The Conundrum of Zechariah Ch. 14

[PeterAndroz]

I think we need to settle a dif question before tackling this one:

Can that same person blaspheme the HS?

Paul was a blasphemer yet forgiven c/- ignorance ??
1 Tim 1:13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.
...
How can we blaspheme the HS today ?
The ONLY unforgivable sin that I'm aware of today is hearing/understanding the saving gospel then rejecting it till death.
Your thoughts ?

 

[rwb]

Hi @rwb. How are you doing so far.

I thought I would explain my position on Revelation 7:13-15 now that you brought it up.

Revelation 7:13-15

"And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them."

The overall context of Revelation 7, as I understand it, concerns the sealing of ALL Israel—that is, all true believers from both the Old Testament and the New Testament. These are those who have overcome in Christ by faith and are the servants of God who reign with Him.

The great multitude described here consists of those who have endured great tribulation for the sake of Christ. This is not the tribulation of the cross itself, but the tribulation believers experience in a fallen world while remaining faithful to Him. It is called the "great tribulation" because of its vast scope and duration, extending from Adam and Eve until the last of God's elect is gathered in.

This is consistent with Christ's warnings in Matthew 24, where He foretold persecution, suffering, and tribulation that would come upon His people. Those who endure to the end would be saved. The Lord spoke of this reality long before John's vision in Revelation!

John 16:33

"These things I have spoken unto you, that in Me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world."

Because Christ overcame the world, believers overcome in Him. Christ contrasts the peace found in Him with the tribulation found in the world. He is not speaking of tribulation within the cross, but of the tribulation His people will encounter while living in the world regardless of when they lived in.

The context is clear. Christ specifically declares that His followers shall have tribulation in the world. This applies to ALL of the elect because, as followers of Christ, we stand in opposition to the world system as well as congregations. Yet we have no reason to fear, for Christ has already overcome.

Our victory over the tribulation of the world comes through His finished work on the cross. In other words, the cross is the means by which we overcome tribulation; the cross itself is not the tribulation being overcome. I believe that distinction is important.

Now What About the Great Tribulation of Matthew 24?​

Matthew 24:19-24

"(19) And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

(20) But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

(21) For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

(22) And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

(23) Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

(24) For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect."

I believe this "great tribulation" is part of the same larger Great Tribulation described in Revelation 7:14, but it refers specifically to its most intense and severe phase near the end.

During this period, false christs and false prophets will dominate the visible church and deceive multitudes through counterfeit gospels and doctrines. Spiritual deception will become so widespread that, if it were possible, even the elect would be deceived. And becasue of them, the church no longer do the great commission that make the world darker for the Elect to endure.

It will also be a time when the number of living elect on earth becomes increasingly small since there will be no more salvation for men after the sealing of all Elect, Revelation 7:1-4. The days must be shortened for the elect's sake, otherwise no flesh would be saved in order to be rapture out. Christ will intervene before that point is reached.

When He appears, He will gather those who are still "alive and remain" upon the Earth. Thus, the shortening of those days culminates in the appearing of Christ and the gathering of His people.

For that reason, I understand Matthew 24's Great Tribulation not as a separate tribulation from Revelation 7:14, but as the climactic and most intense portion of the same age-long tribulation that God's people have endured throughout history. The difference is not one of kind, but of degree. The final period will be unparalleled in its severity, deception, and opposition to the truth, yet it remains part of the same ongoing conflict between the Kingdom of Christ and the kingdom of this world.

Hope this helps!

Greetings TS, I am doing well, thank you for asking.

Your reply is very helpful because it confirms what I believe Christ was meaning when He says there would be great tribulation for faithful saints in this world. Christ was not speaking of great tribulation that would come against Israel that would bring an utter end to the Old Covenant means for worshipping God.

Also, I agree the cross was not great tribulation for the disciples that Christ spoke of. And great tribulation was not limited to faithful saints living only after the cross. Saying "then" shall be great tribulation" does not mean there was not great tribulation before the cross. Faithful saints throughout redemptive history have always endured great tribulation during their lifetimes. The first martyr for his faith was Abel whom Cain slew because Abel proved himself to be more righteous than he, "God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaks."

