Free Will

[PinSeeker]

<sigh>


"That's what they are called, "moslems"

No, Muslims. <smile> They are actually very offended at being called 'moslems,' as they used to be quite some time ago... back in the dark ages, so to speak...​

PinSeeker: A man cannot change his own heart from stone to flesh
"No, God does that."

Ah! Maybe you're not so far away from the truth... <smile>​

"Man just decides whether they will submit themselves to the Lord to cooperate with Him or to refuse to walk with the Lord and remain lost."

Hmmm, well, man certainly makes a decision, but... <smile> ...what it depends on ... what ~ Who, actually ~ enables him to come to that decision, through what means, is the issue. The way you say this, what you mean by this... flies in the face of (not an exhaustive list):​

• what Paul says in Romans 9:16 ~ "it..." (being one of God's elect) "...depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, Who has mercy"
• what Paul says in Ephesians 1:1-14, specifically ~ "He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world... In love He predestined us for adoption to Himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of His will... In Him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of Him Who works all things according to the counsel of His will..."
• what Paul says in Ephesians 2:4-10 ~ "God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ⁠ ~ by grace you have been saved⁠ ~ and raised us up with Him and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages He might show the immeasurable riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God..."
• what Peter says in 1 Peter 1:3-5 ~ "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to His great mercy, He has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time."
• what John says in 1 John 4:19 ~ "We love because He first loved us."

Grace and peace to all.

 

[Bombastic]

Oh, dear, the saying is, if anybody doesn't have a theological PhD, pick a theological fight with a Calvinist because they'll school ya for free.
And so, that saying goes beyond legend or myth and is substantiated in this very thread.
Why is it that some men dive deeper? And some men don't? Why is it that some go beyond basic reading and comprehension into apologetics, theology, etc.? And some don't? Why is it that some learn the original ancient languages? And some don't?
I appreciate the zeal often demonstrated by new converts, new to surface education, shallow waters.
But often the deep calls to the deep, and damage control has to be done; the very zeal of a new convert that takes it upon themselves to rush forth often becomes the obstacle to orthodoxy.
We need young men to charge forward against the gates of Hades. But not at the expense of orthodoxy.

Psalm 148. In the King James Version (KJV), Psalm 148:7 declares: "Praise the LORD from the earth, ye dragons, and all deeps."

Jonah - The Right Prophet - Isaiah.school

Jonah – The Right Prophet Defending the Prophet’s Heart and MessageThe question often arises: Was the Prophet Jonah uncompassionate? Some modern readers view his reluctance and blunt delivery as evidence of a hard heart. Yet Scripture itself provides the proper lens. Consider Psalm 139:22, “I...

isaiah.school

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No, he's paying attention to what the Lord said.

You should try it sometime! View attachment 86787

Exactly what I would expect a child to say. At least you get free will correct. Seemingly not much else, though.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Why do you ask me if I am what Jesus prayed we would become?

Answer the question I asked of you. Because, yes, you are speaking against Christ who prayed that we would be One with Him.

It's not talking about all of us being One as God. It's talking about us being one in terms of unity together. Wow, you really are some kind of cult member. Can you answer the question for all to see? Please make it clear that you believe you are God and that's why you said "I am". Don't be afraid to let everyone know who you think you are like you did when you claimed you are the one Paul is writing about in 2 Corinthians 12:2-4.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Oh, dear, the saying is, if anybody doesn't have a theological PhD, pick a theological fight with a Calvinist because they'll school ya for free.

LOL. Says the guy whose Calvinist doctrine is being destroyed in this thread.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

In a few threads I’ve read I have noticed that a few folk on here have been falsely taught that mankind has no free will and so they use their free will that God gave them and decided to believe that. Oh the irony

They are mistaken (WRONG). If they accepted what God says in His Word they would know that we are created in God’s Image and as such we have free will just like the Lord does. To say one does not have free will is to say God did not actually make man in His Image which is accusing God of not telling the Truth which is how we know the false doctrine of man not having free will came from the devil.

Here’s a passage they cannot explain away, and when they try to deceive others in to believing this passage is a lie the devil somehow snuck in to God’s Word when Jesus wasn’t looking (or some other goofy excuse) then we know right up front that they have been ensnared by the enemy in to being in opposition to what the Lord says in His Word.

Romans 6:16
Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Notice this passage is clearly saying “to whom YOU obey” indicating very clearly that we are the ones deciding to either walk in sin and be separated from the Lord, or to walk in obedience to the Lord and remain in right standing with the Lord.

