The Date of the Lord delivering Israel.

[PinSeeker]

...God has been dividing the light from the darkness--daily--from the beginning.

In the sense that He, "according to the purpose of His will, to the praise of His glorious grace," as Paul says in Ephesians 1:4-5, has called many "out of darkness and into His marvelous light," as Peter says in 1 Peter 2:9, yes. And,,, well, more specifically from the time of Adam's fall in the events of Genesis 3.

I do not think, but know.

Hmmm... <smile>

Since before the foundation of the world actually, but daily since the beginning all is made manifest (revealed), and personality, but each one in his own order.

<chuckles> As I said earlier, you're a very interesting person, Scott. You kind of... say a lot and nothing at the same time, it seems.

To what you say here, I think I would somewhat, at least, agree in the sense that from God's perspective ~ not ours ~ everything is now to Him, everything past, present and future, as He is outside of time... the Potentate of time, as the hymn goes. The linear time that we walk through is as much a part of His creation as, well, all of nature, physical and otherwise.

But from our perspective, inside of and part of God's creation (and thus within the construct of time), there will come an hour, as Jesus said, "when all who are in the tombs will hear His voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment." And then, in short order, the final Judgment, which Jesus graphically describes in Matthew 25:31-46, and John is shown in the vision given to him in Revelation 20:11-15. As Paul says in Romans 2 (quoting), "He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, He will give eternal life (and) for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury." Jesus Himself tells John in Revelation 22:12, "Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense with me, to repay each one for what he has done." This has not occurred yet, but surely will, at the end of the current age, as God has ordained it, even from, yes, before the foundation of the world.

Even so, though, yes, for sure He is "the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end" (Revelation 1:17, 2:8, and 22:13). And He is ~ since long, long ago and even now "making all things new," as He says in Revelation 21:5.

But you should consider: Which is greater...the actual event, or its revealing, the one being of God and in heaven, the other in and of this world?

Ugh. <smile> Which is greater...? Um, yes. <smile>

Grace and peace to you, Scott.

 

[ScottA]

<chuckles> As I said earlier, you're a very interesting person, Scott. You kind of... say a lot and nothing at the same time, it seems.

I have concisely connected the dots--all in one sentence...and you chuckle saying I have said a lot of nothing. The psychology of that is sooo telling. It would seem you don't even realize it.

 

[PinSeeker]

I have concisely connected the dots--all in one sentence...

Hmmm, well, maybe, but the sentence itself is a conflation of the "dots," really, which was my point.

and you chuckle saying I have said a lot of nothing.

Ah, no, what you have said is... ambiguous, in and of itself.

The psychology of that is sooo telling.

Hmmm... <chuckles>

It would seem you don't even realize it.

'Seem' ~ to you, of course ~ being the key word there... And I'll use the same word; you seem to "realize" some... strange things...

And going back to something you said earlier to me, about me giving you "attitude," which... I didn't... I'm getting some psychological vibes too, with regard to your frustration and anger, here.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[William Barton]

We call this the "second coming."

The Bible says, "The Lord will come suddenly to his temple." (Malachi 3:1).
No temple, no second coming.

Jesus said, "No one knows the day and the hour [of his return]... only the Father." (Matthew 24:42).

 

[PinSeeker]

We call this the "second coming."

The Bible says, "The Lord will come suddenly to his temple." (Malachi 3:1).

Right, and He ~ Jesus, of course ~ is the cornerstone (Psalm 118:22, Isaiah 28:16, Zechariah 10:4, Matthew 21:42, Mark 12:10, Luke 20:17, Acts 4:11, Ephesians 2:20, 1 Peter 2:6-7)

No temple, no second coming.

William, the temple God is building ~ of which God is the designer and builder ~ is a people, not a building, and we are that people. Just as God promised Abraham, long, long ago, and Abraham was even then in faith looking forward to (Hebrews 11:10).

Grace and peace to you.

 

[William Barton]

Right, and He ~ Jesus, of course ~ is the cornerstone (Psalm 118:22, Isaiah 28:16, Zechariah 10:4, Matthew 21:42, Mark 12:10, Luke 20:17, Acts 4:11, Ephesians 2:20, 1 Peter 2:6-7)


William, the temple God is building ~ of which God is the designer and builder ~ is a people, not a building, and we are that people. Just as God promised Abraham, long, long ago, and Abraham was even then in faith looking forward to (Hebrews 11:10).

Grace and peace to you.

PinSeeker explained:
<temple is a people>

Checkout Malachi 3:1, Zechariah 6:13.