I believe Christ is emphasizing that with His coming to earth with the Kingdom of God, came also the New Covenant enacted through His sacrificial blood that would unleash the forces of evil upon the earth, the likes of which would result in a great number of martyrs for Christ. A number so great that no man could number those who remain faithful unto death.

Though the promise from Christ is that many faithful saints would be martyred, He also says that when great tribulation comes it would not endure forever but would be shortened for the sake of His elect who are faithfully building the spiritual Kingdom of God through the message of Christ; His Gospel must be preached unto every corner of the earth, then the end would come with Christ coming again.

Thanks again, and many blessings!

 

[rwb]

Yes we agree

Then do you also agree that great tribulation spoken by Christ to His disciples is not about 70 AD?

 

[Marty fox]

Then do you also agree that great tribulation spoken by Christ to His disciples is not about 70 AD?

No

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

and the "day of the Lord" happens AFTER the Rapture :)
You won't watch it though
..

The day of the Lord is the same day of the rapture (our being gathered and caught up to Christ).

2 Thessalonians 2:1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come.

 

[rwb]

No

Can you explain from the Bible how the destruction in 70 AD fits "such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be"? Mark writes that "those days of affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be", are not cut short for the sake of Israel, but for the sake of the elect "whom He hath chosen, He hath shortened the days".

Mark 13:17-20 (KJV) But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter. For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be. And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

Doesn't this help to confirm that "great tribulation" was a warning to the disciples of Christ, that they and we could know when we proclaim the Gospel of the Kingdom of God through Jesus Christ, we are engaged in waging spiritual warfare as we seek to be faithful unto Christ? This is not physical warfare as that which came against Israel in 70 AD, which there has been much greater physical destruction throughout all time.

NO! This is spiritual warfare against every force of evil that shall seek to prevent the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven from being complete as the Gospel of Christ is proclaimed through His faithful church. The FACT that great tribulation is spiritual and not physical since the advent of Christ coming to earth with the spiritual Kingdom of God is what makes it like nothing else that has ever come to the earth, and nothing like it shall ever be again once the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven is complete and Christ comes again.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Then do you also agree that great tribulation spoken by Christ to His disciples is not about 70 AD?

That has a different context than Revelation 7. That great tribulation spoken by Christ relates to God's wrath rather than trials and tribulation that believers go through. Compare Matthew 24:21 to Luke 21:23-24.

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Luke 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. 22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. 24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

The great tribulation Jesus spoke of was to occur "in Judaea". Jesus was saying what believers "in Judaea" would need to do in order to avoid the destruction and desolation of Jerusalem, as He referred to when He told them that the temple buildings were going to be destroyed. But, this only relates to the first question the disciples asked and the rest of the Olivet Discourse relates to their second question about His second coming and the end of the age.

Let me ask you this. Do you think that what happened in 70 AD was God's wrath against the unbelieving Jews because of having rejected Christ and foolishly trying to continue living under curse of the old covenant law instead of embracing the new covenant that Christ established with His blood to set people free from the curse of the law? If so, don't you think that would be prophesied somewhere in the Bible? Don't you think that Jesus would have had something to say about that?

 

[Marty fox]

In the Textus Receptus and other manuscripts the "the" is not present. I don't believe the text is speaking of a specific tribulation but great/bad tribulation people have gone through over time.

Yes, but in Revelation 7:14 its tied to the martyred saints and in the Olivet Discourse there is the wrath of God tribulation upon apostate Isreal in which the saints were spared

 

[Marty fox]

The Father. I would think it is Him in most of the OT examples you might be thinking of. But, I don't consider possible OT appearances of the one we call Jesus as an official coming because the bible only gives two, physical comings, as the only two (birth and when he comes "the second time"). The leaving and returning after the cross was not physical like the first and second coming which is why the NT does not place it as the second coming.

Why would you think the Father and not Jesus?

 

[rwb]

That has a different context than Revelation 7. That great tribulation spoken by Christ relates to God's wrath rather than trials and tribulation that believers go through. Compare Matthew 24:21 to Luke 21:23-24.

