The Bible doesn't instruct to pray to Jesus

[marks]

See then that you walk circumspectly, not as fools but as wise, redeeming the time, because the days are evil.

Meditate on this.

 

[Anchorite]

We agree that there is nothing wrong with praying to the Father.

A pattern emerges in Scripture in which everyone is essentially saying "Do what Jesus did." and Jesus prayed only to the Father and explicitly taught his disciples to do the same. … when did the first instruction of "Pray to Jesus" appear in church history?

Do you believe that Jesus is God?

Since martyr Stephen prayed to Jesus, do you do the same?

Are you a Jehovah’s Witness?

 

[David in NJ]

Meditate on this.

meditate on that AND this = submitting to one another in the fear of God.

 

[Runningman]

But is it wrong to talk to Jesus (like Stephen did)?

In the appropriate circumstances I have no objection to speaking to Jesus, but in regards to prayer, I follow Jesus' instruction and example of praying to the Father in Jesus' name.

 

[Runningman]

Do you believe that Jesus is God?

No I do not.

Since martyr Stephen prayed to Jesus, do you do the same?

That has not been determined from the text.

Are you a Jehovah’s Witness?

I am not.

 

[Wick Stick]

Thank you for your comments. I agree that the Masoretes did not remove vowels from the text. The original Hebrew Scriptures were written with consonants, and the vowel points (niqqud) were added many centuries later to preserve the traditional reading of Hebrew.

"To preserve the traditional reading of the Hebrew" is a very politically correct way of saying it. "To preserve the Pharisee reading of the Hebrew," comes closer to the truth. "To prevent the Christian reading of the Hebrew" might be most honest.

The original Hebrew scriptures were (are) often ambiguous. There's no capitalization. There are no spaces. There are, rarely, alternate forms of letters to let you know where one word ends and another begins. And, as mentioned, there are multiple vowel sounds that can be added to each letter, changing the meaning of the word.

The reader is expected to "rightly divide" the wall-of-text into separate words and then choose the correct meaning of each word, and add the correct vowel sounds to it. That's difficult, and leads to people reading the text with diverse meanings.

By the end of the 1st century, the early church and unrepentant Jews were at loggerheads over the meaning of many passages. These Jews (calling themselves Pharisees) sought to exclude any reading that pointed out Jesus as Messiah. Spearheaded by Rabbi Akiva, they began to produce Midrash - extensive commentary on the meaning of the Scriptures, placed in the margins of the Scriptures themselves. This practice continued for 8 centuries.

Adding niqqud and spaces to the text made the extensive commentary unnecessary. All the divisions of the text into words were already done. All the choosing of meanings for each word, also already done. No ambiguity. Only the meaning that the Pharisees want you to see.

You probably already know this, but... I enjoy talking about this subject.

 

[Wick Stick]

your post #44 says: ''Iesous'

Who's lying marks?

Uh... you. You definitely straw-manned his argument by re-stating it differently than what he said.

The question mark is actually the give-away.

 

[David in NJ]

Uh... you. You definitely straw-manned his argument by re-stating it differently than what he said.

The question mark is actually the give-away.

now you just falsely accused = spiritual suicide

You need some sound Holy Spirit advice:

a.) Never accuse without having clear evidence = in this case, of such which your heart desires

b.) There was no "straw-man" but a very CLEAR & PRECISE question which you also sinned against via false accusation

c.) The LORD Himself used such questioning as an EXAMPLE for us to follow

So now i ask you from the Holy Spirit of Truth = Did the angel speak Greek to Mary?

 

[marks]

"To preserve the traditional reading of the Hebrew" is a very politically correct way of saying it. "To preserve the Pharisee reading of the Hebrew," comes closer to the truth. "To prevent the Christian reading of the Hebrew" might be most honest.

The original Hebrew scriptures were (are) often ambiguous. There's no capitalization. There are no spaces. There are, rarely, alternate forms of letters to let you know where one word ends and another begins. And, as mentioned, there are multiple vowel sounds that can be added to each letter, changing the meaning of the word.

