The Conundrum of Zechariah Ch. 14

[rwb]

Are you trying to claim that God's wrath can never be called tribulation? I've already shown you otherwise with Revelation 2:22. And there are passages like these, also...

Romans 2:5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek;

2 Thessalonians 1:6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you,

Where in the Bible is the wrath of God called "great tribulation"? These verses again prove what I've been saying. The wrath of God, [not great tribulation the disciples shall endure in this world], but indignation and wrath of God on every soul who does evil, repaying tribulation, anguish and affliction to those who trouble His disciples.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

What do you mean I don't allow? The verse plainly says "great tribulation" without any mention of the wrath of God.

What else is "wrath upon this people" in the context of "the days of vengeance" referring to except for the wrath of God? Vengeance is the Lord's, right? So, Luke 21:20-24 is talking about the days of God's vengeance and wrath against the Jews in Jerusalem. Matthew 24:15-22 is a parallel passage to that one.

Luke 21:21-23 (KJV) Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

This proves what I've been saying. Of necessity (great distress) not great tribulation

Are you trying to say here that you think "great distress" is different than "great tribulation"? I hope not, but that's how it comes across. Great distress and great tribulation are basically the same thing.

for those remaining in the land there shall be wrath upon them who are in Judaea because they did not flee to the mountains but stayed in the midst of Judaea. The wrath of God is ordained for them because they rejected and killed Christ the Messiah who was promised of Old to come and save them. This is fulfillment of all that is written concerning Him.

You are almost impossible to reason with and to follow. You try to argue that "great tribulation" is not the wrath of God, but then you proceed to indicate that the great distress mentioned in Luke 21:23 relates directly to the wrath of God. Now you have put yourself in a position where you have to somehow explain how "great distress" and "great tribulation" are not the same thing, even though they are. The words distress and tribulation are synonyms. Luke was recording the same thing Jesus said that Matthew and Mark did except he decided to refer to what Jesus talked about as "great distress" rather than "great tribulation". We should expect that the three accounts would not always quote what Jesus said word for word. That's especially true in the case of Luke who was writing to a Gentile audience who would not have understood a reference to the prophecy in Daniel and such. He had to spell things out for the Gentile audience, so he referenced what Jesus said a little differently at times than Matthew and Mark did and sometimes exactly the same.

Are you attempting to write your own version of Scripture?

Why do you ask stupid questions? What if I asked you a question like this? What would you think? Do you think I could possibly answer yes to this dumb question? Of course I am not attempting to write my won version of scripture. I could easily ask you that in the way you interpret Revelation 2:20-23 and other scriptures, but I know it's not your intention to write your own version of scripture. You just misinterpret a lot of scripture, but not on purpose.

You complain about me being hostile to you and such, but then you ask me insulting questions like this. Why do you think you are holier than thou when you do things like this?

It is not I, but the Scriptures themself that differentiate between the wrath of God upon an apostate people, and great tribulation His disciples must endure as they/we proclaim the Gospel of the Kingdom of God through Christ unto all the nations of the world.

I don't deny that Jesus also talked about persecution, but He never would say to flee to the mountains to avoid it. Not once did He ever say that people should try to hide from persecution. The wrath of God can be described as "great tribulation", as I proved using scripture (Revelation 2:20-23). You have to resort to denying that a description of Jesus telling people that He will cast them into great tribulation and kill them if they don't repent is a description of God's wrath. Which no one else in the world except you would try to claim. Why are you comfortable with having interpretations of scripture that no one else has? Why do you think you alone understand how passages like Revelation 2:20-23 should be interpreted and why you alone would claim that "great tribulation" can only describe tribulation for believers and can't ever refer to God's wrath against unbelievers?

Great tribulation ordained by God was NOT a display of the wrath of God.

The flood in Noah's day was great tribulation (an event involving a great amount of trouble/tribulation) and was ordained by God. But, you don't think the flood was God's wrath against the unrepentant wicked people of Noah's day?

Great tribulation is the result of what shall come to churches on the earth when spiritual apostasy and adultery is allowed to proceed/evolve unchecked. IOW great tribulation, as Christ forewarns His disciples will come upon the church if unchecked evil is permitted to enter and even have rule over the church. Christ will remove His light from the church (candlestick)

How is that not a description of God's wrath? It's a description of God's anger, judgment and punishment against spiritual spiritual apostasy and adultery. If that's not God's wrath, I don't know what is. It's like you're arguing that one plus one does not equal two. It's unbelievable.

