The Two Witnesses Came and Went Thousands of Years Ago

[William Barton]

But, they were not taken up to the third heaven/paradise where Jesus is or else Jesus wouldn't have said this....

John 3:13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.

Jesus made no exceptions here. No one, including Enoch and Elijah, had ever gone to heaven up to that point except for Jesus Himself who came from heaven, as in the third heaven/paradise.

Spiritual Israelite explains:
<no one including Enoch and Elijah had ever gone to heaven up to that point>

Bible explains:

o. "Enoch walked with God, and he was not, for God took him." (Genesis 5:24)

o. Elijah went up in a whirlwind into heaven (2Kings 2:11)

o. Both went to heaven, and neither of them died at that time.

o. The apostle John had a *vision* of heaven (Revelation 1:11).

 

[Dan Clarkston]

The Two Witnesses Came and Went Thousands of Years Ago

Yeah well when the two witnesses come on the scene and the entire world knows about them and what they are doing in real time (like live on TV and internet) I guess you'll have to return and amend your premise

 

[Dan Clarkston]

By contrast believers are "taken" at the rapture, to spare them from the horrific judgments to come

Because we are not appointed unto wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9)

However, those doing evil (whether they are believers or not) will experience God's wrath because God said man shall reap what he sows (Gal 6:7,8)

Romans 2:7-11
To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
For there is no respect of persons with God.

There are many among us claiming to be Christians who do not obey the truth (God's Word), but obey unrighteousness

 

[William Barton]

Spiritual Israelite noted:

<no one has ever gone into heaven>

John 3:13 αναβεβηκεν = "ascended" (into heaven) is found in 2Corinthians 5:8:

"No one has ascended into heaven but he who descended from heaven, the Son of man." (John 3:13). Jesus had been abiding in heaven, before he descended. Jesus finally ascended back into heaven (Luke 24:50-53, Acts 1:9-11).

Most of us die, then enter heaven or hell (no earthly-body acension). Rather the Bible says:

"to be absent from the bodily is to be present with the Lord" (2Corinthians 5:8).

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Spiritual Israelite noted:

<no one has ever gone to heaven>

Spiritual Israelite noted:

<no one has ever gone into heaven>
John 3:13 αναβεβηκεν = "ascended" (into heaven)

o When Jesus returned to heaven he ascended (Luke 24:50-53, Acts 1:9-11).

o Most of us die, then enter heaven or hell (no acension).

You're not addressing what I said. Jesus was in heaven before He came to the earth. Do you understand that? He is God and man at the same time. He specifically said that no one but Him had been in heaven before what He said in John 3:13. So, how could Elijah and Enoch have been there before that? It's not possible. And, do you understand that Jesus was talking about the third heaven/paradise? It's not possible that Elijah and Enoch went there or else what Jesus said in John 3:13 wouldn't be true.

 

[William Barton]

Jesus teaches us that taken is another word for dying

Mathew 24
39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.

Luke 17
34 I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed; one will be taken and the other left. 35 Two women will be grinding grain together; one will be taken and the other left.” [36] [e]

37 “Where, Lord?” they asked.

He replied, “Where there is a dead body, there the vultures will gather.”

o. When Jesus comes in the sky and catches up believers (to remove them from the coming battleground) that will be the rapture.

o. When Jesus subsequently comes with his mighty angels, those who were not raptured (rather are left) risk becoming vulture food (vultures love flesh).

It's in the Book.

 

[RLT63]

You're not addressing what I said. Jesus was in heaven before He came to the earth. Do you understand that? He is God and man at the same time. He specifically said that no one but Him had been in heaven before what He said in John 3:13. So, how could Elijah and Enoch have been there before that? It's not possible. And, do you understand that Jesus was talking about the third heaven/paradise? It's not possible that Elijah and Enoch went there or else what Jesus said in John 3:13 wouldn't be true.

Where did they go then?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Where did they go then?

I would assume to the first heaven (the sky) and then they were brought down to some other location on earth and later died. Hebrews 11:13 indicates that all of those of faith previously mentioned, which included Enoch, had died. And, in order to not contradict John 3:13, we have to assume that Elijah later died as well.

