Both Pretribbers and Preterists are clearly wrong that great tribulation begins with the DOTL.

[PinSeeker]

If you're referring to a literal raising of the flesh body...

I am, but that's a... problematic <smile> ...way of putting it. We were born in sin ~ in the flesh, which does not mean just that we were physical beings, but that we were born sinful ~ just like David and all the rest of humanity and were thus children of wrath (Ephesians 2:1-3) in our natural state, but we will not be raised in sin. When we are truly raised, body and all, at the end of the age, we will no longer be sinful... no longer of the flesh, but completely of God. Those of us who are even now in Christ, that is.

Eccl.12:5-7, 2 Cor.5, 1 Cor.15, are Biblical proofs that when our flesh body dies it is cast off and we will never need it anymore.

Right, in the sense that we are no longer slaves to sin now, and will be completely sinless when physically resurrected on Jesus's return. In this sense, we will then finally be totally read of "the flesh." But that does not mean we will not have material bodies. Yet again, God is making all things ~ including us... and our physical bodies ~ new. Jesus, when resurrected, was not a ghost. <smile> And as Paul says in Romans 6:5, "For if we have been united with (Christ) in a death like His, we shall certainly be united with Him in a resurrection like His."

That because Paul showed we each already have another body, one that is non-material eternal in the heavens from God. Paul called it the "spiritual body" and "image of the heavenly".

Our bodies, which will finally be made new, meaning without sin, and therefore completely spiritual in the sense of being of God, so yes, a spiritual body, but not a spiritual spirit... <smile> ...and yes, we will finally be completely conformed to the image of Christ.

It is a body type like the angels, not flesh.

Our bodies, which will finally be made new, meaning without sin, and therefore completely spiritual in the sense of being of God, so yes, a spiritual body (not a spiritual spirit)... <smile>

In order for the events written in Rev.20 about those still subject to the "second death", it has to mean the goats on the left hand that are still unsaved and without Christ.

And they are.

Rev.20 is pointing to whole nations of the unsaved in that time that will be deceived by Satan;

Disagree. There will be folks of every tongue, tribe, and nation saved during the thousand years, and there are, and there will be more before the end comes.

...the time Jesus called the "beginning of sorrows" is not the "great tribulation" time.

Agree; didn't say it was. I said merely that the "great tribulation time" will be a great ramping up of the sorrows, such as, like Jesus says, has never been seen before.

We right now are in the "beginning of sorrows"....

Well, yes, but not at the beginning of them anymore... <smile> ...and possibly very close, even from a human perspective, to the end of them.

...the END is not yet. The end He was pointing to is the "great tribulation" time.

I don't disagree, but in the sense that "the great tribulation time" will precede but bring on the end.

That "Prince of princes" is about Messiah, Jesus Christ. That "he shall also stand up" in the Hebrew means making a stand. That is pointing to the day of Christ's 2nd coming to destroy that false one at the end, with the brightness of Christ's coming. Thus that Dan.8 section about that "king" is definitely meant for the very end of this world.

Right; agree.

Grace and peace to you, David.

 

[Davy]

Well sure, Jesus's return will be sudden, and the final Judgment will ensue in short order. Yes, sudden destruction ~ but not in the sense of annihilation or ceasing to exist; not sure if that's what you mean here or not, but not in that sense ~ will most certainly come upon them, exactly as written, for sure.

I covered two points with that based on what Paul said in 1 Thess.5 from the Old Testament prophets. The "sudden destruction" event will be a surprise upon the deceived and wicked, and involves Christ's coming.

But the "Peace and safety" Paul mentioned is how the world will be just prior to that destruction with Jesus' coming. Rev.11 also gives us a hint about that time of peace and safety during the great tribulation time when God's "two witnesses" are killed left in the street, and it says the nations rejoice over their dead bodies, and will "make merry" (throw parties), and send each other gifts, because of how the "two witnesses" tormented them. In other words, back to their supposed peace and safety. And I feel sorry for anyone today who cannot see how Satan's host are moving all nations into that future Peace and safety with a "one world government", which will be the Rev.13 beast kingdom reigned over by Satan on earth.

Hmmmm... Okay, so this would be my position here: This time of great tribulation ~ this final conflict ~ will not affect anyone any differently in the respect that it will be terribly hard, terribly difficult, even for the elect. But that time will be cut short, for the sake of the elect, as Christ Himself says in Matthew 24:22 and Mark 13:20. But even during this time, the elect will have ~ as we do now ~ the Holy Spirit with us, and Jesus, just as He said He would be in Matthew 28:20, so we can take comfort in that, and endure to the end.

Yeah, pretty much. Jesus covered this in the Mark 13 Chapter about some of us being delivered up to give a Testimony for Christ by The Holy Spirit. In the Luke 21 version, Jesus said even the gainsayer won't be able to resist what The Holy Spirit will give some of us speak in that "hour." That event is actually what Peter was pointing to for the end involving the cloven tongue, per the Joel 2 Scripture he quoted. Peter was saying the cloven tongue of Pentecost was an example of that future event. Thus God is going to speak to the whole... world through those of us who will be delivered up to give that Testimony for Jesus Christ.