Does the Bible say the flood was the wrath of God?

Genesis 6:7 (KJV) And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

Of course it does! Are you kidding me? The wrath of God refers to the anger of God that manifests in punishment against people for rebelling against Him. That is exactly what happened in the flood in Noah's day.

Where the Bible speaks explicitly of the "wrath of God" it is toward unbelievers, unrighteousness of man, children of disobedience, who shall all drink of the wrath of God without measure or mixture of His grace as in the days of Old, but shall be and was toward the apostate nation a full cup of His anger and indignation.

Is that not what happened with the flood? Was it not "unbelievers, unrighteousness of man, children of disobedience" who were killed because of their rebellion against God? Of course it was. So, that was God's wrath. As was what happened to the Jewish unbelievers in 70 AD, which is what Matthew 24:21 is about.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Where in the Bible is the wrath of God called "great tribulation"?

I'm just going to assume that you are playing games at this point. What do you think I've been showing you? Just read my previous posts. Matthew 24:21 and Revelation 2:22 speak of great tribulation in terms of God's wrath being carried out against unbelievers. How many times do I have to tell you that before you stop asking me this question?

These verses again prove what I've been saying.

What verses? Are you for real? Or are we in the Twilight Zone? Do you know that NO ONE agrees with your interpretation of Revelation 2:22? Does that not matter to you? I challenge you to find even one person who agrees with your interpretation of that verse. Anyone at all. Search the entire Internet. Ask all your friends. Ask everyone at your church. You won't find anyone else who would deny that the reference to "great tribulation" in that verse (which relates to Jesus sending Jezebel and those who committed spiritual adultery with her into great tribulation resulting in their deaths if they did not repent) is a reference to God's wrath.

 

[Marty fox]

I'm just going to assume that you are playing games at this point. What do you think I've been showing you? Just read my previous posts. Matthew 24:21 and Revelation 2:22 speak of great tribulation in terms of God's wrath being carried out against unbelievers. How many times do I have to tell you that before you stop asking me this question?


What verses? Are you for real? Or are we in the Twilight Zone? Do you know that NO ONE agrees with your interpretation of Revelation 2:22? Does that not matter to you? I challenge you to find even one person who agrees with your interpretation of that verse. Anyone at all. Search the entire Internet. Ask all your friends. Ask everyone at your church. You won't find anyone else who would deny that the reference to "great tribulation" in that verse (which relates to Jesus sending Jezebel and those who committed spiritual adultery with her into great tribulation resulting in their deaths if they did not repent) is a reference to God's wrath.

Sadley, I do also think that he's playing games at this point. He asked something, then gets the answer and asked the same question again, its a shame there are unwritten rules for debating.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Sadley, I do also think that he's playing games at this point. He asked something, then gets the answer and asked the same question again, its a shame there are unwritten rules for debating.

I'm just going to assume that is what he's doing at this point and it's something I can't understand. This forum is not a place for playing games. Bible doctrine is serious business. He asked me the following question after I have repeatedly shown him where in the Bible that I believe the wrath of God is called "great tribulation". rwb: "Where in the Bible is the wrath of God called "great tribulation"?".

How can I take him seriously at this point? I had already shown him where I believe the Bible shows that several times and then he asks me that question as if I haven't addressed it already several times? What am I supposed to think after that? He is either not reading what I'm saying, which I don't think is the case, or he is just playing games. It seems to be the latter at this point, which is sad. I have better things to do than to just play games with the Bible.

 

[rwb]

This reading does not indicate that the elect are the focus of this tribulation great but that the tribulation would be shortened for their sakes. If the great tribulation goes right up until the Lord’s return, as you argue, then why was it necessary to shorten its duration to facilitate the great incoming of the elect? In fact, the Lord declares, unless this judgment upon Jerusalem was shortened, limited and contained “there should no flesh be saved” (Matthew 24:22). In essence, what He was saying was, there would have been no possibility of a lost Gentile world receiving this great Gospel if God’s wrath would have had similarly spread to all nations. Verse 23 then significantly declares, “Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.” What the Lord was saying was that after the destruction of Jerusalem had been completed there would be a time (namely the intra-Advent period) in which many false prophets would arise and perform many “great signs and wonders,” this would continue to His one final future all-consummating coming when He would appear “as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west” (Matthew 24:2).

