going to be different than today's creation, changes are going to happen, but the new heavens and a new earth won't be yet, not until after Christ's 1,000 years reign over the unsaved nations.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The LORD left Bible Scripture like the following for those like myself who can easily understand that the wicked are NOT destroyed on the day of Christ's future return, which means NOT new heavens and new earth time yet.

Rev 22:14-15
14 Blessed are they that do His commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Those who are "without" (outside) the city are in the lake of fire at that point (Rev 20:15, Rev 21:8), not still running around on the earth.

 

[Earburner]

No problem. Just wanted to see if maybe I was missing something about what you believed. I knew you weren't pre-trib, but I wondered if you still somehow saw 1 Thess 4:14-17 and 1 Thess 5:2-3 as different events.

Please study and compare all three, and you will discover that "C" is the conclusion of "A+B", revealing that both events A+B are indeed SIMULTANEOUS.

A. 1 Thes. 4:14-17 plus
B. 1 Thes. 5:2-3 is the simultaneous event of- -
C. 2Thes. 1:7-10.
(In brief- A+B=C).

In line item "C", please notice the word when written two times.
A. 1 Thes. 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

B. 1 Thes. 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

C. 2 Thes. 1:7-10
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, WHEN the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
10 WHEN he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
(C= A+B)

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

A. 1 Thes. 4:14-17 plus
B. 1 Thes. 5:2-3 is the simultaneous event of- -
C. 2Thes. 1:7-10.
(In brief- A+B=C).

Please study and compare all three, and you will discover that "C" is the conclusion of "A+B", revealing that both events A+B are indeed SIMULTANEOUS.

Of course. I have made that same point to pre-tribs may times on this forum. I sometimes ask them if they think that 2 Thessalonians 1:10 describes something that will happen when we meet Jesus in the air because if they acknowledge that then they should see that Paul said that Jesus will take vengeance on unbelievers on that same day at that same time (2 Thess 1:7-9). So, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 shows that 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:3 is one event.

 

[Earburner]

Of course. I have made that same point to pre-tribs may times on this forum. I sometimes ask them if they think that 2 Thessalonians 1:10 describes something that will happen when we meet Jesus in the air because if they acknowledge that then they should see that Paul said that Jesus will take vengeance on unbelievers on that same day at that same time (2 Thess 1:7-9). So, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 shows that 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:3 is one event.

Yes, I agree that it is very simple, when one compares scriptures under the Spiritual guidance of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor. ch. 2), and NOT the denominational doctrines and teachings of church-ianity, or by one's own human mind of "the natural man".

 

[Davidpt]

Please study and compare all three, and you will discover that "C" is the conclusion of "A+B", revealing that both events A+B are indeed SIMULTANEOUS.

A. 1 Thes. 4:14-17 plus
B. 1 Thes. 5:2-3 is the simultaneous event of- -
C. 2Thes. 1:7-10.
(In brief- A+B=C).

In line item "C", please notice the word when written two times.
A. 1 Thes. 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

B. 1 Thes. 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

C. 2 Thes. 1:7-10
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, WHEN the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
10 WHEN he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
(C= A+B)

Speaking for myself, I fully agree. So likewise, since the topic of thread is Zechariah 14...

Please study and compare all three, and you will discover that "B + C" are simultaneous events of the Lord’s kingdom, but they are not true until "A" is no longer true, and that an era of time is required to fulfill B + C between A and the final completion in 1 Corinthians 15:28. This also demonstrates that the Millennium must follow the second coming, and cannot be occurring in the present age (Amillennial position is therefore inconsistent).

A. 2 Thessalonians 2:4 plus
B. Zechariah 14:8 is the simultaneous event of – -
C. Zechariah 14:9
(In brief – A occurs first; B + C are simultaneous once the condition of A is no longer true, forming an era of time prior to 1 Corinthians 15:28. This indicates a literal, future Millennium following Christ’s second coming.)