Hm. Not sure if you're saying some are more elect than other members of God's elect, but... I hope not. <smile>

Not directly, but that actually is true, and Jesus revealed it in His prayer of John 17 about two different groups of His servants, His Apostles which He said He 'sent' that are not of this world, and then those who would believe on Him through their word (preaching) by His Apostles. Then Jesus prayed that both groups would become... one, in Him and in The Father. So the phrase "very elect" in Matthew 24:24 is not a mistake with the emphasis in the Greek on 'very'. Also with what Jesus showed in Matt.22:14 that many are called, but few are chosen. Also with the many times He said something like, 'those with ears to hear', etc.

It's not about status, it's about God's calling and election. The "very elect" cannot fall away, ever, for Jesus already owns them, as they were given to Him by The Father Who owned them before (John 17, that's written there). But the called only, can... still fall away if they so choose. This is why Christ's Apostles spent so much time in their Epistles to the called only, warning them against falling away.

Hmmm. Well, Davy, I would say that's a misunderstanding of what Paul pointed to in 1 Corinthians 15, which I think is what you're referring to. Unless by "flesh body" you mean sinfulness, but I don't think that's what you mean. We will all be changed in the twinkling of an eye, yes, and we will change to the state that Adam and Eve were in at the time of their creation, before the Fall of Genesis 3. We ~ along with all creation ~ will then finally be made new, which is what God promises in Revelation 21:5.

By flesh body, I mean flesh body. Either at death of our flesh, or on that future 'change' on the "day of the Lord", we all will be done with these flesh bodies.

I suggest you study hard what Paul taught in the 2 Corinthians 5 Chapter about the difference between our flesh body and our other house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens from God. The old Jewish tradition that the soul is made up of material matter like flesh, trying to base it on Gen.2:7, is not what The New Testament reveals. Jesus in Matt.10:28 said to not fear those who can kill our flesh body, but not our soul. That means our 'soul' is NOT made of material matter, but of Spirit, like our 'spirit' is also not made up of material matter. Ecclesiastes 12:5-7 showed this distinction early on.

As for the state Adam and Eve were in prior to their sin, the potential... for sin was already present with their flesh. Satan's host do not like anyone showing how the flesh represents corruption per this present world time, to include even the time before Adam and Eve sinned. Yet Apostle Paul, especially in the KJV Bible version, showed how the flesh is equal to corruption, and even called it a body of corruption...

1 Cor 15:50
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
KJV

You apparently have yet to understand about that matter, and are like the state Nicodemus was in. Jesus said that which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of The Spirit is spirit. In other words, the two are separate manifestations from two different sources. The flesh is made up the material matter of this world. But our spirit is made up of Spirit from the Heavenly realm. Flesh is not Spirit.

Ecclesiastes 12 gives even a bit more of a revelation about this, by mention of a "silver cord" that if loosed, flesh death happens, and the two parts return back to their respective sources. That reveals that invisible "silver cord" is what holds our spirit with soul attached inside our flesh shell body. This is actually Bible 101 stuff. That's why Jesus marveled at Nicodemus being a leader of Israel and not already knowing about it.

Others not so much; those who have passed on previous to Jesus's return will be reunited with their physical bodies also, in having been resurrected to judgment, along with those resurrected to eternal life. But they will not be changed in the above sense, and will be on the wrong side of the final Judgment... and will then enter into eternal punishment, into the second death.

The "second death" is not about a death of the flesh body. It is only about death of one's spirit with soul. The 1st death is about death of our flesh body. This is why Satan and his angels, for which the future "lake of fire" perishing was created for, are only subject to the "second death", because they have no flesh bodies.

Sure. After the final Judgment, the marriage supper of the Lamb and the ushering in of God's Kingdom in its fullness... the new heaven and new earth. Sure.

After the final judgment of Rev.20, and... the perishing at the "second death" of the wicked, death, and Hades, yes. But study the Isaiah 25 section about the supper that will happen after the change at the twinkling of an eye, with death swallowed up in victory.

God is the consuming fire. All of creation will be finally made new, in the manner described above. He will purify it, once and for all.

Just as with Peter's previous two world earth age examples, God is only going to cleanse the surface of this earth again. His creation will not be removed, but renewed. Those who keep trying to claim He is going to completely destroy this earth turning it into some kind of asteroid belt to start from point zero is not what His Word is pointing to.

Ps 78:69
69 And He built His sanctuary like high palaces, like the earth which He hath established for ever.
KJV

Hmmm, well, if you are not premillennial, and not futurist, in your eschatological understanding, then that's good. But it seems to me from our past conversations that you are a futurist, and a lot of what you've said here seems to confirm that.

I'm detecting a tone change... <chuckles>

Grace and peace to you, Davy.