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Luke 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. 22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. 24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

The great tribulation Jesus spoke of was to occur "in Judaea". Jesus was saying what believers "in Judaea" would need to do in order to avoid the destruction and desolation of Jerusalem, as He referred to when He told them that the temple buildings were going to be destroyed. But, this only relates to the first question the disciples asked and the rest of the Olivet Discourse relates to their second question about His second coming and the end of the age.

Both Matthew and Luke record Jesus’s words from the Mount of Olives, but they do so in different ways and with different emphasis. In both the words of Jesus are directed to the Church of what shall be directed toward faithful saints as the Gospel of the Kingdom of God through Christ is being spiritually completed.

 

[Marty fox]

He has a face and another passage speaks of hands and back....Daniel also describes him sitting and holding a book he gives to the Son of man.

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.


This phrase is a figure of speech that simply means no one has fully understood or known God except Jesus and that's because Jesus is God's son.


Clarke:


It is likely that the word seen, here, is put for known, as in Joh_3:32; 1Jo_3:2, 1Jo_3:6, and 3Jo_1:11; and this sense the latter clause of the verse seems to require: - No man, how highly soever favored, hath fully known God, at any time, in any nation or age; the only begotten Son


Many people have seen God:

Gen 32:24 And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day.
Gen 32:25 And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him.
Gen 32:26 And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me.
Gen 32:27 And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob.
Gen 32:28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.
Gen 32:29 And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there.
Gen 32:30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

Here Jacob not only wrestles with God physically, he also was allowed to see His face and live.


1 Kings 22:19 And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left.

Exo 33:20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
Exo 33:21 And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:
Exo 33:22 And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:
Exo 33:23 And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.


Here we see that he does have a face, has a hand, and has "back parts" of a body. Moses was not allowed to see his face, but he saw his hand and saw his "back parts".

Exo 24:9 Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel:
Exo 24:10 And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness.
Exo 24:11 And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink.



Isa 6:5 And I said: “Woe is me! For I am lost; for I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips; for my eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts!”

Again, why can't some of these be Jesus as Jesus is also God

 

[Marty fox]

Don't know what version you're using but according to the Strong's Concordance linked to KJV "the" is NOT there. And in fact "the" great tribulation is found nowhere in KJV of the Bible.

Revelation 7:14 (KJV) And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

You're making an assumption that "the" is there to separate if from other great tribulations, can you show where Scripture speaks of "great tribulation(s)"? Because I find nowhere in the Strong's Concordance where "great tribulations" (plural) is found.

Its about context in Rev 7:14 the subjects are the saint from every nation and in the Matthew 24 the context is apostate Israel but verse 9 the context are the saints, they are separated

 

[rwb]

Its about context in Rev 7:14 the subjects are the saint from every nation and in the Matthew 24 the context is apostate Israel but verse 9 the context are the saints, they are separated

Yes, Rev 7:14 are saints who have endured "great tribulation" unto death! The Olivet Discourse is directed to the disciples of Christ throughout all ages and makes no mention of apostate Israel, other than to say Israel shall be thrown down and not one stone shall be left standing of the buildings and temple.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Both Matthew and Luke record Jesus’s words from the Mount of Olives, but they do so in different ways and with different emphasis. In both the words of Jesus are directed to the Church of what shall be directed toward faithful saints as the Gospel of the Kingdom of God through Christ is being spiritually completed.

Luke 21:23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. 24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Are you saying that you think the "great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people" resulting in people falling "by the edge of the sword" and being "led away captive into all nations" relates to faithful saints?

 

[3 Resurrections]

Let me ask you this. Do you think that what happened in 70 AD was God's wrath against the unbelieving Jews because of having rejected Christ and foolishly trying to continue living under curse of the old covenant law instead of embracing the new covenant that Christ established with His blood to set people free from the curse of the law? If so, don't you think that would be prophesied somewhere in the Bible? Don't you think that Jesus would have had something to say about that?

It was prophesied in the OT. Read the entire "song of Moses" in Deuteronomy 32:1-43, which gave all the details of how Israel's "latter end" would finish them as a people experiencing God's "vengeance".

This "song of Moses" was being sung in Revelation 15:3, just prior to all the seven plagues being poured out upon the earth against those who had shed the blood of the saints and prophets (which Christ said Old Jerusalem was guilty of in Matt. 23:29-37). Luke's description of the "great distress in the land and wrath upon THIS people" (the apostate Jews) would soon be coming to pass in AD 66-70.