The reader is expected to "rightly divide" the wall-of-text into separate words and then choose the correct meaning of each word, and add the correct vowel sounds to it. That's difficult, and leads to people reading the text with diverse meanings.

By the end of the 1st century, the early church and unrepentant Jews were at loggerheads over the meaning of many passages. These Jews (calling themselves Pharisees) sought to exclude any reading that pointed out Jesus as Messiah. Spearheaded by Rabbi Akiva, they began to produce Midrash - extensive commentary on the meaning of the Scriptures, placed in the margins of the Scriptures themselves. This practice continued for 8 centuries.

Adding niqqud and spaces to the text made the extensive commentary unnecessary. All the divisions of the text into words were already done. All the choosing of meanings for each word, also already done. No ambiguity. Only the meaning that the Pharisees want you to see.

You probably already know this, but... I enjoy talking about this subject.

What are your thoughts on the LXX?

Much love!

 

[Wrangler]

There's the heart of the matter.

Notice that the ones who promote not praying to Jesus are the ones who don't believe Jesus' deity. There's the agenda.

Much love!

It’s more the opposite. Those who deny the Biblical fact that there is no verse in Scripture to pray to Jesus have the agenda.

 

[Wrangler]

In the appropriate circumstances I have no objection to speaking to Jesus, but in regards to prayer, I follow Jesus' instruction and example of praying to the Father in Jesus' name.

Odd that this is not everyone’s position. I follow Jesus but do t do what he says regarding to whom I Should pray. How does that make sense?

 

[marks]

The original Hebrew scriptures were (are) often ambiguous.

Would it be more accurate to say that the native speakers understood, but that as ancient Hebrew is a dead language, that certainty has been lost?

Much love!

 

[marks]

It’s more the opposite. Those who deny the Biblical fact that there is no verse in Scripture to pray to Jesus have the agenda.

As you wish.

Just to clarify for you, I make no such denial that the Bible does not tell us specifically to pray to Jesus, in such words. There are only examples of people praying to Jesus.

Much love!

 

[Wick Stick]

You need some sound Holy Spirit advice:

a.) Never accuse without having clear evidence = in this case, of such which your heart desires

b.) There was no "straw-man" but a very CLEAR & PRECISE question which you also sinned against via false accusation

You asked 'who is lying?' between you and marks. Here's my advice for you:

a.) Don't ask if you don't want the answer, buddy!

And the evidence? It's abundantly clear. You've repeated the logical fallacy in this post:

So now i ask you from the Holy Spirit of Truth = Did the angel speak Greek to Mary?

The answer to the question (which is not marks' question, but a strawman you've re-framed his statement into) is that I don't know. Nobody else who's alive now knows, including you.

 

[David in NJ]

You asked 'who is lying?' between you and marks. Here's my advice for you:

a.) Don't ask if you don't want the answer, buddy!

And the evidence? It's abundantly clear. You've repeated the logical fallacy in this post:

The answer to the question (which is not marks' question, but a strawman you've re-framed his statement into) is that I don't know. Nobody else who's alive now knows, including you.

So you refuse to answer the Holy Spirit Truth question = check

And you continue on with false accusations = check

Calling the inspiration of the Holy Spirit in us who trust, "logical fallacy" is even more spiritual suicide

You have an opportunity here to turn around and walk in the Light of Christ here.

The Holy Spirit of Truth, who GOD placed in me, is asking you again:

Did the angel speak Greek to Mary?

JESUS Says to you as well: "let your ‘Yes’ be ‘Yes,’ and your ‘No,’ ‘No.’
For whatever is more than these is from the evil one."

 

[Wick Stick]

What are your thoughts on the LXX?

Much love!

It's better than the Masoretic.

It was produced by Christians. It's better when your Holy book is produced by your people, rather than the enemy of your people. It's centuries earlier, as well.

It isn't perfect. Translating it into Greek has the same effect as adding niqqud - it removes the ambiguity from the text, and forces only one meaning on it. That's not a good thing.