I bother to study enough of men's theories to know what they are about, but I do not use them as believable references over what God's written Word says. Thus they are irrelevant to those who are determined to stay... in God's Word, and let the chips fall where they may. I've been accused of holding to many seminary labels from men; and anyone who sticks with God's written Word will be categorized like that too. No matter, those men only play games with earth other, and show forgetfulness as to what is really important, i.e., what God says, and not what man says.

 

[Davy]

This was not addressed to me, but I'm speaking to this anyway... <smile>

So, okay. No, not exactly. <smile> How can there be a lake, which is a body of water, made up of fire? On its face, if taken absolutely, woodenly literally, those two things cannot co-exist or be the same thing. Water (enough of it, anyway) extinguishes fire, and a fire cannot burn while wet with water. So, I encourage you, Davy, to think of it as a very shocking image ~ that's what it is meant to be ~ in the light that those who are "thrown into it" ~ having been found to be on the wrong side of the final Judgment, the Great White Throne judgment of Revelation 20, executed by Christ Himself ~ being then absolutely immersed in, even consumed in, God's judgment. God is, by His own assertion, this consuming fire (Deuteronomy 4:24, 9:3;, Hebrews 10:27, 29).


This is true, except for the word 'future' regarding the "thousand years" reign. <smile> Jesus is our King. Right now. He reigns. On the throne of David, who in a lesser sense pointed to the Greater David, Jesus, in His place of power, at the right hand of God, over Greater Israel, which is inclusive of all Jews and Gentiles called by God.

Grace and peace to you, Davy.

Don't know how that got crossed up, as I only followed the Post Reply buttons.

 

[PinSeeker]

I covered two points with that based on what Paul said in 1 Thess.5 from the Old Testament prophets. The "sudden destruction" event will be a surprise upon the deceived and wicked, and involves Christ's coming.

Hmmm, yes, but I say the "sudden destruction" will come upon Satan at the time of Christ's coming, and then upon the deceived and wicked upon the final Judgment. And the suddenness will be in the sense that, well, as in Noah's day, the "deceived and wicked," "...in those days before the flood were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man."

But the "Peace and safety" Paul mentioned is how the world will be just prior to that destruction with Jesus' coming.

Disagree. Although... I mean, we cannot fully appreciate it, but we have peace and safety always, because we are in Christ, Who is with us to the end, just as He said He would be in Matthew 28:20, and we have the Holy Spirit, Who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of God's glory (Ephesians 1:14), and we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to His purpose... those whom He foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, in order that He might be the firstborn among many brothers, (a)nd those whom He predestined He also called, and those whom He called He also justified, and those whom He justified He also glorified (Romans 8:28-30). Even now, Davy, Christ Jesus is the Firstborn of the dead, and the Ruler of kings on earth (Revelation 1:5).

Rev.11 also gives us a hint about that time of peace and safety during the great tribulation time when God's "two witnesses" are killed left in the street, and it says the nations rejoice over their dead bodies, and will "make merry" (throw parties), and send each other gifts, because of how the "two witnesses" tormented them. In other words, back to their supposed peace and safety.

Well, we talked about this... <chuckles> The time of peace and safety ~ of the absence of all sin and sinfulness ~ after all tribulation and after the final Judgment. And... for a long time ~ in the context of John's Revelation, specifically Revelation 11 ~ we have been and are a torment... from their perspective, of course... to those who dwell on the earth... to the unrepentant. Not that we have been intentionally or literally tormenting them, but we have been and are.

And I feel sorry for anyone today who cannot see how Satan's host are moving all nations into that future Peace and safety with a "one world government", which will be the Rev.13 beast kingdom reigned over by Satan on earth.

Ugh. <smile> Goodness gracious. I mean here is an example of what I have talked about before, of seeing a strict chronological sequence of events that... just is not the case. Revelation 12 starts a retelling, a second vision, from a different perspective, of the same time period ~ the entirety of the current age... it is the second of what are called cycles of judgment, of which there are seven, all from the time of Christ leading up to His return. In this particular one, we see the coming of Christ in Revelation 12, particularly in the birth of the male child, Who is to rule all the nations... This cycle runs through Revelation 14:20 with the harvest. The return of Christ, the final defeat of Satan, the final Judgment, and the new heaven and new earth are not in view in this particular cycle, in this vision, but understood at the end of this cycle to be very, very imminent; we don't actually see these things until the sixth (Revelation 19:11-21) and seventh (Revelation 20:1-21:8) cycles/visions.

By flesh body, I mean flesh body.

Yes, I know. <smile>

You apparently have yet to understand about that matter, and are like the state Nicodemus was in...

Many seem to be, but me no... We must be born again of the Spirit to see the kingdom of God. Which, hopefully we're on the same page there...

Jesus said that which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of The Spirit is spirit.

Do you think you are not yet born of the Spirit, Davy? If you don't, surely you would understand what Paul is saying to us in Ephesians 2:4-10... No?

The flesh is made up the material matter of this world.