Yes, metaphorically believers are a temple, because the Spirit of God dwells within them (1Corinthians 3:16-17). But Jesus is not going to come to a metaphor.

 

[ScottA]

To what you say here, I think I would somewhat, at least, agree in the sense that from God's perspective ~ not ours ~ everything is now to Him, everything past, present and future, as He is outside of time... the Potentate of time, as the hymn goes. The linear time that we walk through is as much a part of His creation as, well, all of nature, physical and otherwise.

But from our perspective, inside of and part of God's creation (and thus within the construct of time), there will come an hour, as Jesus said, "when all who are in the tombs will hear His voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment." And then, in short order, the final Judgment, which Jesus graphically describes in Matthew 25:31-46, and John is shown in the vision given to him in Revelation 20:11-15. As Paul says in Romans 2 (quoting), "He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, He will give eternal life (and) for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury." Jesus Himself tells John in Revelation 22:12, "Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense with me, to repay each one for what he has done." This has not occurred yet, but surely will, at the end of the current age, as God has ordained it, even from, yes, before the foundation of the world.

Even so, though, yes, for sure He is "the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end" (Revelation 1:17, 2:8, and 22:13). And He is ~ since long, long ago and even now "making all things new," as He says in Revelation 21:5.

Well, it is good that you have elaborated. But you are still thinking as men think, which is to say, by the terms of this world rather than those of the kingdom of God. Certainly, there is a perspective within this world that we must contend with and suffer through, but He does not say to endure to the end because this creation is to be given its own justification or even reality. New heavens and new earth, and this world and its elements being dissolved and passing away, ought to be enough for those of God to not even think of this world of time as good.

And you are missing the point, and the great reality of God, thinking that "This has not occurred yet, but surely will, at the end of the current age..."

You are assuming what God has meant by the end of the age. Which is the timeline approach of assuming everything is linear, as if God evolved around this world. Do you not see that as backwards? Which I ask rhetorically, but you should be examining your own perspective along those lines.

The point then--relative to the thread topic--is that worldly, linear approach to understanding "all truth"--not just according to this world--while the "all" part, is that many (almost all) things in scripture are not given or defined in that way.

With this one little example then--the end of the age--just as Jesus eluded to and even said to the thief on the cross--is "today!" Meaning it is personal, that just "as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive", each being one man--the end of the age for one, or for One--either way, is the end of his own age. Therefore, "today" is always correct, and "one day" or "someday" is only correct regarding each one individually that have yet come to that end. Which is the only thing that is "future" of all these matters. Did "all in Adam" come to the end the same day? Or did Christ come into "all in Christ" the same day? No, "but each one in his own order." --If you only just now understand this--you are 2,000 years behind when it was written!

What does that all mean? It means most have been looking at things all wrong, and their understanding of scripture is criminal even to be taught, and yet it has been. It means we all have only this lifetime until the end of the age--because after the clock stops for each of us, "but each one in his own order", time doesn't keep ticking--all is eternity.

 

[ScottA]

Hmmm, well, maybe, but the sentence itself is a conflation of the "dots," really, which was my point.

Yes, and you should get use to that way of thinking, because just as "all in Adam" have unfolded into all of us ever born, things are also "conflated" back "all in Christ."

 

[ScottA]

Ah, no, what you have said is... ambiguous, in and of itself.

And yet the truth is only different because it is correct and not to be taken any other way.

Sorry if that makes everything look like a minefield or a needle in a haystack...but God did that on purpose. We know of many failures to navigating it all, but knowing the difference is like recognizing when one is not crying wolf--it may sound true when it is not. That's the challenge and the brilliance of it! If it sounds true, everyone is likely to believe it. But if it sounds like “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day." Hmmm... <chuckles> What a "vibe"--that Guy! <more chuckles>

 

[PinSeeker]

...you are still thinking as men think...

Being men (and women), we all do that, you know, because we're men and women... <chuckles> ...unless there's something you're not telling us... <smile>

So you are too, but, um... really strange men... <chuckles> I'm... kidding... <smile>

...by the terms of this world rather than those of the kingdom of God.

Sometimes yes, sometimes no; it depends on the topic at hand and whose ~ or Whose ~ perspective is being discussed at that particular moment. The writers of the Bible ~ men, they are <chuckles> ~ do that, too... You know, except for direct quotes of God, Jesus, or other characters in the Bible... Even Jesus does this...

Certainly, there is a perspective within this world that we must contend with and suffer through, but He does not say to endure to the end because this creation is to be given its own justification or even reality. New heavens and new earth, and this world and its elements being dissolved and passing away, ought to be enough for those of God to not even think of this world of time as good.