 

[Marty fox]

Yes, Rev 7:14 are saints who have endured "great tribulation" unto death! The Olivet Discourse is directed to the disciples of Christ throughout all ages and makes no mention of apostate Israel, other than to say Israel shall be thrown down and not one stone shall be left standing of the buildings and temple.

The Olivet Discourse was a warning to the saints to flee the city before the destruction and a prediction of judgement upon Israel with a date attached to it proving that Jesus was God

 

[Marty fox]

Can you explain from the Bible how the destruction in 70 AD fits "such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be"? Mark writes that "those days of affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be", are not cut short for the sake of Israel, but for the sake of the elect "whom He hath chosen, He hath shortened the days".

Mark 13:17-20 (KJV) But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter. For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be. And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

Doesn't this help to confirm that "great tribulation" was a warning to the disciples of Christ, that they and we could know when we proclaim the Gospel of the Kingdom of God through Jesus Christ, we are engaged in waging spiritual warfare as we seek to be faithful unto Christ? This is not physical warfare as that which came against Israel in 70 AD, which there has been much greater physical destruction throughout all time.

NO! This is spiritual warfare against every force of evil that shall seek to prevent the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven from being complete as the Gospel of Christ is proclaimed through His faithful church. The FACT that great tribulation is spiritual and not physical since the advent of Christ coming to earth with the spiritual Kingdom of God is what makes it like nothing else that has ever come to the earth, and nothing like it shall ever be again once the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven is complete and Christ comes again.

Josephus the Jewish historian who was sanctioned by Cesar to record the Roman siege records how it was the most brutal time in history, not only due to the numbers that were killed but of the horrifying events that took place within the city. Eleven out of every twelve people were killed 1.1 million in total and only 97,000 survived.

It lasted for only five months and if the days were not cut short every person would of perished the days were cut short so that the elect would survive.

Jesus predicted this event and even added a time stamp to it within that generation, and He was proven true which proved that He was God. It was also the worst time ever to Isreal because they would lose their temple and the title of Gods people forever.

It was a warning for the saints to leave the city before the events took place and they did

 

[TribulationSigns]

Greetings TS, I am doing well, thank you for asking.

Your reply is very helpful because it confirms what I believe Christ was meaning when He says there would be great tribulation for faithful saints in this world. Christ was not speaking of great tribulation that would come against Israel that would bring an utter end to the Old Covenant means for worshipping God.

Also, I agree the cross was not great tribulation for the disciples that Christ spoke of. And great tribulation was not limited to faithful saints living only after the cross. Saying "then" shall be great tribulation" does not mean there was not great tribulation before the cross. Faithful saints throughout redemptive history have always endured great tribulation during their lifetimes. The first martyr for his faith was Abel whom Cain slew because Abel proved himself to be more righteous than he, "God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaks."

I believe Christ is emphasizing that with His coming to earth with the Kingdom of God, came also the New Covenant enacted through His sacrificial blood that would unleash the forces of evil upon the earth, the likes of which would result in a great number of martyrs for Christ. A number so great that no man could number those who remain faithful unto death.

Though the promise from Christ is that many faithful saints would be martyred, He also says that when great tribulation comes it would not endure forever but would be shortened for the sake of His elect who are faithfully building the spiritual Kingdom of God through the message of Christ; His Gospel must be preached unto every corner of the earth, then the end would come with Christ coming again.

Thanks again, and many blessings!

Correct! I believe we are in agreement on this point.

The Great Tribulation of Revelation 7 encompasses the entire history of God's faithful people, from Abel and the prophets of the Old Testament to the saints of the New Testament, continuing until the Second Coming of Christ. That is why the elder declares that this great multitude has come out of "great tribulation." He is not describing only a brief period at the end of history or 70AD/1st century nonsense, but the collective testimony of ALL the redeemed who overcame through faith in Christ.

I also believe the Living Waters spoken of in Zechariah 14 point to the work of Christ and the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. Those living waters flow toward the "former sea" and the "hinder sea," illustrating that the benefits of Christ's redemptive work extend both backward to the faithful saints of the Old Covenant and forward to the faithful saints of the New Covenant. Though separated by time, they are all part of one redeemed people and partake of the same salvation.