This is just not what it means to be "in the flesh," as Paul speaks of it. Yes, we are physically flesh and bone, but in the context of Paul and other Biblical writers, being "in the flesh" is a very different thing... it is the opposite of being "in the Spirit," which I think we agree on, but it has nothing to do with our physical, material being... other than, one way or the other, in our physical, material being, is our spiritual state., either dead in our sin and thus children of wrath or born again of the Spirit and thus in Christ and children of the living God.

The "second death" is not about a death of the flesh body.

I agree... <smile> But the persons who do go into this second death, will go, body and spirit, into... <shudder> And it is an absolute death, but not a cessation of existence (which I know you're not arguing for, but still...)

It is only about death of one's spirit with soul.

Yeah, disagree.

The 1st death is about death of our flesh body.

Right, sure...

God is only going to cleanse the surface of this earth again...

Right, but I think we differ a bit on what this cleansing is...

His creation will not be removed, but renewed.

Right; agree. Made new, meaning all sin removed, and creation fully and completely restored to its original "very good" state. But not new things made... God will not make new things; there is no need. <smile>

Those who keep trying to claim He is going to completely destroy this earth turning it into some kind of asteroid belt to start from point zero is not what His Word is pointing to.

Agree...

I bother to study enough of men's theories to know what they are about, but I do not use them as believable references over what God's written Word says.

Again, I think all of us here would certainly say that about ourselves... <smile>

Thus they are irrelevant to those who are determined to stay... in God's Word, and let the chips fall where they may. I've been accused of holding to many seminary labels from men; and anyone who sticks with God's written Word will be categorized like that too. No matter, those men only play games with earth other, and show forgetfulness as to what is really important, i.e., what God says, and not what man says.

Spoken as a man who... thinks he knows and is absolutely right about everything... <chuckles>

Don't know how that got crossed up, as I only followed the Post Reply buttons.

It didn't. You replied to SI, but I... intervened... <chuckles>

Grace and peace!

 

[Behold]

DOTL = day of the Lord.

The DOTL

The DOTL is not including the born again (Body of Christ), because they are "not appointed unto the day of wrath" that we can read about in 2 Thess 1:8-9.
And why are they not "appointed to it"? Its because its for UNBELIEVERS, only.

Reader, God's WRATH was "poured out" on Jesus, so that its not poured out on THE CHURCH......the BORN again, "
the REDEEMED by the BLOOD OF THE LAMB"
See that BLOOD?........That is JESUS taking God's WRATH against our SIN so that we don't have to ..........

Welcome to : SALVATION..........Its a "GIFT" from God given to EVERY BELIEVER.<<<<<.

So then how does the CHURCH, the Body of Christ, escape this coming day of WRATH against "all those who do not OBEY THE GOSPEL"...... (all who don't believe)??????

By not being here when it happens..........= The Rapture.

 

[PinSeeker]

The DOTL is not including the born again (Body of Christ), because they are "not appointed unto the day of wrath" that we can read about in 2 Thess 1:8-9.
And why are they not "appointed to it"? Its because its for UNBELIEVERS, only.

So, how does the CHURCH, the Body of Christ, escape this ?

By not being here when it happens..........= The Rapture.

We who are in Christ wait for the revealing of our Lord Jesus Christ, Who will sustain us to the end, guiltless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. Right, we are "not appointed unto the day of wrath," which is to say we will not experience it, or be subjected to it. But it is surely not to say that we won't be there. We will all be judged according to what we have done, as Paul says in Romans 2:6-8...

"He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, He will give eternal life; but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury."

Yes, the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven and return, with his mighty angels, in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus; they will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, when he comes on that day," just as 2 Thessalonians 8-10 says. But we in Christ will certainly be there. We will be on Jesus's right (Matthew 25), who having done good will have been resurrected to the resurrection of life (John 5:29)... We will be in the congregation of the righteous (Psalm 1) and will see (but not experience, of course) God's wrath poured out in the final Judgment on those "appointed unto the day of wrath," when they are judged... negatively... and sent away into eternal punishment... this is the way that phrase "appointed unto the day of wrath," should be understood. We are not appointed to wrath, for sure, but appointed to eternal life, in the exact same sense as in Acts 13:48 ("as many as were appointed to eternal life believed"). But we will all be there... And we will stay here... and see the new heaven and the new earth, and enter into it... when those appointed to wrath depart... Paul even says we will be there in that very passage in 2 Thessalonians, verse 10, to be precise, where he says Jesus will come on that day "to be glorified in His saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed."

Grace and peace.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Not directly, but that actually is true, and Jesus revealed it in His prayer of John 17 about two different groups of His servants, His Apostles which He said He 'sent' that are not of this world, and then those who would believe on Him through their word (preaching) by His Apostles. Then Jesus prayed that both groups would become... one, in Him and in The Father. So the phrase "very elect" in Matthew 24:24 is not a mistake with the emphasis in the Greek on 'very'. Also with what Jesus showed in Matt.22:14 that many are called, but few are chosen. Also with the many times He said something like, 'those with ears to hear', etc.

