The Spirit Delivers From The Power Of The Flesh, The Spirit Gives Sonship, The Spirit Assures Of Future Glory, The Spirit Assures Of Final Victory

[ScottA]

5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. 6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.

He's not talking about the body. The body isn't the source of our sin. It was the inner nature that Adam gave to Satan. Jesus defeated the works of Satan and why we cannot commit sins of the flesh, the old sin nature.

No, Paul, is not talking about "that" body of flesh--"you do not sow that body that shall be" (1 Corinthians 15:37).

 

[ScottA]

8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

If you keep claiming being under the Law of Moses, 14-25 you will never be free from sin. You will always reckon yourself a sinner.

If you claim and hang on to the idea of "that body" is to be saved, rather than sown in death--discarded and laid down--you are holding to the law which cannot save. Jesus did not come to save the flesh, but to give us new life in the spirit of God.

As even Moses said, "I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live." Which speaks of two different bodies--one of flesh unto death, and the other of spirit unto life everlasting. That is the choice set before us all.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

If you claim and hang on to the idea of "that body" is to be saved, rather than sown in death--discarded and laid down--you are holding to the law which cannot save. Jesus did not come to save the flesh, but to give us new life in the spirit of God.

As even Moses said, "I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live." Which speaks of two different bodies--one of flesh unto death, and the other of spirit unto life everlasting. That is the choice set before us all.

You are mistaken about what I believe. It is not the body of skin and bone that holds sin, but the inner unseen self of spirit and conscience. It is the inner self that MUST be born again of the Spirit. Once born again we are free from sin and full of the Spirit. It is the Spirit in our conscience that is the reason we cannot sin.

Do you believe that, or are we still on different pages?

 

[ScottA]

You are mistaken about what I believe. It is not the body of skin and bone that holds sin, but the inner unseen self of spirit and conscience. It is the inner self that MUST be born again of the Spirit. Once born again we are free from sin and full of the Spirit. It is the Spirit in our conscience that is the reason we cannot sin.

Do you believe that, or are we still on different pages?

No, that is not the biblical position.

The bible speaks of the flesh, and "the spirit of man" within, and the consciousness, and the mind, not as "that body" that comes from being "born again." It literally says that it is not even us "who live, but Christ who lives in" us. The mind is "renewed", but the "body" is literally replaced. Thus, the newness of life, is born of life not of sin and death.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

No, that is not the biblical position.

The bible speaks of the flesh, and "the spirit of man" within, and the consciousness, and the mind, not as "that body" that comes from being "born again." It literally says that it is not even us "who live, but Christ who lives in" us. The mind is "renewed", but the "body" is literally replaced. Thus, the newness of life, is born of life not of sin and death.

I know you know that our body is not replaced now, so what do you believe is happening now for us to be free from sin? It is our spirit and soul that is born again now. They are the new man. When God's people, when just the Jews, were living under the Law of Moses, they had a fully functioning sin nature and that was why they had a struggle to keep the Law as depicted in Romans 7:14-25. There were too many church fathers who could only relate to the struggle and not the freedom from sin. I was like them for the first 30 years of going to church until I was set free on 2/9/77. All my desires changed from sinful desires to righteous desires. It is too bad that so many denominations started out with carnal church father's beliefs based on their experience and not the Word of God.

Paul says clearly that Romans 7:14:25 is about living under the Law. Have you been taught we are not under the Law, or still under the Law? It has to do with sin. If you are free from sin, you don't need the Law, so are not under a law you don't need. But if you are a willful sinner then you are still under the Law. Only someone who has been freed from sin has Christ living through them.

 

[ScottA]

I know you know that our body is not replaced now, so what do you believe is happening now for us to be free from sin? It is our spirit and soul that is born again now. They are the new man. When God's people, when just the Jews, were living under the Law of Moses, they had a fully functioning sin nature and that was why they had a struggle to keep the Law as depicted in Romans 7:14-25. There were too many church fathers who could only relate to the struggle and not the freedom from sin. I was like them for the first 30 years of going to church until I was set free on 2/9/77. All my desires changed from sinful desires to righteous desires. It is too bad that so many denominations started out with carnal church father's beliefs based on their experience and not the Word of God.