This is very simple, straight forward, and easy to understand and yet they refuse to accept the plain reading of scripture.

An unsaved person has no "free will" in th esense that in and of themselves they cannot and will not choose Jesus as saxior.

Romans 8 makes that abundantly clear as well as John 1, Ephesians and .

1 Corinthians 1:18
For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Romans 8:8
So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God

Ephesians 1:4
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

John 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

As humans we can make choices as to what to eat, wear. drive, marry . work etc. But as to an ability to choose God inand of our self- it is impossible.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Your definition of "literal" God has called "image." Which then is actually "literal"--the kingdom of God, or this world where "all is vanity?"

Your view and understanding is sooo upside down and backwards!

What do the scriptures actually say? I have quoted it for you.

You go ahead and keep living in your own world where time doesn't exist and the rest of us will live in this world where time exists. Okay, buddy?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Oh, I got the video too. Because that is what this is--it is what was written even before the world began.

So, me knowing that I am One with Christ and God "today" (as Jesus told the thief on the cross)--that is "blasphemy" to you?! Well, it is not according to Christ. Which is rather anti-Christ of you--you calling the kettle black!

You come across that you are claiming to be God. Here's your chance to clarify if that is not correct.. So, do you claim to be God or not? Yes or no?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

<sigh>


"Faith is not any assurance. Faith in Christ is TRUST. God does not give you this Trust (faith) .....>He requires it from you, to save you."

Okay, once more... <chuckles> These are God's words not mine:​

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"Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen." (Hebrews 11:1, English Standard Version)​

How many times do I have to tell you that you don't understand what that verse means? And, you noticeably don't even bother to address what I show you about how the word faith is used in scripture. You are blinded by your false Calvinist doctrine. Your eyes are glazed over so that you can't see that God holds all people responsible to put their faith and trust in Him and in Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior. God does not do that for anyone. Faith is our confidence and trust in God.

Hebrews 3:14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end,

Do you have any idea of what this verse is saying? Whose confidence is it talking about? Our confidence. But, you say we have no faith, confidence or trust of our own. You contradict the entire Bible with your false doctrine.

​

We absolutely hope for the things spoken of, and we don't see the things we are convicted of. That's us, hoping and not seeing. But the assurance has to be given to us by... something... outside of us... we have to receive it. We trust in the Lord because we have been and are assured ~ by the Lord ~ that we are His, that our sins are forgiven, that we have eternal life.​

God does not force us to have assurance. Your attempts to turn people into robots are nothing more than a complete joke.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

"Ah, yes. The "general call" to repentance and belief and offer of salvation that goes out to everyone, but somehow can only be answered by relatively few."

Two points here...​

​

First, the use of the word "can" is problematic, here, as I have said.​

As you have wrongly said. Nothing you say makes any sense whatsoever. Not a single thing. You have no clue whatsoever about how salvation works. None. God offers salvation to all people. That is what is portrayed in the parable in Matthew 22:1-13. You have no understanding of that at all. You think Jesus bashes down the doors of people's hearts and lets Himself in. That's not how it works. You think God forces Himself upon people, but He does not. This thread is about free will and all people have free will and no one has any excuse for choosing to rebel against God (Romans 1:18-21). You give people an excuse with your false doctrine that says people are not able to repent and believe unless God makes them repent and believe.

The issue is not woodenly whether they "can" or "can't" (anyone can say anything or do anything in this sense), but whether they will or will not. The only sense in which we can use "can" and/or "can't" with regard to answering this call is the sense in which we might say, "I am not a violent person, so I just can't hit another person." In the wooden sense I could, because I am physically able. But I could never do that because that's not the kind of person.​

​

Second ~ and this is twofold ~ none of us would disagree that everyone is called to repentance and belief, to acceptance of Jesus as his or her Savior. But when anywhere is Scripture we hear of God's call, it is limited in scope, most clearly in Romans 9, where we read, "What if God, desiring to show His wrath and to make known His power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of His glory for vessels of mercy, which He has prepared beforehand for glory ~ even us whom He has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?" (Romans 9:22-24) There can be no mistaking, from what Paul says here, that this call of God he is speaking of only goes out to the "vessels of mercy" ~ those who He has mercy on, as just a couple of sentences ago he said "(God) has mercy on whomever He wills, and He hardens whomever He wills" (Romans 9:18) ~ and not to... He withholds this call from... the "vessels of wrath." This call is undeniably limited in scope.​

God wants to have mercy on all people (Romans 11:30-32), but you don't take that into account here because of your cherry picking method of interpreting scripture. You think that passage is talking about vessels of wrath and vessels of mercy being prepared before the foundation of the world, but that is not at all what that passage is about. It's about God deciding to bring salvation not just to the Jews but to the Gentiles as well. The Jews could not comprehend that, but God says no one can question Him about that. You take almost every verse of the Bible you come across out of context.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

An unsaved person has no "free will" in th esense that in and of themselves they cannot and will not choose Jesus as saxior.