A. 2 Thessalonians 2:4
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

B. Zechariah 14:8
And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

C. Zechariah 14:9
And the LORD shall be king over all the earth; and there shall be one LORD, and His name one.

Interpretation: In light of Revelation 11:15 and the cessation of 2 Thessalonians 2:4’s condition, this verse is fulfilled when the kingdoms of the world become His. The simultaneity with Zechariah 14:8 occurs at this time, forming an era post-A but prior to 1 Corinthians 15:28.

(A is true first; B + C occur simultaneously, forming an era of time post-A but prior to 1 Corinthians 15:28, during which verse 8’s summer and winter cycles are fulfilled. This era demonstrates that the Millennium is literal and future, following Christ’s second coming, not present in the current age.)

 

[Davidpt]

Yes, I agree that it is very simple, when one compares scriptures under the Spiritual guidance of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor. ch. 2), and NOT the denominational doctrines and teachings of church-ianity, or by one's own human mind of "the natural man".

Let's see if you are being fair and reasonable or just cherry picking , though. IOW, do your take your own advice you give others when your own advice is handed back to from someone else? Let's see what you do or not do with my post I just submitted to you, post #96. After all, it is a blatant contradiction that Zechariah 14:9 is true while 2 Thessalonians 2:4 is true. Where I come from one + one does not = one, it equals two. And that Zechariah 14:9 demands one being, thus no opposition, not two beings, thus opposition.

And since Zechariah 14:8 involves in that day, and involves summer and winter, this tells us that verse 8 is not meaning post 1 Corinthians 15:28. And since verse 9 can't be true until 2 Thessalonians 2:4 is no longer true, and that verse 8 is meaning before 1 Corinthians 15:28. is fulfilled, this indicates an era of time is required to fulfill verse 8 and 9 that is post the fulfillment of 2 Thessalonians 2:4 but prior to the fulfillment of 1 Corinthians 15:28.

 

[Davidpt]

The LORD left Bible Scripture like the following for those like myself who can easily understand that the wicked are NOT destroyed on the day of Christ's future return, which means NOT new heavens and new earth time yet.

Rev 22:14-15
14 Blessed are they that do His commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
KJV

That "tree of life" will manifest on earth with Christ's future 2nd coming. It also includes the return of God's River of Genesis 2, because that Tree of Life is watered by God's River which issues out from... Christ's Millennial SANCTUARY.

Do you not recall the following distinction between Christ's Millennial reign, and then the later new heavens and new earth timing, per the following?...

Rev 21:21-22
21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.
22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
KJV

The future Millennium reign by Lord Jesus and His elect involves the Millennial "sanctuary" of Ezekiel 47 from which God's River flows from that feeds the Tree of Life on earth. But in the later new heavens and a new earth, there will not be a sanctuary, or temple, for the full Godhead will return to earth (to include The Father).

You are all over the place here. How is one to make any sense of some of this? You seem to be arguing for and against the NHNE at the same time, in relation to the millennium. I can't make sense out of what your position is.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

C. Zechariah 14:9
And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: WHEN he shall reign, and WHEN the kingdoms of this world are His, there shall be one LORD, and his name one.

Why are you changing the text of this verse? We can all just immediately dismiss your entire post because you are resorting to changing the text of scripture to try to make it fit your doctrine. With your dishonest, blatant changing of the text, you show that you have no credibility and can't be taken seriously.

 

[Davidpt]

Why are you changing the text of this verse? We can all just immediately dismiss your entire post because you are resorting to changing the text of scripture to try to make it fit your doctrine. With your dishonest, blatant changing of the text, you show that you have no credibility and can't be taken seriously.

Because of what I'm arguing. I'm arguing that Jesus becomes Lord over the earth when the kingdoms of the world become His(Revelation 11:15). It is Scriptue interpreting Scripture. Why would you have an issue with doing that? I'm not saying that Zech 14:9 records it in that manner. I'm saying, in light of Revelation 11:15 this is when verse 9 is fulfilled, since Rev 11:15 is obviously meaning after 2 Thessalonians 2:4 has run it's course, and that I'm arguing verse 9 can't be true until 2 Thess 2:4 is no longer true. Did you not ever play connect the dots when you were growing up?