Paul says clearly that Romans 7:14:25 is about living under the Law. Have you been taught we are not under the Law, or still under the Law? It has to do with sin. If you are free from sin, you don't need the Law, so are not under a law you don't need. But if you are a willful sinner then you are still under the Law. Only someone who has been freed from sin has Christ living through them.

No, we are simply "alive and remaining", alive in God and yet remaining in the flesh and this world, the makeup of which is two completely different bodies. This is the unique gift of God unto the gentiles who did not live as chosen like Israel, but live after salvation and the Holy Spirit has come.

As for you (merely for example, as you have made example of yourself), indeed, desire changes within our newness of life in Christ within us--but not the flesh, for which it is written, "But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to fulfill its lusts" (Romans 13:14), "But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified (1 Corinthians 9:27). Such is the struggle between the flesh and the Spirit while we are "alive and remaining."

The proof of which is the sin that still surfaces from time to time with those born again of the spirit of God. Are you saying you do not sin, now, ever--not even in the smallest way, even in thought?

 

[1stCenturyLady]

No, we are simply "alive and remaining", alive in God and yet remaining in the flesh and this world, the makeup of which is two completely different bodies. This is the unique gift of God unto the gentiles who did not live as chosen like Israel, but live after salvation and the Holy Spirit has come.

As for you (merely for example, as you have made example of yourself), indeed, desire changes within our newness of life in Christ within us--but not the flesh, for which it is written, "But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to fulfill its lusts" (Romans 13:14), "But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified (1 Corinthians 9:27). Such is the struggle between the flesh and the Spirit while we are "alive and remaining."

The proof of which is the sin that still surfaces from time to time with those born again of the spirit of God. Are you saying you do not sin, now, ever--not even in the smallest way, even in thought?

I agree. Jesus is the Author and Finisher of our faith. When we first come to Christ and our inner self (nature) is recreated from a sin nature to a clean nature, a major supernatural thing happens to us, and we naturally keep the commandments of God. That first experience is Jesus being the AUTHOR of our faith. The poor Old Testament Jews had to keep them with a nature that was in opposition to the commandments of God. Jesus dwells within us and there is no sin nature for Him to fight to not kill someone, or steal from them. We take on His nature, and it is no longer the old me, but Christ who lives in me. Rev. 22:11 shows two levels of each the unsaved and the saved. The Christian is made righteous by Jesus as the AUTHOR. But as the FINISHER of our faith which takes a long time, we can come to the highest level of never stumbling, holiness.

Then the harder part comes second when Jesus becomes the FINISHER of our faith. The evidence displays after time. Here are the two verses you supplied, and they are both in this decades long process of glorification. (1 Cor. 6:11 tells us we are already sanctified when we are washed and justified. The process of glorification is not after death as many denominations teach.)

1 Cor. 9:24 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may obtain it. 25 And everyone who competes for the prize is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a perishable crown, but we for an imperishable crown. 26 Therefore I run thus: not with uncertainty. Thus I fight: not as one who beats the air. 27 But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.

1 Cor. 6:12 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not helpful. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any. 13 Foods for the stomach and the stomach for foods, but God will destroy both it and them. Now the body is not for sexual immorality but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body. 14 And God both raised up the Lord and will also raise us up by His power.

Here Peter shows this process of glorification. John 17:20-23 shows Jesus giving us His glory. Otherwise we could never be conformed into His likeness. 2 Peter 1:2-11 shows the particulars of that process:

2 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, 3 as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, 4 by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

Fruitful Growth in the Faith​

5 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.
10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; 11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

 

[ScottA]

I agree. Jesus is the Author and Finisher of our faith. When we first come to Christ and our inner self (nature) is recreated from a sin nature to a clean nature, a major supernatural thing happens to us, and we naturally keep the commandments of God. That first experience is Jesus being the AUTHOR of our faith. The poor Old Testament Jews had to keep them with a nature that was in opposition to the commandments of God. Jesus dwells within us and there is no sin nature for Him to fight to not kill someone, or steal from them. We take on His nature, and it is no longer the old me, but Christ who lives in me. Rev. 22:11 shows two levels of each the unsaved and the saved. The Christian is made righteous by Jesus as the AUTHOR. But as the FINISHER of our faith which takes a long time, we can come to the highest level of never stumbling, holiness.