If the elect is not the focus of great tribulation, why would great tribulation need to be shortened for their sakes? If great tribulation is allowed to continue without intervention from God, there would be no elect left, they would all be killed and none left to proclaim the Gospel of the Kingdom of God unto all the nations of the world that the Kingdom of God in heaven might be complete when the last elect becomes saved.

Yes, this great tribulation is the lot in life for faithful disciples' [elect] of Christ right up to the sounding of the seventh/last trumpet. I do believe great tribulation will continue to intensify becoming greater, especially during Satan's little season.

In your view it appears the Lord is more concerned with what shall become of the apostate nation He has already declared to be a desolation than for His disciples as He sends them out to preach the Kingdom of God. Christ is speaking to His disciples when He says, "Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not". No doubt being concerned that His disciples might be led away by false Christs' saying they are of Christ, who are in fact deceivers, seeking to lead them away from Him which is part of great tribulation the disciples of Christ must endure.

The only mention of Jerusalem, the temple and buildings are that these things that they admire would not last for they would all be utterly destroyed "There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down". I believe Christ makes this statement that when they are indwelt with power from on high, after Christ is risen, they will remember what Christ said regarding the true, spiritual city, and temple that would be rebuilt in three days.

John 12:16 (KJV) These things understood not his disciples at the first: but when Jesus was glorified, then remembered they that these things were written of him, and that they had done these things unto him.

John 14:26 (KJV) But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

John 2:21-22 (KJV) But he spake of the temple of his body. When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

John 16:13-15 (KJV) Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

The intra-advent period began when Christ came to earth with the Kingdom of God. The disciples were instructed to go unto all the world with the Gospel just before Christ ascended up to heaven. Preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom of God through Christ was not delayed another 30 or so years to begin after the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. Whenever and wherever the Gospel of the Kingdom of God through Christ is proclaimed, great tribulation that comes through all manner of evil brought by the spirit of Satan will immediately proceed hoping to prevent the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven from being built. We have proof of great tribulation beginning immediately after Pentecost with the stoning of Stephen, the first Christian martyr for the Gospel of Christ.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

If the elect is not the focus of great tribulation, why would great tribulation need to be shortened for their sakes?

Why do you ask people questions that they've already answered? His answer to that question is within his post that you quoted.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Time to move on from this nonsense.

 

[rwb]

Your theological claims do not make sense if you place the GT at the end:

• Israel cannot be "led away captive into all nations" after your GT because the end will be there?
• Jerusalem cannot be trodden down of the Gentiles" because the end will be there?
• The "times of the Gentiles" must therefore be over now?

Do you honestly believe that the end-time great tribulation period, which you contend directly precedes the second coming, is going to see the re-dispersion of the Jews to all nations again? Luke 21:22-24 indicates, “For there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. And they shall fall by the edge of the sword.” What land? Natural Israel. What people? The Jews. What shall befall them? Those that are not slain “shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.”

Great tribulation Christ tells His disciples would be for them, began when Christ came to earth with the Kingdom of God. It will continue throughout every age until the seventh/last trumpet sounds and intensify during Satan's little season. When the last/seventh trumpet sounds time given the church for building the Kingdom of God in heaven through Christ shall be finished! That's when Satan will be set free for a little season and given one last opportunity to prevent the Kingdom of God in heaven from being complete.

Christ tells His disciples that they would know/understand/see the AOD spoken by Daniel be present/established/standup in the holy place. Do you agree with Preterit doctrine that believes it pertains to the Roman Army desecrating Jerusalem and the holy temple?

Matthew 24:15 (KJV) When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

Again, you make it appear you believe Christ is more concerned about the apostate nation than He is about His disciples being sent unto a hostile world to proclaim the Gospel of the Kingdom of God through Christ unto all the nations of the world that the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven shall be completed through them.

Matthew 21:42-46 (KJV) Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder. And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them. But when they sought to lay hands on him, they feared the multitude, because they took him for a prophet.

What do you think the "times of the Gentiles" is referring to?

"What land? Natural Israel. What people? The Jews. What shall befall them? Those that are not slain “shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.”"

Natural Israel, the apostate Jews?

Natural Israel, the apostate Jews who rejected Christ have been rejected by God. The Kingdom of God was taken from them, but you believe Christ is concerned about what shall befall them?

Matthew 21:42-45 (KJV) Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder. And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.