It's not about status, it's about God's calling and election. The "very elect" cannot fall away, ever, for Jesus already owns them, as they were given to Him by The Father Who owned them before (John 17, that's written there). But the called only, can... still fall away if they so choose. This is why Christ's Apostles spent so much time in their Epistles to the called only, warning them against falling away.

Only the KJV translates it as "the very elect" and I'm not sure why because there is no Greek word there that means "the very" or "very". They translated the Greek word "kai" as "the very" for some reason, but it's never translated as "the very" or "very" any of the other 9,000+ times that it is used in the NT. I just looked at several other translations and they all just say "the elect" or "the chosen" or something similar rather than "the very elect" because it's referring to all of the elect and not just certain elect people.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The DOTL is not including the born again (Body of Christ), because they are "not appointed unto the day of wrath" that we can read about in 2 Thess 1:8-9.
And why are they not "appointed to it"? Its because its for UNBELIEVERS, only.

So, how does the CHURCH, the Body of Christ, escape this ?

By not being here when it happens..........= The Rapture.

Read the verse which follows 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9.

2 Thessalonians 1:7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.

Paul indicated that on the same day that Christ comes and His wrath comes down on unbelievers, He also comes "to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe" which is a clear reference to what will happen when we all are caught up to meet Him in the air. So, it's wrong to say that the DOTL does not involve those who are born again. The passage above shows that 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:3 refers to one event (the DOTL, second coming of Christ). The rapture occurs first, then right after that Jesus will take vengeance on the unbelievers on the earth with "sudden destruction" from which "they shall not escape" (1 Thess 5:2-3). Their claims of "peace and safety" will be proven to be false at that point.

 

[KUWN]

You need to do more reading and pay attention. PreTribbers do NOT believer that the great Trib begins with the dotl. The great Trib is a reference to the final 3 1/2 years of the Trib.

 

[William Barton]

The rapture is noted in John 14:23, 1Corinthians 15:51-53,

IMO the rapture is noted in John 14:2-3, 1Corinthians 15:51-53, 1Thessalonians 4:15-17, Revelation 11:12. (two witnesses caught up), Revelation 14:16 (Jesus on cloud catching up believers).

 

[Davy]

Hmmm, yes, but I say the "sudden destruction" will come upon Satan at the time of Christ's coming, and then upon the deceived and wicked upon the final Judgment. And the suddenness will be in the sense that, well, as in Noah's day, the "deceived and wicked," "...in those days before the flood were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man."

The "sudden destruction" comes upon Satan and his host also, but does not destroy him yet. It will simply destroy his role as the "false prophet" and the beast king. He will then be locked in his pit prison for the "thousand years" of Christ's future reign, which I am sure you are familiar with per Rev.20.

The "day of the Lord" events per the Old Testament prophets is what Paul's "sudden destruction" is about. In Isaiah 24 God uses an analogy of that day of destruction like turning a bottle upside down with its contents gushing out. In Isaiah 29 God uses the idea of it happening "at an instant suddenly", which is what Paul was pulling from about the change at the twinkling of an eye on the last trump.

Disagree. Although... I mean, we cannot fully appreciate it, but we have peace and safety always, because we are in Christ, Who is with us to the end, just as He said He would be in Matthew 28:20, and we have the Holy Spirit, Who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of God's glory (Ephesians 1:14), and we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to His purpose... those whom He foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, in order that He might be the firstborn among many brothers, (a)nd those whom He predestined He also called, and those whom He called He also justified, and those whom He justified He also glorified (Romans 8:28-30). Even now, Davy, Christ Jesus is the Firstborn of the dead, and the Ruler of kings on earth (Revelation 1:5).

Once again, Paul in 1 Thess.5 with that "Peace and safety" idea he is pulling from the Old Testament prophets like Isaiah about the time just prior to the "sudden destruction." That has to be great tribulation time, just prior to the "day of the Lord" with Jesus' coming.

Lord Jesus confirms that too with what He showed in Matthew 24:6 about the 'end' being about a time when all wars have stopped. The opposite of wars and rumors of wars is a time of peace.

Well, we talked about this... <chuckles> The time of peace and safety ~ of the absence of all sin and sinfulness ~ after all tribulation and after the final Judgment. And... for a long time ~ in the context of John's Revelation, specifically Revelation 11 ~ we have been and are a torment... from their perspective, of course... to those who dwell on the earth... to the unrepentant. Not that we have been intentionally or literally tormenting them, but we have been and are.

I really don't know where in the world you are going with that idea. The "Peace and safety" Paul mentioned about the 'end' is said by the deceived, not Christ's elect. Christ's elect will not be deceived. Even Rev.13:4 asks who can make war with the beast. The one-world beast when Satan comes to power over all nations and peoples for 42 months will control all potential for making war, so no one will be able to go against it. We are even seeing an example of this today with Iran. We saw it with Iraq also, as 28 nations were involved in the Gulf War under authority of the U.N.