Then the harder part comes second when Jesus becomes the FINISHER of our faith. The evidence displays after time. Here are the two verses you supplied, and they are both in this decades long process of glorification. (1 Cor. 6:11 tells us we are already sanctified when we are washed and justified. The process of glorification is not after death as many denominations teach.)

1 Cor. 9:24 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may obtain it. 25 And everyone who competes for the prize is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a perishable crown, but we for an imperishable crown. 26 Therefore I run thus: not with uncertainty. Thus I fight: not as one who beats the air. 27 But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.

1 Cor. 6:12 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not helpful. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any. 13 Foods for the stomach and the stomach for foods, but God will destroy both it and them. Now the body is not for sexual immorality but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body. 14 And God both raised up the Lord and will also raise us up by His power.

Here Peter shows this process of glorification. John 17:20-23 shows Jesus giving us His glory. Otherwise we could never be conformed into His likeness. 2 Peter 1:2-11 shows the particulars of that process:

2 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, 3 as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, 4 by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

Fruitful Growth in the Faith​

5 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.
10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; 11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

You are still mixing the old and the new, the flesh and the spirit of God, as you say, "recreated" not meaning replaced. Which the scriptures do also refer to as being washed clean--but it is "not that body" that is born again. You are trying to hold onto the flesh--but it is "a new creation" completely, and "not" the flesh (2 Corinthians 5:17).

To the contrary, what you have been describing is one merely circumcised, of which it is written: "For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but a new creation" (Galatians 6:15). This is what is meant by, "The flesh profits nothing." It's "not that body."

So, no, there is no process per se of Christ finishing our faith after we receive the Holy Spirit. That refers to Jesus authoring our faith "before the foundation of the world"--but then, what does He say? "It is finished"--finished at the cross before the coming of the Holy Spirit and that new man born within of the spirit of God--rightly not called a recreation or even washed clean--but rather "Christ in you." (Colossians 1:27).

In other words, the many passages that tell of all these things can possibly lead one to believe that there is a process of cleansing after salvation--but that is merely because at that time everything was new and in transition or even process of crossing over from a time when salvation was not yet available to a time after it came. It was then a process for that generation--but not for salvation. Salvation is Christ, in whom is no process, as He "is the same today, tomorrow, and forever." All this needs to be factored in. Meaning, when "Behold, I stand at the door and knock"--when Christ comes into a person in His act of salvation unto "each one in his own order"--it is instantaneous, without the passing of time. Which is to say--if you are ready and can receive it as true--this is "that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only."

 

[1stCenturyLady]

You are still mixing the old and the new, the flesh and the spirit of God, as you say, "recreated" not meaning replaced. Which the scriptures do also refer to as being washed clean--but it is "not that body" that is born again. You are trying to hold onto the flesh--but it is "a new creation" completely, and "not" the flesh (2 Corinthians 5:17).

To the contrary, what you have been describing is one merely circumcised, of which it is written: "For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but a new creation" (Galatians 6:15). This is what is meant by, "The flesh profits nothing." It's "not that body."

I'm confused, and not sure what you think I meant. We will get a new body, but only after it has died and been resurrected. Paul speaking of a new creation is our inner nature, our spirit and soul, not our body. The reason why only our spirit and soul MUST be born again now is because they, together, make up our nature, either a sinful carnal nature of the damned, or a clean nature of the born again. And the reason why the body doesn't have to be recreated right now is because it is not the source of sin. That is wholly our old man

,

So, no, there is no process per se of Christ finishing our faith after we receive the Holy Spirit. That refers to Jesus authoring our faith "before the foundation of the world"--but then, what does He say? "It is finished"--finished at the cross before the coming of the Holy Spirit and that new man born within of the spirit of God--rightly not called a recreation or even washed clean--but rather "Christ in you." (Colossians 1:27).

