Free Will

[Spiritual Israelite]

That indeed has been what has been believed.

For good reason. It's because it lines up with other scripture.

But translation can be argued until we all die as it has been since Christ came 2,000 years ago. So, whose to say? I am.

You are no one when it comes to having any authority on what the word of God says.

Which I say knowing it goes against what most have believed for these past 2,000 years. Which, since you said it, I have repeated--yes, 2000 years. But you are referring to the time of His revealing--as if He were not "the same yesterday, today, and forever."

I am not saying that. He is God and man at the same time. As a man, He was slain almost 2,000 years ago. That's a fact. It's also a fact that the book of life has been written from/since the foundation of the world, so that is what Revelation 13:8 is referring to, just like Revelation 17:8. It's called interpreting scripture with scripture, which I know is not a concept that you understand.

 

[ScottA]

You are no one when it comes to having any authority on what the word of God says.

That is my unique qualification, just as it has been with many of God's choosing...and therefore, I am.

When will you start seeing these things? God knows.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

That is my unique qualification, just as it has been with many of God's choosing...and therefore, I am.

This is blasphemous. Only God is "I am". You are extremely delusional.

When will you start seeing these things? God knows.

When will you realize you are deceived? Hopefully before it's too late.

 

[ScottA]

I am not saying that. He is God and man at the same time. As a man, He was slain almost 2,000 years ago. That's a fact. It's also a fact that the book of life has been written from/since the foundation of the world, so that is what Revelation 13:8 is referring to, just like Revelation 17:8. It's called interpreting scripture with scripture, which I know is not a concept that you understand.

That is a fact of history--worldly history.

And then (of course) you go on to accuse me. How typical.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

That is a fact of history--worldly history.

That is what Revelation 13:8 is referring to. But, you're off in your own world where time doesn't exist, so you don't get it. Jesus is God, but He is also a man who interacts with people and does things in the realm of time and he was slain in the realm of time almost 2,000 years ago. The book of life has been written from/since the foundation of the world just as Revelation 17:8 says as well. Again, you have no concept of interpreting scripture with scripture.

And then (of course) you go on to accuse me. How typical.

For good reason.

 

[ScottA]

This is blasphemous. Only God is "I am". You are extremely delusional.


When will you realize you are deceived? Hopefully before it's too late.

What do the scriptures say--what did Jesus pray--"Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are"--or not?

Why do you join yourself to the likes of those who crucified Him--by making the same accusations--do you not know that it is "what comes out of the mouth, this defiles a man?"

 

[ScottA]

That is what Revelation 13:8 is referring to. But, you're off in your own world where time doesn't exist, so you don't get it. Jesus is God, but He is also a man who interacts with people and does things in the realm of time and he was slain in the realm of time almost 2,000 years ago. The book of life has been written from/since the foundation of the world just as Revelation 17:8 says as well. Again, you have no concept of interpreting scripture with scripture.


For good reason.

Ah...no--no, that is not what Revelation 13:8 is referring to. It is speaking of what is written in heaven.

And here you are again calling good evil and evil good, because I am "off in" and speaking of, and according to, the heavenly places of Christ.

As for Christ crucified 2,000 years ago--it was just a revealing--after which He returned to the place from which He came, saying "follow Me"--not "get used to this world, its your forever home. But as for me, I'm leaving."

But I am not here to argue or convince you, or condemn you as you seem set on doing to me--for no good reason. Believe what you will. So be it.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Ah...no--no, that is not what Revelation 13:8 is referring to. It is speaking of what is written in heaven.

And here you are again calling good evil and evil good, because I am "off in" and speaking of, and according to, the heavenly places of Christ.

Do you believe you exist at all in the realm of time? You said "I am" and don't even know how blasphemous that is. You are 100% delusional, but, of course, those who are delusional are never aware of it.

As for Christ crucified 2,000 years ago--it was just a revealing--after which He returned to the place from which He came, saying "follow Me"--not "get used to this world, its your forever home. But as for me, I'm leaving."

LOL. You can't be for real. Do you deny that He was literally, physically crucified almost 2,000 years ago?

But I am not here to argue or convince you, or condemn you as you have you seem set on doing to me--for no good reason. Believe what you will. So be it.

I'm not condemning you to hell, I'm exposing you as a false teacher. But, you are ignorant and don't really know what you're doing.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

What do the scriptures say--what did Jesus pray--"Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are"--or not?