Ugh. <smile> Goodness gracious. I mean here is an example of what I have talked about before, of seeing a strict chronological sequence of events that... just is not the case. Revelation 12 starts a retelling, a second vision, from a different perspective, of the same time period ~ the entirety of the current age... it is the second of what are called cycles of judgment, of which there are seven, all from the time of Christ leading up to His return. In this particular one, we see the coming of Christ in Revelation 12, particularly in the birth of the male child, Who is to rule all the nations... This cycle runs through Revelation 14:20 with the harvest. The return of Christ, the final defeat of Satan, the final Judgment, and the new heaven and new earth are not in view in this particular cycle, in this vision, but understood at the end of this cycle to be very, very imminent; we don't actually see these things until the sixth (Revelation 19:11-21) and seventh (Revelation 20:1-21:8) cycles/visions.

I have known about the forming up of the "one world government" by globalists since the 1970's when few ever heard that term. And it is easy to know the United Nations organization was created for that very thing. Ex-FBI agent Cleon Skousen even said before the Soviets would agree to joining the United Nations its goal must be a "one world government." So I don't know where you've been to miss that reality.

Many seem to be, but me no... We must be born again of the Spirit to see the kingdom of God. Which, hopefully we're on the same page there...

Not sure we are, since you appear to believe in a fleshy resurrection.

Do you think you are not yet born of the Spirit, Davy? If you don't, surely you would understand what Paul is saying to us in Ephesians 2:4-10... No?

Yes I am already born of The Spirit. It happened before I was baptized in Christ too. And what's strange is that my mother ever since I was child knew beforehand that God had a plan for me in His service. She revealed it to me on her deathbed after I had gotten baptized. So I know I have a calling, but I will not claim to be a chosen one.

This is just not what it means to be "in the flesh," as Paul speaks of it.

Yes it is, if you heed what Paul taught in Romans 7 about the "law of sin".

Yes, we are physically flesh and bone, but in the context of Paul and other Biblical writers, being "in the flesh" is a very different thing... it is the opposite of being "in the Spirit," which I think we agree on, but it has nothing to do with our physical, material being... other than, one way or the other, in our physical, material being, is our spiritual state., either dead in our sin and thus children of wrath or born again of the Spirit and thus in Christ and children of the living God.

Of course there are ideas like 'following' our flesh, which is actually what you are talking about. But what I'm talking about, which Paul taught in Romans 7, is about how this present world of flesh represents corruption, which is why Paul assigned the "law of sin" to the flesh.

Now if you pay attention to 'age of reason' type philosophers who try to get around what Paul taught there, it will only add to confusion about what this present world is about, and the difference with the world to come.

 

[Davy]

Only the KJV translates it as "the very elect" and I'm not sure why because there is no Greek word there that means "the very" or "very". They translated the Greek word "kai" as "the very" for some reason, but it's never translated as "the very" or "very" any of the other 9,000+ times that it is used in the NT. I just looked at several other translations and they all just say "the elect" or "the chosen" or something similar rather than "the very elect" because it's referring to all of the elect and not just certain elect people.

That Greek 'kai' there can be applied to mean 'very'...

NT:2532
kai (kahee); apparently, a primary particle, having a copulative and sometimes also a cumulative force; and, also, even, so then, too, etc.; often used in connection (or composition) with other particles or small words:

KJV - and, also, both, but, even, for, if, or, so, that, then, therefore, when, yet.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006, 2010 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

Also, there exists enough Bible Scripture elsewhere (other than John 17) that makes the distinction between Christ's chosen elect vs. the called only.

 

[Marilyn C]

DOTL = day of the Lord.


Both Pretribbers and Preterists, and anyone else doing what they are wrongly doing, need to start paying closer attention to details and quit twisting the texts involved in order to get the DOTL to fit where it doesn't remotely fit. The DOTL does not fit at the beginning of great tribulation. It fits after great tribulation proved by all of the following. And there is even more passages than the following that proves it except I'm not going to list every single passage that might prove it.

Amos 5:18 Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light.
19 As if a man did flee from a lion, and a bear met him; or went into the house, and leaned his hand on the wall, and a serpent bit him.
20 Shall not the day of the LORD be darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it?

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

What I have underlined in verse 29 also depicts darkness, and that we are told the time of this darkness does not precede the beginning of great tribulation, it immediately follows great tribulation.

Revelation 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

What I have underlined in verse 12 and 13 also depicts darkness, and is obviously referring to the same time period and events Matthew 24:29 is.

Isaiah 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

The DOTL involves both wrath and fierce anger.

Revelation 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


And so does this involve wrath. And that you can't have wrath without fierce anger. The text indicates that the great day of his wrath is come, and not, His great day of wrath already came earlier before the time of the 6th seal. That is a contradiction if it is not until the time of the 6th seal that His great day of wrath has initially come.



Something else I would like to point out. The first trumpet is not meaning chronologically sometime later following the events recorded in the 6th seal. It is not logical that the first trumpet can follow after the 6th seal since the 5th seal must precede the 6th seal, and that the 5th seal, for example, meaning this---a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled(Revelation 6:11)---is involving the time of the 6th trumpet(Revelation 11:2,7, Revelation 13:5,7,15)

And that Revelation 6:17 is involving the era of time and events that Revelation 11:15,18 is involving.