In other words, the many passages that tell of all these things can possibly lead one to believe that there is a process of cleansing after salvation--but that is merely because at that time everything was new and in transition or even process of crossing over from a time when salvation was not yet available to a time after it came. It was then a process for that generation--but not for salvation. Salvation is Christ, in whom is no process, as He "is the same today, tomorrow, and forever." All this needs to be factored in. Meaning, when "Behold, I stand at the door and knock"--when Christ comes into a person in His act of salvation unto "each one in his own order"--it is instantaneous, without the passing of time. Which is to say--if you are ready and can receive it as true--this is "that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only."

I agree. The 'process' is not for cleansing willful sin. If born again we cannot commit them. The process is only for the maturing of the fruit of the Spirit.

When born again we walk in the Spirit, not in the flesh. Read 1 John 1:7 is what happens during that process.

7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

So you see there is a process, and it is for cleansing, but NOT still cleansing the willful sins unto death that is the subject of 1 John 3. While walking in the Spirit and abiding in Jesus He matures the fruit of the Spirit as we unintentionally commit them. Those are called sins not unto death.

For 3,500 years since Moses received the Law to judge the people by there were two types of sin. Breaking a commandment was punishable by death, but there was a sacrifice for unintentional sin which I found interesting as it has the elements of the Lord's Supper in it. Even the Catholics knew of the two types of sin, and they were commanded to bring all the truths from the RCC into the Reformation, but instead of obeying God, they lumped them altogether and declared "sin is sin." Out of that huge error many false doctrines were birthed that send people to hell.

 

[ScottA]

I'm confused, and not sure what you think I meant. We will get a new body, but only after it has died and been resurrected. Paul speaking of a new creation is our inner nature, our spirit and soul, not our body. The reason why only our spirit and soul MUST be born again now is because they, together, make up our nature, either a sinful carnal nature of the damned, or a clean nature of the born again. And the reason why the body doesn't have to be recreated right now is because it is not the source of sin. That is wholly our old man

No, but read, listen, and learn of the whole counsel of God.

You believe we get a new body "only after it has died"--against the word of God saying, "that very day that you eat of it you shall surely die"--that is the day you partake of sin. So, what then, you believe you will not partake of sin until the day you die--and then you will receive a new body? That is foolishness!

That is why Paul referred to our unique status of being alive before the flesh passes--because before salvation and new life at the time of being born again of the spirit of God--we were (technically and biblically) "as dead"--yet still remaining in the flesh and in this world after being made alive..."not that body" but a completely new body within. So--are you saying you do not have Christ in you, not a new different spirit body within you? Are you still waiting for Jesus to knock and enter into you, bringing with Him "not that body" of flesh, but a new body born of the spirit of God?

But now I have repeated several times--so I am going to stop giving chapter and verse. I am happy to discuss it, but perhaps you just need to read of it all again yourself.

 

[ScottA]

I agree. The 'process' is not for cleansing willful sin. If born again we cannot commit them. The process is only for the maturing of the fruit of the Spirit.

When born again we walk in the Spirit, not in the flesh. Read 1 John 1:7 is what happens during that process.

7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

So you see there is a process, and it is for cleansing, but NOT still cleansing the willful sins unto death that is the subject of 1 John 3. While walking in the Spirit and abiding in Jesus He matures the fruit of the Spirit as we unintentionally commit them. Those are called sins not unto death.

For 3,500 years since Moses received the Law to judge the people by there were two types of sin. Breaking a commandment was punishable by death, but there was a sacrifice for unintentional sin which I found interesting as it has the elements of the Lord's Supper in it. Even the Catholics knew of the two types of sin, and they were commanded to bring all the truths from the RCC into the Reformation, but instead of obeying God, they lumped them altogether and declared "sin is sin." Out of that huge error many false doctrines were birthed that send people to hell.

No, it is not true, that "When born again we walk in the Spirit, not in the flesh." It is a choice.

And what you are doing is against, "In that day, he who is on the housetop, and his goods are in the house, let him not come down to take them away. And likewise the one who is in the field, let him not turn back." The day that Jesus comes into you--is "that day"--that day of being born again of the spirit of God. But you keep going "back" to include "that body" in the mix, where there is to be "no communion"--not one body, but two different bodies stuck with each other to struggle and serve in the good works of Christ, having put that old body of flesh under subjection to the new spirit body (as best you can), until the flesh body passes.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

No, it is not true, that "When born again we walk in the Spirit, not in the flesh." It is a choice.