Are you claiming to be God?

Why do you join yourself to the likes of those who crucified Him--by making the same accusations--do you not know that it is "what comes out of the mouth, this defiles a man?"

I'm making no accusations towards Jesus. Stop lying.

 

[Dan Clarkston]

Are you claiming to be God?

No, he's paying attention to what the Lord said.

You should try it sometime!

 

[ScottA]

Do you believe you exist at all in the realm of time? You said "I am" and don't even know how blasphemous that is. You are 100% delusional, but, of course, those who are delusional are never aware of it.

Oh, I got the video too. Because that is what this is--it is what was written even before the world began.

So, me knowing that I am One with Christ and God "today" (as Jesus told the thief on the cross)--that is "blasphemy" to you?! Well, it is not according to Christ. Which is rather anti-Christ of you--you calling the kettle black!

 

[ScottA]

LOL. You can't be for real. Do you deny that He was literally, physically crucified almost 2,000 years ago?

Your definition of "literal" God has called "image." Which then is actually "literal"--the kingdom of God, or this world where "all is vanity?"

Your view and understanding is sooo upside down and backwards!

What do the scriptures actually say? I have quoted it for you.

 

[ScottA]

I'm not condemning you to hell, I'm exposing you as a false teacher. But, you are ignorant and don't really know what you're doing.

No...you are exposing yourself. That is the purpose of this world--the reading of each person's Will (after the fact). And yes, "ignorant and don't really know what you're doing" is also revealed.

 

[ScottA]

Are you claiming to be God?


I'm making no accusations towards Jesus. Stop lying.

Why do you ask me if I am what Jesus prayed we would become?

Answer the question I asked of you. Because, yes, you are speaking against Christ who prayed that we would be One with Him.

 

[PinSeeker]

<sigh>


"Faith is not any assurance. Faith in Christ is TRUST. God does not give you this Trust (faith) .....>He requires it from you, to save you."

Okay, once more... <chuckles> These are God's words not mine:​

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"Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen." (Hebrews 11:1, English Standard Version)​

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We absolutely hope for the things spoken of, and we don't see the things we are convicted of. That's us, hoping and not seeing. But the assurance has to be given to us by... something... outside of us... we have to receive it. We trust in the Lord because we have been and are assured ~ by the Lord ~ that we are His, that our sins are forgiven, that we have eternal life.​

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And faith is not a prerequisite for salvation. It is the vehicle through which we are saved... "by (God's) grace we are saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God..." (Ephesians 2:8). And this is not just a once-and-for-all thing, because, well, "by God’s power (we) are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time" (1 Peter 1:5). Our faith sustained in us ~ and strengthened in us ~ by the Holy Spirit, Who "keeps us from stumbling" (Jude 24).​

Grace and peace to all.

 

[PinSeeker]

"Ah, yes. The "general call" to repentance and belief and offer of salvation that goes out to everyone, but somehow can only be answered by relatively few."

Two points here...​

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First, the use of the word "can" is problematic, here, as I have said. The issue is not woodenly whether they "can" or "can't" (anyone can say anything or do anything in this sense), but whether they will or will not. The only sense in which we can use "can" and/or "can't" with regard to answering this call is the sense in which we might say, "I am not a violent person, so I just can't hit another person." In the wooden sense I could, because I am physically able. But I could never do that because that's not the kind of person.​

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Second ~ and this is twofold ~ none of us would disagree that everyone is called to repentance and belief, to acceptance of Jesus as his or her Savior. But when anywhere is Scripture we hear of God's call, it is limited in scope, most clearly in Romans 9, where we read, "What if God, desiring to show His wrath and to make known His power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of His glory for vessels of mercy, which He has prepared beforehand for glory ~ even us whom He has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?" (Romans 9:22-24) There can be no mistaking, from what Paul says here, that this call of God he is speaking of only goes out to the "vessels of mercy" ~ those who He has mercy on, as just a couple of sentences ago he said "(God) has mercy on whomever He wills, and He hardens whomever He wills" (Romans 9:18) ~ and not to... He withholds this call from... the "vessels of wrath." This call is undeniably limited in scope.​

Grace and peace to all.

 

[PinSeeker]

"Not that I've seen. Where did you give your understanding of total depravity and total inability? Give me a post number."