Therefore, How can trumpet 1 follow the 5th and 6th seal when the 5th seal is involving the 6th trumpet, and that the 6th seal is involving the 7th trumpet? Since when does the number 6 and number 7 precede the number 1 rather than follows it?

IOW, trumpet 1 comes before trumpet 6 and 7. Seriously, who could be that bad at math where they have 6 and 7 meaning before 1 rather than after 1? Nobody, right? Once again, the fact the 6th trumpet involves the 5th seal, the 7th trumpet involves the 6th seal, clearly tells any objective person not placing their doctrinal bias' above that of common sense, that this means that the first trumpet can't be meaning after the 5th and 6th seal in that case, since it causes a mathematical impossibility with the 7 trumpets if trumpet 6 and 7 correlate with seal 5 and 6.

Hi David,

You certainly have lots of good scriptures for the SPECIFIC Day of the Lord.

However, in the Hebrew and Greek the word for Day has 2 meanings - a specific day AND a period of time. Both are shown in God`s word.

Joel 2 and Zeph. 1 are some of the scriptures showing the day of the Lord as a period of time.

 

[MatthewG]

IMO the rapture is noted in John 14:2-3, 1Corinthians 15:51-53, 1Thessalonians 4:15-17, Revelation 11:12. (two witnesses caught up), Revelation 14:16 (Jesus on cloud catching up believers).

ok

i believe we all have our caught up to meet the lord when we die ironically.


That's the part that sucks the most for people - the point that all us die at some point or another.


Whether we die with Christ, be buried with Christ and rising again in Christ and live by the spirit of Christ rising with him.
Whether we pass on from this life.

 

[PinSeeker]

The "sudden destruction" comes upon Satan and his host also, but does not destroy him yet.

This seems like an immediately contradictory statement in and of itself. Sudden destruction comes upon Satan and his minions but does not destroy him yet? I mean... okay... not going to argue, but yeah, self-contradictory it is...

It will simply destroy his role as the "false prophet" and the beast king. He will then be locked in his pit prison for the "thousand years" of Christ's future reign, which I am sure you are familiar with per Rev.20.

Ugh. <smile> The end of the "thousand years" is what prompts Christ's return and final defeat of Satan, the final Judgment, and the new heaven and new earth. Yeah, we know we disagree starkly on this; no need to hash it out yet again...

I really don't know where in the world you are going with that idea.

Not "going" anywhere... and I mean that to speak to at least two or three things I can think of... <smile>

Christ's elect will not be deceived.

Agreed...

Even Rev.13:4 asks who can make war with the beast. The one-world beast when Satan comes to power over all nations and peoples for 42 months will control all potential for making war, so no one will be able to go against it. We are even seeing an example of this today with Iran. We saw it with Iraq also, as 28 nations were involved in the Gulf War under authority of the U.N.

I have known about the forming up of the "one world government" by globalists since the 1970's when few ever heard that term. And it is easy to know the United Nations organization was created for that very thing. Ex-FBI agent Cleon Skousen even said before the Soviets would agree to joining the United Nations its goal must be a "one world government." So I don't know where you've been to miss that reality.

Goodness gracious. <chuckles> I mean, I'm conservative in my politics, too, so I'm pretty much with you on globalism, but I'm not with ya on, you know, um, how far you take that... <chuckles>

Not sure we are, since you appear to believe in a fleshy resurrection.

We will be material, physical beings, if, as it seems, that's what you mean by "fleshly resurrection." Our resurrection will be just like Jesus's, as Paul said in Romans 6:5, as I said. When we are resurrected ~ yes, physically ~ "the Lord Jesus Christ... will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body..." (Philippians 3:21). As Jesus showed Mary Magdelene and His disciples... and Thomas in particular... after His resurrection in John 20, His body was very much material and physical, just as before His crucifixion and death. Yes, "we will be changed in the twinkling of the eye" (1 Corinthians 15:52), for sure, and as John says, "when He appears we shall be like Him, because we shall see Him as He is" (1 John 3:2).

Yes I am already born of The Spirit.

Fantastic.

It happened before I was baptized in Christ too.

Ah, well, your outward baptism. But your baptism by the Holy Spirit... <smile>

And what's strange is that my mother ever since I was child knew beforehand that God had a plan for me in His service.

Right, well this is His plan, in different forms, of course, for all Christians. But cool.

...I know I have a calling, but I will not claim to be a chosen one.

Right, but again, this is true ~ and takes different forms, of course; we all have different callings ~ for all Christians. But cool.

Yes it is, if you heed what Paul taught in Romans 7 about the "law of sin".

The "flesh" is used in two different contexts in the Bible. Even by Paul. And it's not hard to understand which is which from passage to passage. Yes, it seems we agree, at least on this one thing in Romans 7.

...what I'm talking about...

I know what you're talking about. I getcha.