 

[ewq1938]

Because we are not appointed unto wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9)

We (the endtimes Church) are appointed to wrath (Rev 12:12-17)

 

[William Barton]

You're not addressing what I said. Jesus was in heaven before He came to the earth. Do you understand that? He is God and man at the same time. He specifically said that no one but Him had been in heaven before what He said in John 3:13. So, how could Elijah and Enoch have been there before that? It's not possibl

Spiritual Israelite noted:

<no one but [Jesus] had been in heaven>

IMO:

Jesus said no one but himself had *ascended* to heaven (in his/her living body, John 3:13).

The Apostle Paul *visited* heaven (2Corinthians 12:2).

 

[Dan Clarkston]

We (the endtimes Church) are appointed to wrath (Rev 12:12-17)

I see so your belief is God lied in 1 Thessalonians 5:9

No, YOU are appointed unto wrath, the devil's wrath - according to your faith be it done unto you according to Jesus (Matthew 9:29) based on the fact the you shall reap what you sow (Gal 6:7,8)

If you believe the devil will be defeating you and will rule over you then this is what you shall get. Enjoy!

 

[Dan Clarkston]

Jesus said no one but himself had *ascended* to heaven (in his/her living body, John 3:13).

That was true up unto the time Jesus said that. Now that men can be born again and washed in the Blood of Jesus - they go in to the presence of the Father then when they croak

Philippians 1:23
For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better

2 Corinthians 5:8
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

The Apostle Paul *visited* heaven (2 Corinthians 12:2).

No, Paul said he could not tell if he had left his body to go to Heaven of if he was still in his body

The Lord does not have to take someone out of their body in order to given them a vision.

Based on Paul's own word there is no way to tell whether he actually went to Heaven or if you remained in his body and had a vision.

 

[ewq1938]

I see so your belief is God lied in 1 Thessalonians 5:9

God does not lie.

No, YOU are appointed unto wrath, the devil's wrath - according to your faith be it done unto you according to Jesus (Matthew 9:29) based on the fact the you shall reap what you sow (Gal 6:7,8)

All the church alive at the time will be subjected to the wrath of satan according to Rev.

If you believe the devil will be defeating you and will rule over you then this is what you shall get. Enjoy!

There's only two choices at that time:

1. Suffer satan's wrath during the trib.
2. Join satan and choose Apostasy/falling away.

 

[Dan Clarkston]

God does not lie.

But you indicate you believe 1 Thessalonians 5:9 is false.

All the church alive at the time will be subjected to the wrath of satan according to Rev.

This does not include those that have been taken in the catching away of the Body of Christ (rapture)

Feel free to reject the catching away remain here so you can experience the wrath of satan.

There's only two choices at that time:

1. Suffer satan's wrath during the trib.
2. Join satan and choose Apostasy/falling away.

The old devil deceived you out of the other option that you did not mention.

According to your faith it will be done unto you

When the future gets here the smart ones will look down upon thee and will proclaim, "Sure am glad I didn't believe like those poor souls who go left behind refusing to believe the whole counsel of the Lord... it really sucks to be them!"

 

[amigo de christo]

You and I have shown him that verse several times before and he is not even honest enough to address it. Any honest person can see that Enoch was one of "these people" who "died", but this guy can't even acknowledge that. We have many people on this forum who are not interested in objectively and honestly searching for the truth in scripture. They just believe whatever they want to believe. It's truly unbelievable.

wanna know what i find so unbeleivable ,
How many who even lip the name of JESUS now follow a harlots love , her inclusive god satan ,
and run to a peace plan of anti christ .
IF i had not the knowledge of the why this is , i would have passed out cold .
OH but i know why it is . You see many have always loved lies , loved twisted scriptures ,
loved omitting things JESUS said , paul and other apostels said .
THEY DID NOT LOVE HIM and they DID NOT KNOW HIM .
And though HE SEnt sheep to correct them , THEY WOULD NOT HEED .
SO REPROBATION of minds has set in now . And all , ALL not in the lambs book of life
will bow to the ecumeincal whore and her harlots inclusive love , and her fathers ecumeincal int efaith plan of anti christ .
BUT rest assured , THE SHEEP DARN SURE WONT . WE DIE BEFORE WE DO . hear it . HEAR IT .
i had rather be dead than to sit under that wicked harlot and her anti christ interfiath JESUS CHRIST denying peace plan .