I've done so several times... It's easier to first explain what it is not, and from that we can understand what it is. In a recent thread in the Christian Apologetics forum ("The taken and the left"), last Wednesday in a conversation with 1stCenturyLady, I said this in Post number 120:​

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"...the concept of total depravity, as John Calvin used the term, is very misunderstood. Many think it means human beings are as bad as they can possibly be, but that's very different from what Calvin said... different from how he defined it. It does not mean we are as bad as we can possibly be; it means that every part of a person is affected by sin, and thus sinful. This is the natural human condition... we are dead in our sinful state, which we inherit from our first parents, Adam and Eve. So, again, total depravity... yes, even unbelievers can do really good things, maybe even a lot of really good things, but everything we (including believers) do is... tainted, in some way, by sin... not completely sinless or righteous, so, unless we do them in and through Christ, they are unacceptable to God."​

Grace and peace to all.

 

[PinSeeker]

"If it's not man's responsibility to believe, then it makes no sense for Jesus to marvel at how much faith the centurion had or to marvel at the unbelief of the Nazarenes He was talking to. The faith someone had or lack thereof would never have surprised Jesus at all if faith was given to people rather than people using their God given free will to decide whether to believe or not."

References: 1) "When Jesus heard this, he marveled and said to those who followed him, “Truly, I tell you, with no one in Israel have I found such faith" (Matthew 8:10) and 2) "When Jesus heard these things, He marveled at him, and turning to the crowd that followed Him, said, “I tell you, not even in Israel have I found such faith" (Luke 7:9). Obviously, He was not previously oblivious to the fact that they had faith at all but rather a much greater faith ~ "such faith" ~ than any others even in Israel He had previously encountered. And, obviously, He said what He said there for the benefit of His hearers... including us.​

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Regarding His amazement at the unbelief of the Nazarenes in Mark 6, it is similar, in the sense that even though He "laid his hands on a few sick people and healed them" ~ gave them signs to believe, they still did not. Again, the obvious comparison is in relation to others... His amazement was not merely that they did not believe but that their unbelief was stronger than others He had encountered.​

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Finally, this belief is not a responsibility, it is an ability... and an act of the will. Our responsibility, as Christians, is to love God (first, of course, and above all) and to love our neighbor as ourselves. And this love is far, far more than just a warm fuzzy feeling, it is a call to action. 'Responsibility'... You know this: the root word of 'responsibility' is 'respond.' In doing these things... and this is a rhetorical question, really... what are we responding to? <smile> Remember what John says: "We love because He first loved us" (1 John 4:19). <smile> And then... and this brings us back to the topic being discussed... why? What is it in us, that is now in us that was not there before, that causes us to respond in that way? <smile> Hint: It starts with an 'h.' And/or an 's.' And either way, it is put into us by God. <smile>​

Grace and peace to all.

 

[PinSeeker]

"The context (of Luke 18:27) is in relation to Jesus using hyperbole to illustrate how difficult it is for a rich man who seemingly has everything he needs to enter the kingdom of God. The question was not asked in relation to all people. Rich people tend to not realize that all the riches in the world don't take away one's need to repent and ask for the forgiveness of their sins."

Everyone... every believer, anyway; others think it foolishness... but we all, to some extent, think we can do something to enter... can make himself (or herself) deserving of entering... into the kingdom of God. The rich young ruler has far more reason than anyone else to trust in his own ability and deservedness... because he has money, power, influence, authority over others... all those things and more... of God's great salvation. So, as Jesus says, "it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God." And the lesson is for all of us. We all know this.​

Grace and peace to all.

 

[PinSeeker]

"Scripture teaches that God wants all people to be saved and offers salvation to all people (1 Timothy 2:3-6, 1 Timothy 4:10, Matthew 22:1-13, Titus 2:11), so we can safely assume that God makes it possible for all people to be saved."

Absolutely. Makes it possible, yes. I've affirmed this many, many times... We know that Jesus's sacrifice was sufficient for all to be saved. And all could repent and believe on Christ (even though I am ~ and Calvin and Calvinists are ~ accused, over and over again of saying otherwise, which is absolutely untrue). But we also know what not all people will be saved (there are vessels of wrath as well as vessels of mercy)... and that, at the final Judgment there will be many on Jesus's left as well as on His right, and the former will... depart (Matthew 25:31-46)... So, in that sense, if Jesus died for all, then why will... some... not be saved? I mean, some do, of course, but I don't think there's anyone in this conversation that could be called a universalist...​

Grace and peace to all.