Actually a pretty good conversation with you, for once... <chuckles> I keed! I keed! <smile>

Grace and peace to you, Davy.

 

[Behold]

We who are in Christ wait for the revealing of our Lord Jesus Christ, Who will sustain us to the end, guiltless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. Right, we are "not appointed unto the day of wrath," which is to say we will not experience it, but its surely not to say that we wont be there'...

You are playing both ends against the middle.
On one hand you are saying that the born again wont experience "Vengeance".... 2 Thess 1:8.......yet, you then say the born again will be here, and if you are here you are going to taste God's Wrath ...

So, You go ahead and stay here, as i wont be here, and neither will the born again bride of Christ. @PinSeeker .

 

[David in NJ]

You are playing both ends against the middle.
On one hand you are saying that the born again wont experience "Vengeance".... 2 Thess 1:8.......yet, you then say the born again will be here, and if you are here you are going to taste God's Wrath ...

So, You go ahead and stay here, as i wont be here, and neither will the born again bride of Christ. @PinSeeker .

You are here now and you and all 'pre-fibbers' will remain on the earth until:
a.) you die and your spirit rises back to God who gave it
b.) the LORD Jesus Christ 2nd Coming = BUT you still must WAIT until the Resurrection is complete

But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

15For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.
And the dead in Christ will rise first.

After that we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18Therefore comfort one another with these words.

Never choose ignorance over Truth

FYI we are in great tribulation now/today = it will only get worse as the Mark is just around the corner

 

[amigo de christo]

You are here now and you and all 'pre-fibbers' will remain on the earth until:
a.) you die and your spirit rises back to God who gave it
b.) the LORD Jesus Christ 2nd Coming = BUT you still must WAIT until the Resurrection is complete

But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

15For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.
And the dead in Christ will rise first.

After that we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18Therefore comfort one another with these words.

Never choose ignorance over Truth

FYI we are in great tribulation now/today = it will only get worse as the Mark is just around the corner

For the mystery of inquity DOES ALREADY WORK
only he who do so will do so TILL ...................................
Oh it was at work even in pauls days , even john made mention of that which be of anti christ and that there were m any anti christs
already at work in his day .
Tribulation has been as well . ONLY , as you wrote , ITS ABOUT TO BE LAUNCHED UP to a d egree
that if those days had not been shortened , NO FLESH would survive . but for the elects sake he has chosen
TO shorten those days .
This big mama HARLOT has not been at sleep either . MAMA HO has unleashed her ecumeincal Flo
by which all who do drink DOWN SHALL THEY GO . Her chambers be naught but death leading only to the second death .

 

[rebuilder 454]

You are playing both ends against the middle.
On one hand you are saying that the born again wont experience "Vengeance".... 2 Thess 1:8.......yet, you then say the born again will be here, and if you are here you are going to taste God's Wrath ...

So, You go ahead and stay here, as i wont be here, and neither will the born again bride of Christ. @PinSeeker .

Yes, he is coming for his bride. It is slightly ironic the ones that are waiting for the antichrist white horse rider will actually get their wish.

 

[amigo de christo]

You are here now and you and all 'pre-fibbers' will remain on the earth until:
a.) you die and your spirit rises back to God who gave it
b.) the LORD Jesus Christ 2nd Coming = BUT you still must WAIT until the Resurrection is complete

But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

15For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.
And the dead in Christ will rise first.

After that we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18Therefore comfort one another with these words.

Never choose ignorance over Truth

FYI we are in great tribulation now/today = it will only get worse as the Mark is just around the corner

Now lets notice paul would continue to expound ON THE DAY OF THE LORD and OF HIS COMING
and any guesses on what these wicked ones would be hollering
RIGHT BEFORE THEIR OWN SUDDEN DESTRUCTION .
IF ya said PEACE N SAFETY , why you gets a golden star.
AND so now let us look again at this ecumeincal intefaith interreligious diagloue .
LETS see what it preaches and what it says this merger can attain for the world .
IT preaches a lie of anti christ that says ALL religoins do serve the same GOD , THUS to beleive on JESUS has been denied by it ,
And it cliams this be the road to world PEACE and how we shall attain PEACE N SAFETY .
And digital square is ready to be enforced . And what can it do and what will run it .
AI , that can produce any speaking image will run it . And what does this system do
WHY it can shut anyone out from BUYING and SELLING .
And what can AI digital square do , WHY its everywhere of course
and it sure can HAVE ANYTHING said , typed or done, FLAGGED and sent to governeing authorities
And now a word , and it causes all who refuse the mark , the worship of thebeast , its image , TO BE KILLED .
WHY my goodness . THEY now have this capablity . And all are led to the lie of the merger of many anti christs .
IN other words , THE SIGNS OF THE TIMES are VERY CLEAR to the sheep . The sheep love the knowledge
in that bible of teh TRUTH . and believe you me , I never have seen things in revelation
coming to pass a peak point , LIKE WE SEES TODAY . yet the blind see only the trees and the sheep they see teh FOREST .