 

[Dan Clarkston]

wanna know what i find so unbeleivable ,
How many who even lip the name of JESUS now follow a harlots love , her inclusive god satan ,
and run to a peace plan of anti christ .
IF i had not the knowledge of the why this is , i would have passed out cold .
OH but i know why it is . You see many have always loved lies , loved twisted scriptures ,
loved omitting things JESUS said , paul and other apostels said .
THEY DID NOT LOVE HIM and they DID NOT KNOW HIM .
And though HE SEnt sheep to correct them , THEY WOULD NOT HEED .
SO REPROBATION of minds has set in now . And all , ALL not in the lambs book of life
will bow to the ecumeincal whore and her harlots inclusive love , and her fathers ecumeincal int efaith plan of anti christ .
BUT rest assured , THE SHEEP DARN SURE WONT . WE DIE BEFORE WE DO . hear it . HEAR IT .
i had rather be dead than to sit under that wicked harlot and her anti christ interfiath JESUS CHRIST denying peace plan .

You've identified the problem and have expounded on that.

So WHEN are you going to share what people should be doing instead of following ecumenicalism?

 

[William Barton]

Dan Clarkston said:

<they go into the Presence of the Father when they die>

Exodus 33:20 says:
<...no man can see Me and live>

 

[ewq1938]

But you indicate you believe 1 Thessalonians 5:9 is false.

No, your understanding of it is false. We are not appointed to God's wrath but we are appointed to satan's wrath.

This does not include those that have been taken in the catching away of the Body of Christ (rapture)

Feel free to reject the catching away remain here so you can experience the wrath of satan.

The church will face satan's wrath. The only way around it if one is alive is to commit Apostasy. The rapture is right after the trib has ended.

The old devil deceived you out of the other option that you did not mention.

According to your faith it will be done unto you

When the future gets here the smart ones will look down upon thee and will proclaim, "Sure am glad I didn't believe like those poor souls who go left behind refusing to believe the whole counsel of the Lord... it really sucks to be them!"

If you have chosen the other path/rapture, sobeit.

 

[Dan Clarkston]

Exodus 33:20 says:
<...no man can see Me and live>

Yes, written back before man had opportunity to be born again being washed in the Blood of Jesus and being filled with the Holy Spirit. You fundamentally misunderstand the new birth and the New Covenant in general.

If we take what you are claiming seriously, then this means we are to believe that what Paul wrote was not under the influence of the Holy Spirit, but was instead doctrines of demons (lies)

Do you really believe Paul lied in these passages?

Philippians 1:23
For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better

2 Corinthians 5:8
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Paul is clearly saying what the Lord told him to write by the leading of the Holy Spirit... so I'm going to be in the presence of the Lord in Heaven when I leave my body

Under the New Covenant when any person dies they either go to hell to spend eternity with the devil and his demons being tortured in the fire for all eternity - or if a person is born again and in good standing with the Lord then they go to presence of the Lord in Heaven when they croak or if they are taken in the rapture which is pre-wrath (not pre-trib)

No, your understanding of it is false. We are not appointed to God's wrath but we are appointed to satan's wrath.

I see so the "god" you serve is powerless to protect you from the big bad devil? That's really sad man.

If you desire to experience satan's wrath then feel free to lay down and allow the devil to walk all over you. I'm sure the devil would enjoy devouring you since this is what he does to those that allow him to come in.

1 Thessalonians 5:9 clearly states: "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ."

You are adding in to scripture something God never said.
God never said "we are appointed to satan's wrath" as you are not getting that from God's Word. The devil told you that.

If you do not submit yourself to the Lord and resist the devil then he doesn't have to leave you and will be all up in your life daily. According to your faith it shall be done unto you.

James 4:7,8
Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

The church will face satan's wrath.

Enjoy the wrath of the devil then.

You seem to have a lot of faith in the devil going on over there.

If you have chosen the other path/rapture, sobeit.

I choose God's promises over the devil's deception.

 

[Earburner]

But, they were not taken up to the third heaven/paradise where Jesus is or else Jesus wouldn't have said this....

John 3:13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.

Jesus made no exceptions here. No one, including Enoch and Elijah, had ever gone to heaven up to that point except for Jesus Himself who came from heaven, as in the third heaven/paradise.

I agree 100%
And yes, John 3:13 is the scripture for that factual truth.
13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but [except] he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.