This is why the multitude in Revelation 7 is so vast. It includes all who have remained faithful to God throughout redemptive history and who have endured tribulation in this fallen world. The Great Tribulation of Matthew 24, in my view, is not a "different" tribulation, but the most intense and severe phase of that same ongoing tribulation. It is the climax of the age-long conflict between the Kingdom of Christ and the powers of darkness, culminating in the return of our Lord and the gathering of all His people unto Himself.

Thank you again for your thoughtful comments and encouragement. May the Lord continue to grant us wisdom as we search the Scriptures together.

Hope this understanding will benefits others.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Both Matthew and Luke record Jesus’s words from the Mount of Olives, but they do so in different ways and with different emphasis. In both the words of Jesus are directed to the Church of what shall be directed toward faithful saints as the Gospel of the Kingdom of God through Christ is being spiritually completed.

RWB, I will response to Spiritual Israelite ridiculous post here.

What SI is trying to do is to creates two different "great tribulations" where Scripture only speaks of one.

He is distinguishing between a great tribulation that believers endure and another great tribulation that is supposedly "God's wrath" upon Jerusalem. Yet Revelation 7:14 identifies those who ALL came out of "great tribulation" as the redeemed saints who washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb. The focus is clearly on God's people enduring and overcoming, not on the wicked experiencing divine judgment.

The Bible CLEARLY distinguishes between tribulation and wrath. Tribulation is what God's people suffer in the world. Wrath is what God pours out upon the ungodly. Jesus said, "In the world ye shall have tribulation" (John 16:33). He did not say believers would endure God's wrath. Conflating the two creates confusion in the text.

I also believe his interpretation is heavily dependent upon reading Matthew 24 and Luke 21 primarily through the lens of 70 AD. Big mistake! However, Christ's discourse extends far beyond the destruction of Jerusalem. The disciples asked about His coming and the end of the age, and Christ's answer culminates with the gathering of the elect, and His visible return in glory. Those events clearly did not occur in 70 AD.

Furthermore, I do not believe "Judaea" in the Olivet Discourse should be understood merely in a geographical sense. Throughout the New Testament, God's people are identified as the true circumcision, the true temple, and the true Israel of God. We are spiritual Jews in Christ, aren't we? Therefore our church all over the world is indeed spiritually Judaea! Spiritual discerned! Just as Old Testament Israel became apostate before the Cross, the New Testament visible church is warned repeatedly that a great falling away and widespread deception will occur before Christ returns.

Notice what dominates the context of Matthew 24: false christs, false prophets, deception, persecution, betrayal, and endurance. These are not descriptions of God's wrath being poured out on unbelieving Jews. These are warnings directed toward Christ's own people concerning what they will face before His coming.

The great tribulation of Matthew 24 and the great tribulation of Revelation 7 are NOT two separate events. Matthew 24 describes the tribulation from the perspective of those enduring it. Revelation 7 shows the victorious outcome—the innumerable multitude who came through it by faith.

The mistake, in my view, is beginning with Josephus and then interpreting Scripture through 70 AD. I would rather begin with Scripture and allow Scripture to interpret Scripture. When I do that, I see ONE Great Tribulation spanning the entire New Testament age, including the first century, intensifying and more severe during the "little season," near the end, and concluding with the visible return of Christ and the gathering of all His elect.

That is why the elder in Revelation does not speak of multiple great tribulations. He speaks of ONE: "These are they which came out of great tribulation." The same people Christ warned about in Matthew 24 are the same people John sees standing before the throne in Revelation 7.

If we follow his interpretation, we are forced into the strange conclusion that there are two separate "great tribulations"—one experienced by the saints throughout history and another supposedly limited to a small group of people living in first-century Judea. But where does Scripture ever make such a distinction? It does not.

In fact, Revelation 7 presents an innumerable multitude from every nation, kindred, people, and tongue—including a localized group from first-century Jerusalem. The Great Tribulation is as broad as the redeemed themselves. It encompasses all who have faithfully endured in Christ throughout redemptive history.