Matthew 23:37-39 (KJV) O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

The only nation Christ is now concerned with is the "holy nation", the elect people of God without distinction of race, both Jew of faith and Gentile of faith together called "the Israel of God."

1 Peter 2:9-10 (KJV) But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

Galatians 6:15-16 (KJV) For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

 

[rwb]

Your theological claims do not make sense if you place the GT at the end:

• Israel cannot be "led away captive into all nations" after your GT because the end will be there?
• Jerusalem cannot be trodden down of the Gentiles" because the end will be there?
• The "times of the Gentiles" must therefore be over now?

Do you honestly believe that the end-time great tribulation period, which you contend directly precedes the second coming, is going to see the re-dispersion of the Jews to all nations again? Luke 21:22-24 indicates, “For there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. And they shall fall by the edge of the sword.” What land? Natural Israel. What people? The Jews. What shall befall them? Those that are not slain “shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.”

The times of the Gentiles began when the 1st century disciples were given a mandate to "go and preach the gospel unto all nations." Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, but other Gentiles, until the fullness of them shall be saved, are also among the remnant of Jews of faith elect Gentiles of God to salvation.

Matthew 28:19-20 (KJV) Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Galatians 2:2 (KJV) And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, lest by any means I should run, or had run, in vain.

Luke 21:24 (KJV) And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Once the fullness of the Gentiles has become eternally saved, there won't be more time given apostate Israel (Jews in unbelief) to be saved. Because the fullness of the Gentiles is when there shall be signs in the sun, the moon, and stars with distress of nations because then they who are alive at this time shall see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory to harvest the elect from the four corners of heaven and the earth, who will be changed from mortal to immortal being fit for life forever with Christ on the new earth.

Luke 21:25-28 (KJV) And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Paul is not telling us that apostate Israel will be saved once the fullness of the Gentiles has been saved. When he says, "all Israel shall be saved", because that's when Christ, the Deliverer shall come out of Zion from above (seen in a cloud) and turn away ungodliness from Jacob. The personal name for Israel of faith, who are neither Jew nor Gentile but the children or Israel of God.

Romans 11:25-26 (KJV) For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

 

[WPM]

The times of the Gentiles began when the 1st century disciples were given a mandate to "go and preach the gospel unto all nations." Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, but other Gentiles, until the fullness of them shall be saved, are also among the remnant of Jews of faith elect Gentiles of God to salvation.

Matthew 28:19-20 (KJV) Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Galatians 2:2 (KJV) And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, lest by any means I should run, or had run, in vain.

Luke 21:24 (KJV) And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Once the fullness of the Gentiles has become eternally saved, there won't be more time given apostate Israel (Jews in unbelief) to be saved. Because the fullness of the Gentiles is when there shall be signs in the sun, the moon, and stars with distress of nations because then they who are alive at this time shall see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory to harvest the elect from the four corners of heaven and the earth, who will be changed from mortal to immortal being fit for life forever with Christ on the new earth.

Luke 21:25-28 (KJV) And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Paul is not telling us that apostate Israel will be saved once the fullness of the Gentiles has been saved. When he says, "all Israel shall be saved", because that's when Christ, the Deliverer shall come out of Zion from above (seen in a cloud) and turn away ungodliness from Jacob. The personal name for Israel of faith, who are neither Jew nor Gentile but the children or Israel of God.

Romans 11:25-26 (KJV) For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

You have totally avoided every point i presented. All you and TS do is push what you have been taught.

How about addressing the glaring holes in your thrology

 

[rwb]

You have totally avoided every point i presented. All you and TS do is push what you have been taught.

How about addressing the glaring holes in your thrology

The holes are in the doctrine of Preterism! Because the only way your Preterit doctrine is biblical is to read it INTO the WORD OF GOD, because it certainly cannot be proven FROM THE WORD OF GOD!

You display yourself more an internet troll than you do a Christian.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The holes are in the doctrine of Preterism! Because the only way your Preterit doctrine is biblical is to read it INTO the WORD OF GOD, because it certainly cannot be proven FROM THE WORD OF GOD!

You display yourself more an internet troll than you do a Christian.

LOL. You are the one trolling here. As if your whining and trolling are reflective of Christian behavior? By the way, rebuking people like you for blatant false teaching is very Christian.