And what you are doing is against, "In that day, he who is on the housetop, and his goods are in the house, let him not come down to take them away. And likewise the one who is in the field, let him not turn back." The day that Jesus comes into you--is "that day"--that day of being born again of the spirit of God. But you keep going "back" to include "that body" in the mix, where there is to be "no communion"--not one body, but two different bodies stuck with each other to struggle and serve in the good works of Christ, having put that old body of flesh under subjection to the new spirit body (as best you can), until the flesh body passes.

That verse is about the destruction of the temple in 70 AD and Nero. And may also be speaking of a new temple being built not present yet as a paradigm of the one the Apostles were speaking to Jesus about with the Antichrist/the beast of Revelation 14.

Matthew 24:15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

Luke 21:20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. 24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Mark 13:14 “So when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not” (let the reader understand), “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 15 Let him who is on the housetop not go down into the house, nor enter to take anything out of his house. 16 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 17 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 18 And pray that your flight may not be in winter. 19 For in those days there will be tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the creation which God created until this time, nor ever shall be. 20 And unless the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake, whom He chose, He shortened the days.

 

[ScottA]

That verse is about the destruction of the temple in 70 AD and Nero. And may also be speaking of a new temple being built not present yet as a paradigm of the one the Apostles were speaking to Jesus about with the Antichrist/the beast of Revelation 14.

Matthew 24:15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

Luke 21:20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. 24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Mark 13:14 “So when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not” (let the reader understand), “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 15 Let him who is on the housetop not go down into the house, nor enter to take anything out of his house. 16 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 17 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 18 And pray that your flight may not be in winter. 19 For in those days there will be tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the creation which God created until this time, nor ever shall be. 20 And unless the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake, whom He chose, He shortened the days.

Your understanding and interpretation are incorrect.

The references you gave speak of...did you not grasp, "But He was speaking of the temple of His body?" You are not connecting the dots.

Who or what is "His body?" Have you not read, "Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually" or "And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all?"

Those passages hold so much more--but you have not yet even understood the first point. If you have questions, I am happy to give the correct answers.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Your understanding and interpretation are incorrect.

The references you gave speak of...did you not grasp, "But He was speaking of the temple of His body?" You are not connecting the dots.

Who or what is "His body?" Have you not read, "Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually" or "And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all?"

Those passages hold so much more--but you have not yet even understood the first point. If you have questions, I am happy to give the correct answers.

Scott, Daniel is speaking of the Jewish Temple. How can you think that the abomination of desolation could be inside the body of Jesus, or inside someone born again? You are not making sense to me.

What is your belief about the second coming of Jesus.

Preterist?
Pre-trib.?
Post-trib.?
Post-wrath?
Partial preterist?

Do you believe in the Millennium on earth?
Are you an Amillenniumist?
Who are the two witnesses?

Personally, I'm open to three of them, but don't believe in preteristism in any form. I also believe there will be the Millennium. And I believe the two witnesses are the same two who witnessed the transfiguration of Jesus, Moses and Elijah. Enoch didn't witness anything except heaven.

 

[ScottA]

Scott, Daniel is speaking of the Jewish Temple. How can you think that the abomination of desolation could be inside the body of Jesus, or inside someone born again? You are not making sense to me.

First, the answers I give are not of thinking, but of knowing.

I could likewise ask how can you think that anything worldly like the temple of stone, is simply that?

The answer is, Daniel's vision and prophecy was part of the "light unto the gentiles." In other words, that light of Daniel's prophecy was to cast an image of understanding as a piece of all that came "precept upon precept, line upon line, here a little there a little" which came to fruition in Christ--in the temple of His body, the church. As firstfruits, the abomination of desolation (the act bringing an end to Christ in the flesh and ultimately to this world--was Christ crucified, in whom all who are His partake.

What is your belief about the second coming of Jesus.

Preterist?
Pre-trib.?
Post-trib.?
Post-wrath?
Partial preterist?