And you are missing the point, and the great reality of God...

That's all I address, Scott, but still, the reality of things as they are (and will be) can be discussed from both a human standpoint and... yes, God's perspective, and ~ alternately, of course ~ I am doing both. You don't think so. Well, fair enough, but... we'll agree to disagree on that.

You are assuming what God has meant by the end of the age.

I'm not assuming anything. Or, if you want to say that, so are you. <smile>

Which is the timeline approach of assuming everything is linear, as if God evolved around this world.

I mean what you seem to be saying here, Scott, is that our perspective on things and God's are the same. Which is not the case, and I've been very clear on that. Yes, a common mistake... and it's hard not to do it sometimes... is to put God inside time.

The point then--relative to the thread topic--is that worldly, linear approach to understanding "all truth"--not just according to this world--while the "all" part, is that many (almost all) things in scripture are not given or defined in that way.

Again... sort of ~ sort of, at least ~ agree with you here... but we are inside linear time, which is as much a part of God's creation as we ourselves are.

With this one little example then--the end of the age--just as Jesus eluded...

The proper word to be used here is 'alluded'... Nobody is eluding... which would be to say dodging, actually... anything. <smile> And surely not Jesus... <smile>

to and even said to the thief on the cross--is "today!" Meaning it is personal, that just "as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive", each being one man--the end of the age for one, or for One--either way, is the end of his own age. Therefore, "today" is always correct, and "one day" or "someday" is only correct regarding each one individually that have yet come to that end. Which is the only thing that is "future" of all these matters. Did "all in Adam" come to the end the same day? Or did Christ come into "all in Christ" the same day? No, "but each one in his own order." --If you only just now understand this--you are 2,000 years behind when it was written!

What does that all mean? It means most have been looking at things all wrong, and their understanding of scripture is criminal even to be taught, and yet it has been. It means we all have only this lifetime until the end of the age--because after the clock stops for each of us, "but each one in his own order", time doesn't keep ticking--all is eternity.

Ugh...

Yes, and you should get use to that way of thinking...

God is not a god of confusion (which includes conflation).

...just as "all in Adam" have unfolded into all of us ever born, things are also "conflated" back "all in Christ."

Ugh. You know, I... think... I agree with you, here, but this is such a... well let's just say 'discombobulated'... way of putting it... It's not a conflation, by any means. Creation will be fully redeemed, and made new again (Revelation 21:5). God's plan from all eternity is to, through Christ, reconcile to Himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven (Colossians 1:19-20). To reconcile all things, Scott, is to remove any conflation or any ambiguity or duality or anything of the sort. If that's what you mean, yes.

And yet the truth is only different because it is correct and not to be taken any other way.

Sorry if that makes everything look like a minefield or a needle in a haystack...but God did that on purpose. We know of many failures to navigating it all, but knowing the difference is like recognizing when one is not crying wolf--it may sound true when it is not. That's the challenge and the brilliance of it! If it sounds true, everyone is likely to believe it. But if it sounds like “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day." Hmmm... <chuckles> What a "vibe"--that Guy! <more chuckles>

Okay yeah, enough is enough. Goodness gracious. Grace and peace to you, Scott.

 

[ScottA]

Being men (and women), we all do that, you know, because we're men and women... <chuckles> ...unless there's something you're not telling us... <smile>

So you are too, but, um... really strange men... <chuckles> I'm... kidding... <smile>

Sometimes yes, sometimes no; it depends on the topic at hand and whose ~ or Whose ~ perspective is being discussed at that particular moment. The writers of the Bible ~ men, they are <chuckles> ~ do that, too... You know, except for direct quotes of God, Jesus, or other characters in the Bible... Even Jesus does this...

That's all I address, Scott, but still, the reality of things as they are (and will be) can be discussed from both a human standpoint and... yes, God's perspective, and ~ alternately, of course ~ I am doing both. You don't think so. Well, fair enough, but... we'll agree to disagree on that.

I'm not assuming anything. Or, if you want to say that, so are you. <smile>

I mean what you seem to be saying here, Scott, is that our perspective on things and God's are the same. Which is not the case, and I've been very clear on that. Yes, a common mistake... and it's hard not to do it sometimes... is to put God inside time.

Again... sort of ~ sort of, at least ~ agree with you here... but we are inside linear time, which is as much a part of God's creation as we ourselves are.

The proper word to be used here is 'alluded'... Nobody is eluding... which would be to say dodging, actually... anything. <smile> And surely not Jesus... <smile>

Ugh...

God is not a god of confusion (which includes conflation).

