The Two Witnesses Came and Went Thousands of Years Ago
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- Jul 11, 2015
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There are some exceptions to dying such as those who are raptured and the bible does not say Enoch or Elijah ever died. Most humans have or will die but not all, and might as well add that some died, and were resurrected and likely died a second time being likely resurrected back to a mortal state.
- Jul 11, 2015
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And what of the two prophets being killed and their bodies laying dead in the street for 3.5 days then resurrecting? Doesn't sound like the law and prophets.
Spiritual Israelite
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It doesn't have to refer to two individuals. We're talking about the most highly symbolic book in the Bible here. I believe the two witnesses symbolically represent the church (two olive trees = branches from the natural olive tree and wild olive tree grafted in together - Romans 11) and their dead bodies refers to the overall silencing of the gospel for a short time while deception, wickedness and apostasy increases significantly for a "little season" before Jesus returns.
Luke 16:19-31
New International Version
The Rich Man and Lazarus
19 “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’
25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’
27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’
29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’
30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’
31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”
In verse 31 above not only does Jesus predict that people will still reject Him after He rises from the dead, but He also stated that He wouldn't be sending any prophets back because the people still won't believe them.
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Sorry, can't agree.
In context it was about the rich man's family being warned by Lazarus, not Jesus. Resurrection was also not mentioned. Another dif is that this unsaved man is asking for a righteous person from Abraham's bosom to be sent to warn people and the answer was no, but Jesus did in fact come back to this world.
The law and the prophets pointed to Jesus and they symbolically represent Jesus and the events of His life.
Hebrews 9
27 Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,
Hebrews 11
13 All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance, admitting that they were foreigners and strangers on earth.
Enoch was mentioned in Hebrews 11
Enoch (Hebrews 11:5) and Elijah (2Kings 2:11) were both raised to heaven before they died.
IMO they are the two witnesses (Revelation 11:1-14).
IMO they are the two witnesses (Revelation 11:1-14).
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
See how people don't put enough effort into studying scripture? It's right there written in Hebrews 11:13 that all the people of faith previously mentioned died, and that included Enoch. But, someone is still trying to claim that he didn't die. People draw conclusions from isolated verses like Hebrews 11:5 without reading the surrounding verses. That's not how to interpret scripture.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Are you ignoring what Marty posted? What does it say later about Enoch and the others of faith that are mentioned in Hebrews 11 before verse 13?
Hebrews 11:13 All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance, admitting that they were foreigners and strangers on earth.
All these people of faith referenced there included Enoch and it says they all died. So, Enoch died. It's not possible that he ascended to the third heaven/paradise where Jesus is because Jesus said the following long after Enoch was taking up to heaven, which probably just refers to the first heaven (earth's atmosphere, the sky).
John 3:13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.
The above verse means that Elijah did not ascend to the third heaven/paradise, either. You need to stop interpreting verses in a way that contradicts other verses.
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But those two scriptural concepts don't match what Rev 11 describes. It clearly shows two ppl being murdered, that resurrect 3.5 days later.
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Yes and God says Enoch did not die.
Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
But the very same chapter and writer says
13 All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance, admitting that they were foreigners and strangers on earth
Enoch was one of those people the writer through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit didn't contradict himself. They had to die to inherit the promise.
The bible also has these verses
Hebrews 9
27 Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment
1 Corinthians 15
50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
We have to die to inherit. That death may look different like in the rapture, but it is still death to transform to a new body
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