Again, I am not here dabbling in what "I" believe.

But the answer is: None of those is true, for none of them is "today" as Jesus stated, saying also, "Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me." Which is "that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father", which Paul elaborated to say, "but each one in his own order"--his own "today", just as Jesus told the thief on the cross.

Do you believe in the Millennium on earth?
Are you an Amillenniumist?

Spiritually, "a thousand years" (millennium) means "in the fullness of time"--which, yes are fulfilled on earth. Likewise, all "sevens", and "forty years", or "four hundred years", all simply speak of "times" of fulfillment, each having their own significance. A good example of just how abstract all these terms are, "forty days and nights" in the ark, "forty years" of wandering in the desert, and "forty days" of Jesus in the wilderness tempted by the devil--all spiritually translate as a lifetime. A search of "forty days" in the Bible is enough to make your head spin...which is to say...one cannot navigate it alone--and the Holy Spirit only reveals understanding "in the fullness of time."

No, I am not any sort of 'ismist.

Who are the two witnesses?

Good question--and right on cue! They are...the two bodies we have been discussing: the flesh and the spirit. But to bring it all together in the correct context, it is written for just that purpose, as all being one man in the flesh and the other the Spirit: "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive...And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit." In this way, every person born of the flesh is a witness, as is every person born of the spirit of God.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

First, the answers I give are not of thinking, but of knowing.

I could likewise ask how can you think that anything worldly like the temple of stone, is simply that?

The answer is, Daniel's vision and prophecy was part of the "light unto the gentiles." In other words, that light of Daniel's prophecy was to cast an image of understanding as a piece of all that came "precept upon precept, line upon line, here a little there a little" which came to fruition in Christ--in the temple of His body, the church. As firstfruits, the abomination of desolation (the act bringing an end to Christ in the flesh and ultimately to this world--was Christ crucified, in whom all who are His partake.


Again, I am not here dabbling in what "I" believe.

But the answer is: None of those is true, for none of them is "today" as Jesus stated, saying also, "Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me." Which is "that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father", which Paul elaborated to say, "but each one in his own order"--his own "today", just as Jesus told the thief on the cross.


Spiritually, "a thousand years" (millennium) means "in the fullness of time"--which, yes are fulfilled on earth. Likewise, all "sevens", and "forty years", or "four hundred years", all simply speak of "times" of fulfillment, each having their own significance. A good example of just how abstract all these terms are, "forty days and nights" in the ark, "forty years" of wandering in the desert, and "forty days" of Jesus in the wilderness tempted by the devil--all spiritually translate as a lifetime. A search of "forty days" in the Bible is enough to make your head spin...which is to say...one cannot navigate it alone--and the Holy Spirit only reveals understanding "in the fullness of time."

No, I am not any sort of 'ismist.


Good question--and right on cue! They are...the two bodies we have been discussing: the flesh and the spirit. But to bring it all together in the correct context, it is written for just that purpose, as all being one man in the flesh and the other the Spirit: "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive...And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit." In this way, every person born of the flesh is a witness, as is every person born of the spirit of God.

I'm sorry, Scott, but I don't think there is any way to discuss this with you. I've never heard anyone with this interpretation of your doctrine. You're on your own I think. Or are there any denominations that teach this I can look up?

 

[ScottA]

I'm sorry, Scott, but I don't think there is any way to discuss this with you. I've never heard anyone with this interpretation of your doctrine. You're on your own I think. Or are there any denominations that teach this I can look up?

Is that the established method of God--that in order to be believable things should be approved or sponsored by men?

Of course not.

Even so, many prefer the teachings of men.

So be it. By that measure you use, so shall it be measured back to you.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Is that the established method of God--that in order to be believable things should be approved or sponsored by men?

Of course not.

Even so, many prefer the teachings of men.

So be it. By that measure you use, so shall it be measured back to you.

That's not it. What I believe, no one else seems to believe either, even though it is clear in the Bible and God. I did not learn what I know from a denomination of man, so is not the "teachings of men." I expect, yours isn't either, but what you believe is not explained in the Bible, so we have no common ground to discuss what you believe, so I asked if your beliefs were that of some denomination I haven't heard of that could explain it better.