I believe the ambiguity of the Hebrew is a feature, rather than a flaw. We're not meant to narrow the text down to the one meaning the author intended. Where there's ambiguity, the author probably intended for it to be ambiguous. The authors were smart.

 

[Wick Stick]

Would it be more accurate to say that the native speakers understood, but that as ancient Hebrew is a dead language, that certainty has been lost?

Certainty wasn't intended.

There's a way of writing Hebrew without being ambiguous. Where it is ambiguous, the authors meant for it to be so.

I think the reason has something to do with inspiration. The reader is meant to take the meaning that is inspired to them.

2nd Timothy 3:16 can be translated as either:
All Scripture is inspired by God, or
All Scription is divine inspiration

Which meaning is correct? Both, I think

 

[PS95]

We agree that there is nothing wrong with praying to the Father. I would say that support for praying to the Father only is pretty strong. Aside from the direct instruction to do so, when Jesus prayed he also only ever prayed to the Father. After that, throughout the rest of the New Testament, the apostles stated to imitate Jesus.

Jesus only prayed to His Father in heaven. I agree! Why would Jesus pray to Himself?

Peter said "follow in His steps." in 1 Peter 2:21.

Jesus said his actions are to be imitated "For I have given you an example, that you should do just as I have done for you." in John 13:13-15. "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love" in John 15:10.

Paul said imitate Christ in 1 Cor. 11:1. To have the mind of Jesus in Phil. 2:5.

John said to walk as Jesus walked in 1 John 2:6.

A pattern emerges in Scripture in which everyone is essentially saying "Do what Jesus did." and Jesus prayed only to the Father and explicitly taught his disciples to do the same. I understand your perspective and for the sake of discussion, let's assume that there were a few instances in which Jesus was addressed after his resurrection. We're still left with addressing the instruction Jesus left for his followers and the broadly-taught teachings to imitate Jesus, so from my perspective, the force of this means that what Jesus taught to do and the examples he provided carry the greater weight. So my question is, if you're saying do something different than what Jesus taught and did, then why should we do what you say, and when did the first instruction of "Pray to Jesus" appear in church history?

Yes, I agree we are to imitate Jesus. So, what you are saying then is to do only what He did, but not do what He said? He said-
Ask Me anything in my name and I will do it. Jo 14:14
The oldest manuscripts support ME. but as I said take it out like KJV does- it still begs the question- Does Jesus answer prayers? He said. He does. Are you saying I should only pray to the Father and He will contact Jesus and tells Him to answer me? What is that about..?
For comparison sake- see translations here. I did not know you were KJV only. What do you do with the Comma?

John 14:14 Parallel: If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

I have given you other examples. You wont see what you don't want to see. Your mind is made up. I don't know how to help a man who refuses that Jesus had a heavenly pre-existence. He said, I CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN. John 6:38 and yet you deny His words!
John the Baptist also said it--
John 3-
30“He must increase, but I must decrease.
31“He who comes from above is above all, he who is of the earth is from the earth and speaks of the earth. He who comes from heaven is above all. 32“What He has seen and heard, of that He testifies; and no one receives His testimony. 33“He who has received His testimony has set his seal to this, that God is true. 34“For He whom God has sent speaks the words of God; for He gives the Spirit without measure. 35“The Father loves the Son and has given all things into His hand. 36“He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

The preceding verse to John 14:14 reveal something important that you are ignoring- Not only does Jesus again say He answers prayers but that in The Son the Father is glorified. wow.
13“Whatever you ask in My name, that will I do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
John 14;13

 

[marks]

It was produced by Christians. It's better when your Holy book is produced by your people, rather than the enemy of your people. It's centuries earlier, as well.

Wasn't it translated BC?

 

[PS95]

There's the heart of the matter.

Notice that the ones who promote not praying to Jesus are the ones who don't believe Jesus' deity. There's the agenda.

Much love!

It's a stranglehold.