Romans 8 makes that abundantly clear as well as John 1, Ephesians and .

1 Corinthians 1:18
For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Romans 8:8
So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God

Ephesians 1:4
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

John 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

As humans we can make choices as to what to eat, wear. drive, marry . work etc. But as to an ability to choose God inand of our self- it is impossible.

Total nonsense. Your false doctrine gives people an excuse for rebelling against God, but Paul said no one has any excuse for that. Why do you ignore so much scripture? You think God draws people randomly to Christ. That's not what John 6 is saying. He drew those who already chose to believe Moses and in Him to Christ. After that is when Jesus said He would draw all people to Himself (John 12:32) and He does that through the preaching of the gospel through the power of the Holy Spirit. But, people can resist the Holy Spirit (Acts 7:51).

Stop trying to give people an excuse for what they have no excuse for doing (suppressing the truth and rebelling against God).

Your doctrine blatantly contradicts the following passage.

Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things. 24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

"If it's not man's responsibility to believe, then it makes no sense for Jesus to marvel at how much faith the centurion had or to marvel at the unbelief of the Nazarenes He was talking to. The faith someone had or lack thereof would never have surprised Jesus at all if faith was given to people rather than people using their God given free will to decide whether to believe or not."

References: 1) "When Jesus heard this, he marveled and said to those who followed him, “Truly, I tell you, with no one in Israel have I found such faith" (Matthew 8:10) and 2) "When Jesus heard these things, He marveled at him, and turning to the crowd that followed Him, said, “I tell you, not even in Israel have I found such faith" (Luke 7:9). Obviously, He was not previously oblivious to the fact that they had faith at all but rather a much greater faith ~ "such faith" ~ than any others even in Israel He had previously encountered. And, obviously, He said what He said there for the benefit of His hearers... including us.​

​

Regarding His amazement at the unbelief of the Nazarenes in Mark 6, it is similar, in the sense that even though He "laid his hands on a few sick people and healed them" ~ gave them signs to believe, they still did not. Again, the obvious comparison is in relation to others... His amazement was not merely that they did not believe but that their unbelief was stronger than others He had encountered.​

​

Finally, this belief is not a responsibility, it is an ability... and an act of the will. Our responsibility, as Christians, is to love God (first, of course, and above all) and to love our neighbor as ourselves. And this love is far, far more than just a warm fuzzy feeling, it is a call to action. 'Responsibility'... You know this: the root word of 'responsibility' is 'respond.' In doing these things... and this is a rhetorical question, really... what are we responding to? <smile> Remember what John says: "We love because He first loved us" (1 John 4:19). <smile> And then... and this brings us back to the topic being discussed... why? What is it in us, that is now in us that was not there before, that causes us to respond in that way? <smile> Hint: It starts with an 'h.' And/or an 's.' And either way, it is put into us by God. <smile>​

Grace and peace to all.

What a joke this response is. You talk about responsibility and then finish by basically saying we are robots. Robots can't have responsibilty. What an absolute joke Calvinism is.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

"Not that I've seen. Where did you give your understanding of total depravity and total inability? Give me a post number."

I've done so several times... It's easier to first explain what it is not, and from that we can understand what it is. In a recent thread in the Christian Apologetics forum ("The taken and the left"), last Wednesday in a conversation with 1stCenturyLady, I said this in Post number 120:​

​

"...the concept of total depravity, as John Calvin used the term, is very misunderstood. Many think it means human beings are as bad as they can possibly be, but that's very different from what Calvin said... different from how he defined it. It does not mean we are as bad as we can possibly be; it means that every part of a person is affected by sin, and thus sinful. This is the natural human condition... we are dead in our sinful state, which we inherit from our first parents, Adam and Eve. So, again, total depravity... yes, even unbelievers can do really good things, maybe even a lot of really good things, but everything we (including believers) do is... tainted, in some way, by sin... not completely sinless or righteous, so, unless we do them in and through Christ, they are unacceptable to God."​

Grace and peace to all.