You are accusing someone of being a preterist just because of interpreting one passage of the Olivet Discourse as occurring in 70 AD. How can you be so IGNORANT? Preterists believe that all, or at least most, of the Olivet Discourse is fulfilled. People like WPM, jeffweeder and myself do not believe that, so we are NOT preterists. Just because we are not HYPER-FUTURISTS and HYPER-SPIRITUALISTS like you and TS does not mean we are preterists.

 

[WPM]

The holes are in the doctrine of Preterism! Because the only way your Preterit doctrine is biblical is to read it INTO the WORD OF GOD, because it certainly cannot be proven FROM THE WORD OF GOD!

You display yourself more an internet troll than you do a Christian.

LOL. You are becoming more and more like the Pretribbers with your constant avoidance and ad hominem. You did not answer one single contradiction in your position.

You are trolling.

 

[WPM]

LOL. You are the one trolling here. As if your whining and trolling are reflective of Christian behavior? By the way, rebuking people like you for blatant false teaching is very Christian.

You are accusing someone of being a preterist just because of interpreting one passage of the Olivet Discourse as occurring in 70 AD. How can you be so IGNORANT? Preterists believe that all, or at least most, of the Olivet Discourse is fulfilled. People like WPM, jeffweeder and myself do not believe that, so we are NOT preterists. Just because we are not HYPER-FUTURISTS and HYPER-SPIRITUALISTS like you and TS does not mean we are preterists.

He is incapable of addressing one point. He can only relay what he has been taught. Knock him off that and he has nothing.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

He is incapable of addressing one point. He can only relay what he has been taught. Knock him off that and he has nothing.

Exactly. He has has ready made responses in a script, but as soon as you get him off script, he doesn't know what to do. You said he reminds you of pretribs with his avoidance and ad hominen attacks and I couldn't agree more.

In terms of him not knowing what to do when things go off script, that's what happened when he was claiming that "great tribulation" could not refer to God's wrath in Matthew 24:21 and then I showed him a verse describing "great tribulation" as God's wrath (Revelation 2:22). He was not prepared for that, so he has stubbornly and foolishly claimed that Revelation 2:22, which talks about Jesus punishing the unrepentant Jezebel and all who committed spiritual adultery with her with "great tribulation", is not referring to God's wrath. Since when is a case of God/Jesus punishing people for their unrepentant wickedness and rebellion not a description of God's wrath? Literally no one anywhere agrees with his interpretation of that verse.

 

[WPM]

Exactly. He has has ready made responses in a script, but as soon as you get him off script, he doesn't know what to do. You said he reminds you of pretribs with his avoidance and ad hominen attacks and I couldn't agree more.

In terms of him not knowing what to do when things go off script, that's what happened when he was claiming that "great tribulation" could not refer to God's wrath in Matthew 24:21 and then I showed him a verse describing "great tribulation" as God's wrath (Revelation 2:22). He was not prepared for that, so he has stubbornly and foolishly claimed that Revelation 2:22, which talks about Jesus punishing the unrepentant Jezebel and all who committed spiritual adultery with her with "great tribulation", is not referring to God's wrath. Since when is a case of God/Jesus punishing people for their unrepentant wickedness and rebellion not a description of God's wrath? Literally no one anywhere agrees with his interpretation of that verse.

That's the way the politicians operate. They have their talking points.

 

[rwb]

You have totally avoided every point i presented. All you and TS do is push what you have been taught.

How about addressing the glaring holes in your thrology

Yes, I push what I have been taught, but YOU no doubt have arrived at your understanding through intense personal study of the Bible yourself! NO one but you apparently have the Holy Spirit to guide you, so we must depend on others to study for us. You see how you take delight in belittling others, while calling yourself a Christian. Since you haven't shown any glaring holes in my understanding of doctrine, there is nothing to address. But then this is your usual comeback when you cannot address what is shown from the Bible is not true, because even you understand arguing against the God is an exercise in futility!

 

[rwb]

LOL. You are the one trolling here. As if your whining and trolling are reflective of Christian behavior? By the way, rebuking people like you for blatant false teaching is very Christian.

You are accusing someone of being a preterist just because of interpreting one passage of the Olivet Discourse as occurring in 70 AD. How can you be so IGNORANT? Preterists believe that all, or at least most, of the Olivet Discourse is fulfilled. People like WPM, jeffweeder and myself do not believe that, so we are NOT preterists. Just because we are not HYPER-FUTURISTS and HYPER-SPIRITUALISTS like you and TS does not mean we are preterists.

If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's a DUCK!