So no, I do not see any biblical basis for dividing the Great Tribulation into separate categories. The elder speaks of one Great Tribulation, Christ speaks of one Great Tribulation, and the redeemed who come out of it are one people of God. Scripture is remarkably consistent on this point. SI believes the local group of first century Jerusalem actually suffered TWO great tribulation if he also apply the great tribulation of Matthew 24 to them.

Such foolish interpretation.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Josephus the Jewish historian who was sanctioned by Cesar to record the Roman siege records how it was the most brutal time in history, not only due to the numbers that were killed but of the horrifying events that took place within the city. Eleven out of every twelve people were killed 1.1 million in total and only 97,000 survived.

It lasted for only five months and if the days were not cut short every person would of perished the days were cut short so that the elect would survive.

Jesus predicted this event and even added a time stamp to it within that generation, and He was proven true which proved that He was God. It was also the worst time ever to Isreal because they would lose their temple and the title of Gods people forever.

It was a warning for the saints to leave the city before the events took place and they did

Big mistake. I do NOT think Josephus can carry the weight that your interpretation places upon him.

@rwb's question was not whether the destruction of Jerusalem was terrible. It certainly was. My question was how 70 AD fulfills Christ's words that it would be a tribulation "such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."

Appealing to Josephus does not answer that question. Josephus was not an inspired prophet, apostle, or eyewitness chosen by God to interpret biblical prophecy. He was a Jewish historian writing decades later under Roman patronage. Scripture must interpret Scripture, not Josephus interpreting Scripture. Selah!

Furthermore, if we are speaking merely of physical death and suffering, how can 70 AD honestly be called the worst event in world history? Really? The Flood destroyed the entire world. The Assyrian and Babylonian invasions devastated nations. Countless wars, plagues, famines, and persecutions throughout history have killed many millions more people than died in Jerusalem. Even by a purely historical standard, the claim becomes difficult to sustain.

The problem is that Christ was NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT merely speaking about a local judgment upon first-century Jerusalem. The context of Matthew 24 moves beyond local events and focuses upon false christs, false prophets, worldwide deception, the gathering of the elect, and signs of the sun, moon and stars applies to the CHURCH at the end part of the same great tribulation period of Revelation 7! Right prior to the visible coming of the Son of Man.

What makes the Great Tribulation "greater" than all previous tribulations is not simply the number of bodies that die. It is the unprecedented spiritual darkness that comes upon the world near the end of the age.

The Bible repeatedly warns of a great falling away, widespread deception, and the rise of false christs and false prophets. The New Testament visible church itself becomes corrupted as Babylon the Great. Satan, who had been restrained while Christ built his church, is loosed for a little season. The assault is directed NOT primarily against earthly Jerusalem, but against the New Testament congregation—the spiritual dwelling place of God's people.

This is why Christ repeatedly warns about deception in Matthew 24. The chapter is saturated with warnings about false christs, false prophets, and counterfeit gospels. If the passage were primarily about a (ahem) military siege in 70 AD, why does Christ spend so much time warning about spiritual deception, huh?!

Listen, the Great Tribulation becomes most severe when the work of gathering the elect is complete - for those who endure the little season! Revelation shows a point when ALL servants of God have been sealed. The number of those who are "alive and remain" grows smaller and smaller. The visible church becomes increasingly overrun by false teaching. The witness of the true Gospel becomes exceedingly rare. Were those days not shortened, no flesh would be saved to be rapture out, get it?

That, in my view, is why the tribulation is unparalleled. It is not merely a crisis of physical survival but a crisis of spiritual deception on a global scale unlike anything before it or shall be! Jerusalem 70AD, you think? Please! Not even close!

The irony is that the preterist view reduces Christ's warning from a climactic end-of-age conflict affecting the whole body of Christ to a five-month Roman siege affecting one geographic city is a laughingstock! Yet Revelation 7 does not show a remnant from first-century Judea. It shows an innumerable multitude from every nation, kindred, people, and tongue who came out of the Great Tribulation, include the first century! Selah!

For that reason, Matthew 24 and Revelation 7 are speaking about the SAME Great Tribulation. It spans the New Testament age, reaches its most intense phase after Satan is loosed, and culminates in the return of Christ, the resurrection of the dead, and the gathering of all His elect.

Selah!