I never said that total depravity and total inability had anything to do with not being able to do anything good at all. What it means in Calvinism includes that people have the total inability to repent and believe apart from regeneration and that is absolutely false. That gives people an excuse for not repenting and believing, but they have none (Romans 1:18-21).

By the way, what's your deal in your latest posts with not showing who you are quoting?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

"Scripture teaches that God wants all people to be saved and offers salvation to all people (1 Timothy 2:3-6, 1 Timothy 4:10, Matthew 22:1-13, Titus 2:11), so we can safely assume that God makes it possible for all people to be saved."

Absolutely. Makes it possible, yes. I've affirmed this many, many times..​

Please stop being so insincere. You do not believe that it's possible for all people to be saved because you believe that God alone chose who would be saved before the foundation of the world. In your doctrine it was never possible for everyone else who God didn't choose to be saved before the foundation of the world to ever be saved. Why do you act otherwise? It's like you know that the implications of your doctrine make God look really bad, so you try to hide it.

. We know that Jesus's sacrifice was sufficient for all to be saved. And all could repent and believe on Christ (even though I am ~ and Calvin and Calvinists are ~ accused, over and over again of saying otherwise, which is absolutely untrue).​

This is incredibly disingenuous. You do NOT believe that all can/could repent and believe on Christ. Why are you so dishonest about this? You know you don't believe that anyone who God did not choose to be saved before the foundation of the world can repent and believe on Christ. Why act otherwise?

But we also know what not all people will be saved (there are vessels of wrath as well as vessels of mercy)... and that, at the final Judgment there will be many on Jesus's left as well as on His right, and the former will... depart (Matthew 25:31-46)... So, in that sense, if Jesus died for all, then why will... some... not be saved?​

Because He does not force anyone to accept what He did for all people. Why is that so hard for you to understand? God gives people the choice to accept or deny what Christ did for them.

2 Peter 2:1 But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction.

 

[ScottA]

It's not talking about all of us being One as God. It's talking about us being one in terms of unity together. Wow, you really are some kind of cult member. Can you answer the question for all to see? Please make it clear that you believe you are God and that's why you said "I am". Don't be afraid to let everyone know who you think you are like you did when you claimed you are the one Paul is writing about in 2 Corinthians 12:2-4.

You don't know what you ask...and still you have not answered me, but expect me to entertain you with what you would like to hear.

You reveal yourself.

But for those looking on who might be tempted to ask the same question--I will answer this way: Was Paul right to say, "For me, to live is Christ"--is Paul therefore God, because Christ is?

Again, you don't know what you are asking, let alone what is true.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You don't know what you ask...and still you have not answered me, but expect me to entertain you with what you would like to hear.

You reveal yourself.

But for those looking on who might be tempted to ask the same question--I will answer this way: Was Paul right to say, "For me, to live is Christ"--is Paul therefore God, because Christ is?

Again, you don't know what you are asking, let alone what is true.

Your evasiveness says it all about you. You have something to hide. You can't answer simple, straightforward questions. I'll try one more time and word it a little differently this time. Do you believe that you are God in the same sense that Jesus is? Yes or no?

 

[ScottA]

You go ahead and keep living in your own world where time doesn't exist and the rest of us will live in this world where time exists. Okay, buddy?

No...you don't get to include anyone with you. But okay--you have spoken for yourself--it is enough. So let it be bound and written.

 

[ScottA]

You come across that you are claiming to be God. Here's your chance to clarify if that is not correct.. So, do you claim to be God or not? Yes or no?

I have answered you.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I have answered you.

No, you haven't. What do you have to hide? Are you part of a cult? Just answer the simple question. Do you believe you are God or not? Yes or no?

 

[ScottA]

Your evasiveness says it all about you. You have something to hide. You can't answer simple, straightforward questions. I'll try one more time and word it a little differently this time. Do you believe that you are God in the same sense that Jesus is? Yes or no?

Your response here is not unlike, those accusing Christ and His responding often with a question or addressing a seemingly different subject.

So, yes, that is the same "evasiveness" I also have in me--for He is in me, and it is Him you have been accusing, for I have not spoke to you of what is my own, but what is His...as it was foretold, and is written that it should occur.

But you? You have revealed yourself.