Ugh. You know, I... think... I agree with you, here, but this is such a... well let's just say 'discombobulated'... way of putting it... It's not a conflation, by any means. Creation will be fully redeemed, and made new again (Revelation 21:5). God's plan from all eternity is to, through Christ, reconcile to Himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven (Colossians 1:19-20). To reconcile all things, Scott, is to remove any conflation or any ambiguity or duality or anything of the sort. If that's what you mean, yes.

Okay yeah, enough is enough. Goodness gracious. Grace and peace to you, Scott.

The reason things are discombobulated is an age old issue, the crux of the problem that we have also been experiencing here. Which many here have also experienced. So, I think it would be good if I at least offer a closing comment or summary.

The problem is one of communication, and it exists because we are trying to build a ship in a bottle so to speak. Or force a camel through the eye of a needle.

It's like the communication problems that exist between, say, teens and parents, or undergraduate and postgraduate, etc. But ours is not a matter of intellect or even age. In the theological realm there is an even greater level that exist between the student, leader, Pastor or Priest, Bishop, Pope, and as the scriptures show us, even Prophet or Apostle in some cases--and God. This issue was evident, for example, between the Prophets sent to Israel and the Leaders, and also between the Priests and Pharisees, and Jesus. It's not unlike the tough guy when he finds out there is someone bigger or tougher. Which ought not exist among children of God--except, biblically, like it or not--it does.

In the ship in a bottle analogy, the world is the bottle, and beyond is God who is revealing many things like building that ship that really is outside while the model is just a model in a bottle--which of course is more involved, and revealing every hidden thing. And it is important to keep that perspective--that we are foreigners in a foreign land just passing through--this is not, nor will it ever actually be our home.

But the riff of communication comes when God communicates that reality to people who only know this limited bottle-like existence and have not only learned to live accordingly, but even expect and insist that the terms and bounds of this world are the standard. They are not, nor, specifically considering these times, does taking that position help our being "guided unto all truth."

From my perspective, as one caught up to the third heaven and hearing words not then lawful to utter, then tasked by God to speak through the bottle neck things that are not always welcome in this model-building world--most of what I hear is model-based theories born out of model-based dialog. In other words, instead of getting a response like "Oh, great, I have read of God doing things like that--please tell us more", what typically happens instead is something like:

"Sooo...you think yer somekinda prophet or something? Well let me tell you what I read about and what it means here in the bottle!"​

"But, "a thousand years with the Lord is as a day..."​

"No, that's not how I read it, and how I read it is all I want to hear."​

"Okay...so be it. So shall it be written. By the [bottle] measure you use, so shall it be measured back to you."​

And that's the current state of things.

 

[PinSeeker]

The problem is one of communication…

Agreed. Along with a couple other things, but we can leave it at that, I think.

the riff of communication comes when God communicates that reality to people who only know this limited bottle-like existence…

From a human perspective, that’s sometimes true. But God’s Word never returns to Him void, or empty; it always accomplishes the purpose for which it is sent. He said so (through Isaiah, of course). <smile>

From my perspective, as one caught up to the third heaven and hearing words not then lawful to utter, then tasked by God to speak through the bottle neck things that are not always welcome in this model-building world--most of what I hear is model-based theories born out of model-based dialog. In other words, instead of getting a response like "Oh, great, I have read of God doing things like that--please tell us more", what typically happens instead is something like:

"Sooo...you think yer somekinda prophet or something? Well let me tell you what I read about and what it means here in the bottle!"​

"But, "a thousand years with the Lord is as a day..."​

"No, that's not how I read it, and how I read it is all I want to hear."​

"Okay...so be it. So shall it be written. By the [bottle] measure you use, so shall it be measured back to you."​

And that's the current state of things.

<chuckles> I respect your thoughts, Scott. Grace and peace to you.

 

[ScottA]

From a human perspective, that’s sometimes true. But God’s Word never returns to Him void, or empty; it always accomplishes the purpose for which it is sent. He said so (through Isaiah, of course). <smile>

If that was meant to as assurance to me--thank you. But it doesn't account for the response that God's own people often have or why it continues when the pattern is written and to be learned from as a warning.

 

[PinSeeker]

If that was meant to as assurance to me--thank you.

Not really, but I have no problem with you taking it that way. I mean, it should be an assurance to all of us. God's Word is filled with those... <smile>

But it doesn't account for the response that God's own people often have or why it continues when the pattern is written and to be learned from as a warning.

Hmmm... sounds to me like you just feel disrespected to some degree, which... yeah, I understand.